After last season, it looked like Tay was ready to step up and be the teams best player on both ends of the floor. And with a new contract in hand along with a new offensive-minded coach, everyone expected him to take the next step forward in his career. But so far his play has not only not warranted that claim but it looks like he might have actually regressed.

He has gone from one of the best perimeter defendes in the game to an average one at best. And his offensive efficiency has dropped cosiderably and his contributions in other areas (rebounding, shot blocking) have been marginal. His post game has been non-existent this season.

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/9328/princestats9yq.jpg

Thoughts?

Players don't just unimprove from one year to the next. That's why I think there's something physically wrong with him.

2004-05 season: http://www.82games.com/04DET10A.HTM

2005-06 season: http://www.82games.com/0506/05DET6A.HTM

Compare those stats from last year and this year @ 82games.com, he is doing worse in nearly every category.

There is one stat out there that could possible explain his dissapointing season but I hope it isn't the case. 5 years $47 million is that stat.

Whats bother me more is how Ben isn't incorporated into the offense to keep other teams honest. Can you imagine Larry Brown coaching with 3 pt plays? This team would be beyond sick. Whats worrying me the most is how our defense just doesn't get the stops anymore. I feel that this is going to kill us in the playoffs when everygame goes down to the last 5 mins.

Flip seems like a nice guy and what-not but I think his loose coaching is going to come back and bite him in the ass.

There is one stat out there that could possible explain his dissapointing season but I hope it isn't the case. 5 years $47 million is that stat.

[smilie=angry.gif] If Tayshaun is pulling that crap Dumars needs to have a little sit-down with him. If he's not injured there should be absolutely NO REASON his rebounding numbers have gone down. I can see the offense regressing a bit as people catch onto him and if he just doesn't fit into Flip's system well, but rebounding and defense is all about effort. And I just don't see it from him right now. It's a shame, he was one of my favorite players.

Whats bother me more is how Ben isn't incorporated into the offense to keep other teams honest.
I totally agree. larry would get dissed for days by fans for calling Ben's number to start the game off and during it. But i thought it was one of his smarter moves. Ben has to be involved in the offense. If he is not its 4 on 5. and with cbill, Rip, and sheed being keyed on along with Tayshan being doubled in the post; Ben should get some serious touches designed to get him points.

With all those plays in Flips book. I'd prefer if he just drew up a couple for Ben.
JMHO

Ben's defensive intensity increases when he gets some offensive looks as well. LB realized this and tforcefed Ben and Rasheed early to keep them active defensively. Also with Ben being a non-entity offensively, he cannot be on the floor at the same time as Arroyo(who isn't a scorer), which is why I think Billups has to play so many minutes.

One thing about Ben, he's got to have some kind of hand or arm injury. His shot attempts aren't coming even CLOSE to the rim. He can still dunk, but man, he looks as worse as he ever has offensively. The last couple years he has has shown flashes of somewhat of a postgame, but this year it's just fugly. I don't know why. Maybe it's a confidence thing?



There has been a lot of knocking of Flip around here tonight and the past two weeks. Here is a post from RealGM about Flip from a T'Wolves fan before we hired him. It is dead on.

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=378756&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

The link explains why Arroyo isn't a fit in Detroit as he isn't a scorer and why Jameer Nelson would be a very good fit.

Here's Jameer's scouting report on draft day:
Strengths: Nelson was widely regarded as the best point guard in college basketball in 2004. He is strong, quick, intense and has a great basketball IQ…Equally strong going left or right, Jameer is excellent at running off screens and hitting the open J or finding the cutter for an open basket. His killer crossover has been well documented and is as good as advertised … He can shoot from anywhere on the court and is a very creative passer. His speed and strength make him a dynamic penetrator and his court awareness allows him to always find an opening or open teammate … An excellent rebounder for his position, making Jameer extremely effective at starting the fast break … Jameer is a determined scoring point guard who should find a strating spot in the League.

Whats bother me more is how Ben isn't incorporated into the offense to keep other teams honest. Can you imagine Larry Brown coaching with 3 pt plays? This team would be beyond sick. Whats worrying me the most is how our defense just doesn't get the stops anymore. I feel that this is going to kill us in the playoffs when everygame goes down to the last 5 mins.

Flip seems like a nice guy and what-not but I think his loose coaching is going to come back and bite him in the ass.


My brother from a diff. mother! I've been saying that all fucking year, but the only response I get is what our record is.

Fuck the record.

It's not just Ben that has trouble intregating into Flip's offense though. Dyess took nearly 2 months to adjust to his system and even now he doesn't look as good as he was last season.

The link explains why Arroyo isn't a fit in Detroit as he isn't a scorer and why Jameer Nelson would be a very good fit.

Here's Jameer's scouting report on draft day:
Strengths: Nelson was widely regarded as the best point guard in college basketball in 2004. He is strong, quick, intense and has a great basketball IQ…Equally strong going left or right, Jameer is excellent at running off screens and hitting the open J or finding the cutter for an open basket. His killer crossover has been well documented and is as good as advertised … He can shoot from anywhere on the court and is a very creative passer. His speed and strength make him a dynamic penetrator and his court awareness allows him to always find an opening or open teammate … An excellent rebounder for his position, making Jameer extremely effective at starting the fast break … Jameer is a determined scoring point guard who should find a strating spot in the League.

Wrong thread maybe?

The link explains why Arroyo isn't a fit in Detroit as he isn't a scorer and why Jameer Nelson would be a very good fit.

Here's Jameer's scouting report on draft day:
Strengths: Nelson was widely regarded as the best point guard in college basketball in 2004. He is strong, quick, intense and has a great basketball IQ…Equally strong going left or right, Jameer is excellent at running off screens and hitting the open J or finding the cutter for an open basket. His killer crossover has been well documented and is as good as advertised … He can shoot from anywhere on the court and is a very creative passer. His speed and strength make him a dynamic penetrator and his court awareness allows him to always find an opening or open teammate … An excellent rebounder for his position, making Jameer extremely effective at starting the fast break … Jameer is a determined scoring point guard who should find a strating spot in the League.

Wrong thread maybe?

Nah, I was responding to Skelly's link sorta deal. I can see how you would confuse the issue though. If Mods want to move this, make sure you include Skelly's link or I'll be made to look the fool.

Whats bother me more is how Ben isn't incorporated into the offense to keep other teams honest.
I totally agree. larry would get dissed for days by fans for calling Ben's number to start the game off and during it. But i thought it was one of his smarter moves. Ben has to be involved in the offense. If he is not its 4 on 5. and with cbill, Rip, and sheed being keyed on along with Tayshan being doubled in the post; Ben should get some serious touches designed to get him points.

With all those plays in Flips book. I'd prefer if he just drew up a couple for Ben.
JMHO

And I totaly agree with you. In fact, i'm willing to bet the only two that dont agree are my brothers.

Listen, last year, every time we came out and ran a play for Big Ben right off the bat, whether he made it or not, the pistons won and he was a beast. This year, I hardly see him get the ball. Big Ben Needs to get a few touches a night to keep the defense honest. If flip is so bright, why cant he relize this? Why why why!

Sorry, I was going to try and not say this, but our record is not a reflection on Flip's coaching. Its been above average at best. Its due to the players having a mindset to get home court. Granted, his offensive system has taken the chains off of Chauncey, and showcases RIP's abilitys. But his rotation....well there is none. He dosnt get Ben the ball, and he's not enough of a prick, IMO. Larry hounded these guys. Maybe a bit too much, but you always knew you were going to get 110% no matter what. Flip is just a nice guy with a big play book. I've felt this way all season, but people dont want to believe you when you're winning.

Dice still looks shaky and Arroyo is a rollercoaster.

I was excited when we beat the Spurs twice. Nice quality wins. The thing that has bothered me throughout the year has been our defense. It seems like we give up 50+ pts by halftime in each game. I look at the score after 1 quarter its 27-25. No teams scored 25 points on us until their was 7 mins left in the 2nd quarter.

The game that really pissed me off was the loss against the Pacers. I could not get over that game to the point where I missed a couple games this week which was luckily a good thing. Forget 70 wins. Forget the #1 record. We need to get our house in order. A trade would be nice for some bench help and it would also be nice if Flip grew a spine and stopped allowing the team to jack up 20 triples a game.

Another thing that pissed me off about Flip is a comment he made once when he was aked why Delfino dosnt get more PT, and he says he forgets about him sometimes.


HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU FORGET ABOUT THE BEST OR 2ND BEST THING YOU HAVE COMING OFF THE BENCH!


Christ.

We seem to live and die by the three pointer. I only hope we can be "feeling it" four out of every seven games come play-off time. The Spurs were a lot like that last year - which is why we blew them out one game and they blew us out one game sorta deal.

Dice still looks shaky

Thank You.

I was starting to think that I might be the only one who thinks Dice isn't as effective this season as he was before.

Hell no.


Dice's % has gone up, but he is no where near as effective as last year. LB knew how to use him.

We seem to live and die by the three pointer. I only hope we can be "feeling it" four out of every seven games come play-off time. The Spurs were a lot like that last year - which is why we blew them out one game and they blew us out one game sorta deal.

Hell no.


Dice's % has gone up, but he is no where near as effective as last year. LB knew how to use him.

The other difference between LB and Flip is the fact that, under Flip our players have become one-dimensional. Rip has become an effective scorer this year but his rebouding and assist numbers have gone down. Same with Sheed and Tay as far as rebounding and assists go. Chauncey seems to be the only exception.

To clarify, I think Flip has done a great job in Detroit. But I'm not satisfied as an internet fan until everything is perfect. I just like pointing out small flaws here and there. And a lot of these flaws have more to do with the player than they do Flip. But all-in-all I'm thrilled with the way Flip has coached this team.

The other difference between LB and Flip is the fact that, under Flip our players have become one-dimensional. Rip has become an effective scorer this year but his rebouding and assist numbers have gone down. Same with Sheed and Tay as far as rebounding and assists go. Chauncey seems to be the only exception.

Flip is using players to their strengths (Tayshaun being the exception).

1. Rip is not a good passer by nature. He got quite a few assists last year, but how many times did you wan't to throw a brick through your TV last year when he got stuck in the air and turned it over? Or when he dribbled off his foot? Keeping the ball in Chauncey's hands, and using Rip as a finisher instead of a creator has drastically cut down our TOs. Look at what happend against Miami. Seemed like every time he had to dribble he turned the ball over (5 TOs).

2. People say Ben is at his defensive best when he is involved in the offense, but how come he had his best defensive seasons under Carlisle, who used him even less in the offense? He's best when he gets a big dunk, but those are almost never set plays. Those are on put-backs, dribble handoffs from Chauncey, or from Rip alley oop passes. They are on-the-fly decisions. I really don't think having Ben post up one on one, and bobble the ball for a TO, or put up an awful brick energizes him. If anything it frustrates him more.

3. While people think Rasheed taking a lot of threes is bad (and there are times when I think it as well). You have to look at the big picture. First, Sheed can hit those shots. Second, Rasheed pulling that big man out of the paint is probably the biggest reason our offense is so efficient. Rip owes Sheed a dinner for some of those bunny layups he's getting in the paint while a shotblocker is out trying to make sure Sheed doesn't spot up for three.

The Rebounding issue is beyond me though. I mean, Delfino, Evans, and Dice are great on the glass, so you can't really use Flip as an excuse for Tay/Sheed. They are just slacking.

Flip is using players to their strengths (Tayshaun being the exception).

1. Rip is not a good passer by nature. He got quite a few assists last year, but how many times did you wan't to throw a brick through your TV last year when he got stuck in the air and turned it over? Or when he dribbled off his foot? Keeping the ball in Chauncey's hands, and using Rip as a finisher instead of a creator has drastically cut down our TOs. Look at what happend against Miami. Seemed like every time he had to dribble he turned the ball over (5 TOs).

True.

But if the other team can take the ball away from Chauncey's hands (like say by putting Bowen on Billups) and force the other guys to make decisions, we are effectively fucked, because as a team we have become more one-dimensional. And using Tay at PG won't be enough to offset it.


2. People say Ben is at his defensive best when he is involved in the offense, but how come he had his best defensive seasons under Carlisle, who used him even less in the offense? He's best when he gets a big dunk, but those are almost never set plays. Those are on put-backs, dribble handoffs from Chauncey, or from Rip alley oop passes. They are on-the-fly decisions. I really don't think having Ben post up one on one, and bobble the ball for a TO, or put up an awful brick energizes him. If anything it frustrates him more.
My problem doesn't stem from the lack of shot attempts for Ben. It has more to do with the fact that he never touches the ball on the offensive end. I am not asking to run scoring plays for him but use him as a passer or as a decoy. Scoring isn't the only way a player can be involved in the offense.


3. While people think Rasheed taking a lot of threes is bad (and there are times when I think it as well). You have to look at the big picture. First, Sheed can hit those shots. Second, Rasheed pulling that big man out of the paint is probably the biggest reason our offense is so efficient. Rip owes Sheed a dinner for some of those bunny layups he's getting in the paint while a shotblocker is out trying to make sure Sheed doesn't spot up for three.
Sheed shooting 3s is great as long as a those shots are falling and we are not over-dependent on them. However, it's an issue when those shots are not falling because we don't seem to be able to recognize when to stop shooting them.


The Rebounding issue is beyond me though. I mean, Delfino, Evans, and Dice are great on the glass, so you can't really use Flip as an excuse for Tay/Sheed. They are just slacking.

While I agree that effort has a role in rebounding, Flip's offense does hurt. Since we are so reliant on the 3point shot, we are usually out of position for the offensive board and on the other end, our wing players are usually leaking out for the outlet pass rather than crash the boards.

True.

But if the other team can take the ball away from Chauncey's hands (like say by putting Bowen on Billups) and force the other guys to make decisions, we are effectively fucked, because as a team we have become more one-dimensional. And using Tay at PG won't be enough to offset it.

Yea, but that exact thing happend last year.... Under Larry Brown. So it's hard to say this is a "Flip problem". It's more of a problem with the personnel.



My problem doesn't stem from the lack of shot attempts for Ben. It has more to do with the fact that he never touches the ball on the offensive end. I am not asking to run scoring plays for him but use him as a passer or as a decoy. Scoring isn't the only way a player can be involved in the offense.

FWIW, Ben is averaging a career high 2.1 apg. His previous best was 1.7apg, under LB. I think the biggest difference in touches this year is that the offense isn't breaking plays as often. So, he doesn't end up with the ball with 5 seconds left on the clock like what happend 2-3 times per game last year.

I would definately like it if Flip came up with a few pet plays that got Ben free for alley-oop lobs out of timeouts though. Seems like he should be able to out-quick and out-jump a lot of Centers in this league in order to run a clever play that frees him up. Doing that once or twice per game (even if they're unsuccessful sometimes) will have a better chance at firing up Ben and the crowd than giving him an iso.



out trying to make sure Sheed doesn't spot up for three.
Sheed shooting 3s is great as long as a those shots are falling and we are not over-dependent on them. However, it's an issue when those shots are not falling because we don't seem to be able to recognize when to stop shooting them.

As every great shooter would say... You don't know if the next shot is going in untill you take it [smilie=lmao.gif]. I agree that there are times when he shouldn't be taking those shots, but I think a big reason most of our shooters are shooting career highs is because Flip has told them to not think twice if they're open. Thinking about your previous attempts is the first step to missing your next.




While I agree that effort has a role in rebounding, Flip's offense does hurt. Since we are so reliant on the 3point shot, we are usually out of position for the offensive board and on the other end, our wing players are usually leaking out for the outlet pass rather than crash the boards.

Yea, it has to be a combo of Flip and the players. I can't explain why Delfino and Evans do so well on the glass though. Does Flip tell those guys to not leak out? Something tells me effort factors in quite a bit though since Flip has said quite few times to the press the "the guards need to do more dirty work". But some of that is on Flip as well. They're a great team, but not perfect. They aren't going to self police themselves in every aspect of the game. I'm not sure how much Flip gets on them about the "little things".

Great going Flip. Excellent decission making




There was one Pistons defender who had some success slowing Wade. Carlos Delfino played Wade for 13 minutes and didn't allow a field goal. Delfino also had five points and five rebounds.



http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060213/SPORTS0102/602130326/1127

Great going Flip. Excellent decission making




There was one Pistons defender who had some success slowing Wade. Carlos Delfino played Wade for 13 minutes and didn't allow a field goal. Delfino also had five points and five rebounds.



http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060213/SPORTS0102/602130326/1127

I'm trying to give Flip the benefit of the doubt here. I don't think anyone predicted that Wade would do what he did in the 4th. Now let's just see if Flip learned his lesson for the next time these teams matchup. If he doesn't fix the problem by then... well, that's a bad sign for the playoffs.

I'm sorry, but I think after a guy hits maybe 3 or 4 straight baskets on you, its time to switch up. Wade had 17 straight points on us. That is unacceptable.

in flip's defense it DOES seem like he's been trusting Delfino more on defense. when Flip matched him up against Pierce and last night with Wade, i was surprised.

i would have liked to have seen Delfino cover Wade and play him physically to at least disrupt one of his 17 points that ripped us. you take away just one or two jumper and we walk away with a win. hell, even foul Wade's ass with a solid hack to throw him off just a little.

I still think Wade would have scored on Delfino at the end, he was just in a zone. However, the difference with using Tay and Delfino on Wade right now is that against Tayshaun, Wade can get what he wants when he wants it. Against Delfino, he has to work for it. That last possesion, Wade got exactly the shot he wanted and there wasn't anything Tayshaun could do about it.

I still think Wade would have scored on Delfino at the end, he was just in a zone. However, the difference with using Tay and Delfino on Wade right now is that against Tayshaun, Wade can get what he wants when he wants it. Against Delfino, he has to work for it. That last possesion, Wade got exactly the shot he wanted and there wasn't anything Tayshaun could do about it.

does anyone else notice that Tayshaun just lacks lateral quickness? i always think that's why he can never take his man off the dribble by changing directions. he usually just drives in one direction. that's always been my biggest gripe w/ Tay's game.

granted, Wade's got a super quick crossover that'll throw off just about 99% of defenders. but, delfino just looked like he had the lateral quickness to keep up with Wade better than Tay could.

To clarify, I think Flip has done a great job in Detroit. But I'm not satisfied as an internet fan until everything is perfect. I just like pointing out small flaws here and there. And a lot of these flaws have more to do with the player than they do Flip. But all-in-all I'm thrilled with the way Flip has coached this team.
i dont think we are pointing out small flaws.

theres an article that really bothered me today.

PISTONS CORNER: Inside game may need a second look

February 13, 2006

BY KRISTA LATHAM

MIAMI -- Every so often, the question comes up.

Are the Pistons relying too much on their outside game?

The usual answer is that the Pistons take what defenses give them and that as long as those shots go in, there's no problem.

But even coach Flip Saunders had to admit the numbers can get scary, as they did Sunday when the Pistons lost, 100-98, to the Miami Heat.

The Heat scored 66 points in the paint to Detroit's 24.

"That's a little too much," Saunders said.

Part of the problem Sunday was Shaquille O'Neal, who makes it hard for anyone to establish an inside game. And part of the problem was Tayshaun Prince, who scored five points on 2-for-12 shooting and couldn't slash inside as usual. It was the second straight game Prince shot 2-for-12.

"They converged a lot on him and took away his slash and his post-ups to the rim," Saunders said.

"That's definitely something that we have to continue to work on and emphasize. The main thing is, that hurt us, but it was our offensive turnovers that hurt us more than anything."-WTF?

Prince said the Pistons turned to two or three plays throughout the game because they continued to produce.

"Yeah, they were jump-shot plays," Prince said, "but they were working. We didn't run too many of our post-up plays because we were making things happen."

Still, the Pistons know there's a fine line between taking what defenses give them, staying true to the rhythms of the offense, and becoming one-dimensional.

"I don't think it's a concern right now," point guard Chauncey Billups said. "But at the same time, we do need to always establish an inside presence and play inside-outside ball.

"The way teams play us, we always have such open looks, it's hard to turn that down. Especially the way Flip coaches," Billups said.

"If you give up an open shot, you mess with the rhythm of the offense. If you have an open one and put it on the ground, most likely those other options won't be open anymore because you gave them time to close back out."

WATCH THE TAPE: The Pistons were mostly calm and cool after their loss to Miami, but center Ben Wallace had only a short statement about how the Pistons squandered a 13-point fourth-quarter lead.

"Was this game on TV?" he said.

Told that it was, he said, "Oh, OK. That's all I got to say. Everybody watched it."
Is it me or do the Pistons seem cocky about their jumpers? As if an inside presence is a secondary after thought. The Flip coaches them to shoot jumpers statement by Billups also worried me a lil'.

Pure. Latham. Gold.

Every so often, the question comes up.

Are the Pistons relying too much on their outside game?

The usual answer is that the Pistons take what defenses give them and that as long as those shots go in, there's no problem.

But even coach Flip Saunders had to admit the numbers can get scary, as they did Sunday when the Pistons lost, 100-98, to the Miami Heat.

The Heat scored 66 points in the paint to Detroit's 24.

"That's a little too much," Saunders said.

Part of the problem Sunday was Shaquille O'Neal, who makes it hard for anyone to establish an inside game. And part of the problem was Tayshaun Prince, who scored five points on 2-for-12 shooting and couldn't slash inside as usual. It was the second straight game Prince shot 2-for-12.

Holy jesus motherfucking christ I think my little sister has a better understanding of the english language than this retard.