I don't want to hear anymore bullshit about development or earning a spot.
Also, I don't even know who Sally is, but fuck her too. (<- but fuck)

Knight, Drummond, Monroe. That is the core of the team now, everyone else is fucking replaceable worthless garbage juice role playing over the hill wishy washy non-elite nba sludge. Fuck you Max, you play great helpside because no one respects your size and constantly challenges you with garbage , you should be coming off the bench. Who the fuck is Singler? I have no fucking idea, but it sure seems like he would benefit from playing wtih guys who could realistically grab 25 boards all by themselves. As would that Brandon Knight kid, given that his defense is horrendous it would be nice to have opposing guards run into a shitstorm of long and quick. Even purple rain would benefit from the spacing. But hey, this isn't about winning games, or selling tickets, or even coherent development of a youthful core. This is about lowering expectations so far that when this squad inevitably starts playing .500 ball next year you marks will pile into the arena. Could they do that this year? Probably, hell, I bet they could be a 7th or 8th seed if anyone saw fit to give it a shot. But FUCK me right? Fuck my semi-sweet white chocolate emergency exit. Lets watch our future superstar idle in the bench where he is learning the useful skill of sitting on his ass.

Tax the rich, eat the poor, kiss my ass, Will Bynum forever, peace to your mother.

no u

How are things with the woman, old friend? It's so cool to see one of us make it.

How are things with the woman, old friend? It's so cool to see one of us make it.

She dumped me , so I got a new one, a better one.
WHICH IS HOW JOE SHOULD RUN THIS FUCKING TEAM.

Sorry. You lost me when you called Brandon knight a horrendous defender. That's a departure from common sense that many of us will never reach in our lifetimes. Not only is knight not horrendous, he's actually very, very good on defense.

Then again, you still seem to be in love with will Bynum...

My hunch is that Drummond starts by the trade deadline.

My hunch is that Drummond starts by the trade deadline.

I believe the main reason drummond isn't playing more has to do with conditioning rather than performance and/or a coach's inability to recognize his future value as a starting player. He's been primarily an energy guy during the first month of the season and I believe both he and his body are still trying to adjust to this role and the physical demands. It also looks like he's lost a little weight, especially in the upper body, since entering the NBA which I believe also has to do with him adjusting to this role. Once he gets the physical/conditioning part down there's no doubt he'll be in the starting lineup, perhaps by the trade deadline if not sooner...I'm thinking sooner.

Either way I'm not concerned at all as it's just a matter of time before he will be ready to start against starting-quality NBA bigs. And I keep reminding myself that Dennis Rodman only played 15 minutes a game in his first season (77 games) and you can't say that other guys were keeping him off the floor (sydney green...tony campbell...)

Patience my friends.

Sorry. You lost me when you called Brandon knight a horrendous defender. That's a departure from common sense that many of us will never reach in our lifetimes. Not only is knight not horrendous, he's actually very, very good on defense.

Then again, you still seem to be in love with will Bynum...

Bynum love is admittedly irrational, always has been. One of my favorite college players. Horrific NBA player.

Knight criticism is rational.
You say Knight is very, very good on defense? Lets make sure we highlight this as your claim, because that is a very large claim which will require outstanding evidence. So far, I can only find evidence to the contrary. For instance http://www.82games.com/1213/1213DET5.HTM Detroit has the worst PG differential in the NBA and the worst opposing PG PER I've found(correction, Cleveland is worse). Too small of a sample size you say? Here is last year, not all that different. http://www.82games.com/1112/1112DET5.HTM Don't think the results are meaningful? take what you think are the top 10 best, and top 10 worst and see how they compare. It isn't pretty.
Or take Dtrg 303 Brandon Knight out of 420 http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_advanced.html
Or 393 of 478 Brandon Knight the year before. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2012_advanced.html

You'll either have to come to the conclusion that there is heavy statistically bias against Brandon Knight, or you're wrong. Caveat being this data does not isolate just Brandon knight or any other starter, so it is not entirely fair (team game). In spite of that, I challenge you to show me anything to the contrary.

So, what do we know about Brandon Knight, we know that he is a fantastic deep threat and inconsistent playmaker, and this is the potential we hope becomes more developed. These attributes are very much accounted for in any statistical analysis of him. Defensively it is harder to gauge a player, but Knight is fairly easy. He is not good in any classic or comparative categories.

To summarize, you replied to my post in a very contentious way. You attacked my credibility on the basis of something I do farcically. You made a counter claim with no evidence, and even went as far to call my analysis a departure from common sense that no one else would make.

What is less explainable, though, is Knight’s dropoff in defense. Knight’s defensive rating was 109 as a rookie and it’s slightly worse at 110 this season. He’s getting significantly fewer steals too (.7 per 36 minutes last season, .4 this season; 1.2 percent steal percentage last season, .7 percent this season), a disappointment considering his quickness and long arms, which should theoretically help him get into passing lanes.
http://www.pistonpowered.com/2012/12/is-brandon-knight-progressing-yes-but-its-complicated/


I look forward to nothing meaningful from you on this topic in the future.

Of course there's a statistical bias against Knight's defense. There's always going to be a statistical bias against a guard that doesn't accumulate steals or blocks and simply keeps his man from creating offense. The only way a player like that makes an impact statistically is in the team concept. Guess what? The Pistons are a pretty damn good defensive team when Knight is on the floor.

Perimeter defense is almost impossible to quantify with statistics. The opposing PG differential stat is flawed because Knight doesn't play the entire game, and because it factors in offensive production. In addition, steals are the single most misleading indicator of perimeter defense. They're icing on the cake, but if the cake is terrible then they become meaningless.

Knight rarely if ever gets beat off the dribble. He rarely if ever loses track of his man off the ball. Do you know why he rarely gets steals? Because Because he keeps his focus on his man and he doesn't gamble.

The Pistons are the #3 (THIRD) best defensive team in the NBA by FG% at this moment, and the main reason aside from Drummond is Knight. He never allows himself to be broken down by opposing point guards, which forces teams to methodically run offensive sets and work harder to get baskets. That generally relaxes once Stuckey checks in, but Drummond offets that.

Knight has a lot of work to do to be a premier floor leader. At this point, he's probably below average in that aspect. His best attribute, even ahead of his scoring, is his defense. At barely 21, he gets it. He doesn't worry about playing hero ball on defense and gambling all the time. He's too big and too quick for most point guards to get by, and for the most part he plays pick and rolls exceptionally well.

The Pistons have a great chance to be a devastating defensive team in the future with Knight and Drummond. Knight is a brick wall keeping smaller guards out of the paint, and Drummond has the makings of a dominating interior defender, both in the post and off the ball. Teams are going to rack up 24 second violations just trying to get a decent look at the basket.

Oh, and the PistonPowered blog. I'd say the only thing useful for that guy's articles would be toilet paper, but it is in fact an internet site, so it actually has no redeeming qualities at all. It would be nice to let Frank read that crack at Knight's defensive rating just to hear his reaction, because I know Frank is seeing the same thing every night that I am.

BTW, if defensive rating was any factor at all (it isn't), Khris Middleton would be the 7th best defender in the NBA (he's not) one spot above Kevin Love (hilarious) but 3 spot behind Josh Harrelson at #4 (LMAO)

I stand by my departure from logic accusation, by the way. There is no way anyone with a semblance of sanity could watch Knight play for any extended period of time and conclude he is even an average defender. Unless you haven't been watching any Piston games this season and are just reading box scores, in which case I retract my accusation.

Of course there's a statistical bias against Knight's defense. There's always going to be a statistical bias against a guard that doesn't accumulate steals or blocks and simply keeps his man from creating offense. The only way a player like that makes an impact statistically is in the team concept. Guess what? The Pistons are a pretty damn good defensive team when Knight is on the floor.
There is no evidence that he is preventing his man from creating offense.



Perimeter defense is almost impossible to quantify with statistics. The opposing PG differential stat is flawed because Knight doesn't play the entire game, and because it factors in offensive production. In addition, steals are the single most misleading indicator of perimeter defense. They're icing on the cake, but if the cake is terrible then they become meaningless.
Steals also show indicate pressure and harassment, which if Knight were this great lock down perimeter defender he would occasionally trip into a few. I'm aware that cherry picking the lane the best way to pad that stat and can make it deceptive. Which is why at no point did I highlight steals , I simply pointed out that he isn't good in any classical category to reinforce the larger point. He doesn't stop anyone.
Also, transitional and help defense exist.


Knight rarely if ever gets beat off the dribble. He rarely if ever loses track of his man off the ball. Do you know why he rarely gets steals? Because Because he keeps his focus on his man and he doesn't gamble.
And Inge doesn't lead the MLB in homers because everyone pitches him like Babe Ruth.


The Pistons are the #3 (THIRD) best defensive team in the NBA by FG% at this moment, and the main reason aside from Drummond is Knight. He never allows himself to be broken down by opposing point guards, which forces teams to methodically run offensive sets and work harder to get baskets. That generally relaxes once Stuckey checks in, but Drummond offets that.
Ok, wow. So statistics that focus on a single position are less valuable to you in evaluating a single position than stats for the entire team? Shut the fuck up, really? REALLY?


Knight has a lot of work to do to be a premier floor leader. At this point, he's probably below average in that aspect. His best attribute, even ahead of his scoring, is his defense. At barely 21, he gets it. He doesn't worry about playing hero ball on defense and gambling all the time. He's too big and too quick for most point guards to get by, and for the most part he plays pick and rolls exceptionally well. Provide any amount of evidence to support these claims. matchup attempts in the paint and percentages. Mid range attempts and percentages. Distribution of shot selection by opponents. Any of that shit would go a long way towards proving your assertion.


The Pistons have a great chance to be a devastating defensive team in the future with Knight and Drummond. Knight is a brick wall keeping smaller guards out of the paint, and Drummond has the makings of a dominating interior defender, both in the post and off the ball. Teams are going to rack up 24 second violations just trying to get a decent look at the basket.
Redundant ballwashing, moving on.


Oh, and the PistonPowered blog. I'd say the only thing useful for that guy's articles would be toilet paper, but it is in fact an internet site, so it actually has no redeeming qualities at all. It would be nice to let Frank read that crack at Knight's defensive rating just to hear his reaction, because I know Frank is seeing the same thing every night that I am.
I love how in your mind, you are on level with the NBA in evaluation.
I provided that link because you claimed it was an assault against reason to come to the same conclusion I do. I was expecting you to find all these articles heaping praise on his defense.



BTW, if defensive rating was any factor at all (it isn't), Khris Middleton would be the 7th best defender in the NBA (he's not) one spot above Kevin Love (hilarious) but 3 spot behind Josh Harrelson at #4 (LMAO)
#1 every player qualifies
#2 sample size
#3 positional bias. F/C bias for , SF against, Guards Great<100-105<Poor in general.
#4 there are outliers due to pace, injury, supporting cast, but they can usually be explained by other stats in a players line, for Knight, there is no such help.


I stand by my departure from logic accusation, by the way. There is no way anyone with a semblance of sanity could watch Knight play for any extended period of time and conclude he is even an average defender. Unless you haven't been watching any Piston games this season and are just reading box scores, in which case I retract my accusation.

Ok, first of all, I gave up on sanity long ago, but I didn't give up on math and logic. These don't appeal to you, only YOUR SUBJECTIVE ANALYSIS is what you provide, because it is the only thing you care about. You love you some you, I get it , you can coach Frank have telepathic pow-wows and shit. Ok. If you won't back your shit up, then keep it out of my toilet.
Baaaaaaaai

Subjective analysis is all you can go by when evaluating perimeter defense. I thought we established this already. If you don't like my subjective analysis on his defense, don't throw slop against the wall.

If you want something telling to look for, and I know watching a basketball game for something ther than highlight plays is a big step for you, look at the other team's offensive output at the end of the first quarter. Knight routinely plays the first 12 minutes (unless he gets in foul trouble), and usually the team we play is in an offensive funk early. That's not a coincidence.

Subjective analysis is all you can go by when evaluating perimeter defense. I thought we established this already. If you don't like my subjective analysis on his defense, don't throw slop against the wall.
I can find a bunch of great perimeter defenders and show you statistical evidence for it, and vice versa. We can even account for pace , opponents, teammates, days rest, anything you want, just takes effort. But no matter how hard you try, you will not make Brandon Knight look like a very good defender, because stats are just mathematical analysis of reality, its not like we are trying to model intuition, potential, leadership, or any other intangible. You are trying to make defense sound like it is intangible, it isn't. Just a little complicated. Neither one of our analysis are totally objective, I just happen to have facts to back me up, and you'll always be left shitting in your hands.



If you want something telling to look for, and I know watching a basketball game for something ther than highlight plays is a big step for you, look at the other team's offensive output at the end of the first quarter. Knight routinely plays the first 12 minutes (unless he gets in foul trouble), and usually the team we play is in an offensive funk early. That's not a coincidence.

Ah yes, the old if you disagree with me you aren't watching him play nonsense. Well, I do watch him play, hell, I even watched him play Live. That's right, I paid money to watch the Pistons last year, I was one of those 8 people. I watched about 40 games on the tube. I've probably watched 800 games in the past decade. I also play badly 4 times a week. Unfortunately, I'm not some casual asshole, sorry. Otherwise I wouldn't even be here talking about a 2nd year PG for a shitty team. I liked the Monroe and Knight picks and it makes me excited for the team's future. I was even excited for the team to come out strong after the all star break like they did. When these idiots decide to start Drummond, I'll buy the broadband league pass. You still have to go and prove your case against the evidence. I am not going to examine a sample size of 12 minutes in 1 quarter for a guy that is out there for over 30 and the game. If you can show a strong trend in the sample over the course of at least half the year, I'll take it into consideration as potentially useful and discuss any data, but right now, not even worth my time when the burden of proof remains on you.

I'm sure there could be a comprehensive statistical analysis of perimeter defense. Your problem is, there currently isn't one, and making one would be extremely difficult.

The burden of proof isn't on me. There is no reliable stat saying knight can't play defense, either.

When knight is in the game, the other team's point guard does not get into the lane, and he doesn't get good shots. I don't need a stat to tell me what my eyes are already telling me.

I'm sure there could be a comprehensive statistical analysis of perimeter defense. Your problem is, there currently isn't one, and making one would be extremely difficult.

The burden of proof isn't on me. There is no reliable stat saying knight can't play defense, either.

There are plently of metrics that have a very strong correlation between observable defensive ability and statistically analysis. You just refuse to accept them even if they can effectively tell you that Lindsey Hunter was one of the better defnders of 03-04 with a high degreee of certainty. Tell me this, do your own eyes also watch every PG in the league play every other PG in the league? If not, your eyes are watching from only one perspective and could perhaps be (gasp) biased. I call it the Lions QB effect, poor QB play looks amazing in comparision to god awful. A lot of the statistics used to measure defense are based on matchups. Rankings are set by comparison, and so the elite and poor are determined as such. Just as we can tell who is a volume scorer on a bad team, and who is a true scorer, we can also determine who is playing lock down perimeter defense with a reasonable level of certainty.



When knight is in the game, the other team's point guard does not get into the lane, and he doesn't get good shots. I don't need a stat to tell me what my eyes are already telling me.
There are stats that would verify what you are saying, so we don't need to rely on anyone's eyes. Like I said, I've also watched him play, and I agree with what the stats are representing as far as his defensive ability. You still need to bring it to the table or just conceed this is merely your opinion and you are unwilling/unable to provide strong evidence.

Or if you want to argue Knight's a bad defensive player, you could show Stephen Curry abusing him in the first six minutes of the third quarter of tonight's game, which was essentially the catalyst for a Golden State win.

Or if you want to argue Knight's a bad defensive player, you could show Stephen Curry abusing him in the first six minutes of the third quarter of tonight's game, which was essentially the catalyst for a Golden State win.

Or we can play by Kstat rules and just do the first 12.
Penetration and defensive lapses a plenty.

Or if you want to argue Knight's a bad defensive player, you could show Stephen Curry abusing him in the first six minutes of the third quarter of tonight's game, which was essentially the catalyst for a Golden State win.

That was the worst game I ever saw knight play. Totally out of character for him. He looked like he didn't even want to be there.

Doesn't change my opinion of knight's defensive ability, but it was certainly discouraging.

I was at the game tonight.

Drummond looked amazing in person.

It's actually a bit unreal that he impacts the game as much as he does considering he still gets lost on defense and gambles way too much. He got burned a few times in this game. I hope he's intelligent enough to understand when is a proper time to gamble for a block or a steal in the future, because he'll be a fucking monster if that happens.

Also, as weird as it might sound, he needs work physically too. He's huge, he's heavy, he's quick, but he doesn't really look that strong out there. He doesn't really bang in the post yet. He just leaps and uses his speed for everything right now. He also has a pretty odd posture when he runs, but I'm guessing that's why he has that penguin nickname.

His free throws look much worse in person than they do on TV. His shot has an awkward spin on it sometimes, a bit like Joakim Noah's. He also leans back when shooting like Ben Wallace used to do. It really doesn't look like anyone ever coached him on his shot at all.

He dunked the fuck out of everything, which I hope he does more of. That lay up put back bullshit he was doing before this was dumb as fuck. Dude needs to slam.

How long until Drummond starts? It seems we're to stop a runaway train.

Sure he's raw but who gives a shit? Start him, play him 30 minutes and see what he can do. Worst case scenario seems to be DeAndre Jordan II.

And it hasn't been mentioned here yet but:

Would you be open to trading Monroe for a stud wing player? Would you rather pay Monroe the MAX or do you believe Monroe wouldn't be worth that much?

Would you be open to trading Monroe for a stud wing player? Would you rather pay Monroe the MAX or do you believe Monroe wouldn't be worth that much?

I'd trade him for the right package. He isn't a max player, his defense isn't even close to justifying that pay. Who's the stud wing player you think would available?

Had no one in mind really, was just throwing it out there

Had no one in mind really, was just throwing it out there

That's the issue. From my view it seems like almost all of the talent in the league is at the 1, so a stud wing player is pretty much untouchable due to it's rarity. Either way, the franchise likely views Monroe as being untouchable as well. I think it sucks that his defense is lacking, but what can ya do?

Due to the lack of talent available on the wing is it worth trading for a 2nd or 3rd tier option that is highly likely to be overpaid?

Or do we just accept the fact there is a clear lack of quality wingmen and instead focus on what we do have (or coud have): TWO quality big men that actually compliment each other!

There is no talent deficiency at the wing. 7 of the top 10 scorers in the NBA are wings. You can get a decent wing player in just about any draft. A lot of teams have two players on the wing that either could be or are already very good. Golden State is a prime example.

The Pistons are with the Cavs, Jazz, Hawks, Suns and Wizards at rock bottom. Every other team has at least one current or future very good wing player.

You can't find nearly as many NBA teams with all star caliber big men. Only three teams in the NBA (OKC, Atlanta, LAL) have as many as two. The Pistons are in a select group of four (Pistons, Jazz, TWolves, Kings) with a legit chance to move into that group via natural progression.

That's seven. Three teams with two studs up front, and four teams that even have a chance at having two studs up front. Everyone else is out in the cold.

Which is kinda the point I believe we're making across the board:

Having 2 quality big men is rare... a quality wing isn't rare... a quality PG isn't rare

In order to get the maximum out of the rare gift we've been give by the NBA Draft Gods we need to get our bigs the best supporting cast possible...

Trading Monroe for a "stud wing" isn't something I'd be interested in doing - simply because if you don't acquire Lebron, Durant or Melo you're getting a 2nd tier player at best! And I don't believe a 2nd tier swingman is more valueable than a quality big man

There is no talent deficiency at the wing. 7 of the top 10 scorers in the NBA are wings. You can get a decent wing player in just about any draft. A lot of teams have two players on the wing that either could be or are already very good. Golden State is a prime example.

The Pistons are with the Cavs, Jazz, Hawks, Suns and Wizards at rock bottom. Every other team has at least one current or future very good wing player.

You can't find nearly as many NBA teams with all star caliber big men. Only three teams in the NBA (OKC, Atlanta, LAL) have as many as two. The Pistons are in a select group of four (Pistons, Jazz, TWolves, Kings) with a legit chance to move into that group via natural progression.

That's seven. Three teams with two studs up front, and four teams that even have a chance at having two studs up front. Everyone else is out in the cold.

When you talk 'Wings' does that include SGs? Srs question. I'm an old man and I'm still talking 1, 2, 3, 4, 5s if you know what I mean. I think thats outdated, no? So you talkin 2, 3, 4s? Or just 2 and 3s? depends on the offensive system?

When you talk 'Wings' does that include SGs? Srs question. I'm an old man and I'm still talking 1, 2, 3, 4, 5s if you know what I mean. I think thats outdated, no? So you talkin 2, 3, 4s? Or just 2 and 3s? depends on the offensive system?

I'm talking 2s and 3s. Non-PG perimeter guys. LeBron and Carmelo and Durant occasionally play the 4 technically, but they will always be wings to me.

Agree that I view Lebron, Melo and Durant as wings... and that's kinda my point. We can't get a wing that is better than those 3.

Also can't get a wing better than Wade and Kobe. Probably can't get a wing better than Harden either

So why are we so focused on getting a stud wing? Whomever we could get is 2nd tier at best. And the difference between the top tier wings and the 2nd or 3rd tiers is pretty significant IMO.

There are quality guys I haven't mentioned - but how many of them could we actually get for our cap space?

Brandon Knight only plays bad defense when I watch him. :insensitive:

He's dropped off a cliff defensively the last week. I'm chalking that up to his limited mobility with the thigh bruise.

The old model of stockpiling quality bigs for the right opportunity still applies.
Some folks get all goofy about Jmax playing over Drummond (even though AD avgs about 20 min lately)... To me it seems to be more about trying to get full value in trade.... if Max is packaged in a deal that brings back a quality wing... mission accomplished
Any way you look at it we'll have the assets to land an impact SG/SF by summer.... so if we lose a few extra games in the proccess... BFD

He's dropped off a cliff defensively the last week. I'm chalking that up to his limited mobility with the thigh bruise.

Thankfully that thigh bruise doesn't affect his offensive game.

A thigh bruise affects lateral quickness, which affects defense more than offense.

A thigh bruise affects lateral quickness, which affects defense more than offense.

You are adorable. : )

http://wagesofwins.com/2012/12/28/is-giving-andre-drummond-more-minutes-a-bad-idea/

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2012/12/detroit_pistons_incredible_ben.html

good stuff

There has to be consideration to Drummond starting.

There also has to be consideration in how clunky that still might look, with Greg Monroe shifting to power forward, and whether that's the best combination at all. The Memphis-can-do-it argument that you can play with two true bigs together is valid, but the Grizzlies also have two true post scorers in Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph, and a backcourt which turns mistakes into instant offense, which is why the Memphis-can-do-it argument exists.


Drummond has benefited from that interior freedom and Villanueva has benefited from having the off-side defensive help. They have formed a more effective front line than the limited use of Drummond and Monroe together has. There's some argument that if Drummond starts, the best power forward to pair with him remains Villanueva, to avoid clogging the interior. Monroe could move to the second unit and flourish offensively.

Of course, the only potential fallout from that kind of radical move is alienating Monroe, even greater emphasis on Daye's shooting with the second unit, and knocking Jason Maxiell out of the rotation. The latter might be preferable in many applications, unless the Pistons are trying to move Maxiell and his expiring contract before the trade deadline, a year after they thought they had a deal to move him to New Orleans for Chris Kaman before that proposal fell through.

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2012/12/detroit_pistons_incredible_ben.html

good stuff


that article is slightly braindead, Charlie isn't a post player, so drummond has "freedom" because the guy with charlie is guarding the 3 ball. That spacing is afforded to anyone with Charlie on the floor, the drawback is we have to take lower percentage shots and reduce rebounding efficency for it. What benefits just drummond does not reallly benefit the entire team. Having a clogged front court allows the backcourt to attack with more space and confidence that mistakes will be easily rebounded, it also leads to a higher pecentage offense working inside out. The two big tandem is easy money in the nba, it is adaptable to pretty much whatever backcourt you want to use.

The stretch four in the nba is fool's gold. It barely worked for miam because they have lebron James. Replace him with any ther human being on earth and Miami does not get out of the second round last summer.

I love Charlie V as a backup PF. I wish he made half as much as he does. I'd keep him around another 6 years. But we have to have a bigg base up front for games when we just aren't making perimeter shots.

Miami is very, very average when the 3 ball isn't falling. They have no way to get easy baskets apart from lebron and wade getting fast break steals and dunks.

The stretch four in the nba is fool's gold. It barely worked for miam because they have lebron James. Replace him with any ther human being on earth and Miami does not get out of the second round last summer.

I love Charlie V as a backup PF. I wish he made half as much as he does. I'd keep him around another 6 years. But we have to have a bigg base up front for games when we just aren't making perimeter shots.

Miami is very, very average when the 3 ball isn't falling. They have no way to get easy baskets apart from lebron and wade getting fast break steals and dunks.

What about Orlando with Howard a couple years ago?
How about Horry and Shaq in LA?
How about Horry and Olajuwon in Houston?
How about Dirk and Chandler in Dallas?
Hell, how about Sheed and Ben in Detroit?

What you can't do is just have some tall guy who shoots good. He's gotta D up too. Still, You have to spread the floor for a good offense.

Orlando with Howard and Lewis got mauled in the finals because rashard Lewis got manhandled by pau gasol at the 4. They would have lost earlier if they had played any team with a halfway decent PF before that.

Olajuwon had Otis thorpe next to him at PF the first year. And besides that horry can actually defend his position and play inside.

Dirk is not a stretch four. Holy shut, seriously?

Simply being able to shoot the 3 does not make you a stretch four. That's like calling Laimbeer a stretch four. It's an exclusive specialist that camps out there for 4 quarters for the purpose of spacing because he can't do anything else on offense.

Battier is a stretch four. Novak. Villauneva. Ryan Anderson. Jamison is getting there.

Orlando with Howard and Lewis got mauled in the finals because rashard Lewis got manhandled by pau gasol at the 4. They would have lost earlier if they had played any team with a halfway decent PF before that.

Olajuwon had Otis thorpe next to him at PF the first year. And besides that horry can actually defend his position and play inside.

Dirk is not a stretch four. Holy shut, seriously?

Simply being able to shoot the 3 does not make you a stretch four. That's like calling Laimbeer a stretch four. It's an exclusive specialist that camps out there for 4 quarters for the purpose of spacing because he can't do anything else on offense.

Battier is a stretch four. Novak. Villauneva. Ryan Anderson. Jamison is getting there.

so if a player can defend the 4, he's not a stretch four?
i agree that players who don't defend are overrated. i don't agree with your definition of stretch four though.
dirk was definitely a stretch four to me. he played the four, and he stretched the floor. that's a stretch four. just because he was good doesn't mean you attach a new term to his playing just to say stretch fours aren't good.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretch_Four_(basketball)

lol

Based on that definition, hard to argue that Dirk isn't a stretch four.

A stretch four is a one dimensional shooter playing the 4. Dirk did a lot more than that.

A stretch four is a one dimensional shooter playing the 4. Dirk did a lot more than that.

wow, you're fucking retarded. Your stubbornness is golden. read that link Gla posted.

a stretch four is a player that stretches the floor. it's right in the fucking phrase 'stretch four'. It's not even complicated. Stop masturbating your ego and read. Are you too dumb to comprehend basic English? It's not '4 who can't bang inside', nor is it '4 who can't d up for shit'. It's 'stretch 4', meaning they stretch the opposing defense. That's all the phrase means. All the other shit you're attaching to it is just you being stubborn, stupid and wrong.

PS
Your mother has a syphilitic cunt and your father sucks AIDS out of gloryhole cocks.

Nothing left to say to you. Welcome to the ignore list. You can come out of the corner when you learn to talk like an adult and not a child.

Nothing left to say to you. Welcome to the ignore list. You can come out of the corner when you learn to talk like an adult and not a child.

no. no. no. it's okay.

when i say your mother has a syphilitic cunt, i mean that your mother is a wonderful woman that naturally repels the disease and nastiness away from her while hiding absolutely nothing. When I say your father sucks AIDS out of gloryhole cocks, I mean your father is caring human being with a godlike ability to single handedly take disease from people as he does unspeakable acts while seeking no attention or praise in return as he acts anonymously.

I just figured since we were making up our own language by readjusting the definition of words to be either positive or negative depending on whether they fit our current arguments that I would you pay respect to you, and your parents, in my new language.

PS
When you were born your mom's twat ripped up to her asshole, and you came out covered in shit. Some guy was walking by and he said "Wow, look at that piece of shit in that piece of shit coming out of that piece of shit". Just thought you should know.

Ummm, moving right along...

Dre needs to start and it shouldn't take a genius to work that out.

Maxiell is what he's always been - an under-sized hustle player. We're starting him instead of a potential Franchise big man....

WHY?

Fucking stupid IMO

Ummm, moving right along...

Dre needs to start and it shouldn't take a genius to work that out.

Maxiell is what he's always been - an under-sized hustle player. We're starting him instead of a potential Franchise big man....

WHY?

Fucking stupid IMO
There's a plan in place to develop him. It won't last forever. He's going to start sooner than later.

Even Drummond is saying he's not ready yet. The team is playing better. Be patient.

I picked him up in the Yahoo Fantasy league Glenn and I are in... just waiting for us to unleash Dre before I start using him :)

If memory serves I've used him a couple of times - got 1 dud game out of him but the other few times were reasonable...

From the info I've stumbled across he averaged something like 17 minutes in November, 22 minutes in December... hoping he gets 25 or more in January before we go with 30 minutes the rest of the way.

Dude could be a Fantasy beast (except FTs)... FG%, points, boards, steals and block numbers all look reasonable or very good

I picked him up in the Yahoo Fantasy league Glenn and I are in... just waiting for us to unleash Dre before I start using him :)

If memory serves I've used him a couple of times - got 1 dud game out of him but the other few times were reasonable...

From the info I've stumbled across he averaged something like 17 minutes in November, 22 minutes in December... hoping he gets 25 or more in January before we go with 30 minutes the rest of the way.

Dude could be a Fantasy beast (except FTs)... FG%, points, boards, steals and block numbers all look reasonable or very good

You struck gold there. Drummond has to be close to a perfect fantasy player. His flaws (like over gambling and shit) aren't even covered by fantasy stats. I don't even play fantsy basketball, but he's gotta be close to perect there.

No 3's, shit free throws... far from perfect

Some people seem to forget it's a stat game though and only worry about "names"

Dre potentially is gold for FG%, rebounds and blocks with some steals thrown in... add double digit scoring and the guy is a quality C

Quality C's that board and block a lot of shots are hard to find in Fantasy land.

No 3's, shit free throws... far from perfect

Some people seem to forget it's a stat game though and only worry about "names"

Dre potentially is gold for FG%, rebounds and blocks with some steals thrown in... add double digit scoring and the guy is a quality C

Quality C's that board and block a lot of shots are hard to find in Fantasy land.

rondo doesn't have 3s or free throws going for him either, but i'd take him for fantasy too.

I actually have Rondo as my PG...

Rondo, Leonard, Klay Thompson, Durant, Ibaka, Thad Young, Pau Gasol, Gortat, Drummond, AK47

Obviously need 3's which is why I start Leonard and Thompson... I have Wall, Felton and Evan Turner on the bench

I haven't been part of the 'start Drummond' thing (only 2 posts in this thread!), largely because I figured that there's a larger plan in place (showcasing Maxiell, poor conditioning, etc). Then about a week ago or so I read a byte that said Pistons front office was getting impatient waiting for Frank to start him. Seems troubling on the surface, but the 'report's' veracity seemed a bit questionable.

So does this continue until the trade deadline, or are we close?

I think the trade deadline will tell the tale

Either we move Maxiell and force Frank to play Dre or Frank gets a phone call and is told in no uncertain terms that it's time to play the Towers together

I read an article on ESPN Tru Hoops thing called "The Drummond Experience"... said something about us having a similar plan to Monroe's rookie season. I believe I was absent for much of that season due to the NRL SuperCoach thing...

it says Monroe didn't even start for us until the January of his rookie season... and his minutes were rather low until February...

If this article is correct and if this is the plan with Drummond we're almost there...

FYI: The article claimed Monroe and Drummond had played 85 minutes together in January... and we out-scored our opponents by 25 during those minutes!

Wooooooooooo! :tecmo:

Drummond's FT% as a starter: 14.3%

Ack, fuck this winning shit. SIT DRUMMOND!

Seriously....! Every fucking year!

There is a difference between tanking and losing the right way...

couldn't we have started Slava, CV, Singler, Knight and Stuckey?

using Bynum, English, Middleton and Jerebko off the bench?

Sure, we'd get destroyed but isn't that the point?

FFS! We got lucky with Monroe and Drummond... unless we get lucky in the Lottery we'll be picking closer to 10th! WTF?

http://wagesofwins.com/2013/04/18/no-damian-lillard-isnt-the-rookie-of-the-year/

Has he recovered from his injury? :)

http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2013/04/22/weird-penguin-jokes-from-andre-drummonds-vine-account/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter