This topic was started somehow in the Michigan/Nebraska thread so I thought I would give it its own thread.

Just to lay the ground work. For the last year, I've been making the claim that while Michigan is an Elite football program historically, they are not currently among the the Elite programs currently.

This has brought people like Jethro, Moodini, Art into an uproar. Even though the media, fans, and alums are saying the same thing I am. These maize and blue faithful do not want to admit it. So let the argument continue.

Let me see if I can finish this argument:
Well, well, well....according to some of the Wolvies here on WTF Michigan is still Elite and they are just as Elite as MSU Basketball. Doesn't matter that they've got James Brown, Jim Rome, and The College Gameday Crew arguing against them. They don't want to believe it. Well, maybe they'll believe it when their own coach is admitting it.

Detroit Free Press. January 6, 2006/
Headlines: "Michigan Head Coach Upset about the Fall from the Ranks of the Elite"

You guys have argued with me, the media, and the alums. Do you now want to argue with your own head coach. GAME OVER, THANK YOU. :lol:

I think they were elite up untill this year, 2 straight rose bowls is not shit.

What do you call elite?

Name me one program that has been as consistent as Michigan over the last 20 years, 30 years, 50 years.

Every program in the top 20 has had a losing record since Michigan has last had one.

Is USC elite? If so that means elite is only a 5 year plan, because prior to Carroll, they were pretty horrible with losing records and crap.

Again, it all depends on your definition of elite.


Art

So one bad year makes a team not elite? So very few teams are really "elite".


Art

This is getting tired. Who gets to start the State NOT elite thread?

we havent been elite since before I was born.


(at least in football)

Agreed Steve, Rose Bowls are not shit at all. I'd love to see one.

At the same time, if you back door your way in when given the chance to clinch against OSU, not as tight.

And when you lose both, not as tight.

My definition of Elite is being able to maintain the top rankings you've been given at the start of the season. having one of the best records in the game, winning against the best.

Apparantly Lloyd Carr, University of Michigan Alums, and the Media all have the same definition as I do.

Well they are not elite now, I mean if Penn St. covered better in the endzone, UM might have been seeing the motor city bowl(I still think they would have gone 7-5, because I dont think Akron could have beaten them)

I'm talking about basketball dumbass. The argument has been made ad nausseum how the two in their respective sports have freakishly similar stats among those that matter.

I love the way Tre makes his point, and then the final sentance is, WHAM, BAM FUCK YOU! I WIN!

Just to lay the ground work. For the last year, I've been making the claim that while Michigan is an Elite football program historically, they are not currently among the the Elite programs currently.

Well Michigan just got a commitment from the #1 CB in the country in 5 star Jai Eugene. You've got to be pretty elite to get a commit like that all the way from the state of Louisiana.

http://vmedia.rivals.com/IMAGES/PROSPECT/PHOTO/JAIEUGENEMD1_4C200.JPG
#1 CB and 5 star stunna Jai Eugene is a Wolverine. :headbang:

Define "elite".

I remember the day when K State would schedule 3 or 4 shit teams on their schedule to hold their high ranking. How about FSU and the (up until recently) weak assed ACC, or Miami several years back and the shithole known as the Big East?

I say, consisstently put out 9 wins or more a season in a real conference, and you are fucking elite.

God these threads are ludicrous. We had 1 fucking bad year, and acts like 100 years of history mean nothing.

The previous two seasons we were 19-5. Had it not been for losses to the two teams that won national championships the following seasons, we would have been 21-3. I think a team can get somewhat of a pass on losing a game to the #1 team without catching too much crap for it.

Let's get real. Is it embarrassing that Michigan has struggled recently against Notre Dame and Ohio State? Absolutely. Is Texas elite even though this is the first time in 10,000 years they beat Oklahoma? Is Notre Dame elite even though State owns them? Is Ohio State elite even though they have their struggles? Admit it, all the ACC and SEC teams have their demons. Oklahoma was probably elite, but they probably fell too if one bad season allows it. I'm guessing they'll be back next year. But even they have their demons - it's called the championship game. Oh, and Oklahoma State too. USC had a Cal demon for a while.

Can someone please give me a definition of elite that applies across the board and then list off the teams that fit that description in the two major college sports? Don't go with some vague answer either - it has to be quantitative for it to be anything more than opinion, since that's all we've been given so far. "ESPN said so" isn't quantitative. You've blaimed the media for hyping some of these teams in the first place. You can't then turn around and take their statements as fact.

By the way - one last thing. You need to be a lot more responsible when you start throwing around lines and calling them Lloyd Carr's words. First of all, you claimed the headline was regarding the fall from the ranks of elite. You have to know I'm going to check things like that out. The REAL line is "U-M coach steamed about fall from glory". That was a cut and past I just did direct from the Free Press. And it's not even the headline, it's a by-line to a story about Carr shuffling the assistant coaches. I can see how that would still fit your description if there was one essential element, however, that is missing. Did you happen to read the article? Did you see the Carr quote where he said that? No, you didn't, because there was none. That's right. It was Rosenberg's interpretation of the Carr move. Of course Carr is shuffling assistants. That's what coaches do after disappointing seasons. It's how they stay elite. You know what I find intersting? When I sat and watched Corso and Herbstreit give their lists of the top 5 for next season and I heard Ohio State in there both times, I was amazed to later hear every other member of the media talk about how Michigan would win the Big Ten next year. I heard it most recently yesterday from the crew doing the All-American game. Tom Lemming, who camps out on Ted Ginn's nuts, was certain Michigan would win the Big Ten next year. Now Lemming is a recruiting expert, not an expert at picking winners in college. I'm just saying he's been the latest in a long line of people continuing to give Michigan credit as the best team in arguably the best conference. That smells a lot like elite to me. Everyone who has talked about the disappointing years Michigan, Oklahoma, Tennessee and others have had this season has quickly turned around and said they expect them to rebound strong next season. Why? Because that's what those programs do. Because they are elite.

JethrOWNED!!!! :twisted:

Loss to Illinios...
Blown out by Wisconsin...

Wasnt someone saying MSU wins their big games??

HAHA.

At least they recruit well. :)


Art

HAHA.

At least they recruit well. :)


Art

I dont really think they recruit well...I just think that Izzo is a god of coaching and gets EVERYTHING out of his players.

They recruit pretty well too. BTW one of the things that was told Lucas to get him to sign with MSU is that MSU is a pipeline to the NBA.



Art

Yeah...I got word to today that some of the coaches around the metro Detroit area feel that Lucas will be the best PG since Magic at MSU...

Being a Michigan fan, that is great to hear... :roll:

I want to make love to Jethro.

HAHA.

At least they recruit well. :)


Art

I dont really think they recruit well...I just think that Izzo is a god of coaching and gets EVERYTHING out of his players.

They don't recruit well??? According to whom?

2000- #4 class in the nation

2001- #7 class

2002- #6 class

2003- #3 class

2004- #15 class

2005- #17 class

2006- ~#9 class

2007- lock for top 10, possible top 5

So over an eight year period, Michigan State will have been out of the top 10 only TWICE...and that by your definition is not recruiting very well? Talk about high standards. I guess in your world only Duke and North Carolina "recruit well". :roll:

Loss to Illinios...
Blown out by Wisconsin...

Wasnt someone saying MSU wins their big games??

I wish one FCKING UM fan could read. I clearly stated 8,000 times that MSU doesn't win all of their big games. But, they win a lot of them. And there is a difference between a conference game against Wisconsin and playing for the Final 4 against Kentucky.

Mark my words, MSU has several more huge wins in them. I always have the last laugh when it comes to MSU basketball. Just ask Moodini WAAAAAAAIT ON IT

HAHA.

At least they recruit well. :)


Art


MSU's academics are cruddy, so anyone could get in there.

MSU's academics are cruddy, so anyone could get in there.

Yeah, I wish we had the brilliant minds of Daniel Horton, Bernard Robinson, and Marlin Jackson in our athletic programs.

MSU's academics are cruddy, so anyone could get in there.

Yeah, I wish we had the brilliant minds of Daniel Horton, Bernard Robinson, and Marlin Jackson in our athletic programs.

Tre, I can't believe you forgot to include the UM brainchild (aka Air Georgia, aka Air Ineligible) that used his genius to create this piece of "auditory brilliance"...

:lol:

We play in Crisler Arena, where the hoopers at
The post men, the high flyers
And the three-point shooters at.
NIT 2004, other teams pursuing that
Dunkin on these lame cats
(A.G., why you doin’ that?)
’Cuz that’s my job, 2-for-1.
I catch the lob,
the lob I catch
make you say whoa like Black Rob.
But it ain’t ova yet cuz who handle the rock?
D. Horton, plain and simple, yeah he get off his shots.
But who call the shots, T.A.,
coach Ram, coach Moore, coach Swen.
Slam Jam thank you ma’am!
Next up, nyce man game high 28,
My first 28 field goals
(How many were dunks?) 28
Then L.A., Mr. consistency,
Sherrod Harrell, Graham Brown Tri-captaincy
And why we play so hard
Why we run when Plock say run.
It ain’t the name on the back
It’s the name on the front.

The NIT was just for starters,
Naw ... we ain’t finished yet.
Courtney Sims keeps blockin’ shots,
I’m flyin through the air like lear jets.
Then in comes Big Game Hunter,
Known as the Big Game Hunter,
Shoot three-pointers like his name’s Lindsay Hunter.
Switch the subject, in comes J.C. Mathis,
He’s complaining ‘cuz Amadou keeps hackin’.
Keeps smackin’, he keeps foulin’,
meanwhile Ashtyn Bell still wildin’.
Dani, John and R.C., too,
Blue team combo like R2 D2.
Michigan State and Illinois, too,
Georgia Tech, yeah, they’ll all get ran through.
All get done too, Maize Rage, Blue Crew,
Cheer for who, who, dribble, dribble, shoot, shoot.
Basketball this year and football this year,
We all goin’ for the championship.

Right, because rap always consists of wonderful use of the English language.

Right, because rap always consists of wonderful use of the English language.

No Jethro, it's the apparent fact that Air Georgia was too busy writing his rap lyrics (which are lyrically genius I might add) instead of writing his term papers thus facilitating his academic ineligibility.

He'd still be eligible at MSU, plus on the Honor Roll.

Did I read that line correctly?

"NIT 2004, other teams pursuing that"


LOL LOL LOL LOL :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
On the floor laughing!

They recruit pretty well too. BTW one of the things that was told Lucas to get him to sign with MSU is that MSU is a pipeline to the NBA.



Art

Pipeline to the NBA huh? How are Mateen, Charlie Bell, and Chris Hill doing?


I just think that Izzo is a god of coaching and gets EVERYTHING out of his players.

Don't get me wrong, Izzo is a great coach, but what was he doing vs. Illinois? The cat was like chilling out on the sideline not saying anything. What about Wiscy too?

Pipeline to the NBA huh? How are Mateen, Charlie Bell, and Chris Hill doing?


Sources say they're in a jacuzzi jacking off Marcus Taylor.

And Andre Hutson.

And people scream about how Amaker doesn't make any players better. I'm pretty sure Graham Brown is 5 times the player he was at freaking Mio. Meanwhile, how many State 4 and 5 star guys never did squat in the pipeline?
Again, to be fair, the same conversation is going on in the NFL forum about Wolverine football players (see Avant thread). I'm telling you, the two programs are identical in far too many ways to dismiss.

Pipeline to the NBA huh? How are Mateen, Charlie Bell, and Chris Hill doing??

Of the other programs (and coaches) that Lucas was considering, who have done a better job of moving kids on to the NBA than MSU and Izzo? Mateen, Bell, Richardson, Peterson, Randolph, Ager, Brown, Davis. I'd say TI has done a pretty amazing job of both preparing kids for the league AND showing them collegiate success.

When was the last time MSU had an All-Pro pro player? Magic Johnson back in the 80s. Steve Smith? That was back in the early-mid nineties

When was the last time U of M had one? Amani Toomer, Tom Brady, Charles Woodson, and Ty Law come to mind. Not to mention our great linebackers and offensive linemen.

I'm tired of people saying U of M players mostly bust. It's bullshit.

YOU GUYS DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO START TOM BRADY!

He was passed over for the biggest bust since Ryan Leaf....none other that the "hype machine" himself Drew Hensen.

I'll agree that you guys turn over many quality players, but you can never take credit for Tom Brady. As a matter of fact there should be a Tom Brady rule.

If I was Tom Brady I would love to waltz into Lloyd Carr's office and punch him right in the throat...with all of my rings on.

YOU GUYS DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO START TOM BRADY!

He was passed over for the biggest bust since Ryan Leaf....none other that the "hype machine" himself Drew Hensen.

I'll agree that you guys turn over many quality players, but you can never take credit for Tom Brady. As a matter of fact there should be a Tom Brady rule.

If I was Tom Brady I would love to waltz into Lloyd Carr's office and punch him right in the throat...with all of my rings on.

Keep in mind that he was a 6th round pick. Call out every NFL team 6 times for every one time you call out Michigan.

And Henson was pretty much considered a lock for the #1 pick had he stayed at Michigan. Really tough to blame the UM coaches for that.

Jethro you have reached an all time low. Did you seriously question Izzo's ability to get his players better?

You've got to be fucking kidding me! If you think Tommy Amaker does a better job of improving his players than Izzo than you know nothing about the game of basketball. There is not a single player on Michigan's roster that is improved from their freshman season. Horton, Harris, Ab, Sims, Petway....same if not worse than they were as freshmen. It's an absolute joke.

How about Paul Davis (20 pts, 10 rebs), Mo Ager (Big Ten Scoring Leader), and Shannon Brown (19 pts.)? Save the how have the played lately comment. These guys are twice the players they were as freshman. And Izzo does this with everybody that comes through his program.

Not everyone has the upside to play in the NBA, but Tom Izzo makes them the best players they possibly can be at State and that is all I care about.

For every Taylor, Hill (3 star by the way), and Torbert you give me, I'll give you Jason Richardson, Zach Randolph, and Mo Pete right back.

Yeah, Zach Randolph was all Izzo I'm sure. I'm just saying don't make the guy out to be a god and throw stuff around that affects your program as well.

If Tom Izzo was your head coach, would you not give him all the praise in the world?

He's one of the best in the biz and I'll praise him until my days are done.

YOU GUYS DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO START TOM BRADY!

He was passed over for the biggest bust since Ryan Leaf....none other that the "hype machine" himself Drew Hensen.

I'll agree that you guys turn over many quality players, but you can never take credit for Tom Brady. As a matter of fact there should be a Tom Brady rule.

If I was Tom Brady I would love to waltz into Lloyd Carr's office and punch him right in the throat...with all of my rings on.

Keep in mind that he was a 6th round pick. Call out every NFL team 6 times for every one time you call out Michigan.

And Henson was pretty much considered a lock for the #1 pick had he stayed at Michigan. Really tough to blame the UM coaches for that.

Double horse shit. Henson was garbage. He never played a full season and he sure enough gave away the MSU/ UofM game that Tom Brady would have won if they had left him in. I was at that game and laughed my ass of when they trotted his sorry ass onto the field.

I have a ton of respect for many Michigan recruits....but he was a douche bag...he even sucked at baseball.

I was talking in reference to Lucas about MSU's guards going to the NBA.

Mateen Cleaves, Chris Hill, Kelvin Torbert, Charlie Bell, Marcus Taylor....etc. Straight BUST! :P

Also, Henson was the #1 player in the country coming out of high school, so it's tough not to put him on the field. In the 1999 season, he split time with Brady and I'll admit I wanted Henson to play because of his rep. But as the season went on, it was clear that Brady was the more polished QB at that time and for the second half of the year, Brady ran the show and I agreed with the decision. All these Sparty fan boys act like Michigan hated Tom Brady while he was there and now we hype him like he's our boy because he's the best player in the NFL. NOT TRUE! :bs:

Michigan fans wanted Henson early, but realized Brady was better, and loved him and he led us to a win in the 2000 Orange Bowl.

OH MY GOSH, I AM GOING FREAKING NUTS IN MY SEAT RIGHT NOW. MOODINI, YOU ARE SO FULL OF SHIT RIGHT NOW IT IS RIDICULOUS. HERE IS WHAT I'M GOING NUTS ABOUT:

:shock: :shock: :shock:
Michigan fans wanted Henson early, but realized Brady was better, and loved him and he led us to a win in the 2000 Orange Bowl. :shock: :shock: :shock:

I sat with you and your Michigan boys every game that season and listened to you and all your Wolverines beg for Henson to be in and hate on Brady EVERY SINGLE GAME! I can't believe you would even try saying this!!!!! You know how I remember things said! Michigan fans including you were pushing Brady out the door for "the great" Henson. Michigan gave him a half of a freaking season and now they want to claim him. BULLSHIT! :x I can't believe you tried claiming this when I sat right next to you and listened to you bash him his whole senior season. That's a fact.

By the way, the guards you mentioned all have either Final Four or National Championship rings on their fingers as we speak. :lol:

By the way, the guards you mentioned all have either Final Four or National Championship rings on their fingers as we speak. Laughing

This statement means absolutely jack shit since Moodini was speaking in regards to the NBA.

When it comes to keeping your high ranking in football you are only allowed to lose one time throughout the year and that makes it tough. I will give State the fact that they have a tough basketball schedule, but in basketball you can lose plenty of times and still be in the mix. They also have a tournament which means we do know who is the best at the end of the year. Football is always going to be biased due to the fact that you have to go undefeated to keep your high ranking and there is no tournament.

State Basketball
2004-2005 13-3 2nd place
2003-2004 12-4 2nd place (tied)
2002-2003 10-6 3rd place (tied)
2001-2002 9-7 5th place (tied)

Wow, I dont see any Big Ten titles in that span right there, but these are supposed to be the Elite cats that big Tre speaks of............weird.

Hey Filly, who's won the most Big Ten titles in the last 10 years? Who's went to more Final Fours than anyone in the nation over the last 10 years?

Shut the fuck up.



ps sorry that was kinda harsh :wink:

You can't talk about Final Fours b/c football doesnt use a system that is equal. Michigan has gone to the Rose Bowl 2 of the last 3 years and won their conference, but you dimiss that. Until football has a tournament (which we can ALL agree is needed) this whole thread is completely moot. I will argue with you till we're both blue in the face, but what good would it do.

Agreed. We could go on forever. But, I have given credit for Rose Bowls. I've mentioned that several times. The only thing I get on Michigan's case for is losing the big one. (OSU game or Bowl games)

"How many times do you get a chance to play in front of a national television audience?" said David Williams, the Vanderbilt's chancellor for student life and athletics. "Add the fact that your opponent is one of the elite programs in the history of college football and, indeed, one of the great universities in our nation and it becomes an awesome opportunity."

Straight from the mouth of Vanderbilt's chancellor. He thinks we are elite.

Straight from the mouth of Vanderbilt's chancellor. He thinks we are elite.

Well, case closed! Vanderbilt's chancellor said it. :laughing5:


He said, "history of college football." Nobody is arguing against their place in the history of college football. Only their current status among the best is in question.

Straight from the mouth of Vanderbilt's chancellor. He thinks we are elite.

Well, case closed! Vanderbilt's chancellor said it. :laughing5:


He said, "history of college football." Nobody is arguing against their place in the history of college football. Only their current status among the best is in question.

Whose opinion do you respect more? The Chancellor of a Division 1 NCAA institution or random poster DrTre11 on a message board? :dontknow:

Straight from the mouth of Vanderbilt's chancellor. He thinks we are elite.

Well, case closed! Vanderbilt's chancellor said it. :laughing5:


He said, "history of college football." Nobody is arguing against their place in the history of college football. Only their current status among the best is in question.

Whose opinion do you respect more? The Chancellor of a Division 1 NCAA institution or random poster DrTre11 on a message board? :dontknow:

And why exactly are you placing weight in either person's corner?

Unless one of the media sources comes out with an "elite" ranking for college football like they did with college basketball a few months back, why don't you just make your mind up for yourself and employ facts to back it up instead of quoting the Chancellor of fucking Vanderbilt? :lol:

Has this discussion honestly been reduced to "let's see who can find a quote saying that the school I support is elite"? Wow is that pathetic.

It was just a funny quote to put in the 'Is Michigan Elite' thread. He states they are ELITE. Just a little laugh..get over it.

Whose opinion do you respect more? The Chancellor of a Division 1 NCAA institution or random poster DrTre11 on a message board?

If you are a Commodore, isn't everyone elite to you? haha

I keep hearing this "every recruiting class of Izzo's since 96 has been to a final four" crap arguing for State elite-ness, leaving out the "so what happens during the off years doesn't matter" part that's an obvious end to the sentence. So it doesn't matter that every Lloyd Carr class (with the obvious exception of this past year's true freshmen - so far) has won the big ten, the best conference in football?

I keep hearing this "every recruiting class of Izzo's since 96 has been to a final four" crap arguing for State elite-ness, leaving out the "so what happens during the off years doesn't matter" part that's an obvious end to the sentence. So it doesn't matter that every Lloyd Carr class (with the obvious exception of this past year's true freshmen - so far) has won the big ten, the best conference in football?

I understand where the Michigan football program has been consistent. Big Ten championships are excellent accomplishments and I believe that Michigan has more conference crowns in the last ten years (football) than MSU basketball has Final Fours (not sure about that). However, a Final Four in basketball is better than a conference championship in basketball or football, IMHO.

Well, Nick, you're a newcomer to a lot of the Elite conversation, and you seem to attempt objectivity in your arguments. We've established that there is no good way to compare basketball and football since one has a tourney and the other doesn't, so you can't reference final fours, for example, in a football argument.

Here's the deal - would you make a claim that State hoops is elite without giving Wolverine football the same credit?

Well, Nick, you're a newcomer to a lot of the Elite conversation, and you seem to attempt objectivity in your arguments. We've established that there is no good way to compare basketball and football since one has a tourney and the other doesn't, so you can't reference final fours, for example, in a football argument.

Here's the deal - would you make a claim that State hoops is elite without giving Wolverine football the same credit?

No. But I would say that Michigan is starting to walk a fine line towards a degree of national insignificance they are not used to. MSU's Final Four appearance last year helped discontinue their journey down that same fine line. Michigan needs a BCS bowl WIN badly, especially considering the talent they recruit to that school.

No. But I would say that Michigan is starting to walk a fine line towards a degree of national insignificance they are not used to. MSU's Final Four appearance last year helped discontinue their journey down that same fine line. Michigan needs a BCS bowl WIN badly, especially considering the talent they recruit to that school.

Good Post. [smilie=applause.gi:

So you agree Tre? Michigan wins a BCS bowl next year and they're elite again? Is that it? What if State doesn't make it to the sweet 16 this year? Back down that road?

So you agree Tre? Michigan wins a BCS bowl next year and they're elite again? Is that it? What if State doesn't make it to the sweet 16 this year? Back down that road?

I think it would take more than one year of not making the Sweet Sixteen for the Spartans to enter questionable territory again. When a pattern forms that doesn't meet expectations then it becomes problematic. Michigan hasn't won a BCS bowl game since the '99 season, '00 Orange Bowl. There was progress shown with 2 straight Rose Bowl appearnaces, however a 7-5 season and a loss in the Alamo Bowl only displays regression.

SpartyNick always sums it up perfectly. I don't even have to post anymore. Just cut and paste his posts haha. nice job nick

So anything Sparty Nick says you completely agree with? That's a huge step for you, since he actually uses reason in most of his arguments and has a mildly open and objective mind. That's more than I've heard out of most Spartans on this board.

So anything Sparty Nick says you completely agree with? That's a huge step for you, since he actually uses reason in most of his arguments and has a mildly open and objective mind. That's more than I've heard out of most Spartans on this board.

Jethro, you really sum it up perfectly. I don't even feel the need to post anymore..

:)

I keep hearing this "every recruiting class of Izzo's since 96 has been to a final four" crap arguing for State elite-ness, leaving out the "so what happens during the off years doesn't matter" part that's an obvious end to the sentence. So it doesn't matter that every Lloyd Carr class (with the obvious exception of this past year's true freshmen - so far) has won the big ten, the best conference in football?

If this is true about Carr (I'm not sure it is) than that's amazing too. I'm not like you. I'm not going to hate on an amazing accomplishment like that. If every Lloyd Carr recruit in the history of his career at Michigan has a BT Title ring than that is amazing.

I find it funny that you refer to objectivity Jethro. You're on one thread hating on MSU's 4 Final Fours yet you are looking for objective posts from others. What a joke.

I keep hearing this "every recruiting class of Izzo's since 96 has been to a final four" crap arguing for State elite-ness, leaving out the "so what happens during the off years doesn't matter" part that's an obvious end to the sentence. So it doesn't matter that every Lloyd Carr class (with the obvious exception of this past year's true freshmen - so far) has won the big ten, the best conference in football?

If this is true about Carr (I'm not sure it is) than that's amazing too. I'm not like you. I'm not going to hate on an amazing accomplishment like that. If every Lloyd Carr recruit in the history of his career at Michigan has a BT Title ring than that is amazing.

I find it funny that you refer to objectivity Jethro. You're on one thread hating on MSU's 4 Final Fours yet you are looking for objective posts from others. What a joke.

BULLSHIT!

You're not going to hate on an amazing Michigan accomplishment? I'm pretty sure that actually makes up 23.7% of your life up until this point. That's one of the things you're known for. Remember that YOU are the one that keeps the argument going by claiming Michigan isn't elite, oh, except for the for 20 years of the past century.

Keep in mind, once again, that my hatred for State accomplishments is simply fuel against your arguments. I've said over a hundred times that it's neither or both. I'll gladly give you your State accomplishments if you accept the Michigan accomplishments. Yes, Michigan is slipping from elite status if they don't come through soon, but you never even acknowledged they had it recently. Even the reference to your precious article that doesn't exist would signify they were elite prior to this season, something that you would not give them.

BULLSHIT!

You're not going to hate on an amazing Michigan accomplishment? I'm pretty sure that actually makes up 23.7% of your life up until this point. That's one of the things you're known for. Remember that YOU are the one that keeps the argument going by claiming Michigan isn't elite, oh, except for the for 20 years of the past century.


BULLSHIT right back at ya. For some reason, you've always tried to pin me as the guy who won't give Michigan credit for anything. You are attempting this in your post above. Yet, if you go to page one of the "Michigan NOT Elite" thread, you'll find that I cite them as Elite historically.

You tried to pin this on me during the fball season as well. I proceeded to post three direct quotes where I gave credit to Michigan for wins they achieved. Your response, "I don't remember that."

Your attempt to put this tag on me is BULLSHIT. You have nothing to back it up other than your selective memory. And the reason why it is Bullshit is because it is the kettle calling the pot black.

Tell me Mr. Credit when you have acknowledged MSU for anything? Go ahead, give me.....let's start with 1 example. Just give me 1. You post paragraph after paragraph hating on MSU's success. Pointing out 1 or 2 bad years in a decade. Yet, you claim I don't give credit.

Bullshit right back at ya.

Did Mood steal your login Tre? This new praising Michigan thing is throwin me off.

Jethro just posted this in another thread after I named UM as one of the 3 teams to beat in the BT. hahahahahaha Give it two days and he'll be claiming that I dont' give credit again.

Half my posts on eliteness talk about how I think Michigan football is the same as State basketball, and I think Michigan footbal is elite. Obviously that means I think State hoops is elite. I just won't give credit on the one if I'm not getting it on the other. If you want to nitpick about Michigan, I'll nitpick about State. I've given State plenty of credit. Remember I was there against Duke and gave props. What about when I told you about the Davis dunk you hadn't seen? Or the credit I gave Izzo for being cooler than I would have been? Perhaps you missed me saying I would gladly trade basketball programs with them. Remember, and I'll say for the 10th time today, I want both or neither. I've shown so many examples of how the two disputed programs are on par with one another in terms of recent winning %. Both have won big games, both have blown big games. Both have won games they shouldn't have and lost games they shouldn't have. Both have also had legit losses to teams that were clearly better.

Just because you believe both are Elite or neither are Elite does not mean that is a fact. Everybody doesn't have to agree with you.

I believe that MSU is on the Elite level right NOW. Michigan football is not on the Elite level NOW.

I believe Michigan Football is Elite historically. I believe State is too, but not as much as Michigan is.

Ok, not that I'm anywhere close to following your path, tell me when the last time was that you DID consider Michigan to be elite - not historically, but the last time, in your life, that you ever said "Michigan is elite right now." First, I realize there is no way in hell you ever said that, been when is the last time you would have admitted they were?

kettle calling the pot black.

Pot calling the Kettle, fwiw.

Ok, not that I'm anywhere close to following your path, tell me when the last time was that you DID consider Michigan to be elite - not historically, but the last time, in your life, that you ever said "Michigan is elite right now." First, I realize there is no way in hell you ever said that, been when is the last time you would have admitted they were?

Probably between 97-01. Don't have time to look up the records, etc. But, that is my first guess. I'll get back to you on that.

Denial Jethro, look it up and you might see your grill.

From a Rivals.com Interview with their EXPERTS...


Let's start off with your general thoughts on this class?

Farrell: "We grade on quality and quantity, which is why Michigan is a little bit lower than its fans are probably used to. But they're the only team in the Top 25 that signed less than 20 players, and that's pretty a remarkable accomplishment.

"I think Michigan did very well. There was a time for concern earlier in the fall because they were striking out on some top targets, but patience paid off for Michigan – they finished extremely strong.

"To go out across the country and pull top players out of new areas, like Colorado and Georgia, and then to go down into Florida, out to California and Washington – I think it just really shows you Michigan remains one of the elite programs in college football and recruits want to be a part of that tradition of success."

STOP HATING!

Farrell
Shouldn't he be producing Snoop's new track and workin' on a few new hooks?

[smilie=dj.gif] [smilie=djparty.gif] [smilie=hammertime.:


I'll stop hatin' when UM wins a big game. Or maybe even a bowl game...or maybe even just a win over OSU....or ND....

Way to throw those maybe's in there so you have an excuse not to stop.

You didn't pick up on my sarcasm. I was basically trying to hint at the fact that they need to win a big game.

Yeah, I caught that, but I also caught that you wouldn't allow yourself to be quoted as saying you would for sure stop the hatin. I caught both parts. It was both witty and tricky. Props for your rhetoric.

I know Tre always makes this a "recent" arguement, but I'm more of a historic guy. I thought about something today. In "their sport" let's see how they stack up.

NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS
Michigan Football-11
Michigan State Basketball-2

One more thing, after recent events, (Jethro mentioned this earlier) a certain question from the old site needs to be answered and asked again.

We hang in your sport, can you hang in ours?
http://vmedia.rivals.com/uploads/883/F142789.jpg http://www.mgoblue.com/images/football/05-06/msu/52.jpg
The Wolverines celebrate victories over the Spartans in both sports.

Mood- [smilie=wink3.gif]

One more thing, after recent events, (Jethro mentioned this earlier) a certain question from the old site needs to be answered and asked again.

We hang in your sport, can you hang in ours?
The Wolverines celebrate victories over the Spartans in both sports.
Mood- [smilie=wink3.gif]

If we're gonna talk recent history I will remind you that Michigan basketball has now beaten MSU the same number of times MSU football has beaten Michigan during said time period. 1999 - present

Also keep in mind that in football these teams only play once a year and in basketball they play twice in most seasons. Hence MSU basketball has fended off their rival from the Southeast far more times during this span than Michigan football has their rival from the Northwest.

If you consider yourself to be "hanging" in "our" sport than I will consider ourselves to be "hanging" in "yours".

http://img282.imageshack.us/img282/1999/image0147es.jpg
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/2866/msuscoreboard998yp.jpg
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/5681/msuteamtrophy4xa.jpg

I know Tre always makes this a "recent" arguement, but I'm more of a historic guy. I thought about something today. In "their sport" let's see how they stack up.

NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS
Michigan Football-11
Michigan State Basketball-2

Michigan fans will always refer to their National Championships, but will they ever post the years that they occured? No, because 10 of those 10 1/2 Championships that they have didn't occur in the common era. They occured when half of college football's programs right now didn't exist. They occured when guys were wearing leather helmets. We weren't even close to being conceived when these things occured.

Michigan 2-12 versus MSU. Moodini, keep tellin' me that you're "hangin"

Moodini----> [smilie=angry.gif] http://cnnsi.dk/basketball/college/2000/ncaa_tourney/midwest/news/2000/03/25/iowast_michst_ap/t1_cleeves_ap.jpg
We remember our Championships, and we count in wholes, not halves.

big 10 regular season records last 5 years:

michigan football 32-8 (80%)
michigan state basketball 53-27 (67%)


case closed?

big 10 regular season records last 5 years:

michigan football 32-8 (80%)
michigan state basketball 53-27 (67%)


case closed?

Dude, case was closed 12 months ago. Notice the last time someone posted in this thread. What are you doing going back 15 pages? We all seemed to come to an agreement a long time ago that both programs were Elite. Take some time to read up before you post, you're making an appearance like Leonardo in What's Eating Gilbert Grape. http://www.boxofficemojo.com/images/gilbertgrape_story2.jpg

I am glad that the overwhelmingly obvious facts have finally penetrated that skull of yours. First I can't talk about msu basketball in one thread. Then I can't rub you face in your own idiocy in another thread. I guess I just can't post here, huh?

By the way, I refer to your previous last words about the status of UM football before I showed you up. Please keep acting like an ass when I embarass you. it is fun for me!


I believe that MSU is on the Elite level right NOW. Michigan football is not on the Elite level NOW.


Dude, case was closed 12 months ago. Notice the last time someone posted in this thread. What are you doing going back 15 pages? We all seemed to come to an agreement a long time ago that both programs were Elite. Take some time to read up before you post, you're making an appearance like Leonardo in What's Eating Gilbert Grape. http://www.boxofficemojo.com/images/gilbertgrape_story2.jpg

big 10 regular season records last 5 years:

michigan football 32-8 (80%)
michigan state basketball 53-27 (67%)


case closed?

[smilie=applause.gi: I love this kid! [smilie=welcome.gif]

I am glad that the overwhelmingly obvious facts have finally penetrated that skull of yours. First I can't talk about msu basketball in one thread. Then I can't rub you face in your own idiocy in another thread. I guess I just can't post here, huh?

By the way, I refer to your previous last words about the status of UM football before I showed you up. Please keep acting like an ass when I embarass you. it is fun for me!

Hello retard, I posted that 12 months ago when UM was 7-5. I wouldn't brag too much about your great football team that just finished their season losing its 5th game in 6 against its rival and now will end the season without a Championship.

Yes, I will rip you when you post about Spartan Basketball in the Who will play OSU thread.

Tre, you have anger management issues, I think you need counseling.

Tre, you have anger management issues, I think you need counseling.

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not angry about anything. This new guy is coming in and posting thread after thread attacking me and most of it is over stuff that was discussed months ago.

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not angry about anything. This new guy is coming in and posting thread after thread attacking me and most of it is over stuff that was discussed months ago.

I'm talking about how everything with you is a battle, instead of a healthy debate. You take this shit too personally son.

As further evidence of the idiocy of the tre argument, I looked at yearly big 10 records for the last 5 years. UM football has a better winning pct every year for the last 5 compared to sparty basketball. This ignores the current excellent UM football team and current mediocre msu basketball team. Let's take a look at the numbers:

year um football msu basketball
05-06 5-3 > 8-8
04-05 7-1 > 13-3
03-04 7-1 > 8-8
02-03 6-2 > 10-6
01-02 6-2 > 10-6

Read it and weep... every year UM football has been more successful than MSU basketball in conference. We proud UM alums to hold our teams to higher standards, but, still, facts are facts. You can make any specious argument you like. I rely on facts for my case rather pictures of leonardo dicaprio. i know you're a huge leo fan but I don't think that is relevant to the topic at hand. Do you think this year's sparty bball team will be able to go 14-2 and have a better season than UM football?

Tre, I think it is time to admit that I am your daddy.






Hello retard, I posted that 12 months ago when UM was 7-5. I wouldn't brag too much about your great football team that just finished their season losing its 5th game in 6 against its rival and now will end the season without a Championship.

Yes, I will rip you when you post about Spartan Basketball in the Who will play OSU thread.

I'm not sure whose daddy you are, but it's becoming crystal clear that your daddy and mommy were heavily involved in recreation drugs at the time of your conception.
You're fighting a 10 month old battle. It had already been decided, Tre gave it up. That's why I'm locking this thread.

Is it open now?

Thanks, Vin!

Totally agree. Michigan is NOT elite.

Tre, I think it is time to admit that I am your daddy.

I forgot how much of a tool Jethro was too.