Ben Wallace flips out at Saunders

Pistons center refuses to re-enter Friday's game against the Magic after coach benches him earlier.

Chris McCosky / The Detroit News


AUBURN HILLS -- Sometimes you snap. Even the great ones snap.

An 82-game schedule is as much a mental grind as it is a physical one. Over a three-week span, you've had to knock heads and elbows and knees twice with Shaquille O'Neal. You are playing against the biggest, strongest and fastest of your profession -- Miami, Indiana, New Jersey, Dallas, Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Phoenix -- one after the next.

You get weary. Your body aches and your nerves get frayed. Things that used to roll right off you are starting to get under your skin.

You are, after all, human. You snap.

On Friday night, Ben Wallace snapped. With 7:57 left in the fourth quarter of a 89-87 loss in Orlando, and the Pistons trailing by eight points, coach Flip Saunders took Wallace out of the game. Wallace was clearly peeved. Never mind that he had played all 15 minutes of the second half to that point, he stormed to the end of the bench uttering a torrent of unprintables directed at Saunders.

Saunders explained the move to Wallace, who waved him off.

A couple of minutes later, Saunders wanted to put him back into the game. Wallace didn't move. He wouldn't even look at Saunders. With the Pistons back in contention and threatening to steal a victory, Saunders again summoned Wallace.

Again, Wallace waved him off and stayed seated at the bench, not even getting up to join the huddle during timeouts.

"He said he couldn't go," was all Saunders would say after the game.

Wallace made it clear he wasn't injured and that he will be ready to play today against the Pacers.

In the clear light of a new day, Wallace will regret what he did. To refuse to enter a game is so beyond his character, it's hard to believe it happened. He is a captain and a leader on the best team in basketball. His identity -- and thus the identity of this team -- has been forged on the principles of going to work every day, having your teammates' backs and relentlessly fighting through all the bumps and hurdles life throws at you.

For him to have hung his teammates out to dry like that, for sure, will be tough for him to swallow today. Already, the team was without Richard Hamilton, who was in Coatesville, Pa., attending a family funeral, and Rasheed Wallace, who left in the third quarter because of back spasms.

When Ben Wallace refused to come back, Saunders had to use rookie Jason Maxiell, who hadn't dressed in nine games and hadn't played in the previous 13, to spell Antonio McDyess for four minutes. Then, with Wallace still refusing to come in, Saunders went with Dale Davis and McDyess down the stretch.

"Those guys on the floor really spilled their guts," Saunders said.

They did. Maxiell had a basket and a steal. Davis had four points. McDyess chased down a missed free throw in the final seconds to give the Pistons one more shot at tying the score.

"Those guys did a great job," Ben Wallace said. "They stayed ready and prepared and really gave us a lift."

Ben Wallace wouldn't go into all the causes of his frustration. Neither he nor Saunders felt it was any kind of crisis. Several teammates waved it off as a temporary spat between Wallace and Saunders -- nothing horribly unusual -- and felt it would clear up by today.

Part of Ben Wallace's frustration might stem from his problems at the free-throw line. He has made just 5 of his last 32 attempts. He missed two free throws in the fourth quarter Friday, and was still stewing over that when Saunders pulled him.

Ben Wallace also said earlier in the week that he didn't want to have his minutes reduced. He feels like to be best prepared for the postseason, he needs to maintain his normal work load.

One frustration Ben Wallace will voice loud and clear, though, is with the way the Pistons are playing. Though they are winning, and though they played a mostly solid game at Miami on Thursday, he is bothered by what he calls, "garbage basketball", particularly early in games.

"We can't keep putting ourselves in a hole every game," he said. "We are just not coming together at the start of games like we should and then we have to play like super heroes just to catch up. We can't keep making these games so hard on ourselves."

The Pistons were tired and terrible for the most part in Orlando. They produced a season-low 14 assists. They settled for quick perimeter shots. Ben Wallace had only one shot and rarely touched the ball. He has only taken nine shots the last three games combined.

He's not asking to take a lot of shots. He just wants to be involved in the sets so that they aren't playing four on five at the offensive end.

This is hardly a new rant from Ben Wallace. He went off on the same issue earlier in the season and it helped sparked the team's 37-5 start.

Now, nobody is endorsing a sit-down strike as the right way to act out frustration. And it is mildly troubling that a 61-victory team would have to deal with such issues this late in the season. But, over the years, a Ben Wallace meltdown has generally wound up being a good tonic for the team.

It usually sounds the alarm that it is time to get serious.

The playoffs are two weeks away.

You can reach Chris McCosky at (313) 222-1489 or chris.mccosky@detnews.com.



http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060409/SPORTS0102/604090344/1127


Dosnt seem like a big deal to me.
Comments?

That's not like Ben at all. I suppose I can understand his frustration, but I'd like to know what the real problem was. He says he doesn't want reduced minutes, so he couldn't have been mad at too much time. And it's perfectly reasonable to be pulled for a breather after playing the first 15 minutes of the second half. Oh well, whatever... as long as this crap doesn't happen in the playoffs. I really don't want to have to search for a new coach AGAIN if Ben and Flip keep getting into these spats.

Flip was just trying to get Ben a little rest before the stretch run. He had played the whole 2nd half before that. Just a 2 minute breather. I don't get this at all, especially with Ben Wallace. It makes me think there is something else going on in his life off of the basketball court that is frustrating him.

Flip was just trying to get Ben a little rest before the stretch run. He had played the whole 2nd half before that. Just a 2 minute breather. I don't get this at all, especially with Ben Wallace.

And it was a 2nd of a Back-to-Back after guarding Shaq for 48 minutes the previous night. I would assume he would want a couple minutes there.

BTW, the Pistons went on a 15-2 run right when Ben came out of the game.

That's not like Ben at all. I suppose I can understand his frustration, but I'd like to know what the real problem was. He says he doesn't want reduced minutes, so he couldn't have been mad at too much time. And it's perfectly reasonable to be pulled for a breather after playing the first 15 minutes of the second half. Oh well, whatever... as long as this crap doesn't happen in the playoffs. I really don't want to have to search for a new coach AGAIN if Ben and Flip keep getting into these spats.

I don't think he was as mad at Flip as he was at the team. Just like he said, he's tired of being one of the only guys out there trying to win a game before 5 minutes left in the 3rd quarter. He was probably frustrated looking at up the score and seeing the Poorlando Magic leading by double digits. It seemed to me more like a message to the team to get their shit together and play some ball, and they almost pulled it out. Of course this is all speculation, and no one knows except for Ben himself.

It might just be time for him to bring the goggles back out.
http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/950/bwallace2560512192xx.jpg

Ben is a moron for doing that IMO. I am sorry but Flip is the coach, even if people don't want to Ben needs to trust him. It wasn't Flip that had them down by 15 at the half.. If he was mad at his teammates take it up with them after the game. He wans to get paid like a superstar, so he better quit acting like a diva. I don't care if it was 1 time. Alll it took to redefine Pippen's career was one time.

Ben is a moron for doing that IMO. I am sorry but Flip is the coach, even if people don't want to Ben needs to trust him. It wasn't Flip that had them down by 15 at the half.. If he was mad at his teammates take it up with them after the game. He wans to get paid like a superstar, so he better quit acting like a diva. I don't care if it was 1 time. Alll it took to redefine Pippen's career was one time.

Moron is a pretty strong word. Just like I said, I think this had very little to do with Flip and more with the team. Maybe he's brought it up after a game, one of the many they fool around for the first 30 or so minutes and then have to play perfect basketball to win. None of us has any idea, so let's not act like we do.

And yeah, Ben is acting like such a diva. The man could have been making superstar money by now, but he refused to renegotiate his current contract because it's the one he signed. He fired his agent and hired a lawyer to just make sure the t's are crossed the i's are dotted. The media is trying to make a story out of nothing, and I find it hilarious that so many people are buying into it. I highly doubt Ben refusing to go back into a worthless game against a worthless team is going to 'redefine' his career.

The people calling Ben a moron and a diva are fuckin morons and divas. Dude has done too much shit for this team for people to judge him based on one article. I'm sure I'd be pissed if the philosophy that won us a championship was vaporized by the new coach. Ben throws hints out in the media, while keeping it unnamed and non-specific. Flip didn't get that message apparently, so Ben said fuck it. Not the best move, but I'm not gonna label him for it either.

Hmmm i dont think this is a big deal in the long run for this season. Ben and Flip obviously dont get along. Unlike LB Flip is too soft to confront ben when he's unhappy. So he does as much as the coach allows. I only remember one time Ben tried to blast on LB from a "basketball" perspective. Confronted him, showed him where HE fucked up and they never called each other out again on the basketball level.

Comrade i partially agree that in the end it was about the team. But it would be hard for him not to see Flip as the catalyst for his fustrations with the team sometimes. Either way i blame the coach for insubordination from a player with no prior history of doing something like that. None of Ben's other coaches woulda accepted that shit Flip did. Its no coincidence that he took it that far. I dont think it'll happen again. Just some "for the record" shit between them. This group is so close and good that things like this become irrelevent. I'm glad he's hassling Flip. Somebody had to. His assistants wont, and its their job. So no big deal to me.

again shows why this is Chaunceys team

again shows why this is Chaunceys team
ok how so? Chauncy didnt get the team to play defense. Honestly I doubt there is a remedial ego level of thinking that this is any one guys team overall. on offense Billups is the floor leader. On defense Wallace is the floor leader. both just as equally important as leaders.

On top of that this wasnt even a Cbill vs Ben wallace thing. That was pretty left field there. [smilie=baby.gif] Its more or less Flip getting what he needed. Which is someone not agreeing with him like his headless assistants do.

Ben and Flip obviously dont get along.
I think they might get along fine, it just shows the lack of respect that Ben has for Flip as a coach. That's the danger of being a player's coach.

One more thing to add:

Remember last year when Ben complained to the media that LB was playing them too much and guys were getting tired? Now he's complaining that he has to sit and feels he needs to play more.

One more thing to add:

Remember last year when Ben complained to the media that LB was playing them too much and guys were getting tired? Now he's complaining that he has to sit and feels he needs to play more.
I dont think his complaint is the issue. the issue is that the coach doesnt get much of his respect. And doesnt really command it.

But once i agree its not a big deal. I totally disagree that they are cool with each other. Ben Wallace and everyone else on this team pushes that shit to the side in order to get ready for the playoffs. We dropped our last whiner(bye bye darko). i still say the LB thing wasnt a distraction. And neither is Flip and Ben.

comrade nailed it (according to rob parker). his moles claim ben was pissed at his teammates for not including him in the offense, or just plain frustrated with them.

people getting pissed at ben are wrong, and seem to be blowing this way out of proportion.

lets get some things streight here.

1) this is ben's team. he's the only guy thats been here since the beggining (before 50 wins). if some throw in in the grant hill debacle doesnt turn into 3 time dpoy and the premier defensive big man in the league, pistons are the boston celitcs of the league.

2) ben didnt disrespect flip, and even if he did, who the hell cares? ben trumps flip, 100 out of 100 times. we can win without flip, not without ben.

3) some of you dont seem to understand how this team works. the players police themselves, flip just steers the ship. rasheed getting t's left and right? thats fine. sheed showing up 15 min before tipoff? hes still starting. ben refusing to go in? hes the boss. flip didnt come here to boss these guys around or discipline that. pistons are vets and in control of themselves. flip is still the coach, but hes not going to go asserting his authority on this team just to let everyone know. i find it humurous sometimes when i see people saying flip should treat the pistons like tom izzo treats a freshmen. apples and cumquats.

The people calling Ben a moron and a diva are fuckin morons and divas. Dude has done too much shit for this team for people to judge him based on one article. I'm sure I'd be pissed if the philosophy that won us a championship was vaporized by the new coach. Ben throws hints out in the media, while keeping it unnamed and non-specific. Flip didn't get that message apparently, so Ben said fuck it. Not the best move, but I'm not gonna label him for it either.

Quote me Fekz, don't don't throw it out there like anybody but me said it, If you have a problem with me say don't pussyfoot around it. My point was simple, there is a right time and place to show your anger. I know the game is meaningless in the grand scheme,and he may have been mad at his teammates but you don't do that.

If he is the leader and not Chauncey what message does that send? If you get pist enough you can quit on the team to make them play nice. You would have never seen MJ, Wilt, Bird, Russell or any superstar refuse to comeback in. As I said in my first post, one moment re-defined Scottie Pippen, after he refused to go back in the refusal and Pippen were forever linked. I know that was playoff game, but if we got ths win on Friday we would have clinched HC Wed. Maybe me my word choice was hard, but I am not a fair weather fan. My background in real life just has taught me regardless of adversity you don't quit on your team for a minute, qtr, game or whatever, In the past Ben has called out his teammates in public and that worked why stoop to this level. Sure guys responded but I just he could have done real harm to the way he is precieved.

Odd explosion for Pistons captain Ben Wallace, who declined coach Flip Saunders' attempts to put him back in the Friday loss at Orlando. No, apparently he wasn't intimidated by Darko Milicic. Wallace has those fits of pique occasionally, and Detroit media reports said he was cursing Saunders. A free agent, perhaps Wallace has had enough in Detroit and will want to move on.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

comrade nailed it (according to rob parker). his moles claim ben was pissed at his teammates for not including him in the offense, or just plain frustrated with them.

people getting pissed at ben are wrong, and seem to be blowing this way out of proportion.

lets get some things streight here.

1) this is ben's team. he's the only guy thats been here since the beggining (before 50 wins). if some throw in in the grant hill debacle doesnt turn into 3 time dpoy and the premier defensive big man in the league, pistons are the boston celitcs of the league.

2) ben didnt disrespect flip, and even if he did, who the hell cares? ben trumps flip, 100 out of 100 times. we can win without flip, not without ben.

3) some of you dont seem to understand how this team works. the players police themselves, flip just steers the ship. rasheed getting t's left and right? thats fine. sheed showing up 15 min before tipoff? hes still starting. ben refusing to go in? hes the boss. flip didnt come here to boss these guys around or discipline that. pistons are vets and in control of themselves. flip is still the coach, but hes not going to go asserting his authority on this team just to let everyone know. i find it humurous sometimes when i see people saying flip should treat the pistons like tom izzo treats a freshmen. apples and cumquats.
i agree with your first point. half of your second. And a lil bit of your 3rd. yea the players are policing themselves these days and are capable. But theres nothing wrong with wanting to see them in an environment that pushes them further than they push themselves. not really the environment we have now. But its no big deal. the players can handle themselves. and comparing it to treating them like freshman is ridiculously extreme.

My one complaint and the only issue that bothers me. Is back to an earlier point that Flip surrounding himself with asskissing coaching staff of the year. unlike with the last two coaches. the assistants have no separate set of nuts to suggest things and remind Flip about the defense. I think Ben had to do their job for them. Which is a lil' unfair to him. Otherwise Ben and Flip wont be golfing together. thats as bout as bad as its gonna get.

He’s a tough, no nonsense dude. Earlier in the season, he talked about how he didn’t know what his role was with the team. After dominating the league defensively for the last 4 or 5 years, Ben Wallace went from William Wallace with the Scots and Irish behind him, to simply William Wallace, soldier. Our team’s identity changed drastically from what it has been in the past. Ben is the anchor, we all know that, but lately, he’s been a one man show on the defensive side.

Whenever he seems to get pissed, call the team out or do something like refuse to re-enter the game, it’s for a reason. Ben’s a man that has seen his army go from being a wall, to being a brigade that charges. We’ve gone from sword fighting in the trenches to slinging arrows from bows over 50 feet away. Our team has changed as far as tactics, but we still have the same heart. Ben is dissatisfied when 100% effort isn’t being shown throughout the game and he got sick of it.

Was he wrong to do it the way he did it? Of course! A lot of people have said, he should have at least apologized. He said he’d do it on the court because that’s what he’s about and in my opinion, he did. Ben went out there and handled his business. After the game, he said “I’ve learned from my mistakes and we’ll move on.” I totally agree. I think that his play and that acknowledgement of the fact that he fucked up by doing it the way he did it was good enough.

Well, where to go from here? I think we’ll be tougher and play harder defense, as exhibited against an Indiana team that plays tough and really “goes at us.” I think that when it’s all said and done, these Pistons will not only win it all, but it will be special. It will be dominant and we will collectively scream “DEEEETROIT BASKETBAAAALLL!” at the end of the day.

it was intereting to see Ben get so many touches the following game vs. Indy. for many points, the offense nearly ran through him, rather than Sheed.

i wonder if this was:

a. Ben demanding the ball
b. Flip "throwing him a bone"
c. the team (namely, chauncey, as the PG) deciding that Ben needs to be more involved

regardless, i'm not too worried about this from Ben. Ben's little spats come once in a while, but it's usually from him being upset with the team's toughness and/or focus. the team usually responds positively from it.

Ben's little spats usually come from him being upset with the team's toughness and/or focus. BINGO.

I was surprised, saddened and maybe a little gassy when I heard about this.

Wobb Parker's column today said that Ben didn't feel that an apology from him was necessary.

I hope it's not a big deal, Ben gets the benefit of the doubt from me.

btw, did anyone else hear McCosky on Jamie & Brady this morning talking about it?

it was funny to hear McCosky get pissed when the Brady was asking, "if Ben had done this with another coach, isn't it conceivable that he would get a fine or suspension?"

my answer would probably have been "no", too, but he was acting as if Brady was talking crazy. they were going at it for a few moments with McCosky throwing in a sarcastic "can i speak??"

http://www.pistonsbball.com/miscpics/mccosky.jpg

whoa, when you do a google image search for "chris mccosky", pistonsbball comes out first. [smilie=arrgh.jpg]

whoa, when you do a google image search for "chris mccosky", pistonsbball comes out first. [smilie=arrgh.jpg]

lol, might not be the kind of association you want there Matt.

I didn't hear McCosky w/ Jamie and Brady but I did hear Brady start talking as though it was clear Ben wasn't going to resign with the Pistons and then Jamie and Shep respond as though that wasn't completely assinine. That show is so fucking terrible.

I am not trying to pile on Ben, but please tell me why Ben deserves the ball in his hands? We can't count on Ben when he gets the ball on the offensive end. Since Marrch 1st he is 17 of 71 or 24%, a lot of those miisses either kept the game close or cost us a game. I would not mind if he was good for 1 of 2, even Shaq does that, plus Shaq looks at teams fouling him as an insult and challenge. Since Woody left Ben's focus on FT's is lacking.

The way I look at it is Ben at the FT line is a lost posession, and one more shot that the other four could have had.

I think it's because it just gives the other team another threat on the floor. When Ben gets the ball in the post, he's a very good passer.

Is it speculation that Ben was upset about is lack of offensive involvement or was he quoted as saying so?

When I first heard about this story I just assumed that he was pissed about lacksidasical defensive effort, not his offensive involvement.

I could see how it could get really old when you are the only one busting your ass on D until the team decides that they better turn it on for the 4th quarter.

I think we've seen a lot of that this year.

Is it speculation that Ben was upset about is lack of offensive involvement or was he quoted as saying so?

When I first heard about this story I just assumed that he was pissed about lacksidasical defensive effort, not his offensive involvement.

I could see how it could get really old when you are the only one busting your ass on D until the team decides that they better turn it on for the 4th quarter.

I think we've seen a lot of that this year.I agree. That's what my post was about really. It's about playing "tougher."

I have no complaints about him calling out guys for their toughness, I am not down with the way he did it or him asking for the ball.

not sure if it was sparked from my comment, but i don't recall Ben ever asking for more of a roll in the offense.

i just thought it as interesting when Ben has a complaint, the next game he's touching the ball on offense more than i've seen him in a long time.

Here's Wobb's article for those that haven't seen it yet.

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060410/SPORTS08/604100363/1127/SPORTS0102


Ben Wallace vents and Pistons listen, and both move on

Rob Parker

April 10, 2006

AUBURN HILLS -- If this is disharmony, can we order some more for the postseason?

With the playoffs just around the corner, this season to remember isn't going down the tubes because of a loss in Orlando when Ben Wallace, the face of this franchise, refused to go into the game in the stretch drive.

If anything, what it showed is that this team is human. Things have run so smoothly around here that you almost think the players are robots.

In reality, everybody can't always be with the program all the time. Disharmony isn't a bad thing, especially if a player can put his teammates on notice and use it as motivation.

Clearly, that's what Wallace got.

Wallace had reason to be frustrated. In his three previous games before Sunday, Wallace hadn't played well offensively, averaging 3.3 points and making just 2 of 9 free throws. He just didn't feel a part of the offense

Wallace, as expected, had a big game against the Indiana Pacers on Sunday. He set season highs in rebounds (22) and offensive rebounds (nine), and he helped the Pistons to embarrass the Pacers, 98-73, at The Palace.

Stirring the pot
"It's good to have a shake-up every now and then," Lindsey Hunter said. "That's life."

While Wallace said he had no reason to apologize, he did acknowledge that he made a mistake.

"I have no regrets," Wallace said. "I put the past behind me. If you have regrets, you don't learn anything. You learn from the past and keep rolling."

Don't look at this just on the surface. It might appear as if this is a conflict between Wallace and coach Flip Saunders. Not true. Wallace's message was to the other four players who arguably make up the best starting five in the NBA.

Recently, Wallace thought things had reverted to when Rick Carlisle coached here. But Larry Brown changed all that when he got here.

For whatever reason, it just hadn't been the case recently and Big Ben let everybody know it wasn't going to continue. And while Wallace didn't score a lot Sunday -- just four points on five shots -- his teammates looked for him early and often with lobs at the basket against the Pacers.

"I told Ben when I talked to him that I have a lot of respect for him and everything he does," said Saunders, who never thought about suspending Wallace.

No folding his tent
Wallace's actions Sunday showed he's not just a man of words. He leads by example.

"These guys in the locker room know what I'm about," Wallace said. "There's no quit in me.

"I've been fighting all my life."

Indeed. That's why you knew there would be no carryover and that Wallace wouldn't continue to go against what he's all about. For sure, Wallace has a short menu: team and winning.

"You knew he was going to come out and play today," Hunter said. "That's Ben. That's our leader. As he goes, we go."

Sometimes, though, teammates need to be reminded of that.

You can reach Rob Parker at rob.parker@detnews.com.

http://detnews.com/graphics/columnistmugs/RobParker.jpg

Parker points out that his offensive numbers have been awful, so I guess it is implied that was part of his problem on Friday. Which is where I have a problem, I am not saying Ben should never want or get the ball but the way he has played on the offensive end he doesn't deserve it.

I feel Ben can question guys on everything and be right in doing so as long as he isn't asking for bigger role offensively., there are four other Starters who deserve more touches first.

So repeating, my point I was not cool with him refusing to comeback, however I fine with his calling out his teammates for any reason not involing Ben's role in the offense. I am not saying that was the purpose of his protest, I am just saying I don't think he has a right to ask for more touches given his numbers following the AS break.

tom kowalski is on stoney and wojo today and he was talking about ben being pissed about being left out of the offense. of course, the killer talking about basketball is skeptical at best, so take that w/ a grain of salt.

Question: Why does Ben have to say he's sorry? I see no reason for him to do that.

Question: Why does Ben have to say he's sorry? I see no reason for him to do that.

i think he owes his teammates an apology, at least. ben's reputation aside, he did quit on the team in the middle of the game. of course, his teammates and coach might not even expect a verbal apology. their relationship might be such that they just know Ben knows he made a mistake.

growing up, my dad was pretty stoic. he usually got his point across without saying a word :)

I think Ben did so already though Matt. That was one of my points in my long winded post earlier.

He said he'd apologize on the court with his actions and he did.

Question: Why does Ben have to say he's sorry? I see no reason for him to do that.

i think he owes his teammates an apology, at least. ben's reputation aside, he did quit on the team in the middle of the game. of course, his teammates and coach might not even expect a verbal apology. their relationship might be such that they just know Ben knows he made a mistake.

growing up, my dad was pretty stoic. he usually got his point across without saying a word :)

Most of his team quit on him every game for 3 quarters. He owes nobody an apology.

I think Ben did so already though Matt. That was one of my points in my long winded post earlier.

He said he'd apologize on the court with his actions and he did.

yeah, i know, mola. i just don't agree to the "why does he have to" part. he did make a mistake and let his teammates down. he chose the wrong time to vent his frustrations. if he's to make apologies by example on the court, his actions of not going in are an example as well.

anyways, bottomline, i don't think we'll see this from Ben again. it's not good for the team to make any bigger deal of the situation. disciplinary actions are usually for the good of the team. let's focus on the playoffs.

if it ever does happen again, the Pistons definitely need to reprimand him.

Most of his team quit on him every game for 3 quarters. He owes nobody an apology.


There was a farmer who had a dog,

and BINGO was his fucking name.

Question: Why does Ben have to say he's sorry? I see no reason for him to do that.

i think he owes his teammates an apology, at least. ben's reputation aside, he did quit on the team in the middle of the game. of course, his teammates and coach might not even expect a verbal apology. their relationship might be such that they just know Ben knows he made a mistake.

growing up, my dad was pretty stoic. he usually got his point across without saying a word :)

Most of his team quit on him every game for 3 quarters. He owes nobody an apology.


My thoughts exactly

And if he did say he was sorry, it came in the form of 22 boards 3 steals and 2 rejections.

I am not saying guys don't take nights off, or qtrs for that matter but c'mon NEARLY EVERY GAME guys quit on Ben?

I think this is geting out of hand, Ben was wrong and justified at being mad at his teammates but let's not throw a team that is going to set a franchise record for wins under the bus.

If guys quit on Ben 3/4 of every game the record would be closer to the Knicks or Pacers than the 88-89 Pistons.

Ben Wallace is the biggest baby in the leauge. He likes to think that this is his team. Flip is the coach you fucking ass. Stfu and do your job.

I am not saying guys don't take night off, or qtrs for that matter but c'mon NEARLY EVERY GAME guys quit on Ben?

I think this is geting out of hand, Ben was wrong and justified at being mad at his teammates but let's not throw a team that is going to set a franchise record for wins under the bus.

If guys quit on Ben 3/4 of every game the record would be closer to the Knicks or Pacers than the 88-89 Pistons.

Out of hand? You called the heart and soul of the Pistons a moron. This team is just a few weeks from the playoffs and believe it or not they haven't locked up HCA. I don't know about you, but I don't want the Pistons playing like they did against the Magic(or the Nets, or Phoenix, or the Bucks) in the playoffs. I doubt they would have, but Ben was making sure that everybody knew it.

If the Pistons played a full 4 qaurters every game it'd be closer to the '96 Bulls.

- They wouldn't lose. Fuck a Bull.

I am not saying guys don't take night off, or qtrs for that matter but c'mon NEARLY EVERY GAME guys quit on Ben?

I think this is geting out of hand, Ben was wrong and justified at being mad at his teammates but let's not throw a team that is going to set a franchise record for wins under the bus.

If guys quit on Ben 3/4 of every game the record would be closer to the Knicks or Pacers than the 88-89 Pistons.

Out of hand? You called the heart and soul of the Pistons a moron. This team is just a few weeks from the playoffs and believe it or not they haven't locked up HCA. I don't know about you, but I don't want the Pistons playing like they did against the Magic(or the Nets, or Phoenix, or the Bucks) in the playoffs. I doubt they would have, but Ben was making sure that everybody knew it.

If the Pistons played a full 4 qaurters every game it'd be closer to the '96 Bulls.


All this shit including my over reaction which I admitted about 18 hours ago is redwing fan BS.I was wrong it calling Ben a moron, but I still think there is a better way of handling your business. Excellent point about the HC thing I wonder how winning Friday would have affected that? Oh yeah they would clinch HC Wed instead of later in the week. Last year was more of a concern than this season. HCA throughout is rarely locked up early so I am not that concerned, but yes it should have been wrapped up by now given the way the team started off. .

I understand the frustration caused by slow starts, it bothers me too but it's not realistic in an 82 game season to get hyped for every second.

I am not saying guys don't take night off, or qtrs for that matter but c'mon NEARLY EVERY GAME guys quit on Ben?

I think this is geting out of hand, Ben was wrong and justified at being mad at his teammates but let's not throw a team that is going to set a franchise record for wins under the bus.

If guys quit on Ben 3/4 of every game the record would be closer to the Knicks or Pacers than the 88-89 Pistons.

Out of hand? You called the heart and soul of the Pistons a moron. This team is just a few weeks from the playoffs and believe it or not they haven't locked up HCA. I don't know about you, but I don't want the Pistons playing like they did against the Magic(or the Nets, or Phoenix, or the Bucks) in the playoffs. I doubt they would have, but Ben was making sure that everybody knew it.

If the Pistons played a full 4 qaurters every game it'd be closer to the '96 Bulls.


All this shit including my over reaction which I admitted about 18 hours ago is redwing fan BS.I was wrong it calling Ben a moron, but I still think there is a better way of handling your business. Excellent point about the HC thing I wonder how winning Friday would have affected that? Oh yeah they would clinch HC Wed instead of later in the week. Last year was more of a concern than this season. HCA throughout is rarely locked up early so I am not that concerned, but yes it should have been wrapped up by now given the way the team started off. .

I understand the frustration caused by slow starts, it bothers me too but it's not realistic in an 82 game season to get hyped for every second.

When Ben went out of the game it didn't look like we were winning it. In fact, they hadn't made a field goal in about 7 minutes. They were playing lazy, uninspired ball just like they did until about midway through the third. If you want to do nothing but settle for long range jumpers(while down by double digits no less), then give the ball to somebody who actually wants to win.

It's also not realistic to expect a player with Ben Wallace's passion to not occasionally do something out of character to prove a point.

And wtf is Redwing fan BS?

Ben Wallace is the biggest baby in the leauge. He likes to think that this is his team. Flip is the coach you fucking ass. Stfu and do your job.

Bens been at the top of the NBA in rebounding every fucking year since he's come here. He's been doing his job. This is his team. He started everything you're watching now. There is a reason he is the only one left from the 1st 50 win team of this turn around. This is not Flips team. Flip is simply just there. The players coach them selfs. This team can without Flip, they cant and wont win with out Ben. Its just that simple.

Ben needs a one-game suspension after we clinch home court throughout the playoffs. It should come from Joe Dumars (who contrary to populist rantings from others within this thread, runs the Pistons). Actually, should we win the next two to clinch it, I want to see one game without Ben, one without Chauncey, and one without Tay.

Ben, if you're mad at your teammates or Flip or whoever, DON'T take it out on the fans who want to see you play. That's the sort of lame-o crap we expect from lesser players, not you. You've certainly proven that you can kick your team's ass into shape without punking out on them in the game -- think Utah.

Flip absolutely did the right in-game thing by sitting Ben when he did, and the proof was in the run the Pistons had afterwards. There's a whole lot of good and some not-as-good things to say about Flip, but what he did in the game was generally the right fucking thing to do. Flip shouldn't need to be pulling coaching miracles out of his ass to win against fucking Orlando!

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Though i'm not gonna say it was worthy of a suspension if Flip doesnt have the balls to request it(9 times out of 10 its left up to the coach whether to suspend a guy in that situation even though the gm does it. Its at the request of the coach). Joe D. isnt gonna jump into the mix on that one. He knows Ben isnt going to be doing that again and to step into the situation himself on no request of the coach would be a really bad move on his part.

I think Ben is only gonna go as far as the coach lets him. To me, Flip lets him do what he wants while not paying attention to his gripes. Unless of course Ben makes a big deal of it. And you can't act as if this was just about the orlando game. Thats by no means what its about in my mind. Its about the past month and a half I feel.
And no on the court Joe Dumars does not lead this team. They are his formula, his group, and he can make the final say on how this team looks. But he doesnt run every aspect. If he did, we wouldnt of had that defensive stretch of futility. Carlos Delfino would probally play ahead of Mo Evans. And flip would look up to the executive suite for permission to run his plays.

When the Pistons are physically on the basketball court, Ben wallace is their leader on defense. Just as Billups is there leader on offense and Flip in the huddle. In the end though, i think that the team as a whole is just too mature to even think twice about this. Suspending Ben Wallace would only drag it on. I think Ben and Flip know where each other stands and wont have dinner together anytime soon. Oh well, but nothing to make a big deal of.

oh yea welcome back Mxy [smilie=angel.gif] [smilie=2thumbsup.g:

As someone who was looking forward to seeing our starters come in at the end, kick ass on D, and lay waste to those Amway assclowns, I was not too pleased. The one thing that made the loss feel a bit better for me was Flip trusting the bench and not burning out the starters. When I found out that was only because Big Baby Ben wasn't going to work when his number was called, I was MOST unhappy.

And as for suspending Ben a game, note my context. I want all the starters to sit out one game each, give the bench some real burn. Rip and Rasheed sat out, now for the other three.

And as for suspending Ben a game, note my context. I want all the starters to sit out one game each, give the bench some real burn. Rip and Rasheed sat out, now for the other three.
yea but suspending wouldnt be the right way to get that. You seem to have Ben pegged as a baby now i see. thats unfortunate. If anything he's got the biggest brass on the team. No one else wanted to point out to Flippity Doo da that our defense was lacking while we were playing subpar for a month. I again say that Flip's assistants should be fired. They are the kissass crew of the year and if they paid more attention to things like defense in their free time, Ben wouldnt have to say anything.. And damn it do like mike woodson did and help him improve his FT shooting and offense in the post. these assistants we got are complete utter garbage.

Either way I dont care how much burn the bench gets anymore. flip doesnt have much of an idea how he wants to use it after this long. he'll never get it. As far as rest? we arent playing the ridiculous minutes we played last year. Thats all i'm worried about. I dont see Flip wearing us out though. I do worry about mo evans whenever he's on the court destroying whatever momentum we build on teams. [smilie=arrgh.jpg]

Ben had a childish moment. It's unlikely to happen again anytime soon. He knows he did wrong, but he has a hard time saying it (which is fine if he plays like he did vs. Indiana). Everyone gets that. Now what do you do about it? No, you don't make a big a deal out of it, but I'd argue you don't want to blow it off either because it sends a bad message to every current and would-be Piston.

Part of me says he got way overpunished for his last childish moment with shoving Artest, and we certainly want him next year, so I should cut him slack. Part of me says "he did wrong, there should be some reaction that resembles consequences", just a slap on the wrist if nothing else. By my reckoning, a one-game suspension after the regular season is decided, for a guy who instantly makes that money back in his next contract, sends the right message, rests a starter who could use a breather and gets our bench play.

I don't think Ben was uppity about Flip as much as his teammates, but Flip got shat on as a consequence. Tell me what he did wrong in that game if you think otherwise.

ummm the message it sends it that you have to bust your ass on the court and be the heart and soul of the team to get a light sentence. Once again all of our other starters are too mature to look at it in a fucked up manner like that. Our younger and bench guys know they wont get away with that. And they value playing time too much to fuck around. especially with darkhead gone. i'd agree about a message needing to be sent via suspension on any player not in our starting 5. honestly this is a police yourself set in the starting lineup. I think Joe D and Flip expects Ben to handle it with no need to "deal" with him. I mean if it were a same set of rules for the starters. Then Sheed would get in trouble for all his techs and flipping out like he did in Portland. Its just not how the pistons handle their starters. I think there has always been a separate set of rules for the starters. And I dont expect it to change. Nor do i think it has to.

But if tony delk pulled that shit he get the yank for a few games. just the way it is.

The people calling Ben a moron and a diva are fuckin morons and divas. Dude has done too much shit for this team for people to judge him based on one article. I'm sure I'd be pissed if the philosophy that won us a championship was vaporized by the new coach. Ben throws hints out in the media, while keeping it unnamed and non-specific. Flip didn't get that message apparently, so Ben said fuck it. Not the best move, but I'm not gonna label him for it either.

Quote me Fekz, don't don't throw it out there like anybody but me said it, If you have a problem with me say don't pussyfoot around it. My point was simple, there is a right time and place to show your anger. I know the game is meaningless in the grand scheme,and he may have been mad at his teammates but you don't do that.

If he is the leader and not Chauncey what message does that send? If you get pist enough you can quit on the team to make them play nice. You would have never seen MJ, Wilt, Bird, Russell or any superstar refuse to comeback in. As I said in my first post, one moment re-defined Scottie Pippen, after he refused to go back in the refusal and Pippen were forever linked. I know that was playoff game, but if we got ths win on Friday we would have clinched HC Wed. Maybe me my word choice was hard, but I am not a fair weather fan. My background in real life just has taught me regardless of adversity you don't quit on your team for a minute, qtr, game or whatever, In the past Ben has called out his teammates in public and that worked why stoop to this level. Sure guys responded but I just he could have done real harm to the way he is precieved.

JS you are a fuckin diva and moron for calling Ben that shit. I didn't read every reply, when I but if anyone else said the same thing then it applies to you as well.

Overreaction is the word I tend to think of when I read your first post. Who gives a fuck about a "defining moment" related to a throwaway (based on the subs flip did) game? Pippen is still a top 50 greatest player, I guess that defining moment didn't define him to thorough eh?

-----------

Is this the end of our championship run? Does Joe D let Ben walk? Does the team start brushing him off? Please man, these cats don't give a shit about Ben refusing to come in that game, especially when flip mutilated the substitutions and matchups.

What Ben did was probably a case of frustration of for one, the team not working hard every night for the W (chucking, ect) and for Flip's lack of feasible defensive strategy, and encouraging players (and staff alike) to reward defense with playing time (hunter, delf) and offense (Ben). We heard about rebellion against zone defense early in the season, and the preference to stay man to man. Maybe that rumble has turned into a roar?

I apologize for calling Ben a moron and for saying he was acting like a diva. I am sorry I am having a bad week, I just lost it I am sorry. You win I am a moron and diva for having an opinion that goes against the grain. I guess it just hit a little to close to home when i saw the thread. I forgot that we are only allowed to think a like. I won't ever come that strong with an opinion.

ummm the message it sends it that you have to bust your ass on the court and be the heart and soul of the team to get a light sentence.
What sentence? Light sentence is fine. Scott free isn't. If his sentence was "you must collect 20+ rebounds against Indiana" -- fuck, putting your nose to the grindstone and kicking ass the next time isn't really penance, but what you strive to do every game!

Yeah, it was a mistake on his part. Mistakes happen. Heroes are human. Yadda yadda yadda. I'm still pissed because when I wanted to see Ben Wallace go out there and shut down those clowns in Orlando. Instead, he sat out because of bullshit. The only bright side was that JMax played.

if thats all you'll get over it(i'm hoping). I think this is one of those moments where you wanna be mad about it for a longer time to get it off your chest. I apologize for trying to ease the moment of needed rage. [smilie=angel.gif] [smilie=anxious.gif]

didnt think it needed its own thread so ill stick this here:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/players/04/11/poll.0411/index.html

considering some reaction ben has gotten in this post i think that sums it up as far as effort on the court and willing yourself to do what you want to do. not saying i totally agree with his decision to not come back in the game, though it was definitely not deserving of all the attention its received.

JS you are a fuckin diva and moron for calling Ben that shit. I didn't read every reply, when I but if anyone else said the same thing then it applies to you as well.

Overreaction is the word I tend to think of when I read your first post. Who gives a fuck about a "defining moment" related to a throwaway (based on the subs flip did) game? Pippen is still a top 50 greatest player, I guess that defining moment didn't define him to thorough eh?
Fekz you've been hanging out with kstat too much. Your people skillz are falling off man. If you disagree with a cat its all good. But personally attacking people like Ben Wallace is your daddy doesnt help you get your point across. [smilie=arnold.gif]

I would agree that some are overreacting. In fact i have said that myself. But they are entitled to if thats what they think. Nothing moronic about that man at all.

Just got here, and read the posts from 1 to here.

Ben is a great player.

Ben owns the paint.

Ben has the best hair in the Association (but Livingston might catch him soon).

Ben WAS a moron for what he did (past tense). Middle of the season, fine. A week from the playoffs? No. If he's got a prob with his touches, it should be handled internally. Interestingly, I'm sure Wallace never considered himself an offensive juggernaut in generating buckets, so his actions, as well as the many inlets the following night, suggest that Ben wanted to score more.

No legitimate reason why, other than his contract is up season's end. But even THAT is not a legit excuse. I can't think of one team who'd pass up on Big Ben's defensive abilities and vacuum-like rebounding. If he ditches, he'll get his $$$ sans scoring knack.

People can be morons for a day. I've played the moron many times in my life, and I still consider myself a decent person. Ben was a fucking moron for what he did -- a fit of real stupidity. But he's not close to a Ron Artest, nor is he close to that one year Pippen couldn't handle being "the man" on a Jordan-less Bulls.

Ben iss still the best at what he does, and still a top notch human being -- just not on that particular night.

Get over it, move on, mow down your opponents, win a championship -- in that order.