Dr Tre has been ripping on Michigan football, starting a thread claiming they're not elite. His location says "The definition of Elite" meaning his beloved Michigan State basketball program, but I really think that needs to be questioned.


When the nation is watching, we win. When the nation is watching, Michigan loses.

Here are the facts:

Well Tre, the nation has seen Michigan State lose 3 big games this year. Gonzaga, Illinois and now Wisconsin (again).

Michigan State is 0-2 in the Big Ten.


There is nobody in the country that MSU can't beat.

Wisconsin officially owns Michigan State, and so does Illinois. Wisconsin has beat Michigan State 7 of the last 8 times they've played. And Illinois has beaten them 6 out of 8.

Billy Packer called Michigan State "overrated" on national television (along with 17,000 chanting Badger fans).

The Big Ten website only goes back to the 2001-2002 season and Michigan State has not won a Big Ten regular season or Big Ten tournament title once in that era. I asked Tre in a different thread when was the last time State won a Big Ten title and he did not respond. So who knows when the last time was. Nevertheless, it's been a long time.

Michigan State-Elite? You be the judge.

You beat me too it...I was in the process of getting the stats to start this up...lol

Remember last year against Iowa when they couldn't hit a free throw and choked that big lead?

Man.

Remember last year against Iowa when they couldn't hit a free throw and choked that big lead?

Man.

That was one of the funniest games I have ever seen. I love seeing MSU choke

Excellent post Moodini, those chokester jokesters are the anti-elite.

college basketball = ncaa tournament

why dont you stat fags check what msu has done in the last 7 or 8 tourneys and put that in this thread. then find what UofM has done.

LMFAO

college basketball = ncaa tournament

why dont you stat fags check what msu has done in the last 7 or 8 tourneys and put that in this thread. then find what UofM has done.

LMFAO

College Football = Conference Championships and BCS Bowl Games

college basketball = ncaa tournament

why dont you stat fags check what msu has done in the last 7 or 8 tourneys and put that in this thread. then find what UofM has done.

LMFAO

College Football = Conference Championships and BCS Bowl Games

whats your fucking point? you're talking about basketball in this thread.

but if you want to do that, last time Michigan won a bcs bowl game?

Muhme = troll :lol:

UM and MSU have both won the same amount of NC in the last 10 years.

They both have been very successful in making it to the game they have been trying to reach.

The point is that MSU people want to take shots at UM football program when in all honesty, MSU B-Ball is in about the same shape.

high expectations at beginning of the year, but very little payoff at the end.


Art

You guys are dick fuckers. 2 losses and we suck. CBB if different than CF.

UM and MSU have both won the same amount of NC in the last 10 years.

They both have been very successful in making it to the game they have been trying to reach.

The point is that MSU people want to take shots at UM football program when in all honesty, MSU B-Ball is in about the same shape.

high expectations at beginning of the year, but very little payoff at the end.


Art

last time michigan state has not lived up to expectations?

you cant judge this basketball season because it has just begun. get back to me at the end of march. they'll be there in the final four.

they exceeded expectations last year. they do it many times in the tournament over the last 7 years.

Oh yeah now I remember...expectations at UM are higher ever year than MSU, which is why UM has such a hard time living up to them.

UM is like UK in comparsion, they expect the best every year and hence when they have a 2-3 loss season and UK doesnt reach the final 4...then it is a failed season.

Let me know when State fans expect that, until then MSU is not elite. Just very good.


Art

Oh yeah now I remember...expectations at UM are higher ever year than MSU, which is why UM has such a hard time living up to them.

UM is like UK in comparsion, they expect the best every year and hence when they have a 2-3 loss season and UK doesnt reach the final 4...then it is a failed season.

Let me know when State fans expect that, until then MSU is not elite. Just very good.


Art

the expectations of michigan football are dilusional. every year, all fans think they're great, and they always fall on their faces. this last season is a perfect example of that.

michigan state entered last years tourney a low seed. knocked off tourney favorite duke en route to a great tournament run. the expectation is based on your seed. michgans expectation is based on its preseason ranking.

so, until michigan can live up to, or surpass expectations, they're another purdue.

First off, people who cannot spell are stupid and should stay off message boards. It does not ever help their cause.

I am sorry, 5 is a low seed in the tourney? Since seeds are 1-16, i would say that a 5 seed an above average seeding and the fact that they think they are in the top 20 out of 300 and some odds schools means that MSU was pretty good. 2004-2005 Michigan makes the Rose Bowl BCS game against Texas. Thus I would saying the Big Ten is a pretty good accomplishment.

Hmmm, I wonder who had a better year...neither did, since neither won the whole thing.

I am sorry that State fans cannot get over the fact that UM has so much more love going for it and you try to chop down the program every chance you get.

I have bigger expectations for the upcoming season than I ever did this past season.


Art

UM and MSU have both won the same amount of NC in the last 10 years.

They both have been very successful in making it to the game they have been trying to reach.

The point is that MSU people want to take shots at UM football program when in all honesty, MSU B-Ball is in about the same shape.

high expectations at beginning of the year, but very little payoff at the end.


Art

Co-signed.


First off, people who cannot spell are stupid and should stay off message boards. It does not ever help their cause.

I am sorry, 5 is a low seed in the tourney? Since seeds are 1-16, i would say that a 5 seed an above average seeding and the fact that they think they are in the top 20 out of 300 and some odds schools means that MSU was pretty good. 2004-2005 Michigan makes the Rose Bowl BCS game against Texas. Thus I would saying the Big Ten is a pretty good accomplishment.

Hmmm, I wonder who had a better year...neither did, since neither won the whole thing.

I am sorry that State fans cannot get over the fact that UM has so much more love going for it and you try to chop down the program every chance you get.

I have bigger expectations for the upcoming season than I ever did this past season.


Art

Again Co-signed.

MSU seems to get hot at the right time and make a solid tourney run now and then (but don't win the whole thing), but they lack the "eliteness" and consistency to sustain it over the season. If they don't beat Indiana they're looking at 0-3 and are in Big Trouble.

State has lost in the first round twice in the last 5 years, to Nevada and NC State. Super non-elite.

U-M hasnt won a bowl game since I was in 3rd grade. And has been on probahtion in Bball

probahtion?

Isn't that when in the early 1900's, they made drinking illegal?

:roll:

Muhme = troll :lol:

You come with you're A game.

Crotty, I think you want to use your, not you're. That's one of the easier grammatical rules to master. Here's how you figure it out. You're means you are. Your means your. Hate to be the spelling police, but in a thread where too (as opposed to to or two) many people have lost legitimacy of argument on spelling errors, it has to end somewhere.

probahtion?

Isn't that when in the early 1900's, they made drinking illegal?

hahahaha! :laughing3:

Wow...I saw this thread coming this morning. All I can say is that I wait for MSU basketball season all year and THIS is not what I was waiting for. I'll gladly call it like it is:

Illinois loss = joke

Wisconsin loss = super sick joke

This is bullshit. I sympathize with all the maize and blue out there. This is how you must have felt this season in football. I figured the Hawaii thing was a fluke, but this is fucking garbage. Where did Paul Davis go? What the fuck is up with them NEVER being able to stop a three point barrage from the opposition? It would seriously take me 2 seconds to put together a game plan for playing against MSU: Shoot 3's untill your arms fall off....lather, rinse, repeat.

Now this doesn't mean that I'm not gonna catch all the games...and this certainly doesn't mean that they don't have a chance to turn it around (that's what's so good about the tourney in the first place). I will, however, have no problem voicing my displeasure. Who the fuck are these guys? Big Ten Champs? Well they can forget about that already.

college basketball = ncaa tournament




College Football = Conference Championships and BCS Bowl Games

I agree with both of these. Unfortunately for U of M football, they don't do well in bowl games at all. they have an all time losing record (18-19 I think) in Bowl games. And I am a U of M football fan.

MSU has been choking big time this year. If they make the final 4, none of it will matter. But if they don't make it far, it will be a huge dissapointment (like michigan's football season). In the mean time, I expect U of M fans to rub it in. Just like I expect MSU fans to rub in the football loses for Michigan, even though I think they'll be in a BCS bowl next year.

Crotty, I think you want to use your, not you're. That's one of the easier grammatical rules to master. Here's how you figure it out. You're means you are. Your means your. Hate to be the spelling police, but in a thread where too (as opposed to to or two) many people have lost legitimacy of argument on spelling errors, it has to end somewhere.

I don't need a fucking grammer lesson hard ass. A simple spelling mistake when I'm typing is not a big deal, have I made a comment on spelling? Oh, jeez I fucked up one word. No need to be the fun police here Jethro. Unless someone obviously does not fucking understand how to spell, you don't need to comment on ONE grammer mistake. Find something slightly better to do with your time.

Actually, I think that would be "you're". I learned all that at Yale.

I don't need a fucking grammer lesson hard ass. A simple spelling mistake when I'm typing is not a big deal, have I made a comment on spelling? Oh, jeez I fucked up one word. No need to be the fun police here Jethro. Unless someone obviously does not fucking understand how to spell, you don't need to comment on ONE grammer mistake. Find something slightly better to do with your time.

LOL! grammer lesson. :lol:

Obviously he needs one. :laughing7:

exactly, I spelled GRAMMAR wrong, I'm fucking sorry guys.

Ever since this new site has been up I've seen nothing but douche from posters I used to like.

Calm down, Crotty. Have some more coffee.

I'm pretty sure Jethro was being sarcastic and calling me out by using your, I mean you're post as an example.


LOL!!

I said it because I never know who made a simple mistaker and who is genuinely a dumbass. There are several simple words that are screwed up way too frequently on here and it starts to drive me nuts. I'm not trying to single you out Crotty. Call it wrong place, wrong time. Nice work crying like a baby about it though. I'm sure everyone was very impressed by that. Next time blow me off instead. I know I make multiple mistakes - but usually they're just that, a mistake. Like I said, some people genuinely have no clue what the difference is. To those people I did them a favor. Hopefully someone won't screw up their chance at a job because they jicked the crap out of a sentence or two.

Worst offenses:
To, two, too
There, their, they're
Your, you're
Where, were
Except, accept
For some reason those just drive me crazy. I can handle it for so long, but then one post breaks the camel's back. Like I said, wrong time-wrong place. I'm sure there are others that do it far more often. Anyhow, relax. And by the way, when did douche become the most over-used word on this board? Seriously, it's making a comeback. I was a big word 20 years ago and then people stopped dwelling on it. Now it seems like 1 out of 5 people on WTF can't think of anything else more original. Strange.

OK, that's enough grammar talk. Let's get back to the issue at hand. Michigan State is not elite. And where is Tre? Do you really think he wouldn't have posted once today if State would have won? :scratch:

I was wondering the same thing Mood. He's clearly pissed. Tre's not a guy to quit on his team though. He's collecting his thoughts and he'll be spitting fire by mid-week. I'm not sure how he can come back and make the elite claim still, but that doesn't mean he won't be all over anyone hating on his boys.

On what grounds does he have to stand in order to 'spit fire'?

they have an all time losing record (18-19 I think) in Bowl games. And I am a U of M football fan.

Not too many "elite" programs have all that great records in bowls. Penn State, Tennessee, USC, and Okloma are the only elite programs with dominant records. The other programs are floating around .500:

Ohio State 18-19
LSU 18-18-1
Florida 15-18
UCLA 13-13-1
Texas 22-21-2
Nebraska 22-21
Colorado 12-15
Notre Dame 13-14
Wisconsin 9-8

Yes, 18-19 is the record. You can thank Bo Schembechler for that record. He was 5-12 in bowl games. And, as I've said before, I'll 100% convinced that his influence at Michigan is what continues to haunt the program. As long as he lingers, they will always have a head coach with a grind it out on the ground philosophy.

By the way, not sure how Michigan's bowl record made it into this thread, but I just learned why Tre hasn't been in this thread in a while. First of all, he doesn't have internet at home right now. Second, I just found out he was sick today, so he didn't go into work.

State caught a huge break today. Indiana would have been the favorite for Wednesday's game, looking like possibly 3 straight losses for the Sparty's. But they announced today that DJ White is out for several weeks with a foot injury.

Indiana would've been the favorite playing IN East Lansing?

According to whom?

Common sense and the fact that it is DAMN NEAR IMPOSSIBLE to win games on the road against the top 6 or 7 teams in the conference should be the predominant point of view in understanding matchups in the Big Ten.

MSU would've been the favorite in Wednesday's matchup regardless of DJ's health...and rightly so. The Breslin Center, the Kohl Center and Assembly Hall are the three toughest gyms to play at in the Big Ten and three of the more daunting venues in the entire country.

college basketball = ncaa tournament




College Football = Conference Championships and BCS Bowl Games


MSU has been choking big time this year.

Choking? We have lost 4 games. All but 1 we deserved to win. I dont think that qualifies as choking. The opening to the Big Ten season has been disapointing. It is doubtful that MSU can win the title outright. Normally 3 losses is SOP. We already have 2. As much as I love MSU, im a realist and I dont think this team will go 13-1 to have a chance.

In the end, I was pretty happy with the rankings we had but now I see that we were VASTLY overrated.

I still don't think we were overrated...we just needed to play to our potential. We didn't quite do that. We didn't even come close.

I do, however, still think the Final Four is more than attainable. Anything else would be wildly dissapointing. Besides...who do you really think is gonna want to play us in the tourney? (don't say Illinois).

I really don't think you deserved wins against either Hawaii or Wisconsin. Tre' take on the Illinois didn't sound like you deserved that victory either.

And as for Indiana being the favorite in the game - yeah, the fact that they moved up 7 spots in the rankings while State, losers of two straight, was falling in the rankings - generally says quite a bit about who is favored in a game. Homecourt can offset that a bit, but not enough to overcome the way the Spartans had been playing. Even Spartan apologists on the radio have been trashing on Davis, Ager and Neitzel today. That's not me, it's State fans. I guess it's my turn to reference the media, huh?

Just because overreactive fans calling into a radio station are worried that the sky is falling doesn't make it so. Besides, radio callers aren't usually the most level-headed of fans anyways.

MSU would've been and will continue to be the favorite over Indiana on Wednesday. It would've been around a 5 point line prior to the injury, now it'll be at least 7. The informed understand the pitfalls of playing on the road in the 2nd toughest league in the nation.

college basketball = ncaa tournament




College Football = Conference Championships and BCS Bowl Games


MSU has been choking big time this year.

Choking? We have lost 4 games. All but 1 we deserved to win. I dont think that qualifies as choking. The opening to the Big Ten season has been disapointing. It is doubtful that MSU can win the title outright. Normally 3 losses is SOP. We already have 2. As much as I love MSU, im a realist and I dont think this team will go 13-1 to have a chance.

In the end, I was pretty happy with the rankings we had but now I see that we were VASTLY overrated.

Hawaii was a choke job, even with the cramping problems. Gonzaga was a tossup. I guess that's not a choke job because I considered that a coin flip game that could go either way. They just pulled it out in the end. Suton choked on his layup miss though. The Illinois game wasn't really a choke since you were on the road against a higher ranked team. But the results were dissapointing. They hit everything. Didn't see the Wisconsin game, but although that's a tough place to win, I still expected them to finally win there.

I guess it's more like 1.5 chokes this year. the other 2.5 is just missed opportunities. If you lose to those teams at home, then they will be choke jobs.

Jack, I wasn't referring to callers. That would be retarded. Callers have no credentials whatsoever. The people I heard were hosts and guests that have been called experts at one time or another.

As for the Wisconsin game, might not have been an anticipated win, but come on - that was a blowout.

As for the Wisconsin game, might not have been an anticipated win, but come on - that was a blowout.

They've won something like 36 out of the last 37 games at the Kohl Center. They expected it to be a a -much- closer game, I'll give you that much.

But a loss is a loss. Do you really think the Hawaii game would have felt that much better had they lost by only 6 instead of 22? Notta.

Win all your home games and split the road games...that's the recipe for winning the Big Ten.

I'm going to post once here and leave it at that.

Moodini, the reason I did not respond to your BT Championship question was because it was retarded. MSU won the BT in 01. They also have the most BT Titles of any BT team in the past decade. So keep bringing up BT Championships, that's one thing we've experienced more than anyone.

As far as questioning their Elite status, I only have to say one thing:

4 Final Fours in 7 Years

Name another team to do that. We are not only Elite, another Final Four could solidify us as maybe THE BEST PROGRAM IN THE COUNTRY. Keep posting. You Wolverines sound ridiculous.

See, that's the most retarded thing in the world. Final Fours. La-di-freaking da. One national championship. Seriously, if you can't accept Michigan football as elite, there is no way in frozen over hell that Spartan hoops is elite.

Final Fours. La-di-freaking da.

It figures that a fan of a program that hasn't qualified for the Big Dance in a hundred years would be the one to think that way regarding the Final Four. :D

Outside of winning a National Championship, making it to a Final Four is the most prestigious accomplishment in the sport of college basketball.

Due to the politics of college football...in that sport, there is no comparison.

Thank you Jack. I couldn't have said it better.

See, that's the most retarded thing in the world. Final Fours. La-di-freaking da. One national championship. Seriously, if you can't accept Michigan football as elite, there is no way in frozen over hell that Spartan hoops is elite.

I agree. Both programs are comparable.

Final 4's are comparable to BCS games in the NCAA's. Both have gone to their fare share of those in their respective sports. Yes, U of M has lost many of those bowls, but MSU has also lost many of those final 4 games. Getting there several times and winning it once does make you elite (in both sports) IMO. If that's not elite, what is? USC hadn't been in the national title hunt for a doozen years if I'm not mistaken. Duke didn't make the final 4 last year. if not MSU in bball and U of M in football, than who is elite?

Outside of winning a National Championship, making it to a Final Four is the most prestigious accomplishment in the sport of college basketball.

This was perfect. Every major college basketball coach has goals for their team. They go as follows and are sequenced based on how important/significant they are:

1) National Championship
2) Final Four
3) Conference Championship

Same can be said of the BCS Tre, reason is that no one remembers 3-4 years later outside of who won, who else win the final four or BCS games. I wouldnt even say it was all BCS games just the top 2 or 3.


Art

I know I said I'd post once, but of course I forgot something.

Every single Tom Izzo recruit that he brought to MSU has been to at least 1 Final Four. EVERY SINGLE RECRUIT.

But, I guess a couple of conference road losses erases that right blue?

In regards to the BCS game comparison that Chris made. It's a little off. BCS is sort of the Top 8 teams, not the Top 4. In addition, with conference affiliation with bowls, a team might win a terrible conference, not even be a Top 20 team, yet get the BCS bid. So it's different. There is no football comparison. Different systems.

To get to a Final Four you have to go through the best of the best. ala MSU last year

Well other than the Big East the rest of the schools do play the best in the BCS.

I said 2-3 games out of the BCS because of the Big East.

Michigan played in the Rose Bowl 2 years in a row = to Final 4.

Cant say the same for Carr because the BCS hasnt been around that long, but I will say that since Carr has been coach UM has played in the Rose Bowl or a BCS game every recruit (I think, because 97 Rose, 1999 Orange, 2003 Rose and 2004 Rose, I think that means the same thing) he has had, has been in a BSC game.


Art

And every recruit Lloyd has brought in played in a New Year's Bowl. What's your point? The teams have had the same winning percentage in the last 5 years! The teams have the same number of national championships in the last 10 years! Both have fallen short of their primary goal 9 times in the past 10 years.
Basketball allows you the LUXURY of being able to lose early games and not pay for it. If football allowed that same luxury, Michigan would have far more to brag about. But it doesn't and you know it's bullshit to use a stat that has no comparable stat in the other sport.

You claim that State can beat anyone but acknowledge that they don't beat everyone. How the flying fuck is that any different from what Michigan football does? Oh, they haven't beaten USC or Texas. Well who the hell has? We haven't had 5 shots at each of them like State has. If you were limited to only be able to play top teams once every few years your pile of wins would be crap. But no, in hoops you can schedule anyone you want. If you win, great. If you lose, that's fine to because you get bullshit credit for SOS and you can write it off as preparation. Well I would like to write off Notre Dame losses as prep but I can't now can I? I would like to lose whatever conference games I want and win some tourney so I can call myself conference champ but I can't now can I? And to hear you go off about backing into a conference championship makes me freaking sick. Either acknowledge it as an accomplishment and shut the hell up after that without trying to cheapen it or say it's meaningless so we can call any other championship you want meaningless unless it's the whole thing. We all know how I feel about them, but it's something. And it's about fucking time you give equal credit across both sports - something you cannot look in the mirror and tell yourself you do.

Why do you Michigan fans keep comparing football accomplishments to the Final Four. There is no comparison. New Year's Day Bowl Jethro? Are you freaking kidding me? How many New Year's Day bowl games are there? Does making a New Year's Day Bowl put you among the Top 4 teams in all of Football? What a joke. C'mon dude, you are making yourself sound ridiculous.

Art, 2 Rose Bowls are not equivalent to 2 Final Fours. 2 Rose Bowls are equivalent to 2 Big Ten Titles BECAUSE THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE. You go to the Rose Bowl when you win the Big Ten.

We aren't talking rocket science here gentleman. I don't even think you believe what you are saying. Until college football comes up with a playoff, there is not an equivalent to the Final 4 in football. Once again, not rocket science.

Jethro, could you honestly sit down with a major college basketball coach and tell them with a straight face that Final Fours are not that big of a deal? New Year's Day Bowl...I'm gonna have to remember that one. :lol: :lol: :lol:

While you whine and complain (like a normal UM fan) about the luxury of scheduling in college basketball, you made my next argument.

You said MSU and UM have the same winning percentage over the last five years. I wonder why you cut off the Flintstone years hmmmm. haha Anyways, MSU is known for having the most balls when it comes to scheduling. Therefore, I believe that has something to do with UM having a comparable winning percentage.

I have one question and I'll wait for an answer:

MSU has finished in the AP Top 4, 4 of the last 7 seasons. How many times has UM finished in the Top 4 in the last 7 seasons?

I'm going to post once here and leave it at that.

Moodini, the reason I did not respond to your BT Championship question was because it was retarded. MSU won the BT in 01. They also have the most BT Titles of any BT team in the past decade. So keep bringing up BT Championships, that's one thing we've experienced more than anyone.

As far as questioning their Elite status, I only have to say one thing:

4 Final Fours in 7 Years

Name another team to do that. We are not only Elite, another Final Four could solidify us as maybe THE BEST PROGRAM IN THE COUNTRY. Keep posting. You Wolverines sound ridiculous.

Keep hyping your 4 out of 7. It's getting a little old. During these recent runs, how many championships have you won? 0. So, you make a tight run to the Final Four, BFD, do you think Maverick fans are hyping their "run" to the Western Conference finals? Are Philly fans hyped because they made 3 straight NFC championship games, no they're flat out pissed because they have 0 championships.

And by the way 2001 was a 5 years ago dog. You were a 20 year old cat working at the Parks. That was a LONG time ago.

Keep hyping your 4 out of 7. It's getting a little old. During these recent runs, how many championships have you won? 0. So, you make a tight run to the Final Four, BFD, do you think Maverick fans are hyping their "run" to the Western Conference finals? Are Philly fans hyped because they made 3 straight NFC championship games, no they're flat out pissed because they have 0 championships.

My God you guys are bringing up bad points. There are only 16 teams in the NBA playoffs and they are BEST OF SEVEN SERIES. For that reason alone, upsets are not nearly as prevalent as they are in the NCAA Tournament. The creme generally rises to the top and the format was designed to ensure just that.

Win two series and you're in the Conferenec Finals and for the better teams, the first round is more of a nuissance than any kind of real challenge anyways. So there's one tough ass series in order to get to the conf. finals. Yeah you're absolutely right that it is not as big of a fucking deal as is a 65 team tournament and winning FOUR STRAIGHT win-or-go-home games in order to make a Final Four.

And in the NFL, there are only 12 teams and you only have two rounds prior to the conference finals...and Philly has received a FIRST ROUND BYE each of the past three years. So the Eagles only had to win one game in order to make it to those three straight NFC finals. Like you said...BFD. :roll:

Keep hyping your 4 out of 7. It's getting a little old. During these recent runs, how many championships have you won? 0. So, you make a tight run to the Final Four, BFD, do you think Maverick fans are hyping their "run" to the Western Conference finals? Are Philly fans hyped because they made 3 straight NFC championship games, no they're flat out pissed because they have 0 championships.

And by the way 2001 was a 5 years ago dog. You were a 20 year old cat working at the Parks. That was a LONG time ago.

If you didn't make weak attempts at questioning State's Elite Status, you wouldn't have to hear 4 of 7 so much. Regardless if you acknowledge a Final Four as a Championship or not, it's amazing. And all coaches will take a Final Four over a Conference Championship. So I could care less if you say they haven't won a Championship. I walked into State's Basketball Office and saw the 4 Regional Champions Trophies above all the other hardware, spotlights shining on them and I got chills. Make up all the bullshit ya want, won't take away from the significance for me or anyone else that has experienced one.

By the way, you ever read Detroit Free Press' Drew Sharpe articles last year bashing the seniors for not winning a championship? They got quite a bit of pub. He walked into the locker room after the Kentucky game, Izzo gave him the floor, and he appologized to the players for questioning their ability to win a Championship. Enough said.

Tre, the reason I always use the past 5 years is because that's the time frame you've had your lips around since we ever started this argument. It's your call - pick a time frame and we'll consistantly use it, but don't call me out for using the one YOU established - that shit's weak.

Here's the deal with this. I've posted over and over again the similarities as far as they can be measured. Anything else is apples and oranges. But there is too much evidence to deny this point: either they're both elite or neither is elite. I have no problem admitting State is elite. I argue against it because if you're going to make comments about Michigan not being an elite football program, every single one will bite you in the ass if you turn around and claim State hoops is.

So it's both or neither. Your Location says it all, either Michigan football is elite or anything you ever say can't be trusted on the gorunds of hypocracy.

I'm still waiting for an answer to this question. 3 Michigan posts and not a single person has answered it. I'm going to stay on it until I get an answer. Here it is again:

DrTre11:
I have one question and I'll wait for an answer:

MSU has finished in the AP Top 4, 4 of the last 7 seasons. How many times has UM finished in the Top 4 in the last 7 seasons?

The answer to this question highlights the difference between Michigan Football and Michigan State Basketball. While both have won numerous Big Ten Titles and both have a National Title (well, Michigan has a 1/2), there have been differences in their finishes. Michigan State repeatedly has beaten the nations best and finished in the Top 5. Michigan has not.

I'll wait for an answer once again.

You're comparing voting? You reference the final 4, yet the final polls don't necessarily rank the final 4 teams as the top 4, so your question is very, very flawed.

Let me simplify it for you.

I looked it up. Michigan State finished 4 of the last 7 seasons in the Top 5 of the AP Polls.

How many times has Michigan finished in the Top 5 in the last 7 seasons in football?


Keep ducking the question. I'll keep waiting for an answer.

what teams do you consider elite in football Tre? Why don't you start there? If you consider MSU a top 5 basketball program over the last 5 years (which I would have to agree with), then what are the top 5 football programs over the last 5 years?

USC?
Texas?

then who?

There is no point in continuing the debate until you give those U of M fans a frame of reference for which teams ARE elite. Then you can compare them to the same sport. It's a lot easier to compare MSU to Duke, Kentucky, Uconn, etc in bball...and U of M to USC, Texas, etc in football. It's real hard to compare bball to football. In bball you have 2 tournaments in most cases (conference and NCAA's). In football you have ZERO. I'm not saying one is better or worse...just that it's hard to compare two sports that have totally different methods of deciding the best team(s).

what teams do you consider elite in football Tre? Why don't you start there? If you consider MSU a top 5 basketball program over the last 5 years (which I would have to agree with), then what are the top 5 football programs over the last 5 years?

USC?
Texas?

then who?


Since 2000?

I think it's pretty easy. The top 5 are (in order)...

1) Miami, FL
2) Oklahoma,
3) Texas,
4) USC,
5) Georgia,

The next group after that...LSU, Ohio State, Michigan, and Virginia Tech.

Ok Tre, here's your answer.

Last 7 years? Twice.

Now, let's look at more common time frames, ones that aren't completely skewed to your team: 5 years and 10 years.

Last 5 years top 5 in final ranking:
Michigan: Once
Michigan State: Twice

Last 10 years top 5 in final ranking:
Michigan: Three
Michigan State: Four

So State has the edge. But don't you have to take the good with the bad? How many times in the past 5-10 years have the teams finished OUTSIDE of the top 15-25?

Last 5 years OUT of top 25 in final ranking:
Michigan: Once
Michigan State: Twice

Last 10 years OUT of top 25 in final ranking:
Michigan: Once
Michigan State: Four

Last 5 years OUT of top 15 in final ranking:
Michigan: Once
Michigan State: Three

Last 10 years OUT of top 15 in final ranking:
Michigan: Three
Michigan State: Six

So State has had a little more good and a lot more bad recently. So outside of the 3 year stretch, did you ever establish being elite? The three years after you never cracked the top 15 at the end of the season, so one final four erases all that? Now you're elite again, when you hadn't been for years? You finished 41st in the voting just two years ago, and you never fell from elite status? Yet Michigan finishes out of the top 25 - at 28 - for the first time in a decade and we're not elite?

Ok Tre, here's your answer.

Last 7 years? Twice.


Errrrrrrrrr, incorrect.

Over the last 7 years, according to the AP...UM football has finished in the top FOUR a grand total of:

ZERO times.

The closest they've come was #5 in 1999 and #6 in 2003.

2003 they finished 4th. I'm not sure where our info differs, but the site I went to had them 4th.

I'm still waiting for an answer to this question. 3 Michigan posts and not a single person has answered it. I'm going to stay on it until I get an answer. Here it is again:

DrTre11:
I have one question and I'll wait for an answer:

MSU has finished in the AP Top 4, 4 of the last 7 seasons. How many times has UM finished in the Top 4 in the last 7 seasons?

The answer to this question highlights the difference between Michigan Football and Michigan State Basketball. While both have won numerous Big Ten Titles and both have a National Title (well, Michigan has a 1/2), there have been differences in their finishes. Michigan State repeatedly has beaten the nations best and finished in the Top 5. Michigan has not.

I'll wait for an answer once again.

College basketball's season ends with a tournament, so if you make a run, you get in the top 4. Let me ask you this, if there was no tournament in basketball, and State played one post season "bowl" game, would they have been in the top 4? It would be tough because they haven't won the league in 5 years.

Like Jethro said. It's apples and oranges.

2003 they finished 4th. I'm not sure where our info differs, but the site I went to had them 4th.

http://preseason.stassen.com/final-ap-poll/2003.html

2003 final AP poll

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rank Team (FPV) Record Points Previous

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Southern Cal (48 ) 12-1 1,608 1
2 Louisiana State (17) 13-1 1,576 2
3 Oklahoma 12-2 1,476 3
4 Ohio State 11-2 1,411 7
5 Miami-Florida 11-2 1,329 10
6 Michigan 10-3 1,281 4
7 Georgia 11-3 1,255 11
8 Iowa 10-3 1,107 13
9 Washington State 10-3 1,060 15
10 Miami-Ohio 13-1 932 14

what teams do you consider elite in football Tre? Why don't you start there? If you consider MSU a top 5 basketball program over the last 5 years (which I would have to agree with), then what are the top 5 football programs over the last 5 years?

USC?
Texas?

then who?


Since 2000?

I think it's pretty easy. The top 5 are (in order)...

1) Miami, FL
2) Oklahoma,
3) Texas,
4) USC,
5) Georgia,

The next group after that...LSU, Ohio State, Michigan, and Virginia Tech.

I like how you edited your post 4 times. Couldn't figure out who should be "elite" the first time around?


Elite teams come in cycles. Back in the 1930's, St. Mary's of Northern California was a football powerhouse, so was Fordham. In the 40's, Army dominated. Minnessota also had some formidable teams in the 40's and 50's, as did OU. Nebraska blew chunks until the 1970's, and try to find Florida State on the football map until Bowden arrived.

In terms of program history (in no order):

USC
ND
Texas
OSU
Michigan
OU
Florida
Alabama
LSU


I define "elite" by program excellence over decades, not years.

ESPN.com had it in their final poll listing for 2003 as 4. Their records must be bad. Fine, let 58 votes out of well over a thousand be the strength of your argument.

LOL@using an isignificant poll for an argument

I define "elite" by program excellence over decades, not years.

I completely agree with Denny's post, to me, eliteness is defined by longevity. Not recent "spurts". When looked at that way, it's unquestioned that Michigan football is elite and I think MSU basketball still has some work to do. Sure, Magic won his title, but they pretty much disappeared until Izzo showed up. If they win the B10 title and make an "ELITE" 8 or Final Four run this year, then I'll give some dap and call them elite. Until that happens or doesn't, I'm done with this crap. (Unless Tre provokes me, and I'm sure he will, so I'll probably be back. :wink: )

BTW, Denny, that is singlehandedly the most amazing av of all time! :notworthy:

Agreed.

Denny needs to make me a sweet av.

Jethro34 wrote:
Ok Tre, here's your answer.

Last 7 years? Twice.



Errrrrrrrrr, incorrect.

Over the last 7 years, according to the AP...UM football has finished in the top FOUR a grand total of:

ZERO times.

The closest they've come was #5 in 1999 and #6 in 2003.


Thank you for posting this because he was indeed wrong. In the last 7 years, Michigan State has finished in the Top 4, 4 freaking times. Michigan has not finished in the Top 4 once.

In response to the post before. You can talk Elite in terms of history. I already stated that Michigan is Elite when it comes to ALL TIME. But, over the last few seasons they've been sliding. Lloyd Carr recognized this himself when he said he was unhappy about falling from the ranks of the Elite. That's all I'm saying.

Ok Tre, you asked a question and called for an answer. Now it's your turn to stop ignoring it.

Question 1: Yes, over the past 7 years you were top 5 (not 4 - based on last year) 4 times. What about the past 4 years? 3 of the past 4 years you finihsed ranked 35th, 18th and 41st (some of that is final USA Today since I couldn't find final AP). Were you just so elite for 3 years that you get a free pass those other 3? Because recently you've only been top 5 once. So can a program be elite enough to get a free pass for several years? Or are we supposed to say you're elite again after only one year? Is that all it takes? Ok, so that was several questions but you need to address it.

Question 2: How are you going to continue to supposedly quote Lloyd Carr about falling from the ranks of elite when I gave a detailed report on how there is no quote from him and the newspaper writer you referenced never said elite when giving his OPINION. Rosenburg clearly has never had strong opinions before and always speaks for Carr and anyone else. Will you continue to put words in Lloyd Carr's mouth simply because he changed around some coaches?

If they win the B10 title and make an "ELITE" 8 or Final Four run this year, then I'll give some dap and call them elite. Until that happens or doesn't, I'm done with this crap:

:laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5:

I guess it's just how you look at it Jethro. Before last year, there was a down year. If you claimed they weren't elite yet, I wouldn't have argued. Two years ago they made the Elite 8 though. Not sure where those rankings came into play. I basically viewed last year like Izzo did. He never would admit that they were elite until the run last year. Once they made their 5th Elite 8 in 7 years and their 4th Final Four, it solidified them.

Moodini31 wrote:
If they win the B10 title and make an "ELITE" 8 or Final Four run this year, then I'll give some dap and call them elite. Until that happens or doesn't, I'm done with this crap:

Moodini says this every year. He'll hate on the Spartans and question them after tough losses. Then he'll say, "They need to do this, this, and this...then I'll give props."

Last year it was hilarious. First he said they had to make the Sweet 16, then he'd give dap. They did it. Then he said, "Let's wait and see how they do against a real team, Duke." They beat them. Then he said, "Let's wait and see if they can win the big one." They beat Kentucky. Now he's back questioning and saying the same thing.

They've made the Elite 8 5 of the last 7 seasons, 4 Final Fours in 7 years, WHEN THE HELL DO WE FINALLY GET THE DAP MOODINI!? haha :wink:

Jethro, I forgot to respond to your Lloyd question.

Did you see that issue of the Free Press?

It was the headline of the sports section. Maybe it wasn't a direct quote. But, if the Detroit Free Press aka Michigan Wolverine Fan Newspaper says it, that's shocking. :shock:

Moodini says this every year. He'll hate on the Spartans and question them after tough losses. Then he'll say, "They need to do this, this, and this...then I'll give props. Last year it was hilarious. First he said they had to make the Sweet 16, then he'd give dap. They did it. Then he said, "Let's wait and see how they do against a real team, Duke." They beat them. Then he said, "Let's wait and see if they can win the big one." They beat Kentucky. Now he's back questioning and saying the same thing.

:laughing3: Never said that.

Tre, are you seriously going to quote a headline from a newspaper to put words in LLLLloyd Carr's mouth?? Do you really think LLLLoyd Carr would say "Yup, we've definitely fallen from the ranks of the elite"

HAHAHAHA! :laughing6: :bs: :laughing8: RIDICULOUS!

Jethro, I forgot to respond to your Lloyd question.

Did you see that issue of the Free Press?

It was the headline of the sports section. Maybe it wasn't a direct quote. But, if the Detroit Free Press aka Michigan Wolverine Fan Newspaper says it, that's shocking. :shock:

Yes, I quoted it in the other thread, you know, the one about Michigan that you started? The article was all about Michigan coaching changes. In fact, THAT was the headline. The Carr comment was Michael Rosenberg's opinion and it was a subline under the true headline, and it was fall from grace, not elite status. You've been quoting Carr on seomthing neither he or anyone else ever said. Nice grounds for your argument. I think someone can fall from grace over the course of a season. You don't fall from elite status in one season or else State hasn't been there in 4 years - except for one good season, which doesn't make you elite.

We were at our St. Charles game and Brandon mentioned the article to me. It was pulled out and the sub heading under the headlines read something to the effect of, "Michigan head coach upset about fall from the ranks of the elite." I am 100% sure the word "elite" was in it because I cracked up laughing when he showed it to me. My bad if I assumed Carr said that after reading the subheading. It might not show that online, but it was in the newspaper.


DrTre11 wrote:

Moodini says this every year. He'll hate on the Spartans and question them after tough losses. Then he'll say, "They need to do this, this, and this...then I'll give props. Last year it was hilarious. First he said they had to make the Sweet 16, then he'd give dap. They did it. Then he said, "Let's wait and see how they do against a real team, Duke." They beat them. Then he said, "Let's wait and see if they can win the big one." They beat Kentucky. Now he's back questioning and saying the same thing.

Moodini:
Never said that.

Moodini, you absolutely said every word of that on our cbs site last year. You posted each of those things on the site, I wish I had printed them. I specifically remember you hating on their first two wins because they weren't against big names, then you said let's see how they do against a real team. I'm not going to make it up for no reason. When it comes to remembering things said, you know I've got it on lock. "Dreamy memory" remember? That's another quote from you referring to my ability to quote you years later.

And this is coming from the guy who apparantly remembers "loving Brady" his senior year.

If were talking names and stats homie, you've got me. If were talking quotes from the past, it's all me.

I was told Lloyd said it from a Michigan fan. Then I checked it out myself when you said it wasn't a direct quote.


And clearly you always believe everything you hear second-hand from Michigan fans. If that's the case, here's some second hand heresay from a Michigan fan. They're very bit as elite as State basketball. Whew, thank goodness we can put that all to bed now.

Actually, I'm 100% convinced that you know it's true but you maintain the argument just because we all enjoy the conflict so much. In that case, good work.

Actually, I'm 100% convinced that you know it's true but you maintain the argument just because we all enjoy the conflict so much. In that case, good work.

Don't put words in my mouth. Michigan is an overrated team year after year that can't win the big one. That's what I believe and that's what the media sees. Its dillusional fans don't want to accept the fact that they owned by teams like Ohio State and Notre Dame. Its dillusional fans don't want to accept the fact that their team can't hang with the best.

And it's dillusional fans who they their team was able to be elite after one final four when the previous three years they finished 41st, 18th and 35th.
And how do you define "hang with the best"? When was the last time Michigan lost a game against anyone by more than 1 score? The Notre Dame game was the most lopsided game at 7 points. Anyone that watched the game - I was with you - knew it was closer than that. You go out and lose by 19 points to Wisconsin and you're hanging with the best?

And by the way, here is an online link to the Carr "elite" story. Read it over and over again so you can be familiar.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060106/SPORTS06/601060398/1054

Congrats on losing close games.

ONCE AGAIN, THE ARTICLE YOU ARE READING ONLINE DOES NOT HAVE THE SAME HEADING AS THE ONE THAT WAS IN THE NEWSPAPER.

visit a library and check it out. I saw it with my own eyes.

I think this was supposed to be about State being Elite so I'll try to get back on track.


DrTre11 wrote:
When the nation is watching, we win. When the nation is watching, Michigan loses.

Moodini:
Here are the facts:

Well Tre, the nation has seen Michigan State lose 3 big games this year. Gonzaga, Illinois and now Wisconsin (again).

Well, I believe last night was win #3 over a Top 10 opponent. You were saying? :king:

I posted this in your earth shattering "That's 3 Baby" thread, but I thought I'd post it again.

I anticipated this post as soon as I heard State won last night. Here is my response.

The 3 "Top 10" teams you've beaten are Arizona, who some publications are calling one of the biggest dissapointments early on this season, Boston College, who is now 0-3 in the ACC, and Indiana who lost their second best player.


Ho hum, I'm not impressed.

Beat Illinois (for once) then we'll talk.

^To be fair, only Duke has beaten more ranked opponants than MSU (I'm not positive that is true, but I checked the top 10). In fact, none of them even have 3 wins against ranked teams.

Congrats on losing close games.

ONCE AGAIN, THE ARTICLE YOU ARE READING ONLINE DOES NOT HAVE THE SAME HEADING AS THE ONE THAT WAS IN THE NEWSPAPER.

visit a library and check it out. I saw it with my own eyes.

Oh jick-a-lick boy. Get ready everyone, cuz this post is hot.

Tre, you will NEVER live this down baby boy.

This will be my last post for a little bit, so I gotta call you out in it (check your PMs).

So here's Tre fumbling around looking for a way out and says online and print are different, citing he saw it and remembered specifically elite in the headline.
Well folks, baby boy Tre is imagining things.

Yep, just like you all knew I would, I stopped by the library on my way to school. Oh, I found the article. Hell yes I found the article. Not only that, but I made a photocopy of the article. Now do you think I would do that if it said elite? Hell no. But guess what, it doesn't say elite. Yeah, I'll be making copies of the article for Tre and Mood and I'll mail it to anyone else that wants to memorialize Tre putting his foot clear into his mouth with BOLD letters. Hollywood couldn't write this any better. You got served. So what's your line? I win, game over!?

Ding ding ding on a ten count son.

:lol: HAHAHAHA! Sweet Jethro, I'll look forward to it.

Jethro, you said I'm fumbling. But, I'm being completely honest dog. I'll check it out. I saw the article with my own two eyes. Brandon Hayes, my Dad, and I all read that line and I told the story to them about how we've been arguing about "elite" status. I'm confused. Maybe two different articles were written on separate days. I don't know. I'm tellin' ya. I saw it very clearly. Is there more than one Detroit paper? I don't know. :?: :?: :?:

Seriously though dog. Break time from trash talk. I truly did see that in the newspaper. And if I made a mistake, than it wasn't intentional. I know enough about this site. You can't post something untrue because everybody is going to check on it. I feel like Harrison Ford in The Fugitive. Somebody believe me damn it! haha

Moodini, is it possible that you are never impressed? Like Chris said, Duke is the only team to beat more ranked teams.

You aren't impressed by anything. 3 Top 10 wins? Nope. 4 Final Fours? Nope. 5 Elite 8's? Nope.

Yet this is coming from the same guy who went off hyping an NIT Championship after it happened on CBS. Or did you not do that either?


ps- How did Michigan do against Indiana? Was that the 7th in a row for the Hoosiers on your boys or 8th?

Jethro, you said I'm fumbling. But, I'm being completely honest dog. I'll check it out. I saw the article with my own two eyes. Brandon Hayes, my Dad, and I all read that line and I told the story to them about how we've been arguing about "elite" status. I'm confused. Maybe two different articles were written on separate days. I don't know. I'm tellin' ya. I saw it very clearly. Is there more than one Detroit paper? I don't know. :?: :?: :?:

Seriously though dog. Break time from trash talk. I truly did see that in the newspaper. And if I made a mistake, than it wasn't intentional. I know enough about this site. You can't post something untrue because everybody is going to check on it. I feel like Harrison Ford in The Fugitive. Somebody believe me damn it! haha

Did you really ask if there are two Detroit papers? It's going from bad to worse kid. Yes, there is the Free Press and the Detroit News. I'm a step ahead of you. Already checked both just to be sure. Nothin. You wanted it so bad that your mind is playing tricks on you. This argument will end up driving you to the shrink man. So here's the scoop for everyone else potentially wondering what I'm talking about with my last post for a while line. I'll only be on here Tuesday and Thursday afternoons and Thursday evening as well.

Jethro, you said I'm fumbling. But, I'm being completely honest dog. I'll check it out. I saw the article with my own two eyes. Brandon Hayes, my Dad, and I all read that line and I told the story to them about how we've been arguing about "elite" status. I'm confused. Maybe two different articles were written on separate days. I don't know. I'm tellin' ya. I saw it very clearly. Is there more than one Detroit paper? I don't know. :?: :?: :?:

Seriously though dog. Break time from trash talk. I truly did see that in the newspaper. And if I made a mistake, than it wasn't intentional. I know enough about this site. You can't post something untrue because everybody is going to check on it. I feel like Harrison Ford in The Fugitive. Somebody believe me damn it! haha

Did you really ask if there are two Detroit papers? It's going from bad to worse kid. Yes, there is the Free Press and the Detroit News. I'm a step ahead of you. Already checked both just to be sure. Nothin. You wanted it so bad that your mind is playing tricks on you. This argument will end up driving you to the shrink man. So here's the scoop for everyone else potentially wondering what I'm talking about with my last post for a while line. I'll only be on here Tuesday and Thursday afternoons and Thursday evening as well.

Yeah Tre, that's pretty sad that you're just finding out there are 2 Detroit newspapers. :P

And, there's a big difference between playing without your second best player (Abram) at Indiana who had a full squad and playing with your full roster at home vs. an Indiana team who was without their second best player (D.J. White).

And yes I did hype an NIT Championship as a stepping stone for the program. Last year turned into a joke because we missed 90 player games due to injuries. If we make the NCAA's this year, I will still hype the NIT as tight.

And yes, I can be impressed.

DrTre11:
Is there more than one Detroit paper? I don't know.

Sorry, I realize this didn't sound right and a little retarded. I meant, is there more than one Detroit paper that could have run the same story, different headlines. We get The Detroit News and The Detroit Free Press at my house. I'm aware of them. relax

And, there's a big difference between playing without your second best player (Abram) at Indiana who had a full squad and playing with your full roster at home vs. an Indiana team who was without their second best player (D.J. White).

:crybaby: Michigan fans doing their thing.


And yes I did hype an NIT Championship as a stepping stone for the program. Last year turned into a joke because we missed 90 player games due to injuries. If we make the NCAA's this year, I will still hype the NIT as tight.

And yes, I can be impressed.

Moodini, hypes a NIT one day and hates on Final Fours the next. LOL! Are you serious?! This is getting really bad.

Tre you really are looking like a tool with the whining comment about when Michigan played Indiana and when MSU played Indiana.

Lets see what happens when UM plays IU at home with no DJ White and then we can compare, but to compare a home win without their 2nd best player to a close road loss with him, is pretty ridiculous and makes you look like an ass.


Art

I just think it's funny that UM fans always have some excuse. They wouldn't accept the fact that our 4 best players were out against Hawaii. But, they want freaking Abram out as an excuse.

By the way, I guarantee Indiana beats UM at UM. I think they've won like 8 straight against Michigan.

Hey Jethro,
If I did make a mistake on the newspaper-my bad. It's not that big of a deal. I can admit if I'm wrong. But, what did the article look like that you copied? Were there pics? This is seriously bugging me so bad, I totally saw it with my own two eyes. If I'm wrong, I need to get checked out haha.

Who are your top 4 players? Ager, umm he played 36 minutes. Davis is he one of the top 4 players? He played ummm 20 minutes.

Trannon is the only player who didnt play in Hawaii that played in the latest MSU win against IU. Is he that valuable that you cant beat an 8-5 Hawaii team at this point?

I think you lost against Hawaii because you shot under 40% from the field, not because you were missing Trannon.

Yes, I do know about the cramping, we have been hearing this whining for months now.

Art

Once again Art, you don't know what you are talking about.

Davis- 20 minutes? Is that the type of minutes Davis plays? Not even close and the minutes he played he was hampered.

Ager played, but said he felt terrible after about 2 minutes.

Shannon Brown- Did you forget him? He's twice the player Abram is. He was taken off on the stretcher.

Neitzel- Did ya forget him too? He left the game for good in the second half.

The minutes that these guys spent on the court were minutes spent at less than 100%. Obviously when you have 4 starters leave for THE GAME, something is wrong.

Get a clue. Even your Wolverine bud Jethro admitted this should be thrown out. But, you are making my point. We had 4 guys out and you aren't accepting it as an excuse. So don't use Abram as one then.

I didnt use Abram as an excuse.

I said the fact that UM played at IU with White on their team is harder than playing IU at home without White.

Umm btw lets look at your numbers and reason again. Brown played 26 minutes and was 4-11 in the game and Drew played 30 minutes and went 3-7. So I would say they played the majority of a 40 minute game and Davis played half the game, btw he played only 29 against IU.

BTW Alger show 5-15. The only player who shot the ball anywhere near good was Davis, so go ahead and use him as an excuse if you need to. I am sure he would have made the difference in losing by 22 points.

Once again it was shooting under 40% that cost you the game, not because of injuries, as I have already shown the only player who missed any time was Davis, but yet even with him shooting well in the first half you guys were still down by 9 points.

If MSU had lost by less than 10, I can see you making a case about Davis injury hurting, but you lost by 22 points.

Keep plugging away as to why you lost to a clearly inferior UH team....it is very enjoyable.

As for Jethro....good for him that he has a different opinion about this than me...we are not the same person, so I would hope we would.

IU beat Michigan at home because Michigan shot shitty in the 1st half, not because Abram was not there.

Again we can compare things when IU comes to AA to play UM without white, that will at least give us some basis of things. Plus was MSU totally healthy for IU? Close enough I would say....hopefully UM will be healthy so some UM fans done have to come up with excuses.


Art

First of all, this is pointless talking about a Hawaii game that does not matter. I was just trying to make a point about excuses. But, let me clarify a few things.

Basketball is all about the chemistry in your units and rotations. Every coach looks to establish rotations early in the year. If a guy goes out with cramps just for 5 minutes of a game, it completely ruins your rotation and it throws everything out of whack. Example: Brown goes out with cramps, all of a sudden you are entering Walton into a lineup he doesn't play with, he's all of a sudden got to do double duty because he normally runs the 2nd unit at pg, now he's getting exhausted, Ager has to come in with a different unit to spell Neitzel earlier because Walton normally spells him, now Ager is with a different unit and he's doing double duty. This is the result of 1 guy going out. Now, multiply that by 4. This is a domino effect that most wouldn't understand until they have to deal with it themselves from the sideline. It causes absolute chaos. And it extends further than what I just posted. I just cut it off. I could write an essay on the significance of keeping your rotation within a game, but I'll just leave it at that.

On top of that, Art have you ever had cramping problems within a basketball game? You might go back on the court, but you aren't the same. All 4 of State's players that cramped up were dehydrated and experiencing a lot of pain when they were on the court.

So go ahead and post Ager's minutes, doesn't mean a damn thing. Actually it does, it shows that a guy with cramps had to play way more than he was capable of. But, like I said, I could care less about that game. It doesn't mean a thing. MSU is on the brink of the Top 10 again and they are coming off their 3rd Top 10 victory. In the run for the Big Ten Title, a Final Four, and National Championship I don't really care about the first game of the season in Hawaii.

Your right this is about you given excuses why MSU lost to Hawaii, but anyone given an excuse about their team is called a whiner.




Art

Sig Check...

Your right this is about you given excuses why MSU lost to Hawaii, but anyone given an excuse about their team is called a whiner.

Art

I know this board isn't an academic institution and I've never been one to act like a grammarian...but Art, that was a potpourri of God-awful grammar.

Yeah I know, but since he is an MSU fan, I have to do that so he can read it.


Art

Yeah I know, but since he is an MSU fan, I have to do that so he can read it.


Art

You do realize that the average Michigan fan is dumber than the average MSU fan. UoM grads might have a slight advantage over MSU grads, but that would only be slight.

UoM is considered generally 10-15th best, MSU 20-40. Out of 400+ colleges that isn't a big difference. So you can get of your high horse about that.

Especially when I doubt you're either a doctor or a lawyer(the 2 most prestigious parts of UoM).

Back to the main topic: If MSU is anything other than 'elite' in basketball, I would like to hear what programs are. I consider elite to be a top 5 to top 10 program over the past 5 to 10 years. Michigan probably is still one in football, but needs a BCS bowl, and a competitive showing in it within the next 2 years to me.

Duke and Kentucky are the elite of college basketball.

Why are UM fans dumber than MSU fans? I guess you have hard proof of this?

I can prove that MSU fans are dumber on this board than UM fans...Steve is a MSU fan.


Art

Duke and Kentucky are the elite of college basketball.

Why are UM fans dumber than MSU fans? I guess you have hard proof of this?

Art

Yeah Kentucky's great. D'you watch their game against a 10-5 Kansas team. :lol:

Tucky's elite, but they are FAR from it this year.

And detroitsportscity said that because the average UM fan lives in a trailor and wears his hair like this...

http://bohotesticlez.freewebspace.com/images/mullet.jpg

Duke and Kentucky are the elite of college basketball.

Why are UM fans dumber than MSU fans? I guess you have hard proof of this?

I can prove that MSU fans are dumber on this board than UM fans...Steve is a MSU fan.


Art

Over the past 5 and probably 10(too lazy to check) years MSU has more wins, tourney wins, final 4's, and any other important statistic then UK.

Duke has performed worse in the tourney than MSU over the past 5 to 10 years too.

And if there is only one 'elite' team is it really an insult to be the #2 best team over a period of time?

UoM has dumber fans overall due to trailer parks everywhere adopting UoM as their own.

Championships baby. Who has more of the last 10 years than those 2?



Art

Championships baby. Who has more of the last 10 years than those 2?



Art

UConn.

Duke has 1(the same as MSU).

And UK has 2 in '96 and '98. Almost out of that timeframe.

Last 15 years, Duke 3 with 3 runner up finshes, Kentucky has 2 with 1 runner up, MSU has 1 with no runner ups.

Did I mention the other part of the equation was longevity of being good. Sorry but MSU fails at that.

So you take recent success plus overall success of the programs and MSU pales in comparsion with the true elites of college basketball.

I love UM, but at this moment and time, they are not elite except on past accomplishments. They need another championship or 2 over the next 10 years to be considered truly an elite team.


Art

Sig Check...

Polish, that sig is the frickin' funniest thing in WTF history! :laughing5: :laughing3: :laughing6:

Last 15 years, Duke 3 with 3 runner up finshes, Kentucky has 2 with 1 runner up, MSU has 1 with no runner ups.

Did I mention the other part of the equation was longevity of being good. Sorry but MSU fails at that.

So you take recent success plus overall success of the programs and MSU pales in comparsion with the true elites of college basketball.

I love UM, but at this moment and time, they are not elite except on past accomplishments. They need another championship or 2 over the next 10 years to be considered truly an elite team.


Art

Over the past 10 years MSU leads the nation in final 4's. How is that anything other than 'elite'?

MSU also has multiple titles in their history, which only 10 or 11 teams have.

Elite is top 5 to top 10, the tier 1 in the nation, not the single best team of the past 20 years., or in your case 2. How does UConn not make your list also? 2 titles.

Michigan has I think 6 BCS bowls in the past 10 years, which makes them elite, IMO, I disagree about their deservingness sometimes(MSU Citrus Bowl after defeating UoM), but they have proven over time to be among the premier programs in the nation. The prestige off the '97 split title is wearing off though, and a top 3 showing in the next 2 years should be needed soon to keep that.

I guess just different standards for being elite.



Art

I guess just different standards for being elite.



Art

I'll agree with that, but you seem to have a 1 to 2 team group, of 'elite' teams, and exclude 2 other teams with near identical credentials. I think that a 2 team group is going to far, and your exclusion of MSU and UConn confuses me.

My 'Elite' Teams:
Duke
MSU
UK
UConn
Borderline 'Elite'(need to step up to retain spot):
'Zona
Kansas
Legacy Elite Teams:
Indy
UCLA
UNC

Making a group of 6 to 9, a pretty select group either way.

The problem is you decided 10 years was a good time frame to have for elite teams now, why not 5 years or 20 years?

To me it is current and past and MSU needs another 10-15 years of what they have been doing to be truly elite.


Art

Well, you Michigan fans can argue all you want. But, MSU is one of the most Elite teams in the nation over the last 10 years.

You want to go history of college basketball?

ESPN listed Michigan State in its Top 10 College Basketball Programs of All-Time. I believe #8.

Looks like the rest of the country sees it our way. :wav:

ESPN the same place that had USC as the greatest team of all time before they played Texas?

Ok then I guess Vanderbilt coach calling UM elite makes our team elite too.

Gald we could figure out what the basis of being elite is....ESPN and some coach.


Art

The problem is you decided 10 years was a good time frame to have for elite teams now, why not 5 years or 20 years?

To me it is current and past and MSU needs another 10-15 years of what they have been doing to be truly elite.


Art

In the last 5 years MSU would still belong. 20 then maybe.

But past ten years is a large sample, without digging up ancient history, and a logical number of years (5, 10, 15, 20, etc.)

Art, your argument is without merit. I look at MSU as being one of the elite teams over the past 5 years, 10 years, and in NCAA history. Just let it go man...stop wasting your breath. With that said, it doesn't mean I like State at all, it's just that maize and blue hasn't blinded me from reality.

Props Polish.