Ben Wallace's future in Detroit [Archive]

Kstat

05-14-2006, 01:17 PM

I think that giving him a max or near max deal for 4 years or more would be a mistake. As good as he is, he isn't worth that and i'd let him go. His stats have decreased this year and will probably continue to decrease as he gets older. It's hard to give up the DPOY but you have to look at the teams future. Do you really think he'll be as good next season? Or the season after that? Keep in mind he will also have surgery on his wrist in the off-season.

Without Ben we are NOTHING.

N-o-t-h-i-n-g

We'll be just another good team with no chance of winning a championship. And then we'll be kicking ourselves in 5 years for being stupid and cheap enough to break up a budding dynasty.

Fuck the future. Our future is NOW.

And I'm sorry, but if there's any player I'm fine with overpaying, it's ben wallace.

Ben could have capped us 2 years ago by opting out. And then, we probably wouldnt have had the money to sign Dice.

I agree with MOLA. Ben deserves whatever he gets. Anobody that thinks there's a "let ben walk" price should slap themselves and take a look at ben's trophycase and our 2004 banner hanging in the rafters.

In 5 years when Ben is 36 and making $20 million and wearing 2-3 rings, I'll be a lot happier than when Ben is 36 on another team and we have a nice flexible payroll with zero championships since 2004.

Kstat

05-14-2006, 01:20 PM

His stats have decreased because he has help with Sheed and Prince up front as aposed to Michael Curry and Uncle Smokey. And because people have figured out that if I drive the lane on this guy, chances are the ball is going to be swatted back down I-75. Stats have nothing to do with this mans impact on how this team plays basketball. If the pistons lose Ben, you can kiss good bye being a championship contender

I agree with the last sentance, but can you honestly say he has the same impact consistantly as he did 3-4 years ago? Go back and watch some games from back then. You will be amazed at the difference. As it sits right now, he brings that energy he used to bring every night maybe once out of every 5 games. And I still haven't seen it in the playoffs.

Ben doesnt have an entire gameplan set around him like he did in 2002.

That makes the job he's done MORE impressive, not less.

Ben's playing the bill russell role of being the lone guy holding down the fort, while the other 4 guys are running and gunning.

You don't measure Ben's impact in statistics. You measure it in wins and losses.

Anthony

05-14-2006, 01:20 PM

Without Ben we are NOTHING.

N-o-t-h-i-n-g

We'll be just another good team with no chance of winning a championship. And then we'll be kicking ourselves in 5 years for being stupid and cheap enough to break up a budding dynasty.

Fuck the future. Our future is NOW.

Exactly. At some point you have to stop building for ahead and realize you're at where you started building for 5 years ago. Follow?

Fool

05-14-2006, 01:21 PM

Not to mention that at worse a four year deal is 3 years of pain since the last year of any high contract is an asset nowadays. Meanwhile, the one thing I don't worry about is Dumar being able work his way out of a bad contract situation.

shags

05-14-2006, 02:21 PM

I think that giving him a max or near max deal for 4 years or more would be a mistake. As good as he is, he isn't worth that and i'd let him go. His stats have decreased this year and will probably continue to decrease as he gets older. It's hard to give up the DPOY but you have to look at the teams future. Do you really think he'll be as good next season? Or the season after that? Keep in mind he will also have surgery on his wrist in the off-season.

Without Ben we are NOTHING.

N-o-t-h-i-n-g

We'll be just another good team with no chance of winning a championship. And then we'll be kicking ourselves in 5 years for being stupid and cheap enough to break up a budding dynasty.

Fuck the future. Our future is NOW.

And I'm sorry, but if there's any player I'm fine with overpaying, it's ben wallace.

Ben could have capped us 2 years ago by opting out. And then, we probably wouldnt have had the money to sign Dice.

I agree with MOLA. Ben deserves whatever he gets. Anobody that thinks there's a "let ben walk" price should slap themselves and take a look at ben's trophycase and our 2004 banned hanging in the rafters.

In 5 years when Ben is 36 and making $20 million and wearinfg 2-3 rings, I'll be a lot happier than when Ben is 36 on another team and we have a nice flexible payroll with zero championships since 2004.

Great post. With Ben (and provided we re-sign Chauncey), we're championship contenders AT LEAST the next 3 years. As a fan, I don't know what more you could ask for.

There isn't a contract Ben Wallace could sign with the Pistons that I'd be unhappy with.

realistic

05-14-2006, 02:24 PM

Ben's in the best shape of any player in the league. He's a powerhouse. The cats that played the game and were in great shape past their 30's went on to have VERY long careers.

Look at Kamalone, Kevin Willis and Dennis Rodman.

I understand that taking charges, rebounding, blocking shots and
shit all of the time is hard work, but Ben's in his prime right now.
In 4 years, he'll likely be in the 1st year of his decline. Give him 6.
Besides, I don't mind giving Ben back pay. He fuckin deserves it.

It'd be fucking sweet if they could just pay him a grip off the books though.[/FONT]Karl Malone had a jumpshot, and Kevin Willis was, c'mon, Kevin Willis.

But I looked at the numbers for Rodman, who, IMO, is the best analog for Ben, and according to those numbers, Rodman started to decline at about 33, but he was still putting up 15 rebounds until he was almost 37, four seasons after the start of the decline.

This season, Ben's rebounding has dropped by 1, his blocks have decreased only slightly, and his steals have actually increased. So it's not clear from the numbers that he has started to decline.

But from the naked eye, it appears that Ben has started to decline. I mean if you ask 100 people whether Ben played better this year or the year before, probably at least 95 are gonna say he played better the year before. That's not hard science, but it's dispositive enough for me: Ben has started to decline.

If Rodman is an analog for Ben, that gives Ben about 4 more years of high level play. Maybe a four year contract won't be so bad.

Black Dynamite

05-14-2006, 03:16 PM

I agree with the last sentance, but can you honestly say he has the same impact consistantly as he did 3-4 years ago? Go back and watch some games from back then. You will be amazed at the difference. As it sits right now, he brings that energy he used to bring every night maybe once out of every 5 games. And I still haven't seen it in the playoffs.
can you honestly say we wouldnt an overly flawed wannabe phoenix team if Ben wasnt there? And honestly Ben has ben our defense in the playoffs. theres a Center you'd rather have switching on these light zones we're playing on lebron? he's the only guy crashing the boards besides dyess. maybe his "numbers" are down but his effect on our championship defense is as potent as ever.

Black Dynamite

05-14-2006, 04:01 PM

"It would be in a shooting stance," Jones told the Cleveland Plain Dealer. "There would be a string in the back, and when you pull the string it would say funny things. It would talk about teamwork and moving the basketball."

Wallace supplied a great punch line that we can't top.

"What are (kids) going to do with that figure, play with it for only 14 seconds?" Wallace said.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060511/SPORTS03/605110438/1051

Article Originally found by ZeebNeeb
http://www.yaysports.com/nba/images/ben%20wallace%2002.png

realistic

05-14-2006, 04:25 PM

can you honestly say we wouldnt an overly flawed wannabe phoenix team if Ben wasnt there? And honestly Ben has ben our defense in the playoffs. theres a Center you'd rather have switching on these light zones we're playing on lebron? he's the only guy crashing the boards besides dyess. maybe his "numbers" are down but his effect on our championship defense is as potent as ever. We wouldn't be an overly flawed wannabe phoenix team if Ben were not here. Chauncey Billups and Rasheed would still be excellent defenders, and Tayshaun would be a very good defender. Rip and whoever we plugged in for Ben would be adequate. Our offense would also open up as teams wouldn't be able to play 5 on 4.

We're a better team w/ Ben Wallace--no doubt about that. A significantly better team. Dramatically better? Don't know. And I'm not sure I want to find out :)

But I'm sensing from some posts--or maybe just from the sum of them--that it's blasphemous to suggest Ben has lost a step. It shouldn't be. Ben is a heck of a teammate, a heck of a guy, but everybody gets old. It's only a matter of when.

Kstat

05-14-2006, 04:31 PM

We can win a title with ben wallace.

Without him, we can't that's all we need to know on the subject.

And this year's DPOY is arguably his hardest-earned. Its easy to look bad when your whole team isnt built around your defensive skills.

I'll say it again: Ben now realize how hard Bill Russel's job was, playing great help defense on a celtics team that allowed around 120ppg per season.

Black Dynamite

05-14-2006, 04:41 PM

We're a better team w/ Ben Wallace--no doubt about that.
you're not living up to your name on that one.:p

micknugget

05-14-2006, 04:46 PM

I guess you guys are seeing more in him than I am. Don't get me wrong, I know what he can do and how valuable he has been so far but have you watched him lately? I mean really watched him? More and more he is the last one back on defense as he walks (not runs) back up the floor. He doesn't even try on a lot of rebounds that he used to go after. He often looks either tired and lazy and this is in the playoffs. His D is still great but has slipped some and he's not getting any younger. I'm playing devil's advocate in saying that a 5 or 6 year max deal might be too much. I think with a resonable replacement for Ben that this team is still a Championship contender. If Ben got hurt today and was out for the playoffs I think that we would dstill have a pretty good chance of winning it all.

Kstat

05-14-2006, 04:54 PM

FP22

05-14-2006, 05:21 PM

can you honestly say we wouldnt an overly flawed wannabe phoenix team if Ben wasnt there? And honestly Ben has ben our defense in the playoffs. theres a Center you'd rather have switching on these light zones we're playing on lebron? he's the only guy crashing the boards besides dyess. maybe his "numbers" are down but his effect on our championship defense is as potent as ever.

That's why I said "I agree with the last sentance". The fact that Dice seems utterly incapable of providing solid help D this year makes Ben absolutely crucial. I think a lot of that is coaching though. If we had Popovich or *shudder* LB here it wouldn't be as big an issue, but as it sits we rely on Ben to be anything but a glorified version of the Suns. Flip seems to believe that every defensive lapse is because of some problem with offensive execution or just "missing shots".

Again, I said we've got to pay the man, because there are no replacements, but it doesn't mean I have to think he's worth that ridiculous money. I also don't get the "He played for cheap before, so we're paying him for that" theory. WTF is the point of a good deal if you just have to break the bank to reimburse him later on?

Uncle Mxy

05-14-2006, 06:14 PM

Ben's rebounding rate has been relatively constant since Cliffy left. He's getting less nominally rebounds because he's played less (meaningful) minutes this year.

AFAICT, shot blocking is de-emphasized as a result of the offensive changes over the past couple years. League-wise, you have to go back to the 1980s to find less % of shot attempts blocked as in 2006, after having been pretty constant for the past 10-15 years. Back then, the pace was faster so the overall block totals don't reflect it as much. Make the inside more foul-prone and encourage three point scorers and you'll get less blocks. Fortunately, Ben can go on the perimeter and isn't foul-prone.

I think Ben's going to be fine for a good long while, as long as he doesn't turn into a foul machine.

I just don't get why he'd go in with Tellem of all people, unless Tellem's doing this for less than a 4% cut for some strange reason.

Gecko

05-14-2006, 09:40 PM

Matt

05-14-2006, 09:44 PM

The Pistons without Ben Wallace for the next four years? OUCH.

that sums it up for me. until we decide to rebuild (can't see it happening in 4 years), i'm down with whatever it takes to keep the "best five alive" (sheed) together.

in a league that's incredibly shallow in talented big man, i'm all for keeping Ben on our squad. i don't really care how old he is.....some young, inexpensive big man isn't going to bring 1% of what Ben brings, even if Ben's on the downside of his career.

Kstat

05-14-2006, 10:00 PM

Here's the deal on Ben and re-signing him.

If we look back on these playoffs, The Pistons win the ship and he stood out, especially in the finals, and i mean stand out to the point of being one of the 3 best players out there then very few will squawk about a 4 yr 50 mill'ish deal.

If however the Pistons get bounced before the Finals or Ben is just so-so even in the finals then the debate will be in full force (amongst fans only since Dumars mind is already made).

Most opinions should be held until sometime after mid June.

My opinion on Ben Wallace is not going to be formed over the next month.

It's already formed.

Ben Wallace IS the Pistons. He stays a Piston, he retires a Piston. I dont care if he gets a huge deal, because he DESERVES a huge deal.

I'm shocked and dismayed that anybody here would even CONSIDER letting Ben walk.

Some of this new offense has gotten your heads too big. We WIN GAMES WITH DEFENSE.

For fuck's sake, why is this even a discussion?

Black Dynamite

05-14-2006, 10:11 PM

i think the precedent was set. Which is do what it takes to keep the core(i.e. sheed and tay getting deals that people questioned when they got them) and use the real scouting and maneuvering skill in keeping the bench knit together.

things like the improvement of delfino, amir, maxiell, and maybe(big maybe) acker are all going to factor in. not all of them have to step up at once. but we are gonna lose atleast 2 of them before the 4 year span hits. either way its all about the core. i wonder if anyone who saw how badly we fucked up keeping the bad boys era together has forgotten that episode.

detroitsportscity

05-14-2006, 10:55 PM

I wouldn't let Ben go easily.

Chicago would have to offer Max $, and maybe years, then give up the Knicks pick and some other players/picks. Aldridge, Deng, and Rondo would do it for me, as much as I love Ben.

b-diddy

05-14-2006, 11:18 PM

someone else made this point, but i think its great:

theres probably not 1 team in the nba thats a chauncy billups away from a title (and im his biggest fan) but theres probably 6 teams (phx, dallas, san an, miami, new jersey, cleveland) who would be clear cut favorites if you added ben to them.

give ben his money. i dont care if its a max money/max years contract. give it to him.

i'll be blunt. im going to personally kick bill davidson's ass if he doesnt give ben his money after he traded darko for a bag of beans.

ps: is arn tellem one of those agents that get in the way? is he going to demand ben get into a big market? demand the pistons sign other tellem clients? i doubt ben would be cool with that, but who knows.

Glenn

05-15-2006, 07:42 AM

If we let him go we do nothing to help our future. We'll never be below the salary cap far enough to afford a FA, so it's simply a matter of spending the old man's money. Letting him go from a championship contending team to worry about resigning Delfno or whatever is stupid.

Truth.

05-15-2006, 08:36 AM

For fuck's sake, why is this even a discussion?

Amen.

As far as his stats being down (barely), I think the reason is clear: teams avoid Ben Wallace, whereas they didn't before. They don't bother challenging him, because they know they'll come out on the losing end. All Ben needs to do is stand in the paint on D and the entire game changes. How many times have you seen some hapless chump completely miss a layup because his head's on a swivel looking for Ben? You can almost count on one of those per game. These are professionals and Ben makes them forget about how to make a layup.

When Ben sits, then teams try to drive the lane. When he's in there, they look for other ways to score. That's the type of stuff that doesn't show up in the stats, but completely changes the game.

Pay him, pay him well. If Ben doesn't retire a Piston, I'll be sick.

Glenn

05-15-2006, 10:00 AM

Bow to Latham

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060515/SPORTS03/605150367/1051

BY KRISTA LATHAM
FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITER

May 15, 2006

NEW VOICE: Ben Wallace will be an unrestricted free agent this summer, and he'll have a new voice negotiating for him. Wallace hired mega agent Arn Tellem this week, going away from his original intention to simply hire an attorney to work for an hourly wage.

Tellem will be paid hourly, but he is not exactly an unknown. He also represents Tracy McGrady and baseball stars such as Jason Giambi, Barry Zito and Nomar Garciaparra.

"I sat down and had a meeting with him, and the way he presented himself," Wallace said. "Compared to the other guys, I thought he was the best for me."

Wallace will be the biggest name on the free-agent market, but he has indicated all season that he has no intention of trying to find more money somewhere else. The Pistons are expected to make him an offer for up to four years at around $11 million or $12 million a year.

Wallace didn't want anyone to read into his hiring of Tellem that he's trying to play hardball with the Pistons.

"Nah, nah, that's not the case at all," he said. "Sometimes you need someone else to talk for you, it helps to take your emotions out of the thing."

For now, though, Wallace isn't thinking about contracts.

"I'm looking for another, what, 10 more wins to get this trophy." Wallace said. "That's all I'm looking for right now."

Fool

05-15-2006, 10:06 AM

KRISTA LATHAM][/SIZE]
FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITER

May 15, 2006

NEW VOICE: Ben Wallace will be an unrestricted free agent this summer, and he'll have a new voice negotiating for him. Wallace hired mega agent Arn Tellem this week, going away from his original intention to simply hire an attorney to work for an hourly wage.

Tellem will be paid hourly,

Was this is the other report? If so, I didn't notice it. If not, way to go Krista as its an important fact.

It looks to me like the plan is still pretty much the same. Just pay a guy to work the fine print. Taymelo, where were you with your 220/hr?

Black Dynamite

05-15-2006, 10:22 AM

taymelo could be tellem.:eek:

Anthony

05-15-2006, 10:51 AM

For fuck's sake, why is this even a discussion?

Because people need something to talk about.

Ben will get his money, and the pistons will win 2 more championships in the next 5 or 6 years.

It makes me laugh that people would actually let him walk at any price.

realistic

05-15-2006, 11:08 AM

If Ben demands a max deal, then he can walk his ass to Chicago.

Black Dynamite

05-15-2006, 11:27 AM

If Ben demands a max deal, then he can walk his ass to Chicago.
not being your name yet i see. lets all be you(realistic). no he wont walk his ass anywhere. YOU arent paying him a max deal, so i dont get the animosity against him getting paid. :confused: you'll be rooting for a team with a legitimate shot to win the title for 4 more years(we coulda won it last year with no bench production whatsoever). its better to let davidson worry about paying him. you must've been real crabby when we signed tayshaun:p

realistic

05-15-2006, 12:23 PM

Do you think Joe will offer Ben a max deal--yes or no?

Pharaoh

05-15-2006, 12:41 PM

Uncle Mxy

05-15-2006, 01:10 PM

My only minor objections to paying Ben the max are:

- He doesn't do it at both ends of the court. If he were an elite offensive player with good character but no D on another team (e.g. Michael Redd, Antawn Jamison), we'd be calling him overpaid. I'd love to give Ben some incentive that's a function of free throw %. Pay him supermax money if he gets 60%+. :) I figure the max makes sense because of his unique skillset and impact.

- What do we pay Chauncey? Heck, if Amir turns out to be a superstud, what would we have to pay to keep him? Having talents like Chauncey and Amir are good problems to have, of course. Let's hope Arnie Kander keeps 'em all in playing shape.

realistic

05-15-2006, 01:23 PM

micknugget

05-15-2006, 01:24 PM

Kstat

05-15-2006, 01:36 PM

Fool

05-15-2006, 01:41 PM

Max money? Yes - he's fucking earned it and if we don't give it to him the entire organisation looks fucking cheap.

Ben played his ass off on a shitty contract and never complained. He didn't even opt out when he had the chance. The guy is a fucking Saint!

Now, when it's time to give him what we owe him some people wanna bend him over the table? Fuck off. We owe him the max for 4 years at a minimum.

The only reason he doesn't get the maximum number of years is because of the over-36 rule.

I agree with the vast majority: This is not an issue.To Stackman, or to anyone else who knows the signing rules: In theory could we sign Ben to a 4 year max deal at this very moment, or must we wait until the beginning of a designated contract signing period which starts after the season?
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#52
A contract cannot be renegotiated between March 1 and June 30 of any year.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#52
a team over the salary cap cannot renegotiate a contract.

The Pistons are over the cap. ben can't sign a contract with anyone until July 12 this year unless he wants to sign a minimum contract
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#89

Tahoe

05-15-2006, 01:49 PM

Ben was the last person that I thought would feel he had to hire someone like Tellem to get his dough. Why does he think he had to do that? But he surprised me when he didn't go back into the game too.

I know he likes Detroit, but if he needs to go check out what its like to play on another team...I wouldn't want to stop a man from doin what he wants to do.

We couldn't fill the defense hole that Ben would leave but maybe the new player would have a little more Offense to balance it all out.

Sign Ben...I don't care about the owners money, I care about restricting JoeD's ability to make moves in the future. But most players are signed long term anyway, other than CBill.

micknugget

05-15-2006, 02:11 PM

I think with a resonable replacement for Ben that this team is still a Championship contender.

Name one.

Please, I could use a good laugh.

If Ben got hurt today and was out for the playoffs I think that we would dstill have a pretty good chance of winning it all.

LOL

There are quite a few guys that the Pistons could get to play center. It's true that they wouldn't be as good as Ben but since their aren't a lot of quality big men, we would still be a VERY good team. Five of the Eight teams still in the playoffs are without star centers(6 of 8 if you consider TD a PF). Apparently by your "LOL" you think that everyone else on the Pistons sucks and we are nothing without Ben. So much for having 4 All-Stars!!

You're avoiding my question.

Who in this league could we get this summer that would replace Ben Wallace?

And my "LOL" had to do with the fact you think Ben is expendable, which is the biggest load of bullshit ever.

WIthout Ben we would be a 50+ win team. But we would have ZERO chance of winning a championship. That alone makes ben irriplacable.

Only a fucking idiot puts a price tag on a dynasty.

We aren't a dynasty just yet. We aren't even guarenteed to win it this year. But to answer your question (assuming that we didn't do a S&T with Ben) there are some solid (not star..I said reasonable) Centers avail in Pryzbilla, Zo, L. Wright, etc. Another option would be to play Sheed at C some (he already does when Ben is on the bench). I think that Ben is reasonable and will take a 3 or 4 year deal for 10-12 mil per and we'll all be happy. If he wants something like a 6 year deal at the Max then I think that Joe D would have to consider letting him leave.

Black Dynamite

05-15-2006, 04:00 PM

realistic

05-15-2006, 04:20 PM

Black Dynamite

05-15-2006, 04:44 PM

Do you think Joe will offer Ben a max deal--yes or no?
i think he'll start the offer off at 11-12 million. where it ends could be max. but will he just throwing 20 million at him? no thats bad negotiations on any level. a better question is will we pay him if the negotiation goes to max. And the answer yes. A "better question"? But that's the same one I just asked you. :)

Anyway, thanks for the answer.
no. your question was will he offer him max. the answer to that is no. he's not going to offer him max money off the top. but he will pay him that if negotiations reach that point.
"pay" woulda been a better term than "offer".

Tahoe

05-18-2006, 09:06 PM

FP22

05-18-2006, 09:33 PM

Tahoe

05-18-2006, 09:41 PM

Ahhhhh Shhhhhit...'reasonable' now we're putting qualifiers on the replacement.

Gecko

05-18-2006, 09:57 PM

Answer me this. Does Ben lose any leverage in his contract negotiations if the Pistons lose tomorrow night or did he already earn the contract he's gonna get based on the last 5 years?

Black Dynamite

05-18-2006, 09:59 PM

Matt

05-18-2006, 10:02 PM

Tahoe

05-18-2006, 10:52 PM

i think it has to.

the same way if we win a championship this season, Ben has more leverage to get what he wants....whatever figure that may be.

hell, if we lose tomorrow, i'd say the odds increase (albeit slightly) that Ben might consider going elsewhere.

I'm not convinced that he wants to be here. I think he has considered going elsewhere. I don't think you need Tellem to deal with JoeD.

I find it odd that Ben seems to be getting a pass in all the 'who's to blame' talk. If he's our leader that wants to get paid, then its not just about you showing up, you need to be able to get your teamates going too. Thats a leaders job.

Tahoe

05-18-2006, 11:03 PM

Answer me this. Does Ben lose any leverage in his contract negotiations if the Pistons lose tomorrow night or did he already earn the contract he's gonna get based on the last 5 years?

Why is it that the team always 'owes' the player if they play better than their contract, but the players never gives anything back? Its illegal for JoeD to give him a wink about taking care of him in the future.

I could see an early exit working both ways, if Ben and Tellem convince JoeD that Ben isn't the prob and needs X to get the team back to the promise land.

edit...
and Ben isn't the problem, but I don't think CBill, Rip Tay or Sheed are either, its seems like we need some new blood somewhere. Please show up tomorrow and shut me up.

micknugget

05-19-2006, 12:08 AM

I've changed my mind about not offering Ben the max. I say give him what he wants and then trade his sorry butt as soon as we can. He hasn't played very well at all this series and more and more i'm starting to think that his offensive and free throw shooting deficiencies really lessen his overall value (rebounding and defense). He seems to have lost a step against the Cavs and was really quick to blast his teammates. I'm kinda losing interest in him.

UxKa

05-19-2006, 08:29 AM

it all comes back to:

replace him with what that would be even remotely equal? and lets not just talk on the floor, but the image, the tickets, etc. i dont see anything out there even for on the floor. we lose ben we lose a lot more than a few rebounds a game. i wont lie, i am biased. the only pistons jersey i own is a ben jersey. but still, its like takin $300 out of the ATM at 4am, C'MON!!!

Gecko

05-24-2006, 12:38 PM

Ok, where did those posts go where I was getting burned at the stake for stating my eyes were seeing something different in Ben's play than the +/- stats were showing? Oh yeah those posts got tossed into the Terror Dome. Anyone want to continue to argue with me on this issue? Sorry, but something with Ben isn't right. As I have been writing for a while I like Ben, don't think he's easily replacable but he is a prima-donna at times.

The losses have happened for a shitload of reasons and most players share the blame, that i understand. But not every player is the face of this organization like Ben is and has been. When your 2 best players aren't bringing it then your gonna lose plain and simple.

I contend there is an issue with Ben and it's affected the entire team.

Where are you Comrade and Mxy? Let's hear from you. Maybe Gutz can feel me now and relate better after seeing a few more games?

Here's Sharps article.

<waiting for the first person to say "Sharp doesn't know shit" post>

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060524/SPORTS03/605240434/1048/SPORTS

DREW SHARP: Big Ben needs to chime

BY DREW SHARP
FREE PRESS COLUMNIST

With Ben Wallace, right, on the floor, the Pistons seem to play 4-on-5 in their half-court offense.

Ben Wallace's funks are becoming more noticeable, as well as the lapses in his signature perpetual intensity.

He turns it on when the mood strikes, suggesting that he's either deeply bothered with his complete removal from the Pistons' half-court offense or that there's a steadily dwindling reserve of energy in his tank.

Something isn't right. (Exactly what I have been saying, I am just earlier to the party than most here I guess).

The face of the Pistons is wearing a sulk, and it's an expression shared throughout the city after the Pistons fell to the Heat, 91-86, in Game 1 of the Eastern Conference finals.

There's certainly no cause for widespread panic because the Pistons find themselves in an early hole.

Isn't burying themselves with their own shovel part of their M.O.?

But there should be concern that the 4-on-5 offensive philosophy they've adopted this season might not cut it against a Miami team with more offensive weapons at its disposal this season.

There's no hiding Ben this time.

He's the pulse of the team. He sets the tempo, igniting the frenetic intensity that's defined this franchise's resurgence the last five years.
But if the offense continues to struggle, don't be surprised if Flip Saunders is left with no option but to give Antonio McDyess more of Ben's minutes in the remainder of this series. ( Something else I have called for in recent games).

It seems that when the shots don't fall for the Pistons, their defense suffers. The once impenetrable Wallace Wall has too easily revealed cracks in recent games.

"When Chauncey (Billups) and Rip (Hamilton) aren't dropping their shots," said McDyess, "something's got to be wrong. I don't think there's anything wrong with our offensive flow or anything like that. We're just not making shots."

But it's much easier to defend a team when there's one guy on the floor whom you don't have to take seriously.

If Saunders is such an offensive genius, couldn't he have found a way to keep Wallace from becoming a caricature offensively?

Nobody's asking for double figures scoring a game from Ben, who is an unrestricted free agent this summer. But is it asking too much for a player who might be just weeks away from commanding the highest salary on this roster that he's at least occasionally relevant in the half-court offense?
He only touched the ball three times on offense in the first half.

I'm not talking shots. I'm talking touches, actually wrapping his hands around the basketball. He might as well have been invisible.

His lack of touches permitted Shaquille O'Neal and Alonzo Mourning to sag further underneath the basket, blocking the Pistons' access to the basket and clearing room for the Heat to grab defensive rebounds following the Pistons' endless array of missed jumpers.

Wallace seeks redemption in this conference final. He was disappointing in the Cleveland series when measured against the standard he established as the soul of the franchise's "Goin' to Work" credo. (huh, yo Sharp but what about Mxy's +/-????) (How dare Sharp present arguments without backing them up with stats from 82games.com the authority on how players are playing!)

There were some timely energy surges -- the important rebound, the wily drawing of the offensive charge -- but not enough power overall.
The Heat remains the biggest opportunity for Ben to prove his value. He's always appreciated the challenge of battling the mountain that is Shaq Daddy. He always relished bumping paint in the post with the big fella, gladly taking him one-on-one defensively, wearing his bruises after a rugged game like red badges of courage.

Shaq was hardly a factor, but the Heat didn't really need him with the contributions from newcomers Antoine Walker (17 points) and Gary Payton (14 points).
The evening's darkest irony was Shaq employing the Hack-a-Ben late in the fourth quarter with the Pistons slowly inching back into contention.
Ben missed both free throws.

"I think you have to take your chances on that one possession," O'Neal said. "It isn't something that I would make a habit of doing. I didn't want them to come out of that timeout and get a three and gain some momentum, so that's the only reason I did it."

It's obviously bothered Ben this season that the coaches and his teammates blatantly ignore him offensively. He's a proud man. But there were times Tuesday when the Pistons looked better when he wasn't on the floor.
And who would have ever believed that was possible?

Uncle Mxy

05-24-2006, 02:42 PM

Ben had a fine game (for Ben) against Shaq, stealing the ball, drawing fouls, and snarfing rebounds. He had a bleah game against Zo, though Zo did most of his damage against us while Rasheed was on him at C.

News flash 1 -- the other team is gonna get more rebounds if all we ever do is take dumbass jumpshot. as that is just as much a 4 on 5 situation as whenever we're not using Ben as a (small) part of the offense. Drew Sharp should know that, but probably doesn't.

News flash 2 -- putting Rasheed's ankle against a real C doesn't cut it. The only time Rasheed looked good defensively at C was when Ben drew enough fouls to make Shaq cautious. Whenever Ben goes out, Dale Davis should go in. Whenever Rasheed goes out, McDyess should go in. Flip Saunders should know that, but clearly doesn't. Never do we put Ben + Lindsey in -- that's just dumb in the long term. Dale's no great offensive force, but he's more balanced than Ben.

Having said that, I agree (and have always agreed) with the part about getting Ben more involved with the offense, that being one of the lessons from Larry Brown that never took hold. Is that Ben's fault for not being involved, or Flip's fault because Flip apparently loves players taking only fucking jumpshots?

I also agree with the part about him not being the most relevant player in the Cavs Game 7, having an ok but not great game. Of course, my +/- comments were made before Game 7, about Games 1-6, and I saw plenty of "Rasheed + McDyess gets owned" antics down the stretch.

Anthony

05-24-2006, 02:45 PM

I remember when we used to start games with getting Ben Wallace a play going to the basket, and whether he converted or not, that set the tone for the entire game and we would just kill mother fuckers. We need to get back to that. Fuck flip for not even getting Ben the least bit involved. That pick and dive to the basket that he does with RIP is unstopable. I dont know why the dont run that every fucking time they can.

Gecko

05-24-2006, 02:58 PM

Uncle Mxy

05-24-2006, 05:10 PM

At the time, my posts in support of Ben were in the context of "who wasn't producing" in the Cleveland series. There were a bunch of people all too eager to shitcan Ben, when Ben was a force in he games and clearly wasn't the big problem compared to Mr. Little Shot. It was clear as hell that when we switched Rasheed to C (or the Cavs forced a mismatch), mobile fuckers like Sideshow Bob would "become dominant".

Overall, as far as I'm concerned, no one has stood out defensively like 2004. The rules changed to favor offense in the form of fouls, which emphasizes people who can penetrate and|or shoot high-% FTs, and de-emphasizes people who can't make their fucking foul shots. It's hard for me to take into account just how much "defense" is worth in that light.

Recently, I thought that our shotblocking sucked this year. All our players shot-blocking numbers were down from 2004 (or 2005 in McDyess' case), even adjusting for minutes. I was quite surprised to find out we were in 3rd for the league and that the % of shots blocked league-wide is at its lowest since the '80s. If you can penetrate, that would-be block attempt is far more likely to turn into a foul. If you can't, you play the perimeter, and the % of three attempts league-wide is up 10-15% from two years ago . Ben has adapted by defending at the perimeter more, while still staying out of foul trouble. There's no other C that can challenge a PG the way he can.

So, with the way the rules are, what does that make Ben worth? I dunno. He's the heart and soul of the team. Simply the fact that we don't have to platoon him with someone else because he can stay in a fucking game and not foul is huge these days. But look at what happened with Trenton Hassell in Minny. He got paid because he was a defensive stalwart, the handcheck rules changed, his D sucked, and he's no longer worth the money.

How to "fix" Ben? I want Ben to swallow his pride and shoot the FTs granny style if he has to -- anything so we can split the fucking pair. Get Rick Barry or Bill Laimbeer or Ed Palubinskas or someone to be his goddamn FT coach and commit to making those fuckers. He shoots in a poofy fucking way that can be fixed. It has nothing to do with his hands. It has everything to do with his positioning (bend your knees for real) and his routine (or lack thereof). Then he becomes enough of an offensive tool to be useful enough to have handling the ball, and that feeds the defense.

Gecko

05-24-2006, 08:42 PM

I can dig the above post.

Glenn

05-25-2006, 08:51 AM

A peace accord has been reached.

Welcome back, Geck.

FP22

05-25-2006, 11:23 AM

Saw this in a Chicago tribune article about Aldridge/Bulls/Tellem...

Plus, Aldridge is working with agent Arn Tellem, who has been close with the Bulls and remains grateful for letting one of his clients enhance his career by playing with the Suns. The Bulls were prepared to just pay off Tim Thomas and let him sit out the playoffs, but have endured the critics since Thomas has been invaluable to the Suns. The talk is Tellem will work to get Aldridge to the Bulls, if possible.

I just don't like the sound of this stuff. The Bulls are our main competitors for Ben in the offseason, and Tellem owes them a favor. I know the article has nothing to do with Ben, but the fact that Tellem and the Bulls have been in connection.

Uncle Mxy

05-27-2006, 09:28 AM

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060527/SPORTS03/605270368/1051

NEW ACQUAINTANCE: Wallace said Thursday that he spoke with his wife and financial adviser about his upcoming free agency before selecting the well-known Arn Tellem as his new agent. "I was talking to a couple guys," he said. "He presented himself a little better than the other guys. We've got a better understanding."

DennyMcLain

05-27-2006, 10:53 AM

Chicago's gonna make an offer.

Where's that Bulls troll when we need him. Who was it, Kevin the Lad?

I'm telling ya. Joe D better pony up the $$$$, or Piston fan will NEVER let him live it down.

Glenn

05-31-2006, 05:03 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/news/story?id=2464207

Should the Pistons re-sign Ben Wallace to a contract of approximately five years, $60 million?

Broussard: Ben is the heart and soul of that team, but he'll be 32 at the start of next season. I'd give him 4 years, $48 million, but I'd hesitate to go five/60.

------

Bucher: I would love to see Ben get paid because he's one of my all-time favorite personalities in the league, but if I were Joe Dumars the most I'd give him is three years. Big Ben's entire game is built on his energy and that is beginning to wane at times. I'll pay him $10 million a year for the next two-three years, but I wouldn't go beyond that.

--------

Hollinger: If I was them I wouldn't … except that I don't really see any alternative. Detroit's time is right now, and they're not going to find an instant replacement for Wallace easily while they're over the cap. Plus, Dumars runs the risk of alienating the other four guys if he lets Ben walk.

--------

Sheridan: They seem to have backed themselves into a corner on this one by trading Darko Milicic and Carlos Arroyo to free up money for Ben, but they'll get diminishing returns over the next several years if they do, and they'll have to spend another big chunk of money next summer when Chauncey Billups opts out and becomes a free agent.

---------

Stein: I'd like to think that the Pistons' struggles in these playoffs will convince Ben, a la Manu Ginobili and Bruce Bowen, to take a little less than he was expecting to increase the Pistons' flexibility for tweaking the roster. Probably not a reasonable expectation.

metr0man

05-31-2006, 07:39 PM

I always get worried when players' wives are involved.

Tahoe

06-01-2006, 01:41 AM

I'm still highly shocked that Ben felt the need to hire an agent like Tellem. I thought Ben trusted JoeD or the Org enough to know that he wouldn't need to get an agent to get his dough.

Whatever Big Ben...thought you were different, but you are just like the rest.

Uncle Mxy

06-01-2006, 06:47 AM

I'm more shocked that Tellem would do an hourly deal, though. That's not what superstar sports agents do. They want a %, and want to work out all business deals, not just the team contract.

Glenn

06-02-2006, 08:26 AM

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/423061p-357064c.html

After block, Ben rejects Shaq notion

By MITCH LAWRENCE
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

MIAMI - On your typical NBA day, Shaquille O'Neal has almost no use for Ben Wallace. In O'Neal's mind, Wallace is among the legion of annoying defenders who resort to flopping to get calls and whining to the refs when they can't contend with the Diesel's physical play.

So it came as no surprise that after Miami had its lead cut to 3-2 in the Eastern Conference finals, Shaq gave Wallace no credit for coming up with one of the great all-time blocks against O'Neal, a play that the Pistons hope will continue to resonate here tonight in Game6.

"He thought I fouled him?" said Wallace, when told that O'Neal said that Wallace got more than just the ball when he rejected Shaq's shot and sent O'Neal sprawling to the court in Detroit's 91-78 victory. "I'm not surprised he said that. All I'll say is...it's all good."

If the Pistons come all the way back from the 3-1 deficit to win this series, Wallace's play is certain to be their defining playoff moment, just as Tayshaun Prince's sensational block on Reggie Miller's breakaway layup in the 2004 East Finals fueled the Pistons' championship run. Prince's full-court dash and swat became an instant classic, but sending O'Neal Earth-bound puts Wallace's rejection in another realm.

"Shaq is still the toughest matchup in this league, still the strongest guy around, and for Ben to do that was huge for this team," said Detroit's veteran center Dale Davis. "We had to win. We'd be going home if we didn't."

Wallace's third-quarter block set the defensive tone, as the Pistons held Miami to only 13 fourth-quarter points in sending the Heat to just its third loss in its last 12 playoff games.

Before Wallace's block, his biggest impact during the series came before Game4 when he took Flip Saunders to task for not practicing the Pistons hard enough at the defensive end. His comments did not sit well with Detroit management, especially with Wallace entering free agency this offseason. There are already rumblings within the organization that no matter Wallace's asking price, this will be his last go-round with the Pistons.

But he left the Palace of Auburn Hills late Wednesday night to the cheers of adoring fans who stayed late to send the team off to Miami. When someone in a No.3 Pistons jersey yelled out, "Great block, Ben!" he took the same right hand he used to stuff Shaq and raised it in a celebratory salute.

Originally published on June 2, 2006

EDIT: I changed the thread title also from "Ben hires Arn Tellem" to something more all encompassing.

Black Dynamite

06-02-2006, 09:34 AM

the ny daily news has the inside track on organization rumblings?:confused:

hmmm next thing you know, the chicago tribune will have a rumblings story of their own along with proof that Ben is already heading to chitown. :rolleyes:

they should stick to Zeke news. Either way tayshaun needs help on offense as does ben on defense. but ben has been solid IMO on defense. he has no Elden campbell(and we refuse to use Cato) to give a legitimate resistence to shaq when he's out of the game and has probally played more minutes against him than maybe ever in his career. I think he's done well. he's had to adjust as the series has gone further, but he's hung in and found energy playing every other night with a 300 pound lazy gorilla leaning on him and elbowing him in the grill more than he did mutumbo in the finals.

Gecko

06-02-2006, 01:09 PM

Pharaoh

06-02-2006, 01:18 PM

Actually, I tend to agree that very few reporters know anything about the league.

They talk about shit they don't understand (the CBA) all the time and make out like some kickarse trade is possible, only for fans to find it isnt. They talk about this guy and that guy and what that means and all that shit and just STFU

I know more about the fucking game than these fucks so why am I gonna read an article that plays the "What if Miami hit their usual % of FT's?"

Um, what if I shove my hand down your fucking throat and squeeze?

Fuck every fucking article ever written

Glenn

06-02-2006, 01:20 PM

Fuck every fucking article ever written

New sig.

Pharaoh

06-02-2006, 01:28 PM

It's all just bullshit. Oh, poor Wade has a cold. And this is news? Fuck, it's a couple of lines at the most.

"Wade's nose is running and he feels really sick but will soldier on because that's what professional athletes making millions should do.What a great guy!"

See, it doesn't take up much space.

Where are the articles featuring in-depth shit about our O or our D? What about the same for their O and D?

You will not read an in-depth article like that from your average reporter because he/she wouldn't have a fucking clue what a pick and roll was or a pick and pop or a sideline triangle or a 2-3 zone is supposed to look like.

Fuck play NBA Live and watch the offensive playbook. Learn something, bitch

Just fuck 'em.

Pharaoh

06-02-2006, 01:30 PM

I thought this was a better line:

what if I shove my hand down your fucking throat and squeeze?

but your sig should reflect how you feel.

Glenn

06-02-2006, 01:32 PM

P, what do you think about Charley Rosen's stuff?

He breaks shit down about as much as anybody that I've seen.

Oh, sometimes he's full of shit, but he knows his X's and O's at least.

Pharaoh

06-02-2006, 01:42 PM

I don't know - I don't read a lot of articles

Post some links of his regular work and I'll let you know.

Glenn

06-02-2006, 02:11 PM

I don't know - I don't read a lot of articles

Post some links of his regular work and I'll let you know.

Let's continue this here: http://wtfdetroit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5799

Anthony

06-02-2006, 10:47 PM

Nice knowen you Ben.

Fekz

06-02-2006, 11:12 PM

na na na na, na na na na,

You know the rest of the song.

Peace out Ben, fuckin crybaby.

I can't believe I just said that.. thought Ben and the word diva would never go hand in hand, but it does, and it's about that time. I don't mind losing a key piece if he won't play. I rather expect mediocrity, then expect greatness and get smashed by deformed voltron made out of garbage cans ass teams like Miami.

FP22

06-02-2006, 11:27 PM

Someone just asked Ben something about coming back in the next year in the post-game. His response...

No Comment
Not even the usual, "well, I like it here and want to be back blah blah blah". He's either playing incredible hardball or he doesn't want to be back. Either way he's looking like a bit of a punk in my eyes. Atleast acknowledge that you would prefer to be back here.

Lindsey gave a bit of a strange response to the Ben question as well.

Anthony

06-02-2006, 11:31 PM

He hasnt said anything about it all year. Everytime he was asked he said no comment or he's not going to talk about it.

FP22

06-02-2006, 11:55 PM

He hasnt said anything about it all year. Everytime he was asked he said no comment or he's not going to talk about it.

He's never been specific, but usually he atleast makes it sound decent saying "I don't wan't to think about that right now. We've got a job to take care of", etc. Why the hell would he say "No Comment" if he actually wanted to come back?

Anthony

06-02-2006, 11:57 PM

I'm probably reaching here, but maybe he just didnt want to talk about it at this moment. I mean, this is a pretty huge loss. I just hope he comes back. He's my favorite piston of all time.

BubblesTheLion

06-03-2006, 12:13 AM

Man, fuck anyone who isn't down with Ben Wallace.

The real problem on this team has been RASHEED WALLACE AND BILLUPS.
And these guys are MY FAVORITES, atleast they were.

They are why the ball was not moving , they are why this team has played like shit. Billups has completely bought into his own hype, and his decision making was pre Detroit all playoffs.

I didn't see Ben Wallace playing poorly with his oppertunities on offense.

This team lost because THEY WOULD NOT SHARE THE FUCKING ROCK!

Teamwork got them to where they were, and Teamwork sunk the team.
isolation plays by billups, poor passings, no off the ball movement, sheed sleepwalking every game.
Billups passing up easy looks and forcing his teamates into contested 3's Sheed not even playing defense.

Getting rid of Ben will be the stupidest fuckign thing his franchise could do. The problem with this gutless team was heart. And you want to get rid of one of the guys who still has it?

Wow.

Anthony

06-03-2006, 12:31 AM

I love this guy!

So right you are.

Kstat

06-03-2006, 12:33 AM

Billups has had some serious personal issues that have been alluded to by those in the know at WDFN, but apparently its private.

I need another year before I decide wether Billups fucked up, or he was just fucked up in the head.

BIG BEN'S FRO

06-03-2006, 12:38 AM

gotta agree with Bubbles. Billups was the biggest problem this playoffs, followed by Sheed. Ben and Rip were next. I don't think anyone can really fault Tayshaun's play overall.

I would resign Ben and Chauncey, because there just aren't better alternatives out there.

metr0man

06-03-2006, 12:42 AM

i'd prefer to keep Ben at a hefty but not backbreaking 3-4 year contract and deal Sheed.

Tahoe

06-03-2006, 01:28 AM

Call me crazy but I never thought that Ben liked Sheed. Never liked that Sheed got quite a bit of cred about the championship we won.

I thought Ben was different, but I'm not so sure.

To have the team mentality, some have to swallow those egos. We did that for one year, but it looks like it rapidly coming to a close.

Ben to RW..."This team aint big enough for both of us" --my crazy thoughts, not quoting Ben.

7 boards 7 pts in 30 minutes...If thats the heart and soul of our team, we don't have much of a pulse. Yea, lets build our team around him.

Anthony

06-03-2006, 01:31 AM

Please with the numbers. Any man going 1 on 1 vs Shaq isnt going to get anywhere close to normal numbers. Ben is much more than numbers to this team

Kstat

06-03-2006, 01:40 AM

Ben needs to be moved to power forward ASAP.

Tahoe

06-03-2006, 01:40 AM

Please with the Ben does so much that isn't on the stat sheet talk. How is anyone supposed to debate against this?

He does so much more shit that can't be quantified???? That shits wearing thin here. But go for it, believe it, I just don't believe it anymore.

The Ben I knew and loved said "I love playing in Detroit" Not this horseshit double talk, negotiating shit.

Ben might be the heart of this team, but heart is what it seemed like we were lacking at crucial points in the playoffs.

DrRay11

06-03-2006, 09:21 AM

Werd, Tahoe. Werd.

Glenn

06-03-2006, 09:39 AM

Now I'm wondering if Joe actually decided to wait to extend Ben earlier this year (as was reported) or if Ben told him he wanted to wait or even if he told him he wanted out.

Matt

06-03-2006, 10:00 AM

i keep thinking that this playoffs might be a good thing for the future of the team, regarding Ben's contract.

what if we squeaked by Miami and then made it to the Finals. at that point i think we all agree that the starting five shouldn't be touched and Ben gets his money. Joe D's hands are almost tied in this situation.

now that the Pistons seemingly imploded and Ben was at the center of team dissention.....Joe D has an out. now it almost looks like a perfect time for the Pistons and Ben to part ways. plus, we get to avoid all the hand wringing about being tied down to 4-5 years of Ben declining even further while we're paying him big bucks.

DennyMcLain

06-03-2006, 10:17 AM

Funny how KG hated playing for Flipper, and now Big Ben hates playing for Flipper.

Coincidence?

Matt

06-03-2006, 10:21 AM

Ben complained while playing for Carlisle, complained while playing for LB, and complained while playing for Flip.

coincidence?

DrRay11

06-03-2006, 10:39 AM

Yeah--I think Flip needs to go as well as Ben and Sheed. I don't know who would be the new guy though...

Gecko

06-03-2006, 10:56 AM

Funny how KG hated playing for Flipper, and now Big Ben hates playing for Flipper.

Coincidence?

I don't think that's correct. I recall KG and Flip being tight. Could be wrong be someone else seemed to have recalled that as well.

Gecko

06-03-2006, 10:58 AM

Ben complained while playing for Carlisle, complained while playing for LB, and complained while playing for Flip.

coincidence?

Didn't I say that Ben was a prima donna a while back. I think more will start to realize this.

Didn't JS say he was gonna post some rumblings he heard...let's do it JS where are ya?

Anthony

06-03-2006, 12:50 PM

Anthony

06-03-2006, 01:04 PM

Sounds like he wants to be here

BEN WALLACE SAID:

"I think everybody knows where my heart's at. I don't have to say anything for people to realize where I want to be," Wallace said. "I hired an agent. I needed an agent, that's all that is. Everybody needs somebody to talk for them every now and again, they get tired of hearing your voice."

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060603/SPORTS0102/606030402/1127

Gecko

06-03-2006, 01:26 PM

I dont remember him complaining about playing Under LB? How could he, the entire team scheme was built around him. He got the ball on offense and everything was filtered though him on the defensive end.

Yeah he did. It was more about complaining about LB's complaints about the team. Recall there was a point about in the middle of last season and Lb was complaining about his teams play in the media and they asked Ben's his thoughts? I can't recall the quote but ben had a few words to say about browns complaning.

Anthony

06-03-2006, 01:38 PM

oh yeah yeah yeah I remember now.

Ok. I forgot about that.

Man, I sware, if LB wasnt such a drama queen (and i'm a big LB fan here) he would be the perfect coach for this team. His system and our make up just work. But his personality rubs em the wrong way.

detroitsportscity

06-03-2006, 01:39 PM

Anthony

06-03-2006, 01:39 PM

Now that I was reminded, I thought he was talking about LB not using the bench enough.

AraFeeK

06-03-2006, 01:57 PM

Too bad we can't get Mike Woodson in here.. I just think he has the players respect, and knows how to get them to play the right way. O well, one can only hope.

Kstat

06-03-2006, 03:17 PM

Yeah, with the incredible job mike woodson did with Boris Diaw...man I cant wait to let him have a crack at Amir Johnson.

Tahoe

06-03-2006, 11:52 PM

<---Not a Mike Woodson fan

Glenn

06-04-2006, 12:02 PM

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/magic/orl-nbainsider04_106jun04,0,2545835.column?coll=orl-magic

Big Ben's Piston time may be up

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/thumbnails/columnist/2005-07/17104357.jpg
Tim Povtak
INSIDE THE NBA

June 4, 2006

MIAMI -- There is a reason -- a good reason -- Ben Wallace recently hired high-powered agent Arn Tellem to represent him this summer in free agency.

Wallace wants to find his true worth.

And surprisingly, the Detroit Pistons might not be the team to provide that opportunity.

In a league struggling to find enough decent centers and with teams dying to build a championship contender, someone will be willing to break the bank for Wallace.

Wallace might be a four-time Defensive Player of the Year, hailed as the anchor to the amazing run the Pistons have made in the past three seasons, but there is nothing certain about his re-signing in Detroit.

For a guy who never was drafted, signed for the minimum with the Washington Wizards, was traded to the Orlando Magic for Ike Austin and later found fame and fortune in Detroit, the world doesn't always turn smoothly.

"Nothing in this league is automatic,'' Wallace said last week in Miami when asked about his pending free agency. "I was never supposed to leave Washington. I was supposed to retire in Orlando.

"Strange things happen. It's not automatic [that he will re-sign in Detroit]. You just never know what might happen.''

The Pistons and the city of Detroit love Wallace and his blue-collar work ethic -- he has become a folk hero there -- but is it wise for the Pistons to give him one of those maximum contracts (six years, $132 million)?

Is it wise to commit so much to a player who is not involved in the offense, who relies so much on pure athleticism and whose athleticism will start diminishing soon (he turns 32 in September)?

It's a quandary the Pistons will face July 1 when he officially becomes a free agent.

Yet he is the only star among a generally weak free-agent crop, making him an attractive alternative this summer for anyone with major room under the salary cap.

Only the Chicago Bulls, Atlanta Hawks, Toronto Raptors and Charlotte Bobcats would be able to clear enough space to afford him, but others could acquire him with a sign-and-trade deal, which might interest the Pistons.

"You have to listen to hear what opportunities are out there,'' Wallace said. "You have to weigh your options.

"And it's not always just about money. It's about having the opportunity to do what you're comfortable doing.''

Imagine what the centerless Bulls and Coach Scott Skiles could do if they signed Wallace, putting him in the midst of all their young, talented perimeter players. They might be playing next season in the NBA Finals.

Atlanta will find him attractive, too, bringing Wallace back toward his roots in Alabama, where his family can see him shine every game, where he could anchor a budding team.

And what better way for Toronto to regain its NBA luster than by putting Wallace between young forwards Chris Bosh and Charlie Villanueva.

Either way, Wallace has found himself in a very enviable situation, but the Pistons are in a sticky one.

Wallace just completed the six-year, $30 million contract he signed when he left the Magic, but this summer, he will sign another contract that could be three times as large.

Like many that win championships or contend seriously, the salary structure of the Pistons is changing rapidly. By keeping Wallace, they almost certainly will be paying the luxury tax for many years.

Not only that, the contract of point guard Chauncey Billups will be up for renewal after the upcoming season or the one after that.

Re-signing Wallace, at his price, isn't as certain as it would be if this was just a basketball decision.

It was a brilliant decision for the Pistons to have him the past six seasons -- prime years of his wonderful career.

It might not be the same with the next six years.

FP22

06-04-2006, 12:04 PM

Wow, that last quote from Ben is very telling. He wants to leave because of Flip. Period.

Anthony

06-04-2006, 12:06 PM

Glenn, have you gotten off the computer this fine day? Your postin articles left and right.

Glenn

06-04-2006, 12:08 PM

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060604/SPORTS03/606040720/1048/SPORTS

WILL BEN RETURN? Free agent favors security over money

BY KRISTA JAHNKE
FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITER

June 4, 2006

CENTER OF ATTENTION: Ben Wallace, a free agent this summer, wore his jersey to the bus after Friday's loss. Maybe it won't be for the last time. "Money has never really been an issue," he said. "My thing has always been being secure where you're at ... not going to have to relocate time after time."

Big Ben watch THREE REASONS TO STAY
• 1. The Pistons are the team that best suits his game. Defense.

• 2. He is the face of the franchise. It's a blue-collar town. He will never be a bigger star elsewhere. Think Ford first, right?

• 3. Championship contender. The Pistons still give him the best chance to win a title. And he hates losing.

THREE REASONS TO GO
• 1. Problems with Flip. The Pistons might make an even bigger shift toward offense. Yet it doesn't seem to involve him.

• 2. The free-agent pool is thin, so some team (Chicago, Orlando or Atlanta perhaps) could offer him a big payday. Who thinks Joe D will give a max contract to a banger who turns 32 before next season?

• 3. Maybe another team will promise him a bigger role in its offense.

Somewhere high above the eastern United States early Saturday morning, the official wooing of Ben Wallace began.

As the Pistons flew home from their Game 6 loss to the Miami Heat in the Eastern Conference finals, Wallace's teammates made it known that just because their season ended Friday they don't expect their position as an NBA elite team to go with it.

They want Wallace, who becomes an unrestricted free agent this summer, back next season.

"We had a three-hour flight, and we definitely let him know what he meant to us and what he meant to this organization, to stay around," Antonio McDyess said. "Ben made a couple of jokes, but we're pretty sure he'll stay."

Wallace said Saturday that everybody knows where he wants to be. Asked to clarify whether that's Detroit, Wallace repeated the line.

But if you read between the lines, it's hard to imagine he's talking about any place besides Detroit.

"We all say you get that one opportunity to get that big contract," Wallace said. "But that doesn't bother me. I'm the same person I was when I came into this league. The money has never really been an issue to me. My thing has always been being secure where you're at, having opportunities to start a family and make sure you're not going to have to relocate time after time. Just find a place where you can be happy at, a place where you can call home."

Wallace said this while wearing a hat with the area code 313 stitched onto it. When Wallace came to Detroit, he was an NBA unknown. Now, he's one of its most popular and recognizable players. He's been here for six seasons. It must feel like home.

All that must count for something.

But there are other factors.

It would be foolish to think the length and amount of the contract won't be two big ones. Wallace wouldn't comment on how many years he hopes to sign for or whether he expects a max contract. And he recently signed with high-powered agent Arn Tellem.

"Now that his payday's here, he's going to have to do what's in the best interest of Ben Wallace," forward Maurice Evans said. "Hopefully the Pistons will coincide with his best interests."

Wallace also hinted Saturday that he had more fun in former coach Larry Brown's system, in which Brown always made sure to call a couple of plays for him. Flip Saunders' offense doesn't include many sets where Wallace is a primary offensive option.

That could be one factor "among other things" that goes into his decision this summer, Wallace said.

"It's tough being out there, having to go through a situation where no matter what happens, your number's not going to get called," Wallace said. "We all want to be out there, we all want to have our number called, we all want to feel like we're a part of the offense. It's tough."

Wallace wouldn't share what his teammates said about him on the flight from Miami -- or what jokes he cracked back -- but he appreciated the show of love.

"It always makes you feel good to know that you're wanted," he said, "that guys want to play with you and want to keep you around. It always makes you feel a little bit better."

The Pistons now must hope some other team, one more desperate and with more cash to spare, doesn't give Wallace that same warm and fuzzy feeling.

Glenn

06-04-2006, 12:09 PM

Glenn, have you gotten off the computer this fine day? Your postin articles left and right.

Tons of news out there today, lots to talk about.

Gotta make sure not too many fools up and leave WTF until next season, we need to talk about how to fix this thing.

Anthony

06-04-2006, 12:15 PM

Yeah, to tell the truth, i keep telling my self i'm not going to read any more NBA news and i'm just going to head over the MLB forum, but hey, i'm addicted.

I still dont think Ben is going anywhere.
I dont know what Flip's issue is with the offense. Throwing your big man a bone is nothing bad. I dont understand why Flip insists on keeping Ben out of the offense. We were very successfull under Brown giving Ben the ball. He was hitting that little 10ft jumper when he was givin the chance.

I still think he's coming back though. Hopefully Ben, Joe D, and Flip can sit down and figure some things out.

Matt

06-04-2006, 06:51 PM

Ben's a sensitive guy, is what i get from that article....and i think we all already knew that. i honestly think that Flip and JoeD sitting down with Ben and going over an offensive gameplan for next season that includes him in the mix could go a long way in Ben coming back.

and thanks for the articles, Glenn. i've made my peace w/ the Pistons losing....i'm on to looking forward to next season.

Tahoe

06-04-2006, 09:36 PM

Including Ben in the offensive mix could prove to cost us enormously (is that a word?). We sign him to a huge contract, he defense diminishes and the offensive thing doesn't work out (which prolly more likely than not).

If we can get him the ball in a spot that he can make a bucket without some going hackaben on him, it might work. I'm not sure I know where that spot on the floor is though.

My hope if for a S&T right now.

Thanks for the arts/links glen. Keeping us/me informed.

Final thought...I'm not sure Ben knows what the heck he wants, so how can any of us? Now he might want LB's system?

Move on JoeD

Kstat

06-04-2006, 09:40 PM

Ben's offensive problems were magnified by Sheed going in the tank.

If we have a consistent offensive threat opposite Ben, then I dont think Ben is that much of an issue.

Anthony

06-04-2006, 09:45 PM

IMO, his best year was LB's first year here when he made an effort to involve Ben in the offense.

Nobody is saying to give ben the ball on every play. But you have to keep the other guy honest. The more he is involved on the offense, the more he shoots, the more he sees the ball go in, the more confident he gets on the line, and he can hit 50%

That'll only fuel his defense.
Point is, you cant play 4 on 5, no matter how "bad" ben might be offensively. Hell, run that little pick and roll, with him and RIP all night long. Ally-oups galore!

And BTW, Ben Wallace is a very underrated passer. He can pass the ball.

He was averaging 8 shots a game under LB, I think it was. And those were two great years we had. This guy works so hard on defense, and when he creates a turnover, or blocks a shot or grabs a big rebound, its just like saying "Thanks for all the hard work, now get the fuck out of the way"

Bull shit. You have to include ben in the offense.

Kstat

06-04-2006, 10:06 PM

Can't involve a %20 shooter in anything.

Ben's FT dropoff is the main reason nobody gave him the ball. They knew he'd be hacked immidiately and there was an %80 chance there would be no points out of it.

%50 is one thing, but that was beyond pathetic.

Anthony

06-04-2006, 10:14 PM

Funny, Under Larry Brown he shot 42% and 45%
With plays consistenly called for him

OH, and he shot 50% from the line in LB's frist year here. Although I think that has more to do with Woodson working with Ben.

Uncle Mxy

06-04-2006, 10:19 PM

Ben's FT% tends to dip over the course of a season. For the past four seasons, his November FT% was right around 50%.

Uncle Mxy

06-05-2006, 06:11 AM

Funny, Under Larry Brown he shot 42% and 45%
With plays consistenly called for him
Here's the logic that Flip doesn't seem to understand.

Contrary to what Ben may say, no you don't really give Ben the ball just to make him feel good, get him into a rhythm. Maybe his ben-wa balls do get all fired up once in a great while, but he's been a DPOY under three different coaches, only one of which really used him on offense. Maybe just maybe he can do that "defense" thing even without being an offensive threat.

So, why do you do it? It's simply so the other team knows that he will take and make a shot if unattended so they at least need to keep a man on him. He's not very good offensively with a man on him... 42-45% from paint range sucks, and it'll never be good as long as it's so worthwhile for the defender to disrupt his shot. But it makes it harder for anyone to double-team us.

Why does that matter? Because we don't have -anyone- on our team who can score through a double well, who 'creates'. The closest we have to that is Chauncey, and he's not a very strong finisher to the hoop if he doesn't draw that foul. Our players have to find the open man. Sometimes the open man is gonna be Ben, and if he's open, Ben needs to score.

OH, and he shot 50% from the line in LB's frist year here. Although I think that has more to do with Woodson working with Ben.
49%, and that's only during the regular season, not counting his playoff FTs which moves his FT shooting down a couple %. Ben had started out shooting >50% through November/December, but slid down to 43% come playoff time that year. Similar thing happened this year. <sigh>

Glenn

06-05-2006, 10:06 AM

More on Ben, but the interesting stuff is about Delfino.

http://www.mlive.com/sports/statewide/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/1149502227264360.xml&coll=1

Wallace wants to return to Pistons, but who knows?

Monday, June 05, 2006
By A. Sherrod Blakely

AUBURN HILLS -- Moments before departing the Detroit Pistons practice facility this weekend for the official start of his offseason, Ben Wallace was asked about possible changes the Pistons may make in order to get back to the NBA Finals.

"I'm a free agent," Wallace said with a chuckle. "I might be one of those changes."

For many, the idea of Wallace suiting up for another NBA team is hard to imagine.

However, as one of the most attractive free agents this summer, no one -- not even Wallace -- knows how things will turn out.

He has repeatedly stated that he wants to re-sign with the Pistons. The Pistons have made it clear that the feeling is mutual.

However, there are factors to be considered that, in the end, hold more weight than the personal sentiments of those involved.

Knowing this will be his richest contract ever, Wallace naturally wants to get as much money as he can. That's one of the reasons he hired Arn Tellem, one of the most powerful agents in the game.

Wallace's teammates have done everything they can to convince him that Detroit is where he needs to be. Wallace has often talked about how the Pistons' organization and the fans embraced him from the moment he arrived in town in 2000.

"My thing has always been about being secure where you're at, having an opportunity to start a family and make sure that (you're not) relocating time after time," said Wallace, whose wife, Chanda, is expecting their second child in a few weeks. "It's always been about being secure."

Financial security won't be an issue for Wallace after he signs his next contract, which should provide a significant bump in pay from the $7.5 million he received for the 2005-2006 season.

The Pistons made sure they would be in position to offer Wallace a big contract when they traded Darko Milicic and Carlos Arroyo to Orlando for a future draft pick and Kelvin Cato, whose $8 million contract expires at the end of the month.

Detroit could conceivably offer Wallace a maximum contract that would start at more than $17 million per season. However, considering he'll be 32 when training camp starts and that he had a less-than-stellar playoffs, he'll likely receive an offer from the Pistons for four years that would start at about $12 million per season.

Maurice Evans, who was pursued by several teams as a free agent last summer before signing with the Pistons, reiterated to Wallace how important the team feels he is to the franchise's future success.

However, Evans was quick to add that if there was a significant gap between what the Pistons were offering him compared to another team, he would understand if Wallace took the money and left Detroit.

"Now that his payday is here, he's going to have to do what's in the best interest of Ben Wallace," Evans said. "I'm sure he'll do that. Hopefully, the Pistons will coincide with his best interest."

After appearing in just 30 games as a rookie during the 2004-05 season because of a knee injury, Carlos Delfino was optimistic that he would play more this season.

That didn't happen.

While he appeared in more games (68), the 15.3 minutes per game he averaged under ex-Pistons coach Larry Brown dropped to 10.6 per game under coach Flip Saunders this season.

"I don't want another season like that," said Delfino, who will play for Argentina's National Team this summer.

However, he said he has not talked to the Pistons about trading him.

"I want to be here. I expect to be here," Delfino said. "I want to play here."

Antonio McDyess will see a hand specialist, who will examine the left hand injury he sustained in Game 4 of the Eastern Conference finals against Miami.

Glenn

06-05-2006, 10:19 AM

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060605/SPORTS08/606050311/1127/SPORTS0102

Humbled Pistons must find selves

By Bob Wojnowski

You don't tear this thing apart. No way. You don't ignore all the good the Pistons accomplished for four seasons because it went bad for two weeks.

But in the aftermath of a strange, stunning collapse, the franchise, the players and the coach need to do an honest reassessment. Perhaps this was the humbling they needed, to deflate egos, to regain that whatever-it-takes mentality.

The Pistons thought they had it all figured out, that shared responsibility reduced individual accountability. Then they got in trouble against Cleveland, lost their way against Miami and players scrambled for someone to blame.

This team's legacy of selfless achievement has been tarnished, but it can be refurbished with smart retooling. That makes this summer a tricky one for team president Joe Dumars. He built a championship foundation on Ben Wallace, who's now a pending free agent, and anything the Pistons do from here will be predicated on what they do with Wallace.

Wallace was a disappointment in the playoffs, his brooding a concern, his role suddenly ill-defined. But Dumars has to be careful. Letting Wallace leave would send the Pistons in a different direction, an offensive direction, which admittedly is the way the NBA is headed.

Depend on defense
But didn't we see in the postseason, even with Flip Saunders' ramped-up offense, that the Pistons still hit incomprehensible scoring lapses? No matter what they do, they aren't going to have a superstar such as LeBron James, or Dwyane Wade, or Dirk Nowitzki, which is why they can't stray too far from their defensive principles.

If they can't find (or create) dependable scoring stars, they have to try to keep Wallace, although not at any cost, not for a maximum contract. The Face of the Franchise no longer is untouchable, but I'd keep him because replacing him would be more difficult than you realize. I'd keep him because if you let him go, you are, in some ways, blowing up your identity.

That said, if Wallace is so unhappy in Saunders' offense, Dumars cannot placate him. Placating days should be over for this group, which grew weary of the past two coaches, leading to the arrival of Saunders' lighter touch. This is what can happen when players feel they're in control. They assume they can coach themselves.

That doesn't make them suddenly incorrigible. Not at all. This is still an elite, unique team, classy for the most part, capable of winning 50-55 regular-season games by memory.

It does make them human. They had such a spectacular regular season, and such a memorable four-year run, they arrogantly assumed nothing could derail them. Now we know otherwise, and now we hunt for reasons. Three stand out:

MVP candidate Chauncey Billups struggled horribly, his cool control suddenly shaken, his shooting touch gone. To his credit, he wouldn't make excuses, but he sure looked worn out. You hope he was, because fatigue is fixable.

Rasheed Wallace revealed how valuable he is, and how difficult it is to count on him. The Pistons started falling apart precisely when Wallace sprained his right ankle in Game 4 at Cleveland, after another of his guarantees. He's the team's best low-post scorer, but disdains the role. He's the emotional turbine, but too often gets out of control. He has to be better.

For all the justifiable regular-season acclaim, Saunders is judged on the playoffs, rendering his first season a disappointment. His leadership skills were called into question and his track record became an issue. He never settled on a bench rotation, which sapped the subs' confidence and the starters' energy.

Tricky transition
Saunders was in a difficult position, unable to completely gain the respect of a team that had won without him. He must take firmer control now that the players have been humbled, and presumably will be hungry.

We suspected all along this would be a tough transition. Saunders understood the pressure replacing Larry Brown, who guided the team to a title and two straight Finals appearances.

Many around here, starting with the owner, had suggested Brown got too much credit for the Pistons' success. Hmm. Now we see he probably didn't get enough. After witnessing Brown's struggles in New York, it sure appears -- as some of us loudly harped -- the team and the old coach needed each other more than most were willing to admit. The theory this season was the Pistons would be driven by that Game 7 loss to San Antonio, and doubly driven by the need to prove their success wasn't tied tightly to Brown.

Instead, cracks appeared. Dumars can fix cracks, as long as they don't spread. Somehow, the Pistons evolved into a jump-shooting, three-point-heaving team. Their balance was terrific during the regular season, when they won a franchise-record 64 games, but became exploitable in the playoffs, when defenses dared the Pistons to beat them inside. Ultimately, they were defeated badly inside -- inside the paint, inside their own heads. If not dissension issues, there were chemistry issues, trust issues. This can't be treated flippantly, pun intended.

It's not all on Flip because that's a cop-out, and this team is too good and experienced to seek cop-outs.

"I don't think it's fair to point that finger at one person," Billups said. "There are some things in hindsight Flip could've done better, and a lot of things I know I could've done better. You can say that about every single player. As long as we bring back the same guys, I'm not concerned at all."

Was Rasheed's ankle injury huge? Yep, it was. Can everything be blamed on an inexplicable shooting slump? Nope, it can't.

I don't buy that the entire team simply went into a two-week drought. The truth is, players didn't work harder for better shots, or more defensive stops. The team that toiled brilliantly and relentlessly for years acted as if it had grown out of that phase, ready for the next one.

It's a tough lesson, but ultimately a good one. To get where you need to go, there's nothing wrong with exploring new paths. Just don't ever forget where, or how, you started.

You can reach Bob Wojnowski at bob.wojnowski@detnews.com

Glenn

06-07-2006, 11:18 AM

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060607/SPORTS08/606070382/1127/SPORTS0102

Re-signing Wallace is a must if Pistons want another title

Ben Wallace is worth it.

If the Pistons offer Wallace, their unrestricted free-agent center, what he deserves, there should be no reason a deal can't be reached.

Wallace, who will be 32 next season, should command a contract between $10 million and $12 million a year for four years.

If another team decides to be fiscally irresponsible -- by offering Wallace a max contract in excess of $15 million a season -- all bets are off. The Pistons, one of the best-run franchises in the NBA, have never simply thrown money around, so you can't expect a major bidding war.

"Ben Wallace is a high priority," Pistons president Joe Dumars said. "We want to re-sign him. He's an unrestricted free agent, though.

"At the end of the day, it's going to be Ben's decision."

Good with the bad
All signs are Wallace wants to be here. That's a good start. It's not enough, however.

The Pistons must come in with an outstanding offer with no games. The last thing they want to do is disrespect Wallace with a lowball offer.

Pistons officials have too much respect for Wallace to pull a scam like that.

Those who believe the Pistons shouldn't re-sign Wallace because he missed free throws in the disappointing postseason are overreacting.

Sure, it was terrible. Big Ben will be the first to tell you that. But Wallace always has been a great defender and a terrible free-throw shooter. In order to get one part of his game, you have to take the other.

Every player has a weakness he wishes he could correct. The same goes for Wallace taking his coaches to task publicly. You'd rather that be kept in-house, but it doesn't mean a player is a bad guy because he disagrees with his boss.

Addition, not subtraction
Let's not forget, Wallace has been named defensive player of the year four out of the last five seasons. That's nothing to pooh-pooh, especially when you know defense wins championships.

After all, isn't that what this is all about? It's about giving the Pistons a shot at another title.

Breaking up the starting five wouldn't give you the best chance to win again.

Adding players is the key.

Take a look around the East. The Pistons will again be considered one of the teams to beat.

Miami's squad is older. Nobody knows how long Shaquille O'Neal's knees will hold up.

Are LeBron James and the Cavaliers scary? Not yet. They still have to acquire more talent if they want to be in the hunt.

The windows of opportunity for the Nets and Pacers probably have closed.

That leaves the Pistons front and center.

They can win again.

It's not over.

Just ask the Spurs. They've never won back-to-back titles. But they have won three championships in seven years.

They didn't scrap their core because they lost. They simply added new pieces to go with what they had and what had worked.

Without question, another championship is obtainable.

That's why keeping Wallace is a no-brainer.

He's worth the loot.

You can reach Rob Parker at rob.parker@detnews.com.

Gecko

06-07-2006, 11:32 AM

Does anyone in the history of mankind say and write the word "pooh-pooh" more than Parker? Maybe his editor lacks a thesaurus.

So here's what's killin me on Parker. Does the fact that Parker hasn't written a single story on any sort of locker room strife mean that there isn't any or is it that Dumars is keeping him out of the loop? I mean who would know better than Parker, he's damn near in Dumars suite during most games.

Black Dynamite

06-07-2006, 11:47 AM

Maurice Evans, who was pursued by several teams as a free agent last summer before signing with the Pistons, reiterated to Wallace how important the team feels he is to the franchise's future success.

However, Evans was quick to add that if there was a significant gap between what the Pistons were offering him compared to another team, he would understand if Wallace took the money and left Detroit.

"Now that his payday is here, he's going to have to do what's in the best interest of Ben Wallace," Evans said. "I'm sure he'll do that. Hopefully, the Pistons will coincide with his best interest."

After appearing in just 30 games as a rookie during the 2004-05 season because of a knee injury, Carlos Delfino was optimistic that he would play more this season.
what the fuck is mo evans doing even speaking on ben wallace. cut this bald sissy voice fuck immediately.

Comrade

06-07-2006, 01:56 PM

Varsity

06-08-2006, 11:04 AM

Glenn

06-09-2006, 04:51 PM

http://journaltimes.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=6132

There is growing sentiment that Detroit free-agent center Ben Wallace will have the Chicago Bulls on his short list of teams this summer. “From what I saw in the playoffs, it sure didn’t look like he wants to stay in Detroit,’’ an NBA coach said.

Fool

06-09-2006, 05:08 PM

metr0man

06-09-2006, 08:57 PM

Bulls are probably the only other team I could see Ben going to, i dont care how much some shit team like Atlanta or Toronto offer. Bulls actually gives Ben a chance to be the centerpiece and try to win, as well as a defensive mindset, which we currently lack. It's us or Chicago imo.

FP22

06-10-2006, 12:21 AM

Signing with a team in the same division, in a situation where we get absolutely nothing in return, would be a stab in the back, IMO. Especially if we're giving him a good offer and he just wants to leave for "touches".

Black Dynamite

06-10-2006, 09:58 PM

Varsity

06-11-2006, 10:38 AM

Tahoe

06-15-2006, 09:42 PM

It would be difficult to see Ben in a uni other than the Pistons. Its embezzled in my brain that Ben should be in a Pistons uni, but there is possibility that he could go.

Uncle Mxy

06-16-2006, 06:31 AM

"embezzled in my brain"... heh.

As for and talk of a S+T with Chicago, the key thing is that the Bulls almost have to get rid of Tyson Chandler at that point, else he's an $11-12 million boat anchor that puts them in cap hell when signing all their young players to big contracts. Given how poorly he's played for that kind of contract, I just don't see other teams chomping at the bit for him.

Higherwarrior

06-17-2006, 09:11 PM

guys, i'm new here so it's hard to really impress upon you my full views on wallace and the state of the team in one post. but seriously- i think IF we're able to, we should do a sign and trade of wallace. i understand that it's very unlikely for several reasons.

but it's just that i would not overpay for him. and i'm wondering if we should even give him a 'market value' contract either. ben has not been close to his normal self this last year or so. yes, he won DPOY this year.

but if we're honest with ourselves, we have to admit he only played at that level once in a while. the rest of the time he seemed to be sort of wandering around out there. no intensity, no passion like he used to have. he doesn't seem happy with flip or his role on the team either.

i love ben. he is probably my favorite piston. he's been the lifeblood of this franchise for 5 years. that is why saying this is even more difficult for me. believe me- it took me a long while to reach this position on ben.

but seriously- IF he is not going to be the ben of old, then it would be a mistake re-signing him IMO. unless he can rediscover his passion for the game and be the ben of old EVERY night out there.....we would be better off without him.

i admit, it would be even more disastrous to lose him and get NOTHING in return; a distinct possibility actually. but that's why i'm hoping the bulls or someone goes crazy and wants him bad enough that ben can command the coin that would make it necessary to work out a sign and trade. i know that's very unlikely, but who knows.

all i'm saying is if we get the ben of this past year, and sign him even to 4 years $40- that would be a mistake IMO. it would give us little or no flexbility with our roster. also it would continue to cripple our offense as it did this year.

with the new rules and the way the nba game is changing.....i'm not saying we have to try and become the phoenix suns. but we have to at least be able to play that style some. we need more athletic, offensive-minded guys. and we desperately need a low post threat who can also attack the rim.

ben is none of those things right now. he's athletic, but he rarely played with the necessary passion he used to have. and his athleticism does little to help our ridiculously stagnant offense. and he's soon to be 32. not old, especially considering the shape he keeps his body in. but again- it comes down to his attitude towards things; when he's not happy or playing with intensity, he's little more than a liability out there.

i lost track of the number of times ben did not even box out this year, or didn't defend agressively like he would have in the past. i'm not saying he was tanking it, but he was NOT playing like the ben of old.

i just don't want to be locked in to him and then realise this roster needs some real revamping, and then being unable to get it done.

ok, sorry for blabbing...

Fool

06-18-2006, 12:11 AM

I think you're a Pacer fan.

Varsity

06-19-2006, 11:01 AM

I think you're a Pacer fan.

:)

Uncle Mxy

06-19-2006, 11:46 AM

i lost track of the number of times ben did not even box out this year, or didn't defend agressively like he would have in the past. i'm not saying he was tanking it, but he was NOT playing like the ben of old.
I've lost track of the number of times Ben -couldn't- play like the Ben of old, because of teammates jacking up more bad perimeter shots or the way the games were being called. If you can't block because you'll get the blocking foul more frequently (blocks are down to their lowest level since the 80s), or box out because you'll get a loose ball foul, how often should you play D? Answer: Only when you need to, and Ben's agile enough where he doesn't generally foul unless he wants to (unlike most bigs). Ben's been among the leaders on the Nestle "crunch time" statistics for the past few years, despite not racking up clutch points scoring. Often our endgame rallies start with a Ben defensive play. He can defend and outjump most centers, but he's a PF in size and has no business against true 7-foot Cs for 30-40 mpg, despite his ego thinking otherwise.

Now how much is that worth?

Pharaoh

06-19-2006, 12:07 PM

Close to the max, but do we want to go there?

There are good points on both sides IMO

On one side you have the group saying that Ben shouldn't get a huge contract because he's declining (or soon will be) and he's an offensive liability. Bottom Line: the league has changed and so should we.

On the other side you have the faithful supporters believing that a tweak here and a tweak there to the bench will change everything. Ben should get what he's owed and we should celebrate his loyalty, heart, determination, work ethic and toughness. Bottom Line: He's our heart and soul.

The reality is the league has changed but that doesn't mean there isn't a place for Ben in it. He's still one of the best big men in the game and he should be rewarded for that.

If he wants the max then do a sign and trade, because honestly he's not worth it. Fuck what he's given the team and the city - he ain't worth the max.

But if he's not asking for the max then what is he asking for?

And is that figure "reasonable"?

Higherwarrior

06-19-2006, 05:16 PM

i agree that some of ben's 'attitude issues' and lack of effort in some instances may be due to his growing discontent with how the rest of our guys are playing and ignoring him.

no doubt. but there is more to it than that IMO. like i said, there were many times where he just seemed to go through the motions and make no effort to box out on D or challenge players. perhaps that IS because he's buying into his teammates attitude that: "screw playing D like we used to, we can outscore people now".

but that is not the type of player ben is or was. he was always a guy who sacrificed everything on D and ignited our team. when he's not doing that (for WHATEVER the reason and no matter how justified it MIGHT be) he's not worth NEAR as much to us as he was 2 years ago.

and IMO he has not been doing that much lately. i don't know the exact reason why or why not. but my point is if he's not the ben of 2 years ago, then he's not NEAR as effective or valuable to us.

again, it kills me to say that because i love the guy and always have. i would love it if things went back to how they were 2 years ago. but that's perhaps just living in the past too much. the reality is, ben doesn't seem content and seems to be lacking the intensity we need from him- for one reason or another.

so do we really want to committ to him for 4 or 5 years- at any price - and risk regretting it down the line?

i don't know for sure- this is somethign we need to seriously look at for the longterm health of this team.

JMO

Hermy

06-19-2006, 06:42 PM

Ben had his best year last year.

Atticus771

06-19-2006, 07:24 PM

Ben had his best year last year.

In what sense?

Stastically? No. End result-wise? No.

I disagree that last year was his best year. This assumes, of course, that last year = 2005-06 season.

Higherwarrior

06-19-2006, 08:54 PM

yeah there's no way 2005-06 was his best year.

in fact, i think even though he won DPOY, this season just ended was a subpar year for him, overall.

Matt

06-19-2006, 09:39 PM

guys, i'm new here so it's hard to really impress upon you my full views on wallace and the state of the team in one post.

hi Higherwarrior, welcome to WTFD.......i read through your post and think many of us here agree with your sentiments.

best case scenario would probably be that Ben could come back as the Ben of old that brought it every night, and helped alter the game on the defensive end.

Uncle Mxy

06-19-2006, 10:15 PM

Ben had his best year last year.

In what sense?

Stastically? No. End result-wise? No.

I disagree that last year was his best year. This assumes, of course, that last year = 2005-06 season.
Statistically, Ben's an interesting case this year. For the box score weenies, consider that his Hollinger PER was the highest it's been since 2002. While his rpg is down, his rebound rate has been pretty constant since Cliff "what's a rebound" Robinson left, and he played less mpg this regular season because we won tons of games. Opposing Cs PER suggested that he played decent man D, and his per-possession +/- was among the highest in the league. He had a sucky playoffs by Big Ben standards, but had a fine rebound rate and generally was not a total suck apart from the FTs. His head-to-head #s with Shaq were sucky, but our strategy with Shaq was to wear him down and keep him honest, and Shaq was in better shape and better rested than in the past.

I think he's "lost a step" simply because he's grinding against Cs, and he's a PF. While Ben at C can sorta work because of the overall quality of NBA Cs, against a good 7' wide load, Ben's limited. They'll weigh him down or shoot over him, depending on their game.

06-21-2006, 04:01 AM

http://www.mlive.com/weblogs/fullcourtpress/index.ssf?/mtlogs/mlive_fcpress/archives/2006_06.html#152768

I am surprised nobody has posted this yet, despite it seeming like garbage rumblings in the NBA suggest there may be truth to the Ben the Spurs talk.

Although I have heard slightly different elements to the posted rumor. The variation of the deal I heard is Ben a conditional first to SA for Manu, Either Horry or Bowen, and the rights to Scola. Which makes more sense than taking on an over paid Rasho, although he did thrive for Flip so maybe Rasho is a possibility.

Though more than likely this trade is fantasy it would be a nice depth move. Basically Manu becomes the 6th man, we get a young 2 way C/PF in Scola, and could get a veteran bench guy in Horry. That would leave us with MLE to fill the C spot, and the BAE to get a PG. The pickings are slim for big guys I know but I think we need to look at the number we need to replace and that is 11.3 rpg closely followed by the other key number 2.21 bpg. Forget about the intangibles you can't replace that, and ppg are negated by Manu. So IMO the guy to throw the MLE at is Reggie Evans in 20.5 mpg he averaged 5.6 ppg and 7.5 rpg his bpg sucks but add 10-15 mpg to Evans numbers and I think we is the best replacement for Ben.

Cross

06-21-2006, 04:26 AM

I say its bullshit and will never happen.

I dont think we would trade to someone who is potentially our opponent in the finals for Manu. If we were to get Manu, we would trade Rip. For me,
Rip > Manu. I dont like the flopper. I really do hope this is bullshit

06-21-2006, 04:33 AM

I see your point Cross and don't disagree totally, I don't know if it answers more problems than it creates. Where I do disagree is the potential opponent argument, I think we need to focus on making the team better and not worrying about who we could meet in the finals. The other point I disagree on is Rip> Manu. I think Manu has the key tool we are missing the ability to slash and score in the paint, he does flop but is also a guy who draws a ton of fouls, and can score without heavy touches.

06-21-2006, 05:00 AM

I am not sure of how many of the members are aware of my contact with a national sports writer who is my source,but I get a lot info from him and share as much as I can. I don't say much usually because people either call you out if stuff doesn't happen or want to know how I know what I know. In general my source green lights a few things that are common knowledge among writers or the press so that it doesn't come back on him. Other private stuff I reserve for those I trust. With all this said, this playoff season has been painful based on all the info I have heard from behind the scenes, in all honesty I lost a lot of respect for a few players and the team as a whole because of the BS. I am sharing this because I respect what this site means to all of us, not to show off or act cool. I am not saying this is the gospel, it is just backroom rumblings.

So Without further ado here is what I have heard from my source: Ben Wallace has become a cancer and Sheed is tumor that has not been examined close enough to determine its seriousness. From what has been said Ben has divided the locker room and has no plans on returning to the team. It is believed however Ben has not lost respect for the Organization, Mr. D, Joe or the fans so he will accomadate the team by agreeing to a S&T. Apparently there is a huge rift between Billups and Ben. Although Chauncey has done nothing inflamatory to Ben, besides get better and garner a lot of attention nationally, which has caused resentment that is eating at the team chemistry. Ben feels like he is an outsider because how much praise the offense recieved (reg season)and how little fan fare surrounded his DPOY award. Joe is very upset with the lack of focus but does not blame Flip, he blames Ben's pettiness which is not the first time it has reared it's ugy head. Ben has isolated himself from the team and his hiring of a powerhouse agent is not for show, Tellem is apparently putting out feelers. Ben's public outburst at Flip are apparently rooted in his relationship with Billups. Right now the front runner for Ben's services is Chicago. Before anyone jumps down my throat about the rivalry factor you must remember we can't match, we have very little power and as much as it sucks to lose Ben to a rival it's better to get something for him rather than lose him for nothing. Obviously no offical trade talk can occur at this time but the general feeling is Chicago has a couple of packages they are willing to offer. One that is being floated about involves Chandler, Deng and the 2nd Pick for Ben, Either Delfino or Evans and the rights to the Magic conditional pick. The other option which seems less likely is because of Gordon's pending extension is Gordon, Chandler and the 16th pick for the same Detroit package. The no go on the basis of the Gordon extension is rooted in the belief that Joe wants Billups to be the only major deal he has to worry about in 06-07. Of course there is a team option in 07-08 on Gordon's deal but that is only prolonging the process. Deng is in a similar situation in terms of contract status but has less of a chance at being offered max dollars. The biggest issue however is the greatest flaw of the NBA is FA starts after the draft, so for to get the number two or 16 pick or any pick for Ben it is after the player is drafted. So Chicago and Detroit have to have a wink wink deal or put trust in the other that a deal will happen.

Other teams believed to have interest include Cha (Okafor is the name being used as bait) but is contigent on BJ wanting to spend money, Toronto, PHX, LAL, MEM, and Denver. What I mean by interest is the means or players to make a deal happen. For example ATL would love to get Ben but the situation is poor, they don't have picks to offer and don't have players that the Pistons desire.

This part is purely speculation by my source who is throwing out his opinion, he feels a deal with PHX or Minny is the most likely. He thinks Marion could be the name we get back from PHX, however that would mean Sheed moving to the 5 spot, unless Sheed is also moved in the offseason. With Minny he thinks the there is a chance last years rumor could come true. KG, Blount or Madsen and Griffin for the Wallaces and a pick.

Say what you will about what I am hearing it is what it is.

Sorry for not posting this as fast as I wanted to but I was hesitant do to the fact I am not revealing my source.

Uncle Mxy

06-21-2006, 05:06 AM

S+T can't involve (Ben + multiple players) so there'd -have- to be a wink-wink factor to pull off anything like you describe.

06-21-2006, 05:10 AM

You are correct, but given Delfino low salary there is the potential for the deal to be two deals but really only being 1 when all is said and done. At least that was what I was told.

Cross

06-21-2006, 07:11 AM

detroitsportscity

06-21-2006, 09:22 AM

Ben for Chandler, Deng, #2 I would do in a second. Draft Aldridge or trade down and get someone like Roy or Carney.

Toronto would be iffy to me, as I would prefer a center, maybe CV and #1 (and we take their bad contracts, and give up the rest of that proposed package) then trade Sheed for a C like Dalembert.

Phoenix doesn't have the right players, barring a 3 way, IMO.

LA has Odom, which would neccessitate trading Sheed for a C, but Odom would be nice.

Memphis has Gausol which would be an AMAZING pickup.

I think Minny is BS, though KG would be nice.

I want youth if we're giving up on the Wallace's.

Uncle Mxy

06-21-2006, 10:33 AM

Rasheed can play C, especially with Dale Davis backing him up. They did that in Portland after Sabonis retired.

Black Dynamite

06-21-2006, 11:27 AM

Can I say that I may be alone on this. But I dont want manu or any other bitchmade player from the nba flop crop. I want to Improve what we are, not change it to fit the league. We need more firepower. I dont wanna get softer as a team. The NBA has destroyed itself. I'd be pretty bitter if it destroys our team. We add two starter potential players and get back our defensive identity, then we can win the title in spite of everything. But conforming to the NBA i see now is the worst move we could ever make. The NBA doesnt want the detroit pistons to win it. playing "their" brand of basketball gives them more power to screw us. which is what happened in the cleveland and miami series. Unless we get the next michael jordan (which i dont want actually), the NBA will never stop the rig. The only answer is to keep going the opposite way. To keep emphasizing defense first, to keep our identity of being able to grind it out with el boring basketball at times, and to kick a collective foot up their ass.

WTFchris

06-21-2006, 12:04 PM

Matt

06-21-2006, 12:11 PM

during the playoffs, i think we would have been very happy w/ 50% FTs from Ben :(

Ben's so quick that if had some semblance of a free throw shot, he could be used to draw fouls from more slow footed centers. but alas, that'll never be.

Ben's 06 playoff FT percentage: 27.3%

i honestly think i could hit one out of four half court shots....

Higherwarrior

06-22-2006, 07:08 AM

^ i agree. some players take a step back from the FT line; ben should step back to halfcourt. it can't hurt his percentage, right? :lol

but seriously, i can definitely make 1 of 4 halfcourt shots.

FYI- my basketball coach wouldn't let you make the team if you couldn't hit 70% of your FTs.

didn't matter how good you were otherwise- you had to make at least 7 of 10 while he was watching. (you got multiple chances, but still)

Taymelo

06-22-2006, 07:26 AM

FP22

06-22-2006, 09:33 AM

Can I say that I may be alone on this. But I dont want manu or any other bitchmade player from the nba flop crop.

Sorry but have you seen this team lately? Ben Wallace should patent the "rebound flop" where he flails around and screams "OOOHHH" even when he barely gets touched. It seems like Chauncey hasn't taken a shot within 15 feet in 2 years where he hasn't launched it up wildly and flipped out his arms to try to draw a call instead of just trying to hit the shot. Rip... What can I say. He's taking this "Reggie Miller Clone" thing a bit too far. My favorite recent memory of Rip: Game 5 against the Cavs. He gets a shot a taking a game winner in a huge playoff game, and he doesn't even attempt to get a shot off. Instead throwing the ball out of bounds like he got hit, when he obviously didn't. Sheed and Tayshaun are the only 2 starters that don't "flop" constantly. Probably because Sheed's too busy screaming at a ref and a Tay's too busy holding his arms up and giving the ref the "what the hell?" look everytime someone gets near him...

http://espn.starwave.com/media/pg2/2005/0616/photo/tayshaun_prince_275.jpg

[/RANT]

Cross

06-22-2006, 10:29 AM

Fool

06-22-2006, 10:37 AM

I have to confess, I don't make 7-10. I'm a pure rhythm shooter which is why I typically distribute rather than shoot.

Black Dynamite

06-22-2006, 10:58 AM

I disagree.

That's like volunteering to make things nearly impossible on yourself.
Technically speaking thats what we were doing when we built this team in the first place. Its partially why we're so despised by superstar teams. Its a rig within the rig. We keep building the softy team the NBA wants and they screw us over more. We arent getting the next lebron or dwayne wade. And KG isnt coming to Detroit besides the twice a year visit during the season. So all we are doing is helping in the transition of NBA rig power to cleveland and Miami. You want to get an efficient slasher who plays defense, i feel that. But no manu type players who probally wont get the same calls wade and james get.

Cross

06-22-2006, 11:27 AM

with the Spurs having a whole in the center spot currently, could the Spurs make a strong chase after ben now?

Fool

06-22-2006, 11:28 AM

They only have the MLE and LLE. They would need a sign and trade. They don't have anything they would trade that's worthwhile.

Cross

06-22-2006, 11:30 AM

They only have the MLE and LLE. They would need a sign and trade. They don't have anything they would trade that's worthwhile.

Js mentioned Ginobli but im against that but who am I to make the calls.

I have to confess, I don't make 7-10. I'm a pure rhythm shooter which is why I typically distribute rather than shoot.

[smilie=arnold.gif]

Pharaoh

06-22-2006, 11:52 AM

Here's something that no one ever mentioned:

When we had Stackhouse and Grant Hill the league didn't love the slashers.

They loved the big men. Back then you needed a dominant big to win.

Now, we've got quality bigs (fucking 3 of them) and the league is in love with slashers.

Watch Joe go get some slashers and the league will change again.

The next great Draft is loaded with quality bigs. This "little man" bullshit won't last forever. Don't fucking change the style to suit a season or 2.

What happens when the league is loaded with Brand, Dwight Howard, KG, Duncan, Greg Oden, Okafor, Amare, Dirk, Yao Ming and Bosh (and many others)?

Wade is just the man of the moment, kind of like Chauncey when we won. Miami is not set up to be a contender for the next 3 years. We are.

How long will Payton and Flexo play? Will Posey opt out? Will Walker be content to be the third option? Will Williams' knees hold up?

They'll have Shaq, Haslem and Wade for the next 3 years. Everyone else is up in the air.

Fuck the Heat. Fuck the League. And fuck motherfuckers who think bowing down will get us anywhere.

We have our slasher: Delfino! Play him!

Use the MLE on the best fucking guard we can get and go from there.

Fool

06-22-2006, 11:54 AM

I agree with P.

Black Dynamite

06-22-2006, 01:32 PM

b-diddy

06-24-2006, 02:44 PM

hot rumor (denied, but who cares) is that chi is going to trade chandler + #2 for shawn marion.

the only logical explanation for this is that chicago is going to get ben wallace.

if that trade happens, i'd bet my life chicago signs ben.

b-diddy

06-24-2006, 02:50 PM

Black Dynamite

06-25-2006, 12:43 AM

this whole enfatuation with stars theory is bs, to me.

yes, the refs were all over wade and lebron's nuts all playoffs. but we beat lebron. we would have beat the heat if we came to play. dallas would have beat the heat if they had any balls.

why are big men less effective now than in year's past? cuz of the handcheck rule. i dont buy that for a second. i think people are confusing the old guard big men's decline with the decline in value of big men.

if amare didnt get injured, we're not having this discussion at all. he looked better in the playoffs last year than anyother young player.
so its all bs because amare didnt play?

though the handcheck rule is why perimeter defense sucks, and its why wade and lebron had super playoffs. saying we beat them last year is missing the point. the rules changed every year we've beat superstar teams. see if they change this offseason? probally not much change at all if any. there was a push to get perimeter slashing superstars more points and fame. its finally had success. doesnt mean they can't be beat. just means you better be twice as good as them just to sneak by miami and cleveland.

I'd bet anything that if we found a way to slow wade down next year that the rules change little more the following year.

But thats the way the rig goes. nudge just a little bit and leave the door open for blaming dallas. But one thing i dont get Diddy, is that you claim the infatuation is bs. But immediately admit the refs sucked the young perimeter superstars dick the whole playoffs. Not even shaq was getting as many calls as he used to. but wade gets them 95 percent of them? Its bad enough to show favortism, but they are giving it to the players who haven't earned first and fugging over the vets.

b-diddy

06-25-2006, 10:50 AM

what rule changes happened last summer? none, as far as i know.

my point about amare is that he was looking like the best young player before the injuries--a post player. if amare played last year, people wouldnt be saying post play is dead. hell, as much as i dislike steve nash, i'd say suns would have run away with the championship if amare played.

Black Dynamite

06-25-2006, 11:05 AM

what rule changes happened last summer? none, as far as i know..
There was more emphasis on perimeter touching i remember.. Saunders even spoke on it being something new this year.

"Saunders was encouraged by how a zone defense slowed down Wade and O'Neal in the third quarter of Game 4, but said the Pistons are more limited defensively than they were before he became their coach because of rule changes. "When you're not allowed to touch people, either in the post much or in the perimeter, what it does is it gives more opportunities for your star-type players," Saunders said. "I don't think anyone envisioned San Antonio would get into a series and give up over 100 points as they did against Sacramento and against Dallas."

An interesting take on how they should bring back hand checking to cut down on flagrant fouls.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE4DC1F3EF93BA15750C0A9659582 60

Taymelo

06-25-2006, 09:28 PM

Nice find.

The sig that is.

http://www.freeimagelibrary.com/images/ddot313/zxxxxzzzz.jpg

The article is nice, too.

But I like the sig better.

cobalt2970

07-02-2006, 10:30 AM

Anyone else that was wondering why Ben would do a sign and trade here is the answer I got from Blakely on mlive.com.

That's a wonderful question Mike. I'll try to answer it as best I can.

The way the league's Collective Bargaining Agreement reads to me, is if you have a player who is becoming a free agent, you can work out a sign and trade. The CBA is pretty specific on most things, and there's no mention of the player having to be restricted or not, which I interpret as meaning it doesn't matter.

You are right in that, because Ben is unrestricted, he can sign with any team he wants to. However, he can still get more money if he were to do a sign-and-trade.

For example, if Ben does a sign-and-trade, his raises would be for 10.5 percent compared to eight percent if he were to sign with another team.

Let me give you a practical example.

If Ben did a sign-and-trade for a four-year deal with Detroit that started off at 10M, the contract would be worth $46.3 million. If he signed a similar deal with another team (four years, starting at $10M), that contract would be worth $44.8M. That 2.5 percent difference in raises amounts to a $1.5 million difference in the value of what's essentially the same contract.

Obviously, the higher the starting salary and the more years involved, the greater difference you would find between a sign-and-trade and your standard free agent signing.

I hope this answers your question. I apologize for not getting back to you sooner, but as you can imagine, I have spent (way more) time on the phone with agents, players, team execs, etc., today than I normally do and I haven't been able to respond to my e-mails as promptly as I would like.

At any rate, I hope you have a great Fourth of July weekend, and I hope this information helps you.

Take care