it seems there's lots of Carlos defending or people hoping to ship him for every previous backup PG we've ever had. So, given the choice, do you like Carlos Arroyo as our backup PG? Either from what he's shown or what you think he's capable of?

Or do you think he's a bad fit for the team?

Yay.

I could take him or leave him. I kinda like him but he's the one person that doesn't fit into the Piston style. Too much flash and not enough substance for me. Can't move his feet well enough to keep his defender in fron of him. Even though I said all that he's worked well for us. Doesn't matter to me if he's here or not.

I see him more running the point for Atlanta or similar team.

Yay.

A big yay.

Yay
YO
Yao

Yay
YO
Yao
tony yayo?
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0009SCVTG.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

I like him
...
He good at feeding McDyess the ball for open jays
...
But who isnt?

I cant stand his game. He drives me nuts out there.

Nayay

I like his game a lot but sometimes I feel like he's not right for this team. He needs to be somewhere like LA(both) or Phoenix.

i think he does fine in our offense. in fact he's benefited from the system. either way i like his game and feel that he will be an important part of our team for the rest of the year.

Nay

All flash, no substance.

dude ain't efficient.

Arroyo rules. Efficient? Check the stats.

Arroyo rules. Efficient? Check the stats.

what stats?

the assists per 48 minutes?

understand this, the pistons current style inflates the point guard's assists. players breaking up plays to shoot means a shot is much more likely to come after one pass and that pass is going to come from the point.

his assist to turnover ratio is surprisingly good. I'll admit that. I still say he's more flash then efficency though.

Arroyo rules. Efficient? Check the stats.

what stats?

the assists per 48 minutes?

understand this, the pistons current style inflates the point guard's assists. players breaking up plays to shoot means a shot is much more likely to come after one pass and that pass is going to come from the point.

his assist to turnover ratio is surprisingly good. I'll admit that. I still say he's more flash then efficency though.

c'mon koolaid you are just being stubborn now.

you have no real counter on the fact that he's actually been one of the more efficient point guards coming off the bench in the league. you say its the offense, then the same would be said for billups and billups isnt that good i guess. :?

the point is that he's getting assists and not turning the ball over. you are making excuses for his assists? i think the only thing you dont like is that he's an average shooter at best.

honestly i think thats most peoples real complaint and every other reason is just fluff.

Not assists per 48.

I'm talking about when he plays 14 minutes, gets 8 points and 7 assists.

That's fucking great.

Yay.

Bang for the buck.

I never feel comfortable with him. I like to have players instill confidence in me when I see them play and he always does the dumbest stuff when I watch him. He has a horrible shot and should never shoot.


Art

c'mon koolaid you are just being stubborn now.

i am stubborn when i feel right.


you have no real counter on the fact that he's actually been one of the more efficient point guards coming off the bench in the league. you say its the offense, then the same would be said for billups and billups isnt that good i guess. :?

i don't think billups is much better (if any better at all) of a ball distributer then he has been for the past 3 years. he's the best all-around point guard in the league, but he doesn't have the ability to create shots for his team as well as some of other guys out there. .


the point is that he's getting assists and not turning the ball over. you are making excuses for his assists? i think the only thing you dont like is that he's an average shooter at best.

his shot is garbage. his defense is garbage too.

what really pisses me off is his decision making though. I've seen him catch a fastbreak and force up a guarded lay-up for himself (which he typically misses) too many damn times to have any faith in him controlling the flow of the offense.

Good poll, iamme.

I voted yes, but I'm never against upgrading.

If he had to be included in a Darko deal, I'd pat him on the back on his way out.

Big-time nay. The offense stalls in his hands and the second unit is just as efficient, if not more, without him. Case in point- last night with Rip and Tay taking on point responsibilities. I didn't see the drop off when Evans, Mcdyess and Delfino hit the floor like we usually do when Arroyo's in the lineup.

He can't shoot and is easy to defend (force him to take the jumper) and is god awful defensively. He's not even that good at taking guys off the dribble. With him on the floor it makes Evans the perimiter threat which does not play to his strength.

Arroyo is more often bad than good and the team is better without him.

He's lucky there's no one else Flip can substitute at the point otherwise he wouldn't play. I don't like him. He won't play when hunter is ready to go.

Not assists per 48.

I'm talking about when he plays 14 minutes, gets 8 points and 7 assists.

That's fucking great.I agree.

How can anybody refute this shit?

Arroyo goes in, does his thing, and lets Chauncey take it over from there.

And the Pistons dominate all opposition.

Not assists per 48.

I'm talking about when he plays 14 minutes, gets 8 points and 7 assists.

That's fucking great.


And he's done that what 3 times this year. Well woopty friggin do. There are a lot more 3 points 2 assists on sub 30% shooting games then the kind you mentioned. He's a terrible defender and a terrible fit for this system. It makes me sick to say this but we'll be much better off when Lindsey comes back. He sucks at running the offense and has a broken jumper just like Arroyo but at least Hunter kicks ass on D. I'd trade Arroyo for Chucking Shatkins just to get Arroyo off the books.

Arroyo is like Darko in that he'd be better served on a bad team padding his stats. Arroyo is not a consistant backup PG. I would rather have any of the backups that are being shopped around (Watson, Atkins).

Wow. Split poll. And I agree with chriss.

I honestly don't understand the love for Carlos Arroyo? He really brings nothing to the team at all on both ends of the floor. It's kind of like when people were actually upset when Ronald Dupree left the team, another player that had zero NBA-level skills (all he could do was jump).

To me if you can't shoot, can only get to the lane by dribbling behind your back and can't defend quick or physical point guards, exactly what is your purpose?

He'll be riding pine when Hunter comes back which actually plays to his greatest strength as a cheerleader.

I wonder if last nights game could spell an end to Arroyo's time in Detroit without getting a pointguard back in return. With Hunter coming back and capable of playing 10 minutes a game, we could easily use Prince or Delfino there the rest of the time. Even if you want to keep Hunters minutes down to defensive specialiast role and give him seven minutes a game, you have Billups play 35 and give Tay or Delfino the remaining six.

I used to think that we needed a change of pace guard that would offer something totally different than Billups, however with Billups playing so many minutes, there isn't much chance for our players to get used to laying with Arroyo and I think now it would be better just to bring in a similar player to back-up Billups - we just play our style and make the other team beat us.

I honestly don't understand the love for Carlos Arroyo? He really brings nothing to the team at all on both ends of the floor. It's kind of like when people were actually upset when Ronald Dupree left the team, another player that had zero NBA-level skills (all he could do was jump).

To me if you can't shoot, can only get to the lane by dribbling behind your back and can't defend quick or physical point guards, exactly what is your purpose?

He'll be riding pine when Hunter comes back which actually plays to his greatest strength as a cheerleader.

The sad thing is that Jazz fans told us this when we traded for him. I thought he was a steal (mostly from his national team performances), but I was dead wrong. After seeing him first hand, I know what they were talking about. He really doesn't do anything well except bring the ball up the court and make a couple flashy passes once and a while. I'm tempted to say Anthony Mason had more PG skills than him, but that would really be stretching it. Grant Hill might have more PG skills than him though.

Grant Hill had/has more PG skills than the average PG.

Just sayin.

I wonder if last nights game could spell an end to Arroyo's time in Detroit without getting a pointguard back in return. With Hunter coming back and capable of playing 10 minutes a game, we could easily use Prince or Delfino there the rest of the time. Even if you want to keep Hunters minutes down to defensive specialiast role and give him seven minutes a game, you have Billups play 35 and give Tay or Delfino the remaining six.

I used to think that we needed a change of pace guard that would offer something totally different than Billups, however with Billups playing so many minutes, there isn't much chance for our players to get used to laying with Arroyo and I think now it would be better just to bring in a similar player to back-up Billups - we just play our style and make the other team beat us.
wait didnt you say the spurs were flat and that what the game was really about? :D

Grant Hill had/has more PG skills than the average PG.

Just sayin.

Grant hill was a point forward. in his prime he was a top ten "point guard" in the league.

I wonder if last nights game could spell an end to Arroyo's time in Detroit without getting a pointguard back in return. With Hunter coming back and capable of playing 10 minutes a game, we could easily use Prince or Delfino there the rest of the time. Even if you want to keep Hunters minutes down to defensive specialiast role and give him seven minutes a game, you have Billups play 35 and give Tay or Delfino the remaining six.

I used to think that we needed a change of pace guard that would offer something totally different than Billups, however with Billups playing so many minutes, there isn't much chance for our players to get used to laying with Arroyo and I think now it would be better just to bring in a similar player to back-up Billups - we just play our style and make the other team beat us.
wait didnt you say the spurs were flat and that what the game was really about? :D

A flat Spurs team is still better than the majority of other teams in the league. Besides you don't need top notch competition to gauge how Prince and Delfino looked running the point.

I wonder if last nights game could spell an end to Arroyo's time in Detroit without getting a pointguard back in return. With Hunter coming back and capable of playing 10 minutes a game, we could easily use Prince or Delfino there the rest of the time. Even if you want to keep Hunters minutes down to defensive specialiast role and give him seven minutes a game, you have Billups play 35 and give Tay or Delfino the remaining six.

I used to think that we needed a change of pace guard that would offer something totally different than Billups, however with Billups playing so many minutes, there isn't much chance for our players to get used to laying with Arroyo and I think now it would be better just to bring in a similar player to back-up Billups - we just play our style and make the other team beat us.
wait didnt you say the spurs were flat and that what the game was really about? :D

A flat Spurs team is still better than the majority of other teams in the league. Besides you don't need top notch competition to gauge how Prince and Delfino looked running the point.
when did delfino run point? and you do realize that we played extra minutes to compensate the loss of arroyo. in fact playing these minutes with alot of cheap fouls being called on them.

We're better without Carlos. I'm looking forward to Lindsey's return and hopefully we'll dump Arroyo like Utah did last season.

We're better without Carlos. I'm looking forward to Lindsey's return and hopefully we'll dump Arroyo like Utah did last season.

i'm for Arroyo, but i am rather curious how well Lindsey will play in Flip's offense. who knows Lindsey might work out well, remember he was a decent 3PT shooter in his prime. if Lindsey does thrive, i assume Arroyo's PT will go down the drain.

Lindsey will be fine as long as he doesn't play with Ben. If I see a line-up with Ben, Lindsey and Evans I'm going to puke.

interestingly, my biggest problem with Lindsey is the same thing that people rag on Arroyo for: his shoot selection and dribbling the ball until the shot clock winded down.

many times, i remember Lindsey would be handling the ball until there wasn't too much time left on the clock and he's force a bad shot (usually a three). or he'd put a shot, leaving you scratching your head thinking, "why is HE shooting right now??". same gripes with Arroyo.

differences between Lindsey and Arroyo seem to be:

1. Lindsey's a better three point shooter in his career, and might thrive in Flip's offense
2. Lindsey's a better defender, therefore will get more respect from the refs when defending
3. Arroyo's gets more assists, thereby people might deem him the better passer
4. Lindsey's a 12 year veteran, compared to Arroyo's 4 years
5. Arroyo has played in Flip's offense up until now, so he might be more comfortable with it and knowledgeable of it.

once Lindsey gets back to game shape, my guess is Arroyo will start racking up DNP-CD's. Flip will trust Lindsey's experience and at that point, there's really no reason to "save him" for the playoffs since nearly half the season is over.

man, while i say Lindsey might have some sort of offensive rejuvenation, looking at the numbers the outlook isn't so bright:

Lindsey hasn't shot above 40% since the 1999 season when he was in Detroit.

while Arroyo has a career average of 42% FG.

neither stats are too impressive, but i thought i'd just throw them out there :)

Lindsey Hunter really sucks.

Really really sucks.

Offensively yes. Defensively? He's by far our best defensive guard.

Arroyo just flat out eats dick on both ends of the court in this system.

Another thing to consider is that Hunter was just running our offense in a way - LB wanted us to use up all of the clock each possession. So Hunter would dribble around until there was like 8 seconds on the clock, look to find an open man and when he couldn't he'd have to force up an ugly shot to beat the clock. Am I saying he'll be any better under Flip - not really.

However we know what Arroyo is under Flip...

Fuck Arroyo - $4,000,000 was too much to pay Chucky and it's too much to pay Arroyo.

Get him out of here for an expiring contract and a pick ASAP.

We can pick up a cheaper PG in the off-season.

On the floor he has had a few really good games but he's also had a lot of shitty ones.

Fact is if Arroyo didn't go crazy in the Olympics he wouldn't have his current contract and would likely be a third stringer.

Fuck Arroyo - $4,000,000 was too much to pay Chucky and it's too much to pay Arroyo.

Get him out of here for an expiring contract and a pick ASAP.

We can pick up a cheaper PG in the off-season.

On the floor he has had a few really good games but he's also had a lot of shitty ones.

Fact is if Arroyo didn't go crazy in the Olympics he wouldn't have his current contract and would likely be a third stringer.

Bold stuff.

I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, but how much have you seen him play this year?

Saw quite afew games the other day after my buddy downloaded them for me.

Why do you ask?

You can't disagree on the money factor, because I'm right. A ton of people that post here used to whine about Chucky getting $4,000,000 per.

So what's changed with Arroyo? He's a back-up playing 15 minutes IF he's lucky and gets that much.

You can disagree on the package we get back for him and I wouldn't mind, so let's see it.

You can also disagree on my opinion that we could pick up a cheaper PG in the off-season because I could be wrong.

And you can even disagree on my opinion that he would likely be a third stringer if not for the Olympics.

But you can't fucking disagree that he's had shitty games this season.

How many games have you seen?

Arroyo is shooting approx. 40%, with a 3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. He's been shooting better and better as the season progresses, and will probably finish the season at closer to 42%.

In terms of coming off the bench and running a team offensively, the Pistons would be hard pressed to find anyone better.

In terms of coming off the bench and playing defense, he's one of, if not, the worst in the league.

Lindsey Hunter is the opposite - best defending guard in the league off the bench, but can't run an offense.

When Hunter is healthy, Flip will be able to sub offense/defense with Arroyo/Hunter, and we'll always have exactly what we need at any given moment.

Isn't that what we should want?

I agree that he's overpaid, but #1 it ain't my money, and #2, unless we can instantly replace him with someone who can come OFF THE BENCH (i.e. not Tay) know the playbook, and run the offense with a 3/1 assist/turnover ratio, why the fuck would we put a crimp in our championship aspirations just to save a few bucks?

Everyone complained that Tay played too many minutes last year, and its a big reason we didn't win the title. Now you want him to start AND come off the bench as backup pg?

Having Arroyo/Hunter is a luxury, many of you are complaining, and I'm scratching my head and saying WTF?!?!?! at you.

(waiting for someone to post "what Tay said")

I'd rather have a back-up PG that can run the offense and play decent D at the same time.

Is that a crime?

I don't whine about Arroyo all the fucking time so it's not like this is the Darko situation all over again.

We have so few weak links and Arroyo's D is one of them. Naturally people are gonna talk about it.

That results in "Trade Arroyo" talk and we discuss that.

What are we supposed to do? Be all fucking logical and just not post anything?

What are we supposed to do? Be all fucking logical and just not post anything?
Well Actually.
http://thecia.com.au/star-trek/original-series/2/11b800.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~wrathofdiddy/spuncan1.jpg

i find that beard and hair growth highly illogical. damn! :D

And you can even disagree on my opinion that he would likely be a third stringer if not for the Olympics.

But you can't fucking disagree that he's had shitty games this season.

How many games have you seen?

The bold part is where you lost me.

I think he'd be starting more places than he'd be 3rd string.

I just remember you saying that you hadn't seen many games this year and wondered if you were basing your opinion on what you saw last year or this year, since I think he looks much improved over last year.

I've seen all but one game, btw, so simmer down. lol

Glenn,

Watson and now Arroyo. For the record. How many starting caliber PGs do you think are riding the pine in the NBA?


I like him
...
He good at feeding McDyess the ball for open jays
...
But who isnt?

I voted "no" back when this thread was about 3 posts long and I really think this is an underappreciated contribution. How often are 90% of Arroyo's assists a McDyess special? Who the fuck (besides Smush Parker) can't wait for Dyess to establish position then dump it to him for that turn around? As long as the replacement can either drive a bit or shoot a bit so that the pick and roll with Dyess still works we lose nothing in trading away Arroyo.

I think Arroyo could start on a handful of teams and be 3rd string on none.

Does that make it more clear?

I think Arroyo could start on a handful of teams and be 3rd string on none.

Does that make it more clear?

Arroyo would definitely be 3rd/4th string in Denver behind ander miller and Boykins. You can argue for playing ahead of Watson or not.

Arroyo would be 3rd/4th string in Chicago behind Heinrich, Duhon and Gordon.

he'd be 3rd string in Phoenix behind Nash and Barbosa.

3rd string in Dallas behind Terry and Del Harris.

3rd string in Charlotte behind Knight and Felton.

3rd string Golden State behind Baron Davis and Fisher

He'd be 3rd string in Washington behind Arenas and Atkins.

might be 3rd string in Milwaukee behind Ford and Maurice Williams.

And no matter who they have, he'd never get on the court in Utah.



Truth is Pharoah is right. If he didn't kick ass in the olympics he might not even have a place in the league right now.

I'd like to see him moved to Atlanta, Memphis or another team with barely any PG's for a pick...but only if Hunter is ready to go.

Arroyo has hit a brick wall here and his play has sucked ass recently...I see a an attitude issue developing here shortly. Watch for it.

GD, Arroyo has not improved over last year and to the contrary has regressed a ton just in the past month. His backup spot is all but lost when Hunter gets back.

Hunter may play against the Hawks.

Good. Fuck that penis head.

Hunter may play against the Hawks.
Do you have a source or is this from your moles?

his mintues btw have gone down from something like 12 in November, 10 in December, 9 in january, or some numbers similar to that. Saw it in an article today.

And as a result of his sittyness, Billups has had to play injured and log heavy minutes. God, we should have signed Knight.

Tyronn Lue is down for minimum of four weeks. If we were ever going to pull off a trade with Atlanta now would be the time to do it. Trade him for a second rounder and a TE.

If Billups goes down we're screwed reguardless if Arroyo or Hunter has to play big minutes. We should start having Prince practice some point guard - just in case sorta deal.

Tyronn Lue is down for minimum of four weeks. If we were ever going to pull off a trade with Atlanta now would be the time to do it. Trade him for a second rounder and a TE.
I'd be in favor of that. We get to clear his contract, pick up an early 2nd rounder, and have a trade exception to throw around incase of an injury or to bload Darko's contract up in a trade.

Until then I really wouldn't mind to see Acker play. I think it's a mistake to rush Lindsey back from injury. I don't know his status well at all, but getting impatient here could really cost us down the road if he aggravates it. I'll trust our doctors and staff though. And Arroyo has been so bad, unbelievable.

What would Charlotte be looking for in return for Brevin Knight?? WOuld the TE and two second rounders(Atlanta's and Minnesota's) be nearly enough??

[EDIT] Forget about this one. I didn't realize how good Knight has been playing this year. He'd be an IDEAL back-up for us, but I'm not willing to trade Milicic or even Delfino for a 31 yr old back-up point guard. Teams who need a starting guard will be willing to give up a helluva lot more.

i think all you guys who voted yay are silly.

Q . Now that Lindsey Hunter is back, do you think the Pistons will trade Carlos Arroyo?

A . They might eventually trade him, but they aren't shopping him. That's a key distinction. There are teams, like Orlando to name one, that have great interest in Arroyo. But the Pistons don't want to just dump him.

Hunter's return boosts the defense, but the Pistons still believe they need someone who can run the offense when Billups goes to the bench. Obviously, Hunter can do that in short stretches, but the Pistons don't want to leave themselves vulnerable over the long haul.

If the Pistons can move Arroyo (and the two years and $8 million left on his contract) and get perhaps a more-seasoned offensive point guard, they would look to do it. (And don't ask me for any names, because there aren't any being floated about right now.) But the Pistons still like Arroyo and believe there is a need for him here.

So McCoskey says they may eventually trade him but still like him but need an upgrade at the position to a more seasoned player and other teams have interest but can't mention names. I think he covered all bases which pretty much means he said nothing at all. Thanks, Mr. McCoskey, for wasting our time.

Arroyo has done nothing for this team all season and continues to stagnate the offense, take bad shots and get abused by players like Anthony Johnson. He stinks. It's really as simple as that.

I'd still like to see Delfino get mixed into the PG rotation some. Or at least let him handle the ball on offense when Hunter is in for Billups. That way Hunter can play off the ball on offense and just hit open shots. Delfino creates more for his teammates than Arroyo does. If Delfino had some pick and roll experience, he could replace the one thing Arroyo does well too.

Arroyo rules. Efficient? Check the stats.

what stats?

the assists per 48 minutes?

understand this, the pistons current style inflates the point guard's assists. players breaking up plays to shoot means a shot is much more likely to come after one pass and that pass is going to come from the point.

his assist to turnover ratio is surprisingly good. I'll admit that. I still say he's more flash then efficency though.

c'mon koolaid you are just being stubborn now.

you have no real counter on the fact that he's actually been one of the more efficient point guards coming off the bench in the league. you say its the offense, then the same would be said for billups and billups isnt that good i guess. :?

the point is that he's getting assists and not turning the ball over. you are making excuses for his assists? i think the only thing you dont like is that he's an average shooter at best.

honestly i think thats most peoples real complaint and every other reason is just fluff.

Change that to below-average and we're good. Stats can be great, but don't always tell the story. Arroyo dribbles a lot and that can stagnate the offense...when he does that he may not get the ball stolen from him (turnover) but the off balance jumper he gives someone with 3 left on the shot clock is almost as good as a turnover. We watch this all the time, yet when we have a discussion it's about "Well all I know is that Arroyo has a 4 in AST/TO". All I know is he's a on a team with only 7 losses for the season and still working on a negative +/-, even with more minus given with the starters. Thus I vote Nay on liking him, but I also realize it's not likely that we get someone better...oh well.

The fact that they are "rushing back" Lindsay Hunter should tell you all you need to know about their confidence in Carlos Arroyo. They don't think he could play more minutes, so all this talk about him being a starter off the bench is ridiculous because a starter off the bench would be able to handle 18 minutes backing up Billups. Now it looks like Billups will play 30 minutes, Hunder will get 8 minutes and Arroyo will het his ten minutes.

Now if Billups was going to miss a game or two, that would be a different story, but that doesn't look to be the case.

So McCoskey says they may eventually trade him but still like him but need an upgrade at the position to a more seasoned player and other teams have interest but can't mention names. I think he covered all bases which pretty much means he said nothing at all. Thanks, Mr. McCoskey, for wasting our time.
Yeah, McCoskey is clueless in terms of where the Pistons are in trading talks. This is just a guess by him. Remember hours before the Sheed deal he said on the radio that Sheed will never be a Piston.

McCloskey mentioned Orlando as a team with great interest in Arroyo.

Orlando has nothing that they'd be willing to give up that I would be interested in. Maybe they buy out Grant Hill with the understanding that he'll sign here for the vet's minimum for the remainder of this season and the MLE for next season. He'd be a solid back-up for Tayshaun...

I'm sure they are wanting him to backup Nelson, which is who we'd want in the deal.

I watch my pistons games via the league pass and last saturday witnessed the pacers announcers covering the game. They had a "telestrator" segment where they broke down how the pacers absolutely refused to guard Carlos Arroyo when he didn't have the ball. Anthony Johnson would run rampant double-teaming whomever had the ball (Rip especially since he became the playmaker because of Arroyo's uselessness) without ever fearing a repurcussion from Arroyo. Eventually flip had to send arroyo to the corner in order to reduce johnson's ability to double.

Basically that means that Arroyo became more valuable to the pistons when he was as far removed from the play as possible.

I was embarrassed. It was like having Michael Curry on the roster again.

Arroyo can't shoot, he can't create shots other than horrendous looking fade away bricks and he can't defend anyone. He's useless and keeps getting worse. Why is it so obvious to Quinn Buckner that Carlos Arroyo stinks but not people here?

I watch my pistons games via the league pass and last saturday witnessed the pacers announcers covering the game. They had a "telestrator" segment where they broke down how the pacers absolutely refused to guard Carlos Arroyo when he didn't have the ball. Anthony Johnson would run rampant double-teaming whomever had the ball (Rip especially since he became the playmaker because of Arroyo's uselessness) without ever fearing a repurcussion from Arroyo. Eventually flip had to send arroyo to the corner in order to reduce johnson's ability to double.

Basically that means that Arroyo became more valuable to the pistons when he was as far removed from the play as possible.

I was embarrassed. It was like having Michael Curry on the roster again.

Arroyo can't shoot, he can't create shots other than horrendous looking fade away bricks and he can't defend anyone. He's useless and keeps getting worse. Why is it so obvious to Quinn Buckner that Carlos Arroyo stinks but not people here?

Because he has good "per 48" minute stats...

I could shoot over %45 in the NBA and also have a 3:1 A/TO ratio myself as an NBA PG. Unfortunately I would also get my ankles broke every play by other PG's and have no clue how to run an offensive play. Wait, I could be Carlos Arroyo.

OK, that's a big time stretch. I'm just not impressed with his numbers when I see him play. His job is more than the numbers. It's to initiate offense. And he is not doing that.

I watch my pistons games via the league pass and last saturday witnessed the pacers announcers covering the game. They had a "telestrator" segment where they broke down how the pacers absolutely refused to guard Carlos Arroyo when he didn't have the ball. Anthony Johnson would run rampant double-teaming whomever had the ball (Rip especially since he became the playmaker because of Arroyo's uselessness) without ever fearing a repurcussion from Arroyo. Eventually flip had to send arroyo to the corner in order to reduce johnson's ability to double.

Basically that means that Arroyo became more valuable to the pistons when he was as far removed from the play as possible.

I was embarrassed. It was like having Michael Curry on the roster again.

Arroyo can't shoot, he can't create shots other than horrendous looking fade away bricks and he can't defend anyone. He's useless and keeps getting worse. Why is it so obvious to Quinn Buckner that Carlos Arroyo stinks but not people here?

Because he has good "per 48" minute stats...

"per 48" is the most misinterpreted stat there is when it comes to assists. All that really means is that when the player is in the game they often have the ball in their hands much more often that his teammates. It does not necessarily equate to a guy that's efficient with the basketball or is good at setting up teammates. It just means he has the ball A LOT.

Some "per 48" stats can me more telling like Personal Fouls per 48, especially at the point guard position. Most pg's only get fouls by reaching in which means the point guards that tend to foul the most are the ones that try for the most steals or are amongst the league leaders in steals. It means they take more chances. The "normal" point guard averages somewhere in the 2.5-4.0 fouls per 48 range. If they ever exceed 4.0 it means either they like to take chances (and are usually very high on the steals per 48 minutes list ) or they are just bad defensively. Rookies also tend to have higher PF/48 minute ratings

Very rarely do you get point guards with a per 48 PF rate of 5.0 or above. If they have one, it means they usually are consistely getting beat off the dribble and are fouling to make up for their lack of ability in addition to taking chances on steals.

Carlos Arroyo currently has a 6.3 which is atrocious. I would render a guess that it's probably the worst rating out of any starting or regular rotation point guard in the league.

Again, stats can be twisted to support any theory but are interesting nonetheless.

I hope you Arroyo supporters watched his crappy play last night. Taking 5 steps, passing up open jumpers with the shot clock winding down, etc. He had one good pass to Dyess, and that is it. We would have been better off with Delfino backing up Billups last night.

Watching the Orlando magic game right now. You guys notice that the announcers are talking about arroyo like he's handicapped last few games?

for example delfino cut to the basket and was left open under the hoop. Arroyo threw him a no look pass and Delfino got a lay-up. The announcers started yapping about Arroyo being a good player. To me it sounded like the way someone would talk about a kid in wheelchair who tries real hard though.

It's almost like they read what we say, I wish i could understand what they're trying to say though.

If Orlando likes him so much, leave him there and bring back Dooling with us.

I fear we're going to have to make a irrational decision and deal Milicic with Arroyo to improve our back-up situation.

Arroyo, Milicic and Evans to Charlotte for Brevin Knight, Jumaine Jones and a protected first round selection. Even sub in Melvin Ely for the first rounder.

We become -
pg-Billups|Knight|Hunter
sg-Hamilton|Delfino
sf-Prince|Jones
ce-Wallace|Davis|Ely
pf-Wallace|McDyess|Ely

If Orlando likes him so much, leave him there and bring back Dooling with us.

I fear we're going to have to make a irrational decision and deal Milicic with Arroyo to improve our back-up situation.

Arroyo, Milicic and Evans to Charlotte for Brevin Knight, Jumaine Jones and a protected first round selection. Even sub in Melvin Ely for the first rounder.

We become -
pg-Billups|Knight|Hunter
sg-Hamilton|Delfino
sf-Prince|Jones
ce-Wallace|Davis|Ely
pf-Wallace|McDyess|Ely


I wouldn't do that. You'd get better offers i think. Arroyo and Milicic are definitely worth something to a struggling team. Arroyo will get on sportscenter and once in awhile he can explode for a huge game, And Darko is a fan favorite somehow. If i was atlanta/charlotte/toronto i would love to get those guys on my team because they would put some fans in the seats.

Arroyo would be good for attendence in Orlando as well...

Arroyo would be good for attendence in Orlando as well...

Agreed, maybe even more so. Florida has about half a million puerto rican people and Arroyo has a huge Puerto Rican fanbase. They could even move Francis to the 2 and let him run point. You have to think what the pistons would get in return though.

Arroyo would be good for attendence in Orlando as well...

Agreed, maybe even more so. Florida has about half a million puerto rican people and Arroyo has a huge Puerto Rican fanbase. They could even move Francis to the 2 and let him run point. You have to think what the pistons would get in return though.

Probably Keyon Dooling...

Cato, Nelson and a protected first round pick for Darko and Arroyo?

Protection on the pick:

Lotto in 2006
Top 10 in 2007
Top 5 in 2008
Unprotected in 2009

Thoughts, bashings, trashings or whatever?

Arroyo would be good for attendence in Orlando as well...

Agreed, maybe even more so. Florida has about half a million puerto rican people and Arroyo has a huge Puerto Rican fanbase. They could even move Francis to the 2 and let him run point. You have to think what the pistons would get in return though.

Probably Keyon Dooling...

which means no way in hell the pistons would ever want to do that. Keyon Dooling isn't anything i'd want to trade for.

Cato, Nelson and a protected first round pick for Darko and Arroyo?

Protection on the pick:

Lotto in 2006
Top 10 in 2007
Top 5 in 2008
Unprotected in 2009

Thoughts, bashings, trashings or whatever?

Sign me up. Reports this morning are that Orlando has included a first rounder in their trade proposal. Although it only mentions Darko for Cato and the pick.

Cato, Nelson and a protected first round pick for Darko and Arroyo?

Protection on the pick:

Lotto in 2006
Top 10 in 2007
Top 5 in 2008
Unprotected in 2009

Thoughts, bashings, trashings or whatever?

Sign me up. Reports this morning are that Orlando has included a first rounder in their trade proposal. Although it only mentions Darko for Cato and the pick.

If nelson and a pick go to the pistons it's another steal by Joe D.

I'm almost ready to turn to the evil Nay side. For Arroyo's benefit more than ours. Flip just can't coach a point guard whose better at passing than shooting. at the same time i still would never want it to be Atkins. Fuck him.


Otherwise theres really nothing available IMO and i still say ride it out. but im getting closer to being on the fence with this one. More because of just as stubborn as LB Flip more so than Arroyo.

Cato, Nelson and a protected first round pick for Darko and Arroyo?

Protection on the pick:

Lotto in 2006
Top 10 in 2007
Top 5 in 2008
Unprotected in 2009

Thoughts, bashings, trashings or whatever?

Sign me up. Reports this morning are that Orlando has included a first rounder in their trade proposal. Although it only mentions Darko for Cato and the pick.
oh fuck no. Cato's underachieving ass doesnt have anything for Shaq.
Whats the point of having Cato sit on our bench all the same?

Bring up a worthy PG and i'll bite on that. otherwise Joe needs his head checked if he's trading for Theo Ratliff clone. JMO

If only Joe D could wrangle away Jameer Nelson from the Magic...

Gutz: What IYO would be a worthy PG?

Gutz: What IYO would be a worthy PG?
good question.

Though "worthy" isnt the best word to use IMO. but i'd prefer

mike james
leandro barbosa(probally spelled it wrong)
troy hudson maybe....thats a really big maybe though, and i only say it because he was scoring at an enormous rate in Flip's system(especially in the playoffs). but i think i'll pass on him because of his really bad passing.

Jamal tinsley


and thats it for the moment.

the best guy for the position by far is James. Also brevin knight would've been the dumbest pickup on earth for the same reasons i feel arroyo may need to be somewhere else. shooting is a first priority and passing is a second in this fucked up system. but i would rather have a guy who is capable of passing like cbill is in order to keep it afloat w/o chucking the game away.

If Orlando likes him so much, leave him there and bring back Dooling with us.

I fear we're going to have to make a irrational decision and deal Milicic with Arroyo to improve our back-up situation.

Arroyo, Milicic and Evans to Charlotte for Brevin Knight, Jumaine Jones and a protected first round selection. Even sub in Melvin Ely for the first rounder.

We become -
pg-Billups|Knight|Hunter
sg-Hamilton|Delfino
sf-Prince|Jones
ce-Wallace|Davis|Ely
pf-Wallace|McDyess|Ely

I feelin that deal..I think Knight is better than Arroyo albeit neither can shoot, at least Knight won't hold the ball forever. I like Jumaine Jones just as much as I like Evans though we don't really have room for him and Ely gives us a guy with size that is also project-like like Darko except he's actually shown something.

Brevin? no way. bad pickup by far. It doesnt improve shit IMO.

Like i said most of the Arroyo deals are wack. And including darko to get another big guy with less upside to fill his continuous assprint on the bench doesnt make sense to me.

If trades were an option. the first and foremost option would be getting a PG with more significatly shooting ability than arroyo, but still able to pass. not much available in that parameter, so i cant see Joe D biting on any gambles as good as we have been.

Gutz: What IYO would be a worthy PG?
good question.

Though "worthy" isnt the best word to use IMO. but i'd prefer

mike james
leandro barbosa(probally spelled it wrong)
troy hudson maybe....thats a really big maybe though, and i only say it because he was scoring at an enormous rate in Flip's system(especially in the playoffs). but i think i'll pass on him because of his really bad passing.

Jamal tinsley

I hope you are joking Gutz.

Not only would he be a horrible fit on our team, he is a BYC player.

I wouldn't mind Barbosa on our team though.

Gutz: What IYO would be a worthy PG?
good question.

Though "worthy" isnt the best word to use IMO. but i'd prefer

mike james
leandro barbosa(probally spelled it wrong)
troy hudson maybe....thats a really big maybe though, and i only say it because he was scoring at an enormous rate in Flip's system(especially in the playoffs). but i think i'll pass on him because of his really bad passing.

Jamal tinsley

I hope you are joking Gutz.

Not only would he be a horrible fit on our team, he is a BYC player.

I wouldn't mind Barbosa on our team though.
i was waiting for someone to bash him. But i think he'd do well here. he can get his own shot, miami can't stop him(he's scorched the heat every time they've played almost), he can shoot and pass.

i think he fits fine if you get the fact that he's a pacer out of your head. but either way, thats my list and i see nothing wrong with those guys. the unfortunate thing they all have in common, is that they are untouchable for us now. thus i say keep arroyo.

i was waiting for someone to bash him. But i think he'd do well here. he can get his own shot, miami can't stop him(he's scorched the heat every time they've played almost), he can shoot and pass.

i think he fits fine if you get the fact that he's a pacer out of your head. but either way, thats my list and i see nothing wrong with those guys. the unfortunate thing they all have in common, is that they are untouchable for us now. thus i say keep arroyo.

Tinsley is not very good shooter. He is better at penetrating the lane and using his quickness to score rather than shooting jumpers. He is shooting 43% (29% from 3 and 55% from FT line) this season. Arroyo actually has better shooting percentages than him, career-wise. So he is by no means a good shooter.

And secondly, given his injury history why would we want him on our team? He has played 80 games once and that was back in his rookie season. So he is not someone who you could count on to stay healthy.

And with that contract of his, I am not sure if he is even willing to come off our bench. Besides his BYC contract would make it a bitch to put together a trade for him.

Not to mention we would never make a trade with the Pacers.

i was waiting for someone to bash him. But i think he'd do well here. he can get his own shot, miami can't stop him(he's scorched the heat every time they've played almost), he can shoot and pass.

i think he fits fine if you get the fact that he's a pacer out of your head. but either way, thats my list and i see nothing wrong with those guys. the unfortunate thing they all have in common, is that they are untouchable for us now. thus i say keep arroyo.

Tinsley is not very good shooter. He is better at penetrating the lane and using his quickness to score rather than shooting jumpers. He is shooting 43% (29% from 3 and 55% from FT line) this season. Arroyo actually has better shooting percentages than him, career-wise. So he is by no means a good shooter.

And secondly, given his injury history why would we want him on our team? He has played 80 games once and that was back in his rookie season. So he is not someone who you could count on to stay healthy.

And with that contract of his, I am not sure if he is even willing to come off our bench. Besides his BYC contract would make it a bitch to put together a trade for him.
look i agree about everything except him not being a nice pick up. once again i say he can shoot better than what his percentages say. but its a mute point. i just got done saying no one i think would be worth it is touchable at the moment.

just keep arroyo and call it a day.

Brevin? no way. bad pickup by far. It doesnt improve shit IMO.

Like i said most of the Arroyo deals are wack. And including darko to get another big guy with less upside to fill his continuous assprint on the bench doesnt make sense to me.

If trades were an option. the first and foremost option would be getting a PG with more significatly shooting ability than arroyo, but still able to pass. not much available in that parameter, so i cant see Joe D biting on any gambles as good as we have been.

At this point you've got to realize this trade is just Joe saying I fucked up big time and I just want a chance to redeem myself. Maybe with this new top 10 pick, I can find a gem and we'll all forget about how stupid we were to take the Euro guy. None of these deals are going to improve a damn thing, only deal I've seen that would was Al Harrington for Darko...I still wouldnt mind something like that...he's only 26

Arroyo > Nothing.

Gutz:

Mike James? Agree that he'd be a better fit here than Arroyo and I wonder if Joe offered Toronto Darko and Arroyo for James and filler.

I guess I'll never know, so lets' move on.

Barbosa? Until this season he was nothing worth worrying about. Maybe this season is a sign of things to come, maybe it isn't?

Either way I agree he's better than Arroyo and again have to wonder if Joe asked about him.

Hudson and Tinsley? No and Hell No!

Hudson is too fucking old and you even state his passing is shit.

Forget contracts, Tinsley is injury prone and I'd rather avoid trading for guys like that.

So, 2 out of 4.

Since we'll never know if Joe even asked about those 2 you can justify your stance on the subject.

That doesn't mean I have to agree though. I have stated time and time again why I think we'd be better off without Arroyo here both from a team POV and a financial POV.

I'll agree to disagree and you can battle the rest of the guys now.

Hudson is injured, possibly severely.

Always

The main reason for trading Darko and Arroyo is cap space for Ben Wallace. I think Joe wants a point guard with a smaller contract and a good draft pick for them. The Reason Cato is included is just filler.


That's why the magic trade for Cato, Nelson and a pick is about as good as it gets. He cuts down the payroll, gets a quality guard for cheap and gets a good pick. What's not to love?

Gutz:

Mike James? Agree that he'd be a better fit here than Arroyo and I wonder if Joe offered Toronto Darko and Arroyo for James and filler.

I guess I'll never know, so lets' move on.

Barbosa? Until this season he was nothing worth worrying about. Maybe this season is a sign of things to come, maybe it isn't?

Either way I agree he's better than Arroyo and again have to wonder if Joe asked about him.

Hudson and Tinsley? No and Hell No!

Hudson is too fucking old and you even state his passing is shit.

Forget contracts, Tinsley is injury prone and I'd rather avoid trading for guys like that.

So, 2 out of 4.

Since we'll never know if Joe even asked about those 2 you can justify your stance on the subject.

That doesn't mean I have to agree though. I have stated time and time again why I think we'd be better off without Arroyo here both from a team POV and a financial POV.

I'll agree to disagree and you can battle the rest of the guys now.
your perogative, but only guy there that is better than arroyo IMO is James. Once again its about the fit. Barbosa fits like a glove honestly. he can shoot and his passing is much improved.