We need some discussion in here today.

Let's go.

The mavs attempt to play D, and are actually very improved.
Suns cant defend or rebound. so its obviously the mavs.

Mavericks, pretty easy. Better defense, better rebounding, and you could make an argument that their offense is better.

Survey says Glenn's topic is soft.

Survey says Glenn's topic is soft.

#1 answer on the poll [smilie=alpacacall.:

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+
http://www.crazynutracing.com/images/P1010061.JPG
=

http://www.rockpalast.de/bilder/bizarre98/danzig.jpg
and
http://www.decoratingdirect.co.uk/prodpics/large/RODSRTB.jpg

And the mavs are easily better.

With Amare healthy and Kurt Thomas, Suns might be pretty good....next season....

Dallas needs something. I cant quite put my finger on it, but they are missing a piece.

PHX is a joke.

If I HAD to pick, I would say Dallas, but in a series I would pick PHX.


I know that sounds strange, but hey.

Fuck y'all, I'll take the Suns, this is all subjective BS anyways, right?

Of course both teams are in the upper echelon of the NBA, but to me, Dallas is just too jumper heavy, and before you say that the Suns are too, they get a lot of easy baskets cutting to the hoop and play a really nice inside-out style for the Western Conference.

The Mavs, especially in the last 3 weeks or so, have done nothing to impress me, they seem to be playing the worst ball of the year when it matters the most, and I think Marion, Nash, Diaw, Barbosa are enough for me to say they're better than Dallas.

Also porn stash D'Antoni > the little general, and Suns bench > Mavs bench.

If they had a healthy Kurt Thomas, I think it would be almost a no brainer. (and of course, with a healthy Amare, it is a no brainer)

The Tim Thomas addition was a nice supplemental move, as well.

I'm not sure what you guys are seeing here:


10 Darrell Armstrong G 6-1 180 06/22/1968 Fayetteville State 11
25 Erick Dampier C 6-11 265 07/14/1975 Mississippi State 9
6 Marquis Daniels G 6-6 200 01/07/1981 Auburn 2
7 DeSagana Diop C 7-0 280 01/30/1982 Oak Hill Academy HS (VA) 4
44 Adrian Griffin G-F 6-5 230 07/04/1974 Seton Hall 6
34 Devin Harris G 6-3 185 02/27/1983 Wisconsin 1
5 Josh Howard F 6-7 210 04/28/1980 Wake Forest 2
28 Didier Ilunga-Mbenga C 7-0 245 12/30/1980 Congo 1
1 Rawle Marshall G-F 6-7 190 02/20/1982 Oakland University (MI) R
41 Dirk Nowitzki - C F 7-0 245 06/19/1978 Germany 7
24 Pavel Podkolzin C 7-5 260 01/15/1985 Russia 1
33 Josh Powell F 6-9 225 01/25/1983 North Carolina State R
42 Jerry Stackhouse G-F 6-6 218 11/05/1974 North Carolina 10
31 Jason Terry G 6-2 180 09/15/1977 Arizona 6
2 INJ-Keith Van Horn F 6-10 245 10/23/1975 Utah 8

That is so much better than this:


10 Leandro Barbosa G 6-3 188 11/28/1982 Brazil 2
19 Raja Bell G 6-5 210 09/19/1976 Florida International 5
11 Pat Burke C-F 6-11 250 12/14/1973 Auburn 1
3 Boris Diaw F 6-8 215 04/16/1982 France 2
55 Brian Grant - C F-C 6-9 254 03/05/1972 Xavier (Ohio) 11
50 Eddie House G 6-1 175 05/14/1978 Arizona State 5
22 James Jones F 6-8 220 10/04/1980 Miami (Fla.) 2
31 Shawn Marion - C F 6-7 228 05/07/1978 UNLV 6
13 Steve Nash - C G 6-3 195 02/07/1974 Santa Clara 9
32 INJ-Amare Stoudemire C 6-10 245 11/16/1982 Cypress Creek (Orlando, FL) '02 3
40 INJ-Kurt Thomas C 6-9 235 10/04/1972 Texas Christian 10
2 Tim Thomas F 6-10 240 02/26/1977 Villanova 8
1 Dijon Thompson G-F 6-7 195 03/23/1983 UCLA R
15 Nikoloz Tskitishvili F 7-0 225 04/14/1983 Georgia (Europe) 3

If you don't already know, these teams play each other tonight, not that one game will determine anything.

Are you guys just looking at their records in the standings or something? Not one person besides me thinks the Suns are a better squad?

I guess ol' Glenn is "out of step Charlie" again.

WTF does that puzzle mean Gutz?

(Also, thanks for being in the game chat last night because if you weren't there I was gonna have to endure Kstat constantly "sigh"ing at Ben for not blocking every single shot that the Cavs took.)

the Suns have the more talented squad, but come on they are missing their best 2 bigman, i mean its pretty impressive what they ve done this season without Amare....they got Diaw, Bell, Jones and Kurt Thomas, plus Nash and Marion playing as good as it gets...but they cant win vs Dallas or San Antonio without bigman who can rebound the ball...Dallas showed improvement at D ( Diop, Griffin, their atlethic wings) and they got a deep talented squad too, some nice scorers off the bench + Dirk, who plays like a MVP

Of course both teams are in the upper echelon of the NBA, but to me, Dallas is just too jumper heavy, and before you say that the Suns are too, they get a lot of easy baskets cutting to the hoop and play a really nice inside-out style for the Western Conference.

And the Mavericks don't cut to the basket? The Mavericks have great cutters such as Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Stack, Harris, and Daniels. They are a lot better than the Suns at cutting and attacking the basket. The Mavericks are one of the best teams at scoring in the paint. The Suns are generally outside only. They have nothing but chuckers in House, Barbosa, TT, Bell, Jones.


The Mavs, especially in the last 3 weeks or so, have done nothing to impress me, they seem to be playing the worst ball of the year when it matters the most, and I think Marion, Nash, Diaw, Barbosa are enough for me to say they're better than Dallas.

The Suns haven't been all that impressive in that span of time either. At least Dallas has a big win over the Spurs at San Antonio. The Suns choked a 17 point lead to the Pistons.

Last 10: Suns 5-5, Mavs: 6-4



Also porn stash D'Antoni > the little general, and Suns bench > Mavs bench.

I prefer Johnson myself. He's instilled defense into one of the worst defensive teams in NBA history and has the best record of any coach in their first 100 games. D'Antoni has yet to teach any of these players how to play defense.

Mavs bench is also better. They actually have good defenders off the bench, such as Devin Harris, one of the best onball defenders at the PG position. Hell, I'd take Stackhouse average D over anyone on Phoenix bench. And Dampier is much more serviceable than Brian Grant and even Kurt Thomas.


If they had a healthy Kurt Thomas, I think it would be almost a no brainer.

WHOA WHOA WHOA! [smilie=arnold.gif]

That's almost as comical as Laker fans claiming Karl Malone playing would make the series a different outcome. There isn't much of a difference between him and Dampier.


The Tim Thomas addition was a nice supplemental move, as well.

Can't argue there, although they cut defense and rebounding to add offense only.

I'm not sure what you guys are seeing here:


10 Darrell Armstrong G 6-1 180 06/22/1968 Fayetteville State 11
25 Erick Dampier C 6-11 265 07/14/1975 Mississippi State 9
6 Marquis Daniels G 6-6 200 01/07/1981 Auburn 2
7 DeSagana Diop C 7-0 280 01/30/1982 Oak Hill Academy HS (VA) 4
44 Adrian Griffin G-F 6-5 230 07/04/1974 Seton Hall 6
34 Devin Harris G 6-3 185 02/27/1983 Wisconsin 1
5 Josh Howard F 6-7 210 04/28/1980 Wake Forest 2
28 Didier Ilunga-Mbenga C 7-0 245 12/30/1980 Congo 1
1 Rawle Marshall G-F 6-7 190 02/20/1982 Oakland University (MI) R
41 Dirk Nowitzki - C F 7-0 245 06/19/1978 Germany 7
24 Pavel Podkolzin C 7-5 260 01/15/1985 Russia 1
33 Josh Powell F 6-9 225 01/25/1983 North Carolina State R
42 Jerry Stackhouse G-F 6-6 218 11/05/1974 North Carolina 10
31 Jason Terry G 6-2 180 09/15/1977 Arizona 6
2 INJ-Keith Van Horn F 6-10 245 10/23/1975 Utah 8


That is so much better than this:


10 Leandro Barbosa G 6-3 188 11/28/1982 Brazil 2
19 Raja Bell G 6-5 210 09/19/1976 Florida International 5
11 Pat Burke C-F 6-11 250 12/14/1973 Auburn 1
3 Boris Diaw F 6-8 215 04/16/1982 France 2
55 Brian Grant - C F-C 6-9 254 03/05/1972 Xavier (Ohio) 11
50 Eddie House G 6-1 175 05/14/1978 Arizona State 5
22 James Jones F 6-8 220 10/04/1980 Miami (Fla.) 2
31 Shawn Marion - C F 6-7 228 05/07/1978 UNLV 6
13 Steve Nash - C G 6-3 195 02/07/1974 Santa Clara 9
32 INJ-Amare Stoudemire C 6-10 245 11/16/1982 Cypress Creek (Orlando, FL) '02 3
40 INJ-Kurt Thomas C 6-9 235 10/04/1972 Texas Christian 10
2 Tim Thomas F 6-10 240 02/26/1977 Villanova 8
1 Dijon Thompson G-F 6-7 195 03/23/1983 UCLA R
15 Nikoloz Tskitishvili F 7-0 225 04/14/1983 Georgia (Europe) 3

Much better? I completely disagree with that. Mavericks have a lot of role-players who play good-great defense and/or can rebound(Dampier, Diop, Griffin, Harris, Armstrong, Marshall). The Suns have nothing BUT three point shooters around Marion and Nash.

BOOOOOOOOOOO@throwing around names [smilie=argue.gif]

Dallas lost a game to GSW last night that they HAD to have.

GSW had lost 9 in a row.

They are now 1-3 vs. GSW this year.

You mention the PHX loss to the Pistons, did you see the last Pistons-Mavs game?

PHX was on a 5th game in 7 nights on the road when they blew that lead, their legs were gone.

If you can post a link for the points in the paint leaders by team on the season, I'd love to see that.

Mavs bench is also better. They actually have good defenders off the bench, such as Devin Harris, one of the best onball defenders at the PG position. Hell, I'd take Stackhouse average D over anyone on Phoenix bench. And Dampier is much more serviceable than Brian Grant and even Kurt Thomas.

Also, don't include Stack in Dallas' bench anymore, he's a starter now.

WTF does that puzzle mean Gutz?

(Also, thanks for being in the game chat last night because if you weren't there I was gonna have to endure Kstat constantly "sigh"ing at Ben for not blocking every single shot that the Cavs took.)
1.)Rubber + Rim= Danzig and Brown paint Brush. The equation is beyond comprehension.

2.) Yes, if you dont make a jumpshot kstat will hate you and your children. Oddly enough i'm really worried that Dale Davis is his deadbeat father. [smilie=anxious.gif] If its dale dabis or a jumpshooter, its a wet dream for the Big K. If Dale Davis was a Jumpshooter. Well the result would be sickening for Kstat.

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/ART/ART411/AA039991.jpg
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http://www.security-protocols.com/textfiles/unix-humor/gates.guestbook.gif

I prefer Johnson myself. He's instilled defense into one of the worst defensive teams in NBA history and has the best record of any coach in their first 100 games. D'Antoni has yet to teach any of these players how to play defense.

Avery's done a nice job, for sure.

But D'Antoni's got one of these, and should be in the running aagin this year.
http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/192488.jpg

The Mavericks beat teams by more, rebound better, handle the ball about equally, get to the line more, and have beat better teams. I'll take the Mavericks.

Dallas needs something. I cant quite put my finger on it, but they are missing a piece.

PHX is a joke.

If I HAD to pick, I would say Dallas, but in a series I would pick PHX.


I know that sounds strange, but hey.

zeeb took my thoughts here.

Bastard.

So their record against Golden State determines how good of a team they are?

That was a pretty bad loss for sure but that was Dallas' 4th game in six nights, not that easy. Tonight in Phoenix will be five in seven.

Like I said, that GS loss was terrible, but at least they can say they are competing for something(HCA in the West), which is more than what Phoenix can say.

This is Avery's first full season as a coach, and he has a better shot at winning than D this year. If D can win it in his first full season with a one-sided team then I think Avery can win it with the 3rd most balanced team in the league.

See, now we have some conversation, lol.

I don't want anyone else voting for PHX in this poll.

I want it to be 27-1 when PHX makes it to the finals.

^bold prediction [smilie=boat.gif]

That is a bold prediction. If phoenix makes the finals I will build an incense-burning glenn shrine in the corner of my living room and pray to it every time I want knowledge of the future.

Of course both teams are in the upper echelon of the NBA, but to me, Dallas is just too jumper heavy, and before you say that the Suns are too, they get a lot of easy baskets cutting to the hoop and play a really nice inside-out style for the Western Conference.

They're both jumpshot heavy teams, and the difference isn't quite what you think. 3 out of every 4 shot attempts by their leading scorers is a jumpshot.

Dallas chokes in the playoffs. Suns.

The Suns are better than Dallas, if everyone were healthy. But since that's not the case, I vote Dallas.

I agree with h1man.

IF Amare and Kurt were healthy.

In a series right now, I got Mavs. There are so much deeper than the Suns.

Jason Terry is fucking underrated. He makes the shots when Dirk cant hit them.

Dont get me wrong, I hate the fucking MAvs, especially Cuban, but to be honest, when their team is hot, their hard to beat, and Im sure the Suns cant.

Suns are all about fastbreaks, much similar to last year. Their defense has improved slightly, but the Mavs D is better. Mavs are better rounded.

Last night is a good example of why I like PHX better.

PHX's best player (arguably) only scores 6 points and they still win comfortably.

If Dirk only scored 6 points do you think the Mavs would stand any chance? (And yes, I realize that one is a PG and one is a C/PF.)

PHX can kill you with any of 5-6 different guys, I don't see that with Dallas at all. I would think that Pistons fans would see this, of all people.

Last night is a good example of why I like PHX better.

PHX's best player (arguably) only scores 6 points and they still win comfortably.

If Dirk only scored 6 points do you think the Mavs would stand any chance? (And yes, I realize that one is a PG and one is a C/PF.)

PHX can kill you with any of 5-6 different guys, I don't see that with Dallas at all. I would think that Pistons fans would see this, of all people.

Howard terry stack can all pour 25+ any given day. I'm not a Mavs ballsucker, but I think they have a clear advantage.

Howard terry stack can all pour 25+ any given day.

I agree, they can. One could even argue that they must.

Dallas drops yet another game that they had to win.

Howard terry stack can all pour 25+ any given day.

I agree, they can. One could even argue that they must.

Dallas drops yet another game that they had to win.

Are you arguing they all must every night? I'd say its the other way where PHO will have to rely and Barbosa and Diaw with I'm guessing 0 playoff game experience to be the 3rd and 4th options.
Dallas only needs one other guy than Dirk to ball every night now to have a chance, supposing this defensive improvement isn't a regular season mirage. PHO offers up Raja Bell as an X-factor and nothing else.

Naw, I wasn't saying they all must, but with so many players in the rotation that are non-factors on offense (Diop, Mbenga, Griffin, Marshall, Powell, etc) at least one, maybe two of them needs to put up major points for Dallas to win.

If they are counting on Stack to carry them through the playoffs as their #2 option, then I hope they don't have high expectations.

For Dallas' 4 "weapons" I can see about 7 on PHX. Dallas' D is better, no doubt, but is it enough to win in the playoffs if Dirk is the only one clicking? It will be interesting to watch.

Last night is a good example of why I like PHX better.

PHX's best player (arguably) only scores 6 points and they still win comfortably.

If Dirk only scored 6 points do you think the Mavs would stand any chance? (And yes, I realize that one is a PG and one is a C/PF.)

PHX can kill you with any of 5-6 different guys, I don't see that with Dallas at all. I would think that Pistons fans would see this, of all people.

Dallas played their game yesterday, and lost. I'd expect the same from the Pistons, Spurs, or Heat if they tried to run-and-gun with the best team at it in the league. I'd also expect a Pistons fan to notice they're among the worst defensive teams in the league. A team of middle-school girls can rebound regularly against the Suns They are the very definition of chucker, and when they win they'll win big.

Yea i never get why teams try to beat them at their game. the only consistently successful team at that is the spurs. Mostly because they let Manu and Parker eat them alive.

And of course, Dallas was on the end of a back-to-back, so I don't think this game was fair to judge them by.

And of course, Dallas was on the end of a back-to-back, so I don't think this game was fair to judge them by.

I'm not sure if that was intended for me or not, but to be clear I mentioned this on page 1 of this thread:


If you don't already know, these teams play each other tonight, not that one game will determine anything.

I'm certainly not basing anything significant on what happened last night, except to say that what happened is an example of exactly why I like PHX. Dirk went nuts, but so did 3 or 4 Suns.

When you say that Dallas played "PHX's style" you are implying that Dallas' style is a lot different, from what I have seen from them, it's different in that they are better defensively, but they still want to run on O. They're certainly not trying to keep teams in the 80's by slowing it down.

When you say that Dallas played "PHX's style" you are implying that Dallas' style is a lot different, from what I have seen from them, it's different in that they are better defensively, but they still want to run on O. They're certainly not trying to keep teams in the 80's by slowing it down.

I'm not implying anything. They played no defense with a lot of jumpers aka Phoenix Suns basketball. Offensively, they both take a lot of jumpers, but it's a completely different story on the other end.


I'm not sure if that was intended for me or not, but to be clear I mentioned this on page 1 of this thread:

It wasn't meant for you, just in general. But thanks for the bold quote.

I've never really looked at this stat before, but "assist differential" is intriguing to me.

Here are the top 3 teams in the NBA in "assist differential per game":

PHX +7.73
DET +5.32
SA +4.59

Dallas is 11th at +0.60.

I'm not sure what conclusion to draw from that, but that's some good company in the top 3 there.

glenn, i would have thought that great defensive teams would have great assist differentials. since they get assists and defend the passing lanes well, the other team is usually forced to go one-on-one.

as far as phoenix, i just assume they are "out assisting" everyone. not too much defense there. just my theory.

I've never really looked at this stat before, but "assist differential" is intriguing to me.

Here are the top 3 teams in the NBA in "assist differential per game":

PHX +7.73
DET +5.32
SA +4.59

Dallas is 11th at +0.60.

I'm not sure what conclusion to draw from that, but that's some good company in the top 3 there.

It's easy to load up on assists when you're averaging the most field goal attempts in the league. At the same time, I think teams play into the Suns lack of defensive pressure and just start throwing bombs. I guess they feel there is no need for a lot of ball movement if the guy really isn't guarding you anyways.

They played no defense with a lot of jumpers aka Phoenix Suns basketball.

Isn't it possible that that is actually Dallas Mavericks basketball and that their new-found "defensive prowess" was just a fleeting aberration?

Not saying that it is, but they've got a lot more experience not playing D than they do actually playing it.

The Mavs are giving up 97 pts/gm over their past 12 games. So are they tuning Avery out? I'm not going that far, because they've shown flashes of D.

Here are the points allowed totals for their past 12 games:
122
83
97
107
108
79
101
86
77
73
114
117

To me it looks like they played solid D in about 4 of those 12 games, and the rest of the time they are average to way below average.

They look like they don't know what type of team they are right now.

------


It's easy to load up on assists when you're averaging the most field goal attempts in the league.

I'd buy that if we were looking at "total assists per game" but not for differential. Their opponents are getting more possessions too.

They played no defense with a lot of jumpers aka Phoenix Suns basketball.

Isn't it possible that that is actually Dallas Mavericks basketball and that their new-found "defensive prowess" was just a fleeting aberration?

Not saying that it is, but they've got a lot more experience not playing D than they do actually playing it.

The Mavs are giving up 97 pts/gm over their past 12 games. So are they tuning Avery out? I'm not going that far, because they've shown flashes of D.

Here are the points allowed totals for their past 12 games:
122
83
97
107
108
79
101
86
77
73
114
117

To me it looks like they played solid D in about 4 of those 12 games, and the rest of the time they are average to way below average.

They look like they don't know what type of team they are right now.

That's a great question, I've noticed it too. I guess we'll see just how good their D is in about a week.

I'd buy that if we were looking at "total assists per game" but not for differential. Their opponents are getting more possessions too.

It's not about possessions, it's about ball movement. I've watched a few Suns games in the last month and 2 stick out for me. The Kings and Nuggets both have pretty good ball movement, but against the Suns the movement disappeared and basically whoever had the ball coming up the court took the shot. If I remember correctly both teams lost, and by double digits.

It's not about possessions, it's about ball movement. I've watched a few Suns games in the last month and 2 stick out for me. The Kings and Nuggets both have pretty good ball movement, but against the Suns the movement disappeared and basically whoever had the ball coming up the court took the shot. If I remember correctly both teams lost, and by double digits.

That's a great observation. So are you saying that you think that phenomenon is going to self correct when the playoffs start? i.e. teams will start moving the ball aginst the Suns just because it's the playoffs?

It's not about possessions, it's about ball movement. I've watched a few Suns games in the last month and 2 stick out for me. The Kings and Nuggets both have pretty good ball movement, but against the Suns the movement disappeared and basically whoever had the ball coming up the court took the shot. If I remember correctly both teams lost, and by double digits.

That's a great observation. So are you saying that you think that phenomenon is going to self correct when the playoffs start? i.e. teams will start moving the ball aginst the Suns just because it's the playoffs?

Well, I expect them to start playing playoff-caliber basketball. I'm not saying their assist averages will jump by 5 against the Suns, but you should definitely see an improvement.

Thanks for the discussion, I enjoyed it.

I'm ready for the playoffs now please.

Thanks for the discussion, I enjoyed it.

I'm ready for the playoffs now please.

Definitely, was fun.

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/2285/win9hv.jpg

I figure you of all people will appreciate my use of the brown paintbrush.

I'm enjoying all of the national "experts" that are coming out for the Lakers thinking they are going to take out the Suns in the playoffs after yesterday.

Greg Anthony and Mark Jackson are the first two that I've seen, but I'm sure there is more.

I think the Suns are in trouble too. I can't blame them when they are missing their starting PF and Center though. I wouldn't have much faith in our chances without Wallace x 2.

I'm enjoying all of the national "experts" that are coming out for the Lakers thinking they are going to take out the Suns in the playoffs after yesterday.

Greg Anthony and Mark Jackson are the first two that I've seen, but I'm sure there is more.

Marc Stein's take...


Charles (San Jose): Marc, what do you think about Greg Anthony thinking the Lakers have a chance to upset the Suns because they dominated a home game without Steve Nash and Raja Bell, with reduced minutes for Shawn Marion, and with significant minutes for two guys who won't see any daylight in the series - Nikoloz Tskitishvili and Pat Burke?

Marc Stein: (1:17 PM ET ) I think Greg, my old buddy from our Fullerton-Vegas days, is entitled to his opinion. i just don't agree with it. Suns would much rather see the Lakers as opposed to the Kings. I expect Phoenix to run them off the floor in five. Six at the most if Kobe goes nuts.

I agree with stein. The lakers will win 2 at best. But i doubt it even goes that far. The suns can outrun the lakers all day. unless Nash goes down with an injury, its all suns.

Poll stands at 18-2, I guess we'll actually get to find out now.

i reverse my vote. there should be a playoff poll. not asking whose better, but will win. because far as i'm concerned the clippers on paper are better than the suns. but its not that simple when you run into each other in the playoffs. as we found out with cleveland.

With Amare healthy and Kurt Thomas, Suns might be pretty good....next season....'

Exactly.

Phoenix deserves some credit for getting this far w/o those two, although they had relatively weak playoff opponents and still needed 7 games to win (the Lakers did not deserve to be in the playoffs - the worst roster in the NBA with the exception of Kobe - and the Clips simply weren't ready to go any farther as a team - too young and inexperienced).

Dallas easily > Phoenix, IMO.