-said he expects ben to be gone, because he'll want more than the $12 million Joe's willing to pay

-the best move would be to sign-and-trade ben to atlanta for al harrington, because harrington will be the better player by the end of his contract

-forget about Bonzi, someone will offer $8-9 million for him, and the pistons cant match that.

-The best player the pistons can hope for at the MLE is Jared Jeffries.

Damn and Chris is a smart guy too.

I think those are all valid possibilities, but I certainly think there will be more options than those. I personally think that if Atlanta wants to do a S&T for Ben, Joe will squeeze out Childress or Smith as well as Harrington, even without leverage. I don't have a huge problem with this. Of course, this will leave us with a huge vacancy at C, another reason that the Darko trade was made either too early or too late.
Jared Jeffries gets us absolutely none of the things that this team needs to compete for the title. There are certainly more creative things that Joe could do. If we are planning on the MLE for him, I would much rather spend it on Marcus Banks.

this news sucks. right now, i think our best hope is loyalty from ben. devin harris/dampier.... i dont know. i dont think im really going to put to much time thinking about possible sign and trades until it becomes apparant he wont be a piston. too much of a drastic change to beable to wrap my mind around it right now.

Why would Ben Wallace want to go to Atlanta?? Couldn't they offer him the max outright, without our help?? If that is the case, we'd have to accept their handout charity in return. They don't even have a 2007 first round draft pick to give us.

Atlanta would not offer ben that kind of salary on top of what they'd pay al harrington, they'd want to dump salary too.

And if Ben just wants money, he may as well go to atlanta if theyre willing to pay it.




What about a Dallas sign and trade? You have to figure Cuban would pay Ben what he wants and Avery Johnson and Ben would get along really well. I know some will cringe here but something like a Devin Harris and Erick Dampier package. Dampier might be soft, underachieving and overpaid, but he is a true center and probably has more offensive game than Ben does.

I'd rather let Ben go for nothing than set dallas up to be the 2007 NBA champion, which is what that lopsided deal would do.

Dampier has $50+ million left on his deal. Only a complete idiot would want him, even if dallas offered him for FREE....



Could/Would Rasheed Wallace play center??

Yes, let's play sheed at center, when at 225lbs he already gives up 30+lbs to most power forwards.... he might last 2 weeks, if that.

if so, i hope we're lucky enough to do a creative sign and trade. there is virtually nobody on the FA market really worth much IMO.

as for wells.....IF we want him, i think we would be able to get him for slightly lower than his market value- MLE is not that much of a longshot IMO. he and sheed are friends and we provide a legit shot for him to win. obviously he wants to get paid, but those factors work in our favor IMO.

if we lose ben, sign and trade or just stright up lose him....i'm not saying we should have a firesale, but i would explore further roster moves. because we would be a long way from a title contender if we're going to just SUBTRACT from a team that clearly needs some additions to just be able to keep up with the other true contenders.

IF Ben leaves I'm going to be pissed. It's all about avoid the luxury tax and that's a fucking joke.

That said I can't see why Atlanta is a legit option. Their ownership situation is fucking mind-blowing. The team is reasonably well stocked with young talent, but not enough to make a deep playoff run.

I firmly believe that Chicago is the only option out there for Ben. They have the cap space, the young talent and the style that suits him.

They could trade us Chandler for Ben and then spend their cap space on someone else to complete that team.

I was worried about Toronto, but after they traded for Nesterovic I stopped. No point signing Ben now, since they'd tie up all their available money in bigs and they need a PG in a big way.

So, Chicago it is IMO.

Although a Ben for Bonzi sign and trade could get interesting, depending on the salary Bonzi is looking for.

What a fucking shitty off-season this could be.

I wish Mark Cuban owned this team. Yes, he's a loudmouth some (most?) of the time, but you know he's willing to spend the money needed to be a contender. It seems Davidson isn't.

please correct me if i'm missing something- but didn't cuban let steve nash go because he didn't feel he was worth what the suns offered him?

if my memory serves me, cuban did not want to be paying nash as much as he would have been once he hit 35, 36 years old which the suns will now be doing.

so if cuban sees the sense in being fiscally responsible, and not overpaying an aging star, what is so bad about us taking the same approach?

i honestly think this approach is the smart way- ben IMO displayed VERY worrying signs of aging and/or loss of passion and intensity for the game. so why on earth should we pay him more than we think he's worth at this phase in his career?

as much as i love ben, i would hate to committ a ton of money to him and then be stuck with a ben wallace who isn't half the player he used to be. THAT is why we're not looking to comitt more than 4 years to him- because he REALLY showed some signs of wear and tear this year.

i think it's only smart to take this approach with ben, particularly given his play this year and the way the nba is trying to change the way the game is played. someone like ben is not as valuable as he would have been 2 years ago. especially when considering he's not playing near as well as he was back then to BEGIN with.

factor in the need for a more offensive minded player....and we would be silly to dive into a longterm bigtime deal with him without carefully weighing the consequences of such a deal.

maybe i'm missing something. i mean that sincerely and not sarcastically.

cuban let nash walk #1 he had younger, perhaps better players that could step in for nash. money was a factor, but it was definitly secondary to the fact that harris and terry were waiting in the wings.

and not wanting to pay ben a ton of money when he might be broken down is bullshit. if want to contend, we have to have ben. if that means we're fucked 4 years from now, that should be ok.

im thinking the S&T for tyson chandler is the most likely situation right now (maybe its 50/50 to us resigning ben). chicago does that, and then they can still sign al harrington, and maybe another center. harrington/thomas/ben/ and then maybe nazr mahamid would be pretty good. and chandler's salary would fit perfectly into our structure, allowing us to grab an MLE player.

plus the spin factor would be ok, pistons could say theyre replacing an old, offensively inept, problem player with a bigger, younger, former #4 (?) pick.

in fact, if chicago wasnt in our division, i'd say this trade was almost a lock to happen.

he also let Finley walk.

And if you would have tyson chandler on this team, you belong nowhere near any discussion about fiscal responsibility. What a fantastic waste of cap space that dude is.

Fuck, I'd rather let Ben walk straight-up than allow them to dump that piece of overpriced garbage on us. He's a golorified 6th man getting paid like an all-star.


This is hilarious, some of you guys actually WANT this team to go to cap hell just to prove davidson is willing to do it.

HW - Yes, you're correct that Cuban refused to match the offer Phoenix gave Nash.

BUT, in that situation Cuban offered a lot of money over a lot of years and Phoenix just offered a little more.

He told Nash to take the Suns offer.

I don't see a similar situation happening here.

And while I agree with the need for a change, I don't believe Ben is the guy to move.

That guy is Sheed.

Sheed + Davis for Jalen, Frye and Collins or Nate.

That's something I'd jump at.

The best thing about it? Cleans up the payroll (Jalen's expiring is massive while Davis' isn't) and buys us some more time while getting some cheap young talent.

Kstat - letting Finely walk isn't how I'd put it.

Cuban still has to pay his salary (minus what Mike makes from the Spurs)

He just saved the luxury tax payments.

I think almost everyone here would do sheed for frye and another young player.

I just wonder if Zeke would do it, or if dolan would allow him.

but that's just it IMO- i don't know that we CAN truly contend the way things are now. i'm not even thinking 4 years from now, i'm talking next year. sure, we can win 55 games and get to the 2nd or 3rd round probably.

sure, we still have a great core and can add a player or 2. but can this team keep up with other teams in the league, with all the offensive firepower they have and the way the league is basically banning defense? can we TRULY win a title just by adding a guy with the MLE? i don't know at this point.

seriously- ben is not half the player he was even in 2004. and we need him to be that. he has been the heart and soul of our team and i love him. but if he can't even be that same player, and if the things he does best are being de-emphasized by the league office, does he truly have the same value he once had?

i'm not sure he does. and if we're honest with ourselves, we have to recognise that chicago and cleveland are RAPIDLY catching us up and very possibly could overtake us THIS YEAR with a nice veteran addition or 2. and that's just in our own division let's remember. particularly chicago.

i'm not saying the sky is falling, just that a storm may be brewing and we should think about preparing for some changing weather conditions. we have to look at the bigger picture and think what this team and this league will look like in the next couple of years. know what i'm saying?

Kstat - letting Finely walk isn't how I'd put it.

Cuban still has to pay his salary (minus what Mike makes from the Spurs)

He just saved the luxury tax payments.


Exactly.

He's paying finley to play AGAINST him because he didnt want to pay the extra salary to have him on his team.

but that's just it IMO- i don't know that we CAN truly contend the way things are now. i'm not even thinking 4 years from now, i'm talking next year. sure, we can win 55 games and get to the 2nd or 3rd round probably.

sure, we still have a great core and can add a player or 2. but can this team keep up with other teams in the league, with all the offensive firepower they have and the way the league is basically banning defense? can we TRULY win a title just by adding a guy with the MLE? i don't know at this point.



Um, we just came off a 64-win season. This team is still a contender.

Should the Spurs dump half their team too?

Add an inside scorer off the bench and a speedier PG and you have a team that can make another run next year.

At this point, rebuilding would just be stupid.

HW - that's why I want us to deal Sheed and Davis to NY for Frye, Jalen and Nate or Collins

Hell, do Taylor and Frye and Collins for Sheed, if they wish.

Either way we clear more money under the tax, add a young big that could break out and add a young guard that's cheap.

With the Jalen trade we don't even have to use the MLE.

Ben/Frye
Dice/Maxiell
Prince/Jalen/Amir
Rip/Delfino/Acker
Billups/Nate or Collins/Blalock

Add a minimum big and we're done.

With the Taylor trade:

Ben/Frye/Davis
Dice/Maxiell/Taylor
Prince/Amir
Rip/Delfino/Acker
Billups/Collins/Blalock

Either way we clear a ton of money off our books and are deeper than we are right now.

Why wouldn't Dolan and Zeke do it?

Is Frye/Collins (or Frye/Nate) the answer to their problems? No!

Sheed could get them to the playoffs, which is all they seem to care about.

not a fan of chandler myself. he's the ultimate talent tease around. perhaps someday he'll put it all together but right now he's mr. inconsistency IMO.

yeah of course i would do a frye + someone else for sheed deal. but you're right- i don't think dolan would let isiah make any more wholesale changes to that roster.

and on the other hand, i don't think joe is prepared to break up our top 6 this year. next year, more likely but he seems to want to give them anotehr shot.

that could change if ben darts in FA though.

FWIW- magette is rumoured to still be on the block.

Magette would be damn good if he could stay in 1 piece.

Not that we have anything to trade LA outside of Delfino...and they have no need for sheed.

Inside scoring is not a need IMO. Dice and Sheed posting up solves that issue and something needs to be done to make them post up.

A MLE PG like Banks, Claxton or even Cassell (for 2 years) solves our G problems.

They wing problems? Delfino + Amir + someone like Dupree should be enough, considering that if we're going to play zone some of the time we could get by with Sheed or Maxiell playing some "SF"

And regarding Cuban paying Finley to play for the opposition:

Would you pay Finley double his season salary? Is he really worth that much when you have Jason Terry, Marquis Daniels, Devin Harris, Adrian Griffin and Josh Howard all playing some minutes at SG?

Of course not.

There is a difference between spending money and being a fucking idiot.

Oh, and just say no to jalen.

I love U-M with a passion but even I can see he's the kind of player that you can't win shit with. Jalen's all about Jalen 1st and team 2nd.

Inside scoring is not a need IMO. Dice and Sheed posting up solves that issue and something needs to be done to make them post up.



Yes, one guy that shoots %80 fadaways, and the other that's so rail-thin that udonis haslem can push him out to the 3-point line if he tries hard enough.

Sheed will never be a serious threat in the paint. He has the height but not nearly enough muscle or bulk.

We need either a post-froward or a slashing guard. Period. We need a guy that can go inside and score to open things up for our jumpshooters.


A MLE PG like Banks, Claxton or even Cassell (for 2 years) solves our G problems.

Claxton would be nice, but he's not leaving a major role on a good team to be a 10-15 mpg backup here.

Banks would be a titanic waste of money at the MLE, and cassell is nobody's backup. Just ask him.





And regarding Cuban paying Finley to play for the opposition:

Would you pay Finley double his season salary? Is he really worth that much when you have Jason Terry, Marquis Daniels, Devin Harris, Adrian Griffin and Josh Howard all playing some minutes at SG?

Of course not.

There is a difference between spending money and being a fucking idiot.

This isnt about being an idiot. It's apparently about spending just to show you have the balls to do it. Nobody seems to care what we use the cash on, they just want us to spend it so Mr D can prove to all of us that he cares about winning.

Oh, and just say no to jalen.

I love U-M with a passion but even I can see he's the kind of player that you can't win shit with. Jalen's all about Jalen 1st and team 2nd.

shoot me for making the comparison, but isn't that what we've been saying all season long about Fatoine Walker? [smilie=sayitaintso:

Oh, and just say no to jalen.

I love U-M with a passion but even I can see he's the kind of player that you can't win shit with. Jalen's all about Jalen 1st and team 2nd.

shoot me for making the comparison, but isn't that what we've been saying all season long about Fatoine Walker? [smilie=sayitaintso:

If we had two mega-stars to make people like that look good, I wouldnt be as concerned.

Antoine rode them to a title. The best thing he did was stay out of their way.

Claxton plays for a good team? Who does he play for?

And 15 minutes? So the guy isn't going to get any time at SG and Billups isn't going to get any time at SG either?

Ok.

And I get your point about the spending. I'd just appreciate it if when we're going back and forth you didn't play it that way.

I'm not part of the "Davidson must spend more or else he's cheap" camp.

I want him to spend wisely and if that means we go over the tax slightly to get or keep a good player so be it.

Oh, and just say no to jalen.

I love U-M with a passion but even I can see he's the kind of player that you can't win shit with. Jalen's all about Jalen 1st and team 2nd.
shoot me for making the comparison, but isn't that what we've been saying all season long about Fatoine Walker? [smilie=sayitaintso:
If we had two mega-stars to make people like that look good, I wouldnt be as concerned.

Antoine rode them to a title. The best thing he did was stay out of their way.

true, but Fatoine was a starter. Jalen would come in and play bench minutes.

NOT that i'm endorsing a move to get Jalen (i'm not sure he addresses our need for a slasher/scorer), but i'm just saying that if Fatoine could help the team win (and he did play well enough to make a difference at times), Jalen could help too.

Jalen always makes everyone love him initially because he can score the ball.

But over time, you see why he cant stay in the same place more than 2-3 years without becoming the most hated player on the team.

He's selfish, and it usually winds up infecting the team and costing wins.

Well, if he could manage to behave for 1 season I'd take that.

That's all we need him for.

That's probably all the gas he has left in the tank, too. He's pretty much what finley is to the spurs.

This isnt about being an idiot. It's apparently about spending just to show you have the balls to do it. Nobody seems to care what we use the cash on, they just want us to spend it so Mr D can prove to all of us that he cares about winning.

your right, thats exactly what i've been saying. i said signing mo and dd was great, because they cost us 5 million AND they did nothing.

joe needs to do that more.

i never said that the pistons need to sign impact players or be fiscally responsible. never. if i did, i retract it.

bill davidson needs to prove his love for me by spending more than the knicks. and eveyrone he signs needs to not play.

thats been my point all along. thanks for being such a fucking genius.

Name one guy they could sign with the MLE that would be an impact player.

Just one.

Harrington and wells will both get offered more than the MLE, so who else is left?

Jared Jeffires? Marcus Banks?

Please.

Claxton? There's one guy. He'd make an impact off the bench for us.

But, if we did Sheed (and Davis) to NY trade for Taylor (or Jalen), Frye and Collins or Nate we wouldn't need to use the MLE.

Joe should assist Zeke one last time.

I think we're better off using half the MLE on guys like jeffries or Banks, and if they dont take it, oh well.

This summer is a whole lot better in the trade market, with serious impact guys like Pierce and Iverson on the block.

But how do we get an impact player via trade?

We only really have Davis and the Orlando pick to offer, unless you want to start moving one of the "Super 6"

But how do we get an impact player via trade?

We only really have Davis and the Orlando pick to offer, unless you want to start moving one of the "Super 6"

If Joe's willing to mess with the starting 5, I'm %100 positive he can go out and get pierce or iverson without gutting the team.

I've seen joe turn a lot less into more.

I'd rather he not touch the orlando pick ,though.

So if Ben goes you wanna trade another starter?

Or if Ben stays you wanna trade a starter?

I can't remember because I'm reading 3 different threads at once

(sorry, my bad)

So if Ben goes you wanna trade another starter?

Or if Ben stays you wanna trade a starter?

I can't remember because I'm reading 3 different threads at once

(sorry, my bad)


Ben has nothing to do with it.

Either way, if we can get Iverson or pierce, we do it. If that means dealing Rip or Sheed or both, so be it. It would make everyone else on the team a little better in the process.

I'm just saying the trade market is a lot more open than the FA market right now in terms of impact players.

I think Cassell is a real option if we over spend on years. LAC is only offering a 1 yr deal. We should offer him a 3 year MLE deal with options for a fourth year and even a 5th. 15 million over 3 years is better than 1 year of 6-8 million, and not knowing if the market will ever pay him MLE money again.

The trade market for role players is where we should look.

Dealing a bargain like Rip is foolish IMO.

Every other SG you can compare him to makes more money.

Sheed? Yeah, fuck him off.

I've given 2 deals that save us a ton of fucking problems.

But Pierce or Iverson? No!

Straight up, No!

Iverson's contract kills us.

Pierce? I doubt Boston does any deal you could suggest with Rip and Sheed

a 3-year deal to sam cassell?

why would we want a 40-year old PG with an ego problem?

Nobody should offer him more than 1 year, because at 37 you never know how much gas is left in the tank.

And as much as I'd like to have him as a 3rd guard, I doubt Sam would tolerate that.

Not to mention he doesnt even attempt to defend anymore.

I don't want to deal rip either, but you can't deny that if we got iverson or pierce in a deal for him, our chances of winning a title skyrocket. They're both much better players, and both are capable of being the go-to scorer we've been lacking.

In that case, yes it is fine to overpay because we wouldnt need anything else.

I think on some levels a super star would help but there are only a handful that would help us, and none of them are available. Iverson, Pierce, Kobe types would kill the franchise. We need a player who can get calls but not because he is shooting 40 times a game.

If we are going to sell off a Sheed or Ben or less likely Rip we need to get back a guy who can start and a reserve. We need depth more than a superstar. I would be in favor of just about any deal if it gives us back 2 or more rotation ready players.

Iverson and Pierce would not kill this franchise. Come on. It might not work sure, but I dont see how it becomes some sort of disaster.

Pierce has 2 years left on his deal, and Iverson has 3. Neither of them are tied up long-term.

There are selfish guys in the league, but I dont think either of them is one.

I also think theyre both at the satge of their careers where they'd sacrifice to win a championship.

All Cassell does is win, he is a winner more than a whiner.

I know he is old that is why I said we have to overpay, sometimes you need to do that, the only issue is the second year. First year he is a bargain, second if he breaks down is a weakness, but in the third he is expiring so in reality you are only taking a 1 yr leap.

Cassell wins, but he also starts.

Kstat, you may be right on some level but if you trade 2 starters for 1 and as a result move Dice to the Starting lineup. Where does the bench scoring come from?

We don't know LH is coming back, Delk isn't, Delfino is still a big question mark, Maxiell and Amir are not proven, and DD isn't a scorere. I don't think AI or Pierce with the MLE and BAE are any better off than dealing Ben for Chandler and Noiconi/Deng or TE.

LMMFAO - Pierce has 2 years left.

Great, so let's trade Rip and Sheed to Boston for Pierce and filler.

Name the filler Kstat - put together a legit trade package that we can break down and see how it effects the roster.

Iverson is still 100% NO from me. No fucking way should we take his contract. It's insane. And having him and Billups as a backcourt?

Talk about being small.

Who comes with Iverson in the deal? Or is it a 2 for 1 deal?

If you want people to explore these scenarios then you have to lay it out there.

You've seen mine (Sheed for Taylor, Frye and Collins or Nate)

Let's see your's

Billups and Iverson wouldnt be any smaller than snow and iverson.

And in case you didn't notice, the entire NBA is going small. Look at Dallas.

Rip and Sheed (both local philly guys) for Iverson works straight-up and philly would take it in a heartbeat.

I hate to say it, because Rip is my faovrite Pistons, but the fact is Iverson would make us a better team than a rip/sheed combo.

I dont think Pierce carries the same value by himself, so I'd say Sheed and Rip for Pierce and jefferson, but that would be a lot less likely to work out.

If there were a way for us to get pierce and not give up both Sheed and Rip, i'd much rather do that.

But Iverson? I'd do that. I'd hate to give up that level of value, but Iverson is at a level neither rip nor sheed can ever hope to be.

He can also get to the line 20+ times in a given game, which would give us an answer to wade in that dept.

Of course, if we dont sign ben, getting iverson winds up being kinda pointless, because we wouldnt have anybody up front aside from dice.

So you are proposing Sheed + Rip for Iverson?

Iverson makes $18,281,250

Combined Sheed and Rip make $ 20,337,500

So you do save us almost $2,000,000

But...

No! Hell No! Fuck No! That's insane.

Starters:

Ben (re-signed for $12mil)
Dice
Prince
Iverson
Billups

Bench:

Maxiell, Delfino, MLE, Amir, BAE, Davis, Hunter, Acker, Blalock

And if we don't use the BAE we probably don't pay the tax!

Not a bad job Kstat - but that bench is weak.

And who are you planning to sign with the MLE?

And since the Pierce idea isn't complete I can't explore it. Use ESPN's trade machine or the Trade Checker. It's easy.

Pierce does make $15,101,626 but I'm not gonna do the math for you.

Oh shit! I just found out that Pierce is ONLY under contract for next season, then he can opt out!

Great!

Talk about a salary dump. Dealing Rip and Sheed for him would be insane.

I said before Jefferson and pierce works, but even i probably wouldnt do that.

Iverson on the other hand, i'd love to aquire at that cost, assuming we get ben back. We'd be a more dangerous team, plain and simple.

If Dallas can start 2 PGs, so can we.

We'd also have better quickness on the perimeter and other guards wouldnt be able to get into the lane as easily as before.

If Philly is thinking about trading AI and getting Boozer or whatever

WE WOULD NOT NEED TO TRADE 2 ALL STARS


Stop thinking of Even in Quality trades..that shit RARELY happens..

Every trade your hear about you go..LOL @ [TEAM]

If that Happened it would be LOL @ PISTONS

Without knowing contracts: Id only trade Rip and Sheed to Boston for Peirce, Al Jefferson, and Delonte West....and thats just off the Dome @ 4am

I dont want to do that trade btw..not yet atleast

cuban let nash walk #1 he had younger, perhaps better players that could step in for nash. money was a factor, but it was definitly secondary to the fact that harris and terry were waiting in the wings.
Terry wasn't waiting in the wings. Trading for Terry was a reaction to Nash leaving, since they weren't going to rest all their hopes on rookie Harris.