Maybe this thread should wait until we're officially out, but if any of you are feeling like me this morning, that is merely a formality.

So go ahead and have at it, I'll post my suggestions later after I give it some more thought and I'm not so bitter/thinking irrationally.

I will say this, this is where Joe's decision to draft Darko is going to kill us, IMO.

*sound the old bit siren* How nice would it be to be able to build around Rip, Chauncey, Tay & Bosh? *end siren*

Step 1. Fire Flip Saunders.

I'm going to need some time for the rest.

... to be continued.

I'd say get rid of Sheed. He was my current favorite Pistons player but damn his laziness is rubbing off. His attitude is rubbing off. Sorry but hes gotta go.

I found this off scout which is actually from realgm.

http://pistons.realgm.com/articles/166/20060528/it_is_time_f

I like the trade idea but it is highly unrealistic.

What could we get for Sheed? I know there are a lot of teams willing to bit for Sheed considering there arent many decent power forwards.

Next we need to find a bench we can rely on...

i woke up this morning at 5:30am and couldn't fall back asleep because of last night's loss. then, i started having fantasies about trading Sheed for KG and fell back asleep. sadly, i'm not exaggerating.

how do we fix this team? i have no freakin' clue.

do we fire the coach and basically set up the next coach for failure? "a championship or you're fired". for ANYONE who thinks we should dump Flip, i think you must post a replacement coach. yeah, i think Flip messed up a whole bunch of times throughout the playoffs....but realistically, who are you going to bring in that's an upgrade?

do we trade away Ben, since he's been most vocal about Flip? (i'm partially in favor of this....just partially....Ben's offensive liability has hurt us BIG time this playoffs. even if he could hit some damn FT's, he wouldn't have been such a liablity)

do we trade away Sheed, since he hasn't done shit all playoffs long? (i'm in favor of this. as much as i love chanting "Sheeeeed" at the Palace and as much as people talk about him giving the team swagger, he hasn't produced. he hasn't done anything defensively, on the boards, or scoring-wise)

Next we need to find a bench we can rely on...

i was wondering about this as well. does our bench really need fixing? Lindsey Hunter, Tony Delk, Mo Evans, Delfino, Dice, and Davis.

that's really not that bad at all, imo.

Flip finally started using Davis this series and he's played decently. in game 4, he got 3 boards in 7 minutes. Sheed got 5 in 28 minutes.

Delk averaged 8 points a game off the bench during the regular season and barely got any run throughout the playoffs.

adding to the bench doesn't really help unless the coach plays the bench.

I hate getting rid of guys. But Sheed definitely isn't playing up to par. This is when your highest paid guy is supposed to earn his check - in the playoffs. I'm not sure what we could get for him (KG is a wetdream, but a dream nonetheless). You look at bigs coming out in FA. I like Przybilla - legit 7 footer, effective inside scorer, draws fouls like a madman (even if he doesn't shoot them too well), solid defender and rebounder. Oh, and a block machine. He's unhappy with Portland, so I doubt he'll be going back there.

teams like Chicago have much more to offer than us for KG...also KG makes 18 mil...we would have to package at least Sheed and Dice to match it... but i agree, Sheed has done shit in the last couple of games, we need a upgrade at the 4, but i dont see any player become available...right now i have no idea how to fix this team...even guys like RIP who always played better in the playoffs than in the RS, struggeld big time, our whole team performance was very dissapointing...only Lindsey was better than expected if i am honest...this is not the end of the world, the starting 5 proved what they are capable of doing...so i'd say keep em intact and add some pieces...they've earned another shot, we aint gonna get someone like KG for Sheed anyway...also keep Flip if theres no better option out there...hire some kickass assistents who help him make adjustments and help him on the defensiv end...i think thats all we can do...also resign Ben but make sure he has to hit at least 40% of his FTs or he should earn less, cause this is unaccaptable for a basketball player

Edit: i think what we re lacking the most is a guy who can get to the rim at will...it doesnt has to be a Wade/Lebron/Arenas type of superstar who dominates the ball all the time...give me a guy like Devin Harris, Josh Howard, Bonzi Wells... we lack someone like that for years now, the last good slasher we had was Stack unfortunately we had no good shoters at that time...a strong slasher is what this team needs, it opens up the game for your jumpshoters...and we ve got enough of them for sure...

My personal fav..S&T Ben for KG. I don't know the numbers but whatever other non-starter and picks plus a S&T with Ben.

I just don't see now how Dumars can pay Ben the money he's looking for with all the damage he's done. You don't pay a player like he's a leader when he's really not a leader.

Edit: i think what we re lacking the most is a guy who can get to the rim at will...it doesnt has to be a Wade/Lebron/Arenas type of superstar who dominates the ball all the time...give me a guy like Devin Harris, Josh Howard, Bonzi Wells... we lack someone like that for years now, the last good slasher we had was Stack unfortunately we had no good shoters at that time...a strong slasher is what this team needs, it opens up the game for your jumpshoters...and we ve got enough of them for sure...

Agreed. The 2 guys I can think of we might have a chance at in FA are Wells and Harpring. The only problem with Harpring is he is a black hole on defense.

Pierce is always the guy who's name you hear involved in trades when it comes to acquiring an offensive superstar, and now his attitude fits right in.

At #60 draft .... who gives a fuck? He's not gonna play no matter who he is.

Fire assistant coach Ron Harper

Hire Kevin O'Neill to coach the fucking defense

Trade Rasheed Wallace and Maurice Evans to New York for Channing Frye, Nate Robinson and Maurice Taylor.

Re-sign Ben Wallace for 4-years averaging $13,000,000

Re-sign Tony Delk for 2-years using the Bi-Annual Exception

Re-sign Lindsey Hunter for 1-year at the veteran's minimum

Re-sign Alex Acker for 2-years at the minimum

Renounce Kelvin Cato

Roster:

C: Ben Wallace
F: Antonio McDyess
F: Tayshaun Prince
G: Richard Hamilton
G: Chauncey Billups

6: Channing Frye
7: Carlos Delfino
8: Nate Robinson
9: Jason Maxiell
10: Dale Davs
11: Tony Delk
12: Lindsey Hunter
13: Amir Johnson
14: Alex Acker
15: Maurice Taylor

Still have the MLE available and we could buy out Taylor if we found a free agent worth signing. I haven't really checked the free agents list, because I somehow believed we'd be playing until mid fucking June.

Might be a little too young, but I'd rather be young and talented than old, fat and lazy.

*sound the old bit siren* How nice would it be to be able to build around Rip, Chauncey, Tay & Bosh? *end siren*
I wanted Bosh pretty badly. He came to try and win a spot with us, knowing we were already going to draft Darko, knowing he'd initially get less playing time time than he would with the bottom-dwellers having the other top 5 picks.

I was never really on the Darko bandwagon, beyond saying that I didn't think he got a fair shake at playing time.

1) Find a Coach who is a hard ass. Fuck these guys and their fucking feelings. Booo fucking whoooooo he's hard on you. Shut up and play

2) You have to find a way to build the bench though the draft. We keep Dyess, Delk, and Hunter. Maybe we can find some sap to pawn off Evans on, and then you have to get max some PT. Dude can play.

Edit: i think what we re lacking the most is a guy who can get to the rim at will...it doesnt has to be a Wade/Lebron/Arenas type of superstar who dominates the ball all the time...give me a guy like Devin Harris, Josh Howard, Bonzi Wells... we lack someone like that for years now, the last good slasher we had was Stack unfortunately we had no good shoters at that time...a strong slasher is what this team needs, it opens up the game for your jumpshoters...and we ve got enough of them for sure...
Agreed. The 2 guys I can think of we might have a chance at in FA are Wells and Harpring. The only problem with Harpring is he is a black hole on defense.

i agree as well. that type of player is one that we've been lacking for a few years now.

the Mavs have plenty. the Spurs have Parker and Ginobili. the Heat have Wade. our SG is a spot up shooter and our SF is a slower post-up guy.

unfortunately, to get a starting caliber slasher, we need to give up Rip or Tay's spot on the starting roster. do we give up Rip's 20 points a night? or do we give up Tayshaun's do-it-all game?

Question: In a sign-and-trade, can the team only trade the player to be signed-and-traded, or can another player be involved?

Does anybody here feel the biggest problem in this series is that Riley is straight up out-coaching Flipper?

IMO, there's very little wrong with this team. Saunders just came in and fucked everything up.

Oops. Wrong thread. Where's that Fire Flip thread???:confused:

Trade Sheed for another Power Forward. Sign and trade Ben to the Bulls for Gordon and Nocioni. Dump Evans. Sign Pryzbilla and another PG.

i would say theres quite a bit wrong with this team.

1) i agree with gecko. the idea of giving ben a huge deal now is making my stomach turn. granted, he's playing against shaq (and actually doing a pretty good job, i'd say) but his offense has never looked worse. his ft shooting is beyond embarrassing. ben's ft shooting might be knocking all the pistons off their game, its so bad... but still, i dont see how we dont bring ben back. i've always thought he's been a little imature, and now im positive he's a horrible vocal leader, but i think you have to take the good with the bad with ben. he's still an elite big man defender, which you dont just throw away.

2) hermy already mentioned paul pierce. i'll also mention ray allen. i think this team needs a talent infussion. we're a team of good pieces that is great if everyone plays like a team, and we also out work the other team. well, we're not playing like a team (and its hard to maintain that style anyway), and your not going to outwork the other guy forever. sheed is probably the cancer that got us away from the 'going to work' mentality. but oh well, even though sheed has been completely outplayed by walker, you just dont throw him away either. we dont have a ton of assets, but i'd give rip, the orlando pick, any of our picks and young players, if we could bring in pierce or ray allen. (rip has sucked. flip doesnt know how to use him. maybe our next coach would. but its pretty obvious: rip used incorrectly equals him being a mediocre nba player).

3) fire flip. why should we bring him back? its joes job to make sure we have the best coach possible. i dont know who that guy is, but i know its not flip. everyone knows he's been outcoached, how he's fucked up throughout the playoffs, and did jackshit to help us in the regular season (other than getting HCA). but the most noticeable thing i see is a total lack of composure that is rubbing off on the players.

getting to the conferance finals is pretty good. disapointing, but still pretty good. but bringing back this team, we're never going to the finals again. its over if we try that.

Does anybody here feel the biggest problem in this series is that Riley is straight up out-coaching Flipper?

IMO, there's very little wrong with this team. Saunders just came in and fucked everything up.

Oops. Wrong thread. Where's that Fire Flip thread???:confused:

Yeah that's right, the offensive "guru" who's scored 95+ points for years and been at the top of the league in efficiency for years is COMPLETELY at fault for a top that scores 75-80 points a night now. Also, I whole heartedly agree that Pat has hypnotized Wade to abuse our team every possession and to shoot 70%. Last Flip is responsible for the whole team having 47 fouls last night.

Anyway,

I would leave the starting line up in tack. The bench needs to be completely worked over. Dyess and Lindsey stay for sure, I'd say Delk, but Flip doesn't seem to believe. It's time to get the coach the players he wants to come off his bench. Perhaps if the minutes were so long during the season...they might noe look so dead, weak and defenseless.

1. Dump that lazy stoner Rasheed Wallace. I hate his whining and he never shows up when we need him. Dikembe Mutombo and Rasheed Wallace are alumnis of INFU.

2. Dump Richard Hamilton. I'm not a big fan of one-dimensional shooting guards that are matadors on defense. It's time for a more talented and dynamic shooting guard.

3. Fire Flip. He's just not that good of a coach. Unfortunately, he'll probably stay.

4. And for the love of God, just retire already Lindsey.

Question: In a sign-and-trade, can the team only trade the player to be signed-and-traded, or can another player be involved?

You cannot package players with the re-signed player, but you can trade that player FOR multiple players.

we're going to have a rough season next year if we dump our head coach again.

so far, the ONLY names i've seen that i'd consider trading any of the starting five for are: KG, Pierce, and Allen. unfortunately, i don't think any are beyond internet message board speculation.

as for fixing the team.....let's start with this: WHAT IS BROKEN ON THIS TEAM?

for 82 games, nothing was broken. during our 64 win, we were all quite happy with this team. now everything seems to be wrong with the team. 9 games in the playoffs has pretty much doomed the team in many eyes. i'm not saying i disagree, but i'm wondering if we can even answer what's really broken.

i wouldnt say things werent broken during the regular season. its just that winning 64 games, and killing the nba champs twice, shuts up the critics.

but we all saw it.

over reliance on the 3.
over reliance on the starters.
no points in the paint.
poor rebounding.
not enough emphasis on D.
no discipline from the coach.

well all those warts we were willing to overlook before now are killing us. i think a good coach might beable to fix this.

but theres 2 issues)

1) is that coach available

2) is it possible for these prima donas just to go back to being the grinders that made them nba champs?

Trade Rasheed Wallace and Maurice Evans to New York for Channing Frye, Nate Robinson and Maurice Taylor.


Think they'd take Sheed (11.4), DD (3.5), Evans (1.5) for Rose (16.9) and Frye (2.3)?

Then what about RIP and the Orlando pick for Pryz (resigned), Jack and Portland's Pick?

PG Billups/Hunter/Jack
SG Rose/Delfino
SF Prince/Amir
PF Ben/Dyess/Max
C Pryz/Frye

Get Roy/Gay/Morrison with the #4 pick and move Rose to the bench.

Drastic, but I like it.

we're going to have a rough season next year if we dump our head coach again.

so far, the ONLY names i've seen that i'd consider trading any of the starting five for are: KG, Pierce, and Allen. unfortunately, i don't think any are beyond internet message board speculation.

as for fixing the team.....let's start with this: WHAT IS BROKEN ON THIS TEAM?

for 82 games, nothing was broken. during our 64 win, we were all quite happy with this team. now everything seems to be wrong with the team. 9 games in the playoffs has pretty much doomed the team in many eyes. i'm not saying i disagree, but i'm wondering if we can even answer what's really broken.

Not quite accurate. There were several complaints by posters. However, they'd suddenly go on another winning streak then everybody (including me) would sort of grudgingly shelf those complaints. They were:

1) too jump shooting reliant
2) Last in points in the paint (ties in with #1)
3) Getting out-rebounded with alarming regularity
4) inconsistent defensive hustle

As I see it, two or three of the problems are solved by a post presence (something we don't have. Sheed is not a post presence. Ben isn't either, at least not on offense). Ideally the post presence also rebounds (something else Sheed doesn't do).
One temporary solution might be to increase Dice's time significantly, but I don't know if he could handle it. Dice makes a real effort to rebound and at times resembles a cross between Ben/Sheed, but even he I think is too reliant on the long jumper.

My personal fav..S&T Ben for KG. I don't know the numbers but whatever other non-starter and picks plus a S&T with Ben.

I just don't see now how Dumars can pay Ben the money he's looking for with all the damage he's done. You don't pay a player like he's a leader when he's really not a leader.cosigned.

This is as futile as trading for KG, but as long as we're entertaining fantasies:

1. Trade Ben, Sheed, Evans or Delfino, and the Orlando pick for Brand/Maggette. Salaries match almost perfectly. Sheed and Ben's contracts would end sooner than Brand's and Maggette's. They can resign Cassell to a 3 year deal and have a good window. Not to mention the Orlando pick is really necessary to get them to even look at this deal.

Start Brand, Dice, Prince, Rip, and Billups. Our post woes are solved, we have two good jump shooting big men as well. Much improved free throws, and rebounding should actually improve. This is one of the few trades that actually gets us all the pieces we need. A little more height would be nice, but you gotta go with what's available. We can use the MLE and our own guys to fill our the bench.

What about finding a new GM?

1. No bench depth. Last year it cost them and Dumars did not resolve this issue. Maurice Evans was not the answer. As a result the starters play too much during the regular season. Scoring again becomes an issue in the playoffs. Their second round matchup again goes 6+ games tiring out the troops. The only difference this year is that they will lose in the ECF to a healthy Miami Heat team. Will dumars ever improve the bench?

2. Poor drafting. This also contributes to the point 1. Screwed the pooch with darko. Delfino is brutal and plays the same position as Josh Howard, a more highly touted prospect picked later in the same draft. None of his recent draft choices see the floor. Drafted Okur in the second round and could only sign him for 2 years thereby guaranteeing his exit from Detroit. Prince was the only serviceable pick. Where's Rodney White when you need him?

3. Hiring a non-championship calibur coach. There's a reason he didn't win in Minnesota. His rotations are brutal (I'm sick of seeing evans and/or delk or even mcdyess on the floor mid-way through the 4th quarter and in some cases the closing minutes. The 4th quarter is not when you rest players and try out new things).

When the heat score on 15 straight possessions (or so it seemed) it's probably time to move away from the zone especially when you need to force turnovers. If Rip or Lindsey can't guard Wade, why not try Prince? Larry Brown did this last year. Why not give it a shot? There's no reason to have prince guarding Posey (Mr. Spot up shooter) in the 4th quarter. Flip saudners is a bad coach. Pat Riley is abusing poor Flip Saunders. Mike Brown abused poor Flip Saunders.

Joe Dumars needs to shoulder some if not most of the blame for this as well. Not locking up Ben Wallace's contract has also become a big distraction to this team (unless, of course, it's not dumars' intention to sign him. Heck, he's hasn't been near dominant this year) Never thought I'd see a selfish side of Ben Wallace, a guy that is almost single-handedly losing games for the pistons with his inability to hit free throws. He shouldn't be bitching about anything. He should be ashamed.

yikes, i hope you're posting that for shock value.

JoeD's positives are pretty substantial and they ensure him a great deal of job security. i'd be worried if we traded Ben/Sheed or we fired Flip....but i'd be downright terrified and might completely give up hope on the Pistons if JoeD was canned.

I'm not sure we need multiple moves. One starter moving on might shake this team up. The easiest would be a sign-n-trade with Ben. Even if we brought in a 7' plus guy that can't move that well, we'd have some more inside presence. Than Sheed could lolligag on the wing. And the big doofer would HAVE to shoot > 70%FTs.

OT...how many teams have enough cap to sign Ben outright? 3-5 teams?

Since it's yargs I will answer them honestly. If it were a lesser poster I would probably ignore it...


What about finding a new GM?

1. No bench depth. Last year it cost them and Dumars did not resolve this issue. Maurice Evans was not the answer. As a result the starters play too much during the regular season. Scoring again becomes an issue in the playoffs. Their second round matchup again goes 6+ games tiring out the troops. The only difference this year is that they will lose in the ECF to a healthy Miami Heat team. Will dumars ever improve the bench?

I don't blame Joe for this (other than the Darko/Cato trade). he tried for Finley, and really didn't have much he could do. getting Delk was big. Darko wasn't consistant enough to use anyway. Arroyo didn't fit our offense. I blame the bench depth on Flip for not getting them involved prior to now. Teams that have better benches simply have less money tied up in their starters and/or those guys were counted on all year and know their role.

Delfino should have been developed properly and we'd have scoring punch off the bench. Flip should have given him the freedom to slash to the basket instead of having him and Evans simply pitch a tent at the 3 point line only to miss a sometimes wide open shot.


2. Poor drafting. This also contributes to the point 1. Screwed the pooch with darko. Delfino is brutal and plays the same position as Josh Howard, a more highly touted prospect picked later in the same draft. None of his recent draft choices see the floor. Drafted Okur in the second round and could only sign him for 2 years thereby guaranteeing his exit from Detroit. Prince was the only serviceable pick. Where's Rodney White when you need him?

You can fault him for his drafting. But we won without Darko/White/Delfino before. Basically we have Dyess/Delk/Evans instead of Okur/James/Corliss. We are still good enough to win it all with the proper coaching and plays made by the players. I agree with his poor drafting, but I also know that we've won despite that (largely due to his FA signings and trading).


3. Hiring a non-championship calibur coach. There's a reason he didn't win in Minnesota. His rotations are brutal (I'm sick of seeing evans and/or delk or even mcdyess on the floor mid-way through the 4th quarter and in some cases the closing minutes. The 4th quarter is not when you rest players and try out new things).

When the heat score on 15 straight possessions (or so it seemed) it's probably time to move away from the zone especially when you need to force turnovers. If Rip or Lindsey can't guard Wade, why not try Prince? Larry Brown did this last year. Why not give it a shot? There's no reason to have prince guarding Posey (Mr. Spot up shooter) in the 4th quarter. Flip saudners is a bad coach. Pat Riley is abusing poor Flip Saunders. Mike Brown abused poor Flip Saunders.

Joe Dumars needs to shoulder some if not most of the blame for this as well. Not locking up Ben Wallace's contract has also become a big distraction to this team (unless, of course, it's not dumars' intention to sign him. Heck, he's hasn't been near dominant this year) Never thought I'd see a selfish side of Ben Wallace, a guy that is almost single-handedly losing games for the pistons with his inability to hit free throws. He shouldn't be bitching about anything. He should be ashamed.

I think point 3 is dead on. Flip's rotations are mind boggling. And I've been yelling at the TV about Prince guarding Posey too. Maybe RIP wouldn't be missing all those short jumpers if he had a break from Wade too. I know he's in great condition, but he can't run constantly the whole game. I was on the Flip bandwagon when we hired him, but I have not been a fan for the last half of the season and into the playoffs. Certainly Joe has to be blamed for not finding the right match here. It's hard to get a read on that before the hire though, since Flip really didn't have players to use. Now that he does, he isn't using them correctly.

yikes, i hope you're posting that for shock value.

JoeD's positives are pretty substantial and they ensure him a great deal of job security. i'd be worried if we traded Ben/Sheed or we fired Flip....but i'd be downright terrified and might completely give up hope on the Pistons if JoeD was canned.
I posted along similar lines to get the talk away from just "it's player XYZ's fault" or "it's Flip's fault". Joe's done a whole lot of good things, but he's not perfect and some of our current issues rest on him and his decisions.

These are some select quotes from this article: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/news/story?id=2464207

1. Are the Pistons done for this year? For the future? Were the 2004-06 Bad Boys real or myth?

--------

Chris Broussard, ESPN Mag: The Pistons are done this year, going down in five or six. They are not done for the future, unless this disappointing postseason causes Ben Wallace to go elsewhere (Chicago?) in free agency. If they return intact, they will be a contender for the next two or three years.

From '04-06, Bad Boys The Remix was for real. I will go to my grave believing they were better than San Antonio in '05 and should have won back-to-back. There's no shame in losing to Shaq, D-Wade and another All-Star caliber player in Antoine Walker. But some people did go too far in praising The Remix. It was never one of the greatest teams ever. Anyone spouting that is delusional.

--------

Ric Bucher, ESPN Mag: Maybe I'm in denial, but Detroit is like San Antonio for me -- it's hard to count them out until the heart monitor is going beeeeeeeeeeeeeep. ... That said, I wondered when the grind of going deep into the playoffs with the same main cast four straight years would take its toll. Well, we're seeing it. There's no reason they can't contend again next year, but they need a shakeup (not dramatic, but at least one starter) and an attitude adjustment.

--------

John Hollinger, ESPN Insider: This year? Stick a fork in 'em. If they have to hold Miami under 85 to have a chance at winning, they're not going to do it three times in a row. But that doesn't take away from what the Pistons have accomplished over the past three seasons: An NBA title, two conference titles, and the league's best record. And next year I'm sure they'll be back.

--------

Chris Sheridan, ESPN Insider: They're going to be done momentarily, whether it's tonight or Friday. They're just not as good as the Heat, and we should be giving Miami more credit rather than just picking apart the Pistons. Detroit was and still is one of the top four teams in the NBA, but the Pistons benefitted from playing in a weak Eastern Conference the past two years, and they won the title in '04 because the Lakers were a mess.

--------

Marc Stein, ESPN.com: They're not done and they weren't a myth, either. They broke up the dynastic Lakers and came within a couple minutes of back-to-back championships … those things really happened and can't be taken away. But as I said when the Spurs were bounced by the Mavs, athleticism and quickness and depth are all increasingly crucial in today's NBA and the Pistons' starting five can no longer offset what they lack in those areas.

Tricky as it'll be to find the financial flexibility to address those needs, Detroit still has one of the best front offices in professional sports. So write the Pistons off if you wish. I prefer to wait and see how they fare when they search for bargains to bolster the bench or decide to break up the core to freshen things up.

I think most of ya'll are overreactors. I'd love to see something like Sheed or Ben + the Darko pick and whoever for KG but that's not particularly likely. I do agree that Detroit needs a slasher off the bench a la Devin Harris. That's only obvious with the rules changes the league has made. I think it's ridiculous to same Dumars hasn't done well. I mean at least wait and see what he does this offseason. And I don't get what you guys dislike about Mo Evans. As the 8th or 9th guy off the bench he's a good fit.

Delfino can be that slasher, but he dosnt get any run

Delfino can be that slasher, but he dosnt get any run

I'd like to believe you but I don't see it from him very often.

i thought Dumars draft was very solid last year. only one really questionable player, and it was in the low round. I think he had trouble finding a draft identity to start off and left alot of the scouting to his scouts and assistants. i think last year and years to come he'll put more of his own time into looking at the players himself. I think our drafting will be much better in the process.

Firing joe dumars though is is a lil' crazy. having a quality GM who understands what type of players get you a winning franchise(more than half the teams in this league would dream of having our problems) is not a dime a dozen.

Fire Joe?

Unless they plan on hiring me there is no fucking way you fire him.

I hate getting rid of guys. But Sheed definitely isn't playing up to par. This is when your highest paid guy is supposed to earn his check - in the playoffs. I'm not sure what we could get for him (KG is a wetdream, but a dream nonetheless). You look at bigs coming out in FA. I like Przybilla - legit 7 footer, effective inside scorer, draws fouls like a madman (even if he doesn't shoot them too well), solid defender and rebounder. Oh, and a block machine. He's unhappy with Portland, so I doubt he'll be going back there.

On the contrary. Pryz, from all accounts we've ever seen, likes Portland. But he'll be getting ridiculous money from some team. Like $8 million a year if he plays his cards right. If the Pistons got Pryz, he'd be a great C off the bench a la Doleac, but he comes at a HIGH price.

"Great" and "Doleac" in the same sentence?

I hate getting rid of guys. But Sheed definitely isn't playing up to par. This is when your highest paid guy is supposed to earn his check - in the playoffs. I'm not sure what we could get for him (KG is a wetdream, but a dream nonetheless). You look at bigs coming out in FA. I like Przybilla - legit 7 footer, effective inside scorer, draws fouls like a madman (even if he doesn't shoot them too well), solid defender and rebounder. Oh, and a block machine. He's unhappy with Portland, so I doubt he'll be going back there.

On the contrary. Pryz, from all accounts we've ever seen, likes Portland. But he'll be getting ridiculous money from some team. Like $8 million a year if he plays his cards right. If the Pistons got Pryz, he'd be a great C off the bench a la Doleac, but he comes at a HIGH price.
I don't know about all accounts. He accused a number of his teammates of "packing it in" earlier this year and said he'd like to resign with Portland but will make the decision pending some moves this summer.

I think the whiny bastard that is Rasheed Wallace needs to go. I honestly wouldnt have a problem starting Mcdyess next year, as long as somehow we end up with a young big guy that can take 20-25 minutes off the bench. Also I think we need the player we where looking for in Delf when we drafted him, Im not sure if he can become what we need, and even if he is, if he'll get any minutes. If we moved Sheed, and Delfino, for a better-than-delfino slasher at the 2/3, and young offensively profficent big man that can back Dice, I think it could help. Im not sure who these players would be but i think it address's a couple weak spots.

I agree that Rasheed needs to go. His attitude rubbed off on the team, and now we're a bunch of lazy SOB's even more restricted by Stern's "All Offense, All the Time" hand check rules. Fuck Rasheed, and fuck the league. It's not too late to get something pretty solid for Sheed. I'd also trade Ben, as he's just not what he used to be... It's sad.

I just had a thought. I hope it hasn't been covered.

There was talk of Charlie Villanueva (sp?) from Toronto.

How about Sheed and Delfino (or whatever it takes salary cap wise) to Toronto for Charlie V. and Mike James (via sign and trade).

I think its getting pretty obvious that Joe signed the wrong big man to an extension a couple years ago.

How about this frontline.

http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/images/011604/STREAKINGPISTONSLR.jpg

I just had a thought. I hope it hasn't been covered.

There was talk of Charlie Villanueva (sp?) from Toronto.

How about Sheed and Delfino (or whatever it takes salary cap wise) to Toronto for Charlie V. and Mike James (via sign and trade).

I proposed this one a few posts back so sign me up for this one but I would have a hard time undestanding why Toronto trades a player that has exceeded everyones expectations in just his first year? Toronto surprised a lot of people where they took CV in the draft.

I never understood why Rasheed wasn't told: "Hey, either sign for this $, or we sign Memo and S+T you to where you want to be." I don't think JD could have made it any easier for Rasheed to make a quick decision. But the way it played out, we couldn't match Memo's contract, and still didn't have Rasheed nailed down, screwing ourselves out of Memo (or any big FA on the market, for that matter). We really could've used the Gilbert Arenas rule with Memo.

That said:

We have Rasheed, Rip, and Chauncey shooting 41-42% throughout May with thirthyhigh% three point shooting.

I never understood why Rasheed wasn't told: "Hey, either sign for this $, or we sign Memo and S+T you to where you want to be." I don't think JD could have made it any easier for Rasheed to make a quick decision. But the way it played out, we couldn't match Memo's contract, and still didn't have Rasheed nailed down, screwing ourselves out of Memo (or any big FA on the market, for that matter). We really could've used the Gilbert Arenas rule with Memo.

That said:

We have Rasheed, Rip, and Chauncey shooting 41-42% throughout May with thirthyhigh% three point shooting.

Memo wasn't part of the equation it was Sheed the entire way. Memo wasn't seen as anything close to what Sheed could bring.

Yeah, but Sheed was pussyfooting around with cut-the-check contract $ even when there were no other decent teams that would pay him more than the MLE. We wanted Rasheed, but Rasheed wasn't acting likewise even after he'd won a fucking title and been embraced here. All those rumblings about playing for the Knicks were not an act.

Back to what needs fixing... gotta think. Still too close to think rationally. Let's all agree to not trade Tay, that's all I can figure. FWIW, my rankings for starters in the playoffs, from best to worst, go. Does anyone disagree?

Titanic Tay
Runnin' Rip
Boppy Ben
Mr. Shot
Shit Sheed

Yeah, but Sheed was pussyfooting around with cut-the-check contract $ even when there were no other decent teams that would pay him more than the MLE. We wanted Rasheed, but Rasheed wasn't acting likewise even after he'd won a fucking title and been embraced here. All those rumblings about playing for the Knicks were not an act.

Back to what needs fixing... gotta think. Still too close to think rationally. Let's all agree to not trade Tay, that's all I can figure. FWIW, my rankings for starters in the playoffs, from best to worst, go. Does anyone disagree?

Titanic Tay
Runnin' Rip
Boppy Ben
Mr. Shot
Shit Sheed

The only players to trade of the starting 5 are Ben and Sheed IMHO. Anyone on the bench is fair game if you ask me. I will say that for all the positives Billups has for remaining cool under pressure it also hurts him. Billups for whatever reason couldn't or was unwilling to put this team on his back, I am confused as to which one it is. At times it seemed like he didn't care but I think that's a result of his calm and cool demeanor, I think.

That's about right, Mxy. Chauncey usually lives for these moments--I wonder why he choked so damn bad this playoffs.

I just had a thought. I hope it hasn't been covered.

There was talk of Charlie Villanueva (sp?) from Toronto.

How about Sheed and Delfino (or whatever it takes salary cap wise) to Toronto for Charlie V. and Mike James (via sign and trade).

I proposed this one a few posts back so sign me up for this one but I would have a hard time undestanding why Toronto trades a player that has exceeded everyones expectations in just his first year? Toronto surprised a lot of people where they took CV in the draft.

Because as good as CV is, they already have a great PF in Bosh. That means they either play weak at C(which compared to their other C's, is strong), or play CV at SF, where he doesn't have enough speed. That and general backing up both duties.

So, if the could get Ben, a real Center, they could sacrifice realitively little, to get a big boost.

My trade - Ben and Mo for CV, MoPete, and the Williams with the biggest contract(Alvin?).

If only Minny and Philly would do this, it would be a nice lil squad we'd have.

Sign and trade Big Ben, Mo Evans, and the orlando pick to Philly for Sam Dalembert, and Igodala.

Then trade Rip and Sheed to Minny for KG

Sign Pryzbilla with MLE, and we'd looki like this for next season.

Pistons 06-07 Roster
C: Samuel Dalembert
C: Joel Pryzbilla
C: Dale Davis
PF: Kevin Garnett
PF: Antonio Mcdyess
PF: Jason Maxiell
SF: Tayshaun Prince
SF: Amir Johnson
SG: Andre Igodala
SG: Carlos Delfino
PG: Chauncey Billups
PG: Alex Acker

Not bad at all.. We got some youth at C, who will play in the post, rebound and block shots.. Iggy is a nice post player/defender as well and would get the bulk of the SG mins im sure, but overall this would free up more mins for Delfino. Chauncey's still here to provide leadership. and we got a superstar in KG.. Like I said this ain't gunna happen, but I can always wish.

Trade Bill Davidson to Dallas for Mark Cuban.

All of a sudden I have a major urge to see Mad Max in action. THROW IT DOWN (little) BIG MAN!

Trade Bill Davidson to Dallas for Mark Cuban.

I would give a limb for that. I hate being a dick to an owner who brought 3 championships to a town but the old man's belief he can take the money to the afterlife has cost us the necessary depth to repeat.

Trade Bill Davidson to Dallas for Mark Cuban.

I would give a limb for that. I hate being a dick to an owner who brought 3 championships to a town but the old man's belief he can take the money to the afterlife has cost us the necessary depth to repeat.

I tend to agree, and said as much at the trade deadline.

Darko needed to be converted into a rotation player for THIS YEAR.

Then we still could have added Delk.

Even after the deal, we should have waived Cato and made another deal to shore up our bench/rotation, since Cato wasn't even tried against Snaq.

This was all bumbled horribly.

If only Minny and Philly would do this, it would be a nice lil squad we'd have.

Sign and trade Big Ben, Mo Evans, and the orlando pick to Philly for Sam Dalembert, and Igodala.

Then trade Rip and Sheed to Minny for KG

Sign Pryzbilla with MLE, and we'd looki like this for next season.

Pistons 06-07 Roster
C: Samuel Dalembert
C: Joel Pryzbilla
C: Dale Davis
PF: Kevin Garnett
PF: Antonio Mcdyess
PF: Jason Maxiell
SF: Tayshaun Prince
SF: Amir Johnson
SG: Andre Igodala
SG: Carlos Delfino
PG: Chauncey Billups
PG: Alex Acker

Not bad at all.. We got some youth at C, who will play in the post, rebound and block shots.. Iggy is a nice post player/defender as well and would get the bulk of the SG mins im sure, but overall this would free up more mins for Delfino. Chauncey's still here to provide leadership. and we got a superstar in KG.. Like I said this ain't gunna happen, but I can always wish.

As impossible as that is, if we did it, I would skeet everywhere. But I don't see Philly doing that.

http://www.nj.com/columns/ledger/dalessandro/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/1149405971117930.xml&coll=1&thispage=1


Serious tune-up a reality for sluggish Pistons

Sunday, June 04, 2006

As it turned out, Miami was a gathering storm, just building momentum until Shaquille O'Neal found another gear.

And as it turned out, the Nets were a lot better than people thought -- and in retrospect, they probably deserve credit for waking up a sleeping giant.

But if we learned anything about the Eastern Conference playoffs this spring, it is this: The Detroit Pistons deteriorated faster than anyone could have anticipated, and unless they make an honest assessment of their through-the-looking-glass view of the NBA, they risk having the game pass them by.

The conference finals showed their innumerable flaws; given the cast of characters, they were stupefying. Rasheed Wallace, perhaps slowed by a bad ankle, was awful for the entire series. Chauncey Billups shot badly, was a stranger to the paint, and never found transition points. Tayshaun Prince was an invisible man on the road, averaging 9.3 points in the three games at Miami. Ben Wallace had four blocks in six games and blamed it on the coach's de-emphasis on defense.

Their famed chemistry disintegrated into a childish display of finger-pointing after Game 3 and abject fear in Game 6. And they never played with any kind of edge, save for the first quarter of Game 2.

Lest you forget, this was a team that once had nothing but edge. Every starter save for Prince had been traded or cut. There was no megastar, just a lot of guys in the top six or seven at their positions who brought a healthy hostility to their jobs. They were selfless, united and tough -- a team in the truest sense -- and when everyone figured back in November that Miami would give them a run for the East this year, they suddenly became invincible.

They didn't just dominate, they flirted with immortality. By midseason, they were on a 72-win pace.

Then March arrived, and they began playing as though they were bored. LeBron James exposed them for being less focused than they should have been. And what happened next was inevitable. Dwyane Wade tore them apart for 29.2 points on 66-percent shooting (66?) in the first five games, then climbed out of a hospital bed Friday morning and showed more passion than their entire lineup. Shaq, a willing sidekick until that point, drove in the final stake.

But it's the Pistons offense that will be dissected over the next three months. The numbers scream: They were held to 86 points or fewer in nine of their final 11 games, and lost seven of the 11. They scored 86, 83, 78 and 78 points in their four losses against the Heat -- reduced to a jump-shooting team, and a lamentable one at that.

At a time when they should be in their prime, they look like an anachronism, as the league trends strongly toward speed and offense. They don't have a player who can dominate offensively as James and Wade can, and though they had planned to win these games with superior balance, they learned there was no fuel left in the tank because Flip Saunders had never developed a bench.

"No question, when you go seven games -- like we did against Cleveland -- it wears you out," the coach said. "This team has had a phenomenal run, and it can wear on you mentally as well as physically."

But an offensive meltdown isn't what GM Joe Dumars had in mind when he hired Saunders. Just the opposite, in fact.

So now Dumars has the most challenging summer of his illustrious career. He has a decision to make with Ben Wallace, a free agent who expects something approaching a max deal -- even at the age of 32, even though he is an offensive albatross -- with a formidable negotiator (Arn Tellem) on his side.

But mostly, Dumars has to change the mix. Maybe he calls Minnesota about Kevin Garnett, and offers Rasheed with either Prince or Rip Hamilton. Maybe there's a free agent -- Speedy Claxton, Mike James -- who can jump-start the offense. Maybe Saunders is the wrong guy, and Dumars will have to choose between him and Big Ben.

Regardless, the needle is now officially stuck. This isn't like the Spurs, who were sent home after making fewer plays in the overtime of a Game 7. The Pistons were exposed by two young stars in this postseason, and ultimately outclassed. They have serious work to do.

IMO we need to sacrifice defense for a consistent low post threat. Now as much as I think Sheed has value he doesn't have enough value to get us as much as we want. So I would sign and trade Ben.

Ben wants to be on a defensive minded team and the Pistons are moving away fro that to some degree. A team that needs that solidifying leader and defensive presence is Memphis. So I would trade Ben and future first pick to Memphis for Warrick and Gasol.

I would then Trade DD, Delfino, Evans and our 07 pick to Minny for Ricky Davis.

I would then offer the full MLE to Reggie Evans, attempt to re-sign LH for a low dollar amount, and give either Delk, Chucky Atkins a minimum deal to be the offensive PG. Lastly I would offer the BAE to a big man like Antonio Davis, Pollard, Khandi-man, Voskul to be the extra big for 06-07, I would say AD is most likely.

So My 06-07 Roster would look like:

C Gasol/Evans/AD
PF Sheed/Dice/ Maxiell
SF Prince/Warrick/Johnson
SG Rip/Davis/Acker
PG Chauncey/Hunter/Delk

I would use whatever seconds we have to draft euro crap, or if there was a steal, providing we got the Minny pick, release Acker to keep that pick on the roster.

i can't see the Grizzlies doing this.....gasol coming off his best season ever, his numbers are sick. he seemed to have stepped it up as a leader last season, carrying the Grizzlies.

that said, if JS's scenario could happen...i'd be ecstatic. when i think of low post threats left in the NBA, Gasol's one of the best, imo. Gasol's post game out definitely draw double teams and allow Rip and Chauncey be effective spot up shooters.

also, could Warrick be that athletic slasher we've been coveting? i can't remember too much of his game since he's gotten to the NBA.

According to numerous reports Memphis may look to move Gasol for a more defensive minded player or cap space. I don't see how moving Gasol helps that more than waiting on Eddie Jones' deal to expire after this season.

One prominent rumor is Gasol to Toronto for CV and the number 1 pick. I am sure my offer idea is too weak but I think a pick would get it done.

how cool would it be to get Pau Gasol as our low post presence. A Wallace (either) + change for Pau?

Ben Wallace might be happy under Mike Fratello's system.

According to numerous reports Memphis may look to move Gasol for a more defensive minded player or cap space. I don't see how moving Gasol helps that more than waiting on Eddie Jones' deal to expire after this season.

One prominent rumor is Gasol to Toronto for CV and the number 1 pick. I am sure my offer idea is too weak but I think a pick would get it done.
get 'er done, Joe D.

me likes the idea of Gasol in a Pistons' uni. and warrick is hyper athletic, so he's got plenty of upside as that slasher and rim-attacker we desperately need. on the bad side, we've got Delfino, Mo, and Warrick on the bench for Flip to decide between. but in JS's scenario, we can dump Delf and Mo for a legit backup 2 guard. would work out REAL nice, if we could swing it. although, i'mnot sure how Davis would feel as a bench player. he had a pretty great season last year.

We're not getting Gasol for one of the overpaid, over the hill Wallaces.

wow yall got some crazy ideas. not sure what to think of it all. all i have to say is i dont think doing a complete overhaul on a team who won two conference titles and almost won another is the right thing to do. if anything with the starting five, i would find a good sheed trade, but if it isnt there then sit with him and well i dont have an answer lol. ben is an offensive liability but c'mon look at snaq, he isnt much better than ben hes just used right. look how many times ben passed from under the basket in the playoffs, snaq would dunked or at least drawn a foul. even if you miss free throws, fouls add up and are important. plus if i remember correctly, he is having surgery on his wrist this offseason. i dunno, i still like the team, they just fell apart at the wrong time and i still feel like hating on flips rotation, playcalling, and motivation.

I think we all agree that we need a post scorer, preferably one that can (at least occasionally) draw a double team.

I started thinking about who that might be and it's a lot harder that you might think. How many post players are there that are "double team" worthy? And of those, how many are available?

1. Dump that lazy stoner Rasheed Wallace. I hate his whining and he never shows up when we need him. Dikembe Mutombo and Rasheed Wallace are alumnis of INFU.

2. Dump Richard Hamilton. I'm not a big fan of one-dimensional shooting guards that are matadors on defense. It's time for a more talented and dynamic shooting guard.

3. Fire Flip. He's just not that good of a coach. Unfortunately, he'll probably stay.

4. And for the love of God, just retire already Lindsey.

http://www.infu.uni-dortmund.de/

I think we all agree that we need a post scorer, preferably one that can (at least occasionally) draw a double team.

I started thinking about who that might be and it's a lot harder that you might think. How many post players are there that are "double team" worthy? And of those, how many are available?

AFH

Al Fucking Harrington. Why didn't you pull the trigger with Darko, Joe!? :(

i think this is pretty solid.

we trade rasheed wallace to goldenstate for ike diogu, derek fischer, and michael pietrus. we could throw in young guys (delfino, maxiel, etc) and it still works. i dont know if we'd have to throw in draft picks (probably).

diogu is small for a pf, but if anyone might be ready to break out, i think he's right up there. he's got the long arms joe loves, plus he loves to dunk. a downgrade from sheed, but there are only a few pf's in the league who arent, and none are realistic replacements.

pietrus. i dont know much about his game other than he's an elite defender. exactly what we need from the backup 2/3 (assuming flip will play him).

fischer: the heart of the deal. he has a horrible contract (maybe worse than sheed's), so i dont see gsw making the deal without him. but he's an ideal backup pg (regardless of lindsey's decision).

we become:

ben/ davis (or mle FA)
diogu/dyess
tay/pietrus
rip/pietrus
billups/fischer

suddenly, we have 8 solid rotation guys. plus there are a few centers i'd like with the MLE.

i dont know if GSW make this trade. i could see us having to give up all our draft picks.

I kind of like that one too b-diddy.

I thought Diogu was just as much a C as he was a PF? I know he played C against us this year and he looked pretty good doing it.

If we do end up trading Sheed (or Ben for that matter) it would be good to send them out West.

Fisher's bad contract shouldn't really effect us too much, since we're not going to have cap space for a long time anyways.

Would the Clips be dumb enough to swap Brand for Ben? What about Brand and Maggs for Ben and RIP? Brand is certainly a great low post player, and a solid defender to boot.

Forgive me I am stuck on KG primarily because he is the only guy out there that I see as being better than what we have. Anything less than KG then it becomes a debate on whether it's an upgrade.

here's what I want to know, would you......

S&T Ben + Rip to Minny for KG. Then sign Bonzi Wells to play the 2 (If Bonzi isn't too big to play the off guard).

The good news is that if you included Rip you would only need to sign Ben to around a 10 mill deal which is palatable to both Ben and any other team.

So would you do this and do you think Minny would find it to be a fair deal on their end?

just thinking here.

edit: Forget it seems McHale is taking hard line stance now:

McHale: "We're Not Going To Trade Kevin Garnett"5th June, 2006 - 2:09 amhttp://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/McHale_Kevin_min.jpgStar Tribune - In a wide-ranging interview with the Star Tribune, Kevin McHale was candid on a variety of subjects, including Kevin Garnett (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/332/kevin_garnett/).

"We're not going to trade Kevin Garnett (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/332/kevin_garnett/)," said McHale. "Teams that would call up (to trade for Garnett) have nothing I would trade him for anyway.

"Kevin wants to win. Kevin is very competitive. The last conversation we had -- about a week ago, he came in for a couple of hours and we talked -- he said he understands where we're at with this team and how, hopefully, a piece or two could make a real difference.

"I don't know if so much dynamic change is called for. The difference between winning 58 [in 2003-04] or winning 48 was a shot here or a shot there. And the difference between winning 44 or 33 this year was a shot here, a shot there. It's always a much finer line than people think. We had just a brutal record in close games." [READ] (http://javascript<b></b>:rgmow('/rgmow.php?aid=40793','40793'))

1) McHale is an idiot.

2) Its never been up to McHale. Its all KG. If he demands to be traded, it will happen. Nothing else will cause it becuase as soon as he's gone so is McHale.

What do you guys think about Jared Jeffries?

A 6-11 SF, sort of in the Tayshaun mold.

He wouldn't solve our post scoring problems, but many of us have been eyeing a "true SF" backup for Tay for 2 years now.

He's restricted, so Washington might match most offers, unless they have salary or cap issues that I'm unaware of.

I'd only take him if he came cheap, as he is another terrible FT shooter.

I was thinking about Jeffries. To answer your question Glenn, Washington seems to be looking to dump a few contracts so that they can be players next offseason. However I don't expect anything to drastic. One name they are shopping is Haywood, they want to get a shorter deal back, I would love to see us move DD for Haywood. He isn't a starting C but is productive as a reserve which is what we need, plus he has great size.

With Jeffries if they aren't looking to add long term deals I think we could get him. I don't know his price tag though, last season Washington let Blake and Dixon go elsewhere with only small deals.

I hate to bring up an old and tired bit here, but what about Grant Hill? He will definitely have the hunger, and he will have the leadership. Would fixing the Pistons be that easy?

I hate to bring up an old and tired bit here, but what about Grant Hill? He will definitely have the hunger, and he will have the leadership. Would fixing the Pistons be that easy?

I assume that you are talking if he were to negotiate a buyout of his final contract year with the Magic, right?

A trade would be costly/difficult, as he is scheduled to make $17m this year.

It would have to be something like Sheed/Evans/Delfino for G.Hill.

I suppose that Orlando could buy him out if they want to go into the tank for one more year and if Grant is willing to cut them a big deal, which would free him up to take our MLE.

He could take $10-12m from them on a buyout, and then ~$5m (MLE) from us. Not likely, but it could happen.

No no no Glenn. Just sign and trade Ben for him. Life is a circle.

Ben & Darko, together again *warm fuzzies*

http://www.onlinesports.com/images/phf-aagc012.gif

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/7606/mattharpring2wx.jpg
Matt Harpring. In terms of FA, this guy is probably the best we can get for our needs. He prefers to go inside, draw fouls, and can hit his free throws. And he makes a damn fine Spicey Chicken Sandwich.

I've always liked Harpring too, but I wouldn't give him the whole MLE because his knees might just be shot. I wonder if someone else will MLE him?

What do you guys think about Jared Jeffries?

A 6-11 SF, sort of in the Tayshaun mold.

He wouldn't solve our post scoring problems, but many of us have been eyeing a "true SF" backup for Tay for 2 years now.

He's restricted, so Washington might match most offers, unless they have salary or cap issues that I'm unaware of.

I'd only take him if he came cheap, as he is another terrible FT shooter.

Now I've seen him listed as both UFA and RFA in different places, this is getting annoying.

Stop asking TheKid for his UFA/RFA list.

I hate to bring up an old and tired bit here, but what about Grant Hill? He will definitely have the hunger, and he will have the leadership. Would fixing the Pistons be that easy?

I assume that you are talking if he were to negotiate a buyout of his final contract year with the Magic, right?

A trade would be costly/difficult, as he is scheduled to make $17m this year.

It would have to be something like Sheed/Evans/Delfino for G.Hill.

I suppose that Orlando could buy him out if they want to go into the tank for one more year and if Grant is willing to cut them a big deal, which would free him up to take our MLE.

He could take $10-12m from them on a buyout, and then ~$5m (MLE) from us. Not likely, but it could happen.

I was under the impression that it wasn't an IF they would buy him out, but a WHEN. Everyone loves Grant Hill, but I thought the Magic were just ready to move on without him. And if that's the case, would Hill and Dumars be able to come up with something to get him into the Pistons teal, err... red, white and blue?

Brevin Knight?

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/sports/basketball/nba/charlotte_bobcats/14776296.htm


Knight becoming a hot commodity

Several teams interested in Bobcats point guard

RICK BONNELL
rbonnell@charlotteobserver.com

ORLANDO, Fla. - The pre-draft camp is supposed to be about rookies, but the Charlotte Bobcats keep getting asked about a veteran.

Brevin Knight. It sounds as if a deal could happen this summer.

"There's a lot of interest in Brevin," coach-general manager Bernie Bickerstaff told the Observer on Thursday during a break at the pre-draft camp at Disney's Wide World of Sports. "Most of the conversation includes him.''

Bickerstaff said he's spoken with the Toronto Raptors and Portland Trail Blazers, along with other teams he didn't identify, about various possibilities. The Raptors and Blazers could use a veteran point guard, although at 30 Knight would likely be more attracted to a contender.

Knight is aware the team might consider trading him, with Raymond Felton emerging at point guard late last season. Bickerstaff asked Knight to play more off the ball the last month of the season to allow Felton to develop.

Neither Knight nor his agent, Bill Strickland, could be reached Thursday. Late in the season Knight said he'd prefer to remain a Bobcat, but if his minutes drop dramatically, he'd be receptive to a trade.

"If I'm going to play just a little bit of minutes, I'd rather be on a playoff team," Knight said during the season. "So if (the situation) changes, we'd address that."

That process might soon begin, although Bickerstaff said the team isn't close to a deal. Bickerstaff respects how Knight helped shape this franchise, and wouldn't blindside him.

"I haven't talked to him, but I will," Bickerstaff said. "It would entail him getting some input."

That doesn't mean Knight could kill a good deal.

"He doesn't have veto power," Bickerstaff said. "But I wouldn't just throw him in a situation that wouldn't be right for his skills."

A deal could be complicated because teams with the most use for veteran point guards -- contenders -- might have the hardest time fitting Knight's salary under their caps. He'll make $4.2 million next season, so the Bobcats would likely have to take back some salary from any team acquiring Knight.

Also, Bickerstaff says he has to be realistic about how high a draft pick he'd get in compensation.

"You're not going to break the bank (trading) him," Bickerstaff said. "You have to be careful if you're talking about getting greedy. Brevin came here as a free agent. If you get something in return" you're ahead.

We could still trade Darko for Harrington (so to speak)
Dale Davis (contract), Mo, Jmax and Orlando pick for Al (S&T)
or they have to settle for our own future #1 (instead of Orl pick)
Al plays starter type minutes backing up Tay & Sheed.

Gives the team flexibilty for moving Sheed later.

I'm not at all sold on Harrington. He wants to start. He's rarely come up big in the playoffs when in Indiana on the whole.

I'd like a Brevin Knight or Speedy Claxton-type player, but that should only be part of the off-season equation.

The Grant Hill talk just disturbs me. WTF does Joe take him back? I'll give Grant one thing -- he's a -real- SF backup, if he can ever play again.

Why is it that every time I see "Fix this team", I think "spayed or neutered"?

Why is it that every time I see "Fix this team", I think "spayed or neutered"?

http://www.entertainment-news.org/images/thumbnails/bob-barker-to-miss-daytime-emmys.jpg

YOU can help control the pet population.

I think the Heat already neutered us.



(alsoMattbeatmetotheBobBarkerpic)

I'm not at all sold on Harrington. He wants to start. He's rarely come up big in the playoffs when in Indiana on the whole.

I'd like a Brevin Knight or Speedy Claxton-type player, but that should only be part of the off-season equation.

The Grant Hill talk just disturbs me. WTF does Joe take him back? I'll give Grant one thing -- he's a -real- SF backup, if he can ever play again.

Why is it that every time I see "Fix this team", I think "spayed or neutered"?

Last time he was in the playoff was in 2004 and he was shitting on us constantly. As for sold...if he's coming off our non existant bench, how could you not be sold on the guy? At this point, my grandmother is a welcomed addition. Seriously.

He shot 37% against us that series (and not much better against other teams in most of his other playoff series). The one really good game that he had against us was Game 1. And remember -- he wants to start! So who do you bench in this scenario to get Al -- Tay or Rasheed? :)

He shot 37% against us that series (and not much better against other teams in most of his other playoff series). The one really good game that he had against us was Game 1. And remember -- he wants to start! So who do you bench in this scenario to get Al -- Tay or Rasheed? :)

That's why I said if he comes off the bench for us, I mean as a starter, he's not worth it. What I do know is he talked about hating all the losing...so if he'd be interested now, I think he could be great, but certainly nothing more than the 6th or 7th man.

http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/4812/fart1jt.gifhttp://img479.imageshack.us/img479/5476/harpringmatt4lx.jpg

http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/4812/fart1jt.gifhttp://img479.imageshack.us/img479/5476/harpringmatt4lx.jpg

Is he missing teeth? Weird pic..

Is he missing teeth? Weird pic..

Well, he was born in Ohio after all.

I mean, just look at e-ray...

Hey now. I'm proud to say that I still have all of my teeth, seeing that I'm from Northern Ohio.

In the end, we have to ask ourselves what killed us, and use Dallas' success against Miami for help.

In no particular order, we need:
1. A post presence
2. A 7 foot post defender that actually can play in the rotation
3. A scorer off the bench besides Dice
4. Someone who can actually do a good job at backup PG

Joe D will try to get the best 8 men on the floor, with the #9 likely being a better backup C that actually deserves some burn. They are likely younger guys with long deals or old guys with expiring ones. I left out obvious players we all hate like Keith Van Horn.

IMO players who fit in this scenario are:
Power players: Al Jefferson, Brendan Haywood, Francisco Elsen, Ike Diogu, Magloire, PJ Brown, Nazr Muhammed, Chris Wilcox, Al Harrington

At SG/F: Bonzi Wells, Carlos Delfino, Fred Jones, Battier, Des Mason, GHill, Tim Thomas, Mo Pete

At PG: Juan Dixon, Andre Miller, Jason Hart

The PG field doesn't look to deep, and that's why we should start there. Portland has 3 PGs on their roster already, making Dixon at least attainable. Andre Miller has the size, rebounding, and inside the arc shooting to make a huge difference and immediately merit 26-30 mpg and let Billups backup Rip.

As for the wing players, I am fine with Delfino as long as we actually play him, but Des Mason and Wells would be clear upgrades.

In the power spot, I would be ecstatic for us to offer the full MLE to Chris Wilcox. Unfortunately he will get more than that. We would likely need to part with at least the Orlando pick to get that done. Jefferson and Diogu are likely to stay with their current teams, and Milwaukee won't trade Magloire (who sucked anyway) to us. Harrington and Dice might be too small a lineup to keep as the backups.

[QUOTE=BIG BEN'S FRO]
IMO players who fit in this scenario are:
Power players: Al Jefferson, Brendan Haywood, Francisco Elsen, Ike Diogu, Magloire, PJ Brown, Nazr Muhammed, Chris Wilcox, Al Harrington

At SG/F: Bonzi Wells, Carlos Delfino, Fred Jones, Battier, Des Mason, GHill, Tim Thomas, Mo Pete

At PG: Juan Dixon, Andre Miller, Jason Hart
QUOTE]

That would be the perfect off season IMO. Get all 3 of those guys or atleast 2.

I really doubt Andre Miller comes here for either of our big men considering the fact they got Camby Kmart and Nene, who i think is a RFA.

I think post players are overrated. Sure, I'd love to add a true post player here, but how many teams have those? Shaq, TD, Brand...how many players are a true post player? The Mavs don't really have one. They just beat you with solid D, and by having plenty of guys to bring in off the bench and score.

IMO, a bench scorer is the answer. Someone that can drive to the basket and create their own shot or for their teammates.

I think post players are overrated. Sure, I'd love to add a true post player here, but how many teams have those? Shaq, TD, Brand...how many players are a true post player? The Mavs don't really have one. They just beat you with solid D, and by having plenty of guys to bring in off the bench and score.

IMO, a bench scorer is the answer. Someone that can drive to the basket and create their own shot or for their teammates.

This is something that I mentioned a while back (the lack of post players, available or not). I think in lieu of a post player a point guard that can penetrate, draw defenders to the paint, and either hit a quick pass to a slasher going to the hoop or kick back out to an open perimeter player would do just fine.

Brevin Knight is the guy I'm thinking about right now.

Of course, then we have an incredible 3 guard rotation, with Delfino/Delk? backing up both spots, not bad if you can get them all minutes.

Then there is the issue of not having the above referenced "slasher" on the squad right now either.

Can Amir be Tay's backup? Maybe. Would Orlando match an offer sheet for Ariza? (part of our MLE)

Lots of fun stuff to discuss at least.

ariza isnt a true dependable scorer. i would truly question dumars thinking if he went after ariza or knight. knight isnt a scorer(arroyo could dish well IMO too, but that doesnt fit if you cant score at pg in this offense) and ariza is a "potential" guy only. he said he's looking for two more starter potential guys. brevin can start on the bobcats. but hasnt really started anywhere else since his early days in cleveland. bonzi wells is a prospect i hope, i'm sure some here are hoping al harrington drops his asking price to roll with us. we have options. but if they included going after guyys like ariza and knight. then the offseason would be a failure IMO.

I agree that there aren't really many post players available, but that doesn't change the fact that Shaq, Duncan, Jordan, Robinson, Hakeem, etc were all players that could dominate in the post. Of course, Elton Brand isn't exactly available to us.

If we do add a slasher, the key is that is HAS to be a consistent player. That is why I am pro-Bonzi over the others. He has the ability to score. Ariza I could live with, but I just don't think he would be enough to get us over the top. Is Ariza really a better slasher than Delfino? I am not so sure. It really is too bad we could net Jason Terry, who will command way too much money for us now. Gotta go with Al Harrington, Bonzi, and Juan Dixon as our top priorities, and Haywood in the next tier. Most of these guys should be attainable and without too much of a cost.

Question 1:

If we somehow managed to sign Bonzi then does Delfino play PG/SG and not SG/SF?

Question 2: If we sign Bonzi then what becomes of Mo Evans? If he's still here then Delfino won't get the playing time he needs.

A trade of Davis + 2007 Detroit pick for Dixon + #30 is something Portland might be interested.

Davis gives them another big body in case Joel Pryzbilla bolts or asks for too much cash. He's also an expiring contract. They give us back our 2006 pick and will get a better one in 2007 (in a much deeper draft too).

Portland might not be getting "good value" for Dixon but I think this helps them both financially and on the court.

IMO players who fit in this scenario are:
Power players: Al Jefferson, Brendan Haywood, Francisco Elsen, Ike Diogu, Magloire, PJ Brown, Nazr Muhammed, Chris Wilcox, Al Harrington

At SG/F: Bonzi Wells, Carlos Delfino, Fred Jones, Battier, Des Mason, GHill, Tim Thomas, Mo Pete

At PG: Juan Dixon, Andre Miller, Jason Hart



PJ and Des Mason for something, they are a combo that we could go after. (Delfino, Orlando pick, Davis)

Fischer and Diougu could be another combo scenario.

Dixon isn't a PG, he is an undersized SG, worse than Delk.

Battier would be nice, but the price probably too high.

Mo Pete would most likely only be involved if we tried a major trade(Ben, Chauncey, etc.), I think they like him too much to move him for our subs.

Wilcox, Earl Watson, and #9 for Ben(+ change?)? If Ben wants to leave.

Don't think we could get Wilcox as a bench guy, IMO.

A trade of Davis + 2007 Detroit pick for Dixon + #30 is something Portland might be interested.

Davis gives them another big body in case Joel Pryzbilla bolts or asks for too much cash. He's also an expiring contract. They give us back our 2006 pick and will get a better one in 2007 (in a much deeper draft too).

Portland might not be getting "good value" for Dixon but I think this helps them both financially and on the court.

I'm on the same page with you here. I think Portland might be a great fit for us to move DD & even Evans. DD has been there before, the fans appreciate his work ethic, and he'd be the veteran leader that they so desperately need.

IMO players who fit in this scenario are:
Power players: Al Jefferson, Brendan Haywood, Francisco Elsen, Ike Diogu, Magloire, PJ Brown, Nazr Muhammed, Chris Wilcox, Al Harrington

At SG/F: Bonzi Wells, Carlos Delfino, Fred Jones, Battier, Des Mason, GHill, Tim Thomas, Mo Pete

At PG: Juan Dixon, Andre Miller, Jason Hart



PJ and Des Mason for something, they are a combo that we could go after. (Delfino, Orlando pick, Davis)

Fischer and Diougu could be another combo scenario.

Dixon isn't a PG, he is an undersized SG, worse than Delk.

Battier would be nice, but the price probably too high.

Mo Pete would most likely only be involved if we tried a major trade(Ben, Chauncey, etc.), I think they like him too much to move him for our subs.

Wilcox, Earl Watson, and #9 for Ben(+ change?)? If Ben wants to leave.

Don't think we could get Wilcox as a bench guy, IMO.
you guys be picking some iffy stinkers. juan dixon? Desmond "cant make shit but dunks" mason? naw man, joe better not be full of shit like that. He made a vow to grab some serious help. Not potential or servicable help. and bonzi is no threat to Delfino IMO. Delfino needs to play SG/PG ballhandler next year. He's built to play that role and if we have even half a brain running this team he will.

Also battier would be nice. dont know if he'll be expensive though. its possible(bobby simmons proved that), but i think he could be an affordable possibility depending on what teams go after him.

[QUOTE=BIG BEN'S FRO]


Wilcox, Earl Watson, and #9 for Ben(+ change?)? If Ben wants to leave.



In a millisecond. I'd do it without the #9. Watson is the perfect energy PG we need. Wilcox was a 14/8 guy in 30mpg once he got out from behind Brand's shadow. Most importantly, you can get him the ball around the paint and know he'll finish with authority.

I highly doubt Ben considers the Sonics though considering the situation they're going through right now ($$$ wise).

Battier isn't a free agent. He signed an extension a long time ago.

Des Mason and PJ Brown as a trade package? A lot of salary involved there.

Wilcox will become a Base Year Compensation player if he gets the contract everyone thinks he'll get. Tough to trade BYC players.

I'm actually surprised some people didn't do more research before throwing out ideas. Some of these are just not possible under the CBA.

Use the trade checker or ESPN's trade machine to see if you're ideas work.

Also remember that if you use Davis and Evans as the primary cogs in your trade it's extremely difficult to include "filler" because who the fuck are you going to use? Maxiell? Delfino? Amir? Not likely.

Also: where the fuck does all this Grant Hill talk come from?

He's now a massive expiring contract for Orlando and with so many teams losing money he's a huge trade chip.

I don't see them buying Hill out, so he's off the list for us IMO.

It was from the Detroit News, the same link about Porter replacing lowe...the link you said you didnt click on scout.

Well, I still don't think he's going to be bought out.

Orlando would be fucking crazy to buy him out.

He's the perfect role model for a young player, good team mate, good leader, versatile player, veteran, the press love him, has an expiring contract etc.

What possible downside is there if they keep him?

I doubt he'd put pressure on them to re-sign him after the season. He'll probably jump to a contender then for the MLE or less and Orlando will continue building.