4:30 ish.

104-86ish

^ I think thats real close'ish.

Shellacking. Good guys by 22.

4:30 ish.

Or 7:30 ET. I saw this and thought "wait, are they doing an afternoon game because of Black Friday?"

I was tempted to see this at the Palace (just as a game to see during the holiday when I actually have some fucking time), before I realized it was the Craptors.

Yeah, this is WTFDetroit, Tahoe, not WTFSacramento. 7:30.

Yeah, this is WTFDetroit, Tahoe, not WTFSacramento. 7:30.

BURN!

LET'S GO PISTONS!!!!!!

Valanciunas looks soft.

Why is Bargnani going off? 17 first quarter points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc8GUDK-ozU&feature=share&list=PLD642CB60FD2978D4

Yeah, this is WTFDetroit, Tahoe, not WTFSacramento. 7:30.

Bullshit bish, this is my fuckin sandbox. Fuck Gla. Fuck P and Fuck V too.

I'd like to say goodbye to about half this fuckin roster.

Like watching this team when Drummond is on the floor.

Read Goodshill's tweets in Mateen's voice and try not to laugh.

OUR KNIGHT IN SHINING ARMOR!!

That was actually fun.

newsflash, Drummond has earned to play at least 25 min a game, and playing Dre & Moose together gives us the best chance to win! who knew?!

you know shits sad when beating what is arguably the worst team in the league by one point in a home game is supposed to be a sign of progress.

There is no argument. The wizards are far worse than everyone else.

Aside from that, if Monroe and Drummond combine for 30 and 20 on a nightly basis, that's the foundation for a contender down the road. Nba teams do not have that type of size up front.

I don't even know what to think of this?? He doesn't even seem like a coach?

http://www.nba.com/pistons/video/playlist/coaches-corner

His lack of a commanding physical presence aside, I saw nothing wrong with that clip.

His players play hard for him, anyway. That implies they do respect him.

Not "wrong" necessarily but I wouldn't exactly say he had a commanding verbal presence either. He didn't really seem to believe in what he was saying even.

It isn't really about how you say it as much as it is what you say and what you do. Players always speak very highly of frank for his work ethic and his honesty with his teams.

I don't always agree with his decisions, but he is a legit head coach.

There is no argument. The wizards are far worse than everyone else.

Aside from that, if Monroe and Drummond combine for 30 and 20 on a nightly basis, that's the foundation for a contender down the road. Nba teams do not have that type of size up front.
If every other team's front court was Bargs and Val they probably would get close to 30 and 20 nightly. I don't think the NBA is going to get that soft any time soon.
and i'd for what it's worth i'd take WAS over raptors and the pistons. they've been without their two best players all year. Toronto and Detroit are this bad at full strength.

It's obvious that Monroe and Drummond are the foundation. The question is what we put around them

We don't need to sign All NBA level wings to ensure our bigs thrive. A guy that dominates the ball on the perimeter will actually hurt us. We need quality role players, quality shooters, guys that provide the spacing our bigs will need to do their thing.

And after seeing the highlights of Drummond so far this season the future is coming sooner than anyone probably expected. Which makes this coming off-season even more important.

All that said I was pleased to see Knight remain calm at the end of the game. The lay up when he split the D, the 3 pointer... he didn't panic, didn't rush... just took what the defense gave him and nailed it both times.

We don't need to sign All NBA level wings to ensure our bigs thrive. A guy that dominates the ball on the perimeter will actually hurt us. We need quality role players, quality shooters, guys that provide the spacing our bigs will need to do their thing.


I don't know about that. Kobe is awfully ball dominant, and he looked pretty damn good next to Shaq. I'd say the Pistons just need a wing that doesn't suck ass. and that might be interchangeable with a star player.
Also, as good as Monroe and Drummond have looked so far they both need to work on their post game.
That's the thing with the Pistons right now. Even the players that are good aren't really good enough. Everyone on the roster needs to progress a lot. Monroe needs to work on Post offense and Post defense. Drummond needs to work on his jumper, post offense and his awareness. Knight needs to work on his ball handling and his ability to find teammates.
The idea that this core only needs role players to work is a bit crazy to me. The only thing that the team currently has is role players.

Drummond needs to work on free throws, too

You gotta think beyond right here, right now Koolaid

Kobe + Shaq is not a comparison we can make - we're not gonna get a Kobe to come here and neither Monroe or Drummond will be Shaq II

I was thinking more along the lines of San Antonio obviously - the Robinson/Duncan combo.

And yes we do have a lot of role players. That's not really a bad thing unless our bigs don't improve the way we expect them to

San Antonio is the model I'm looking at too.

You gotta think beyond right here, right now Koolaid

Kobe + Shaq is not a comparison we can make - we're not gonna get a Kobe to come here and neither Monroe or Drummond will be Shaq II

I was thinking more along the lines of San Antonio obviously - the Robinson/Duncan combo.

And yes we do have a lot of role players. That's not really a bad thing unless our bigs don't improve the way we expect them to
You're saying the Pistons won't get Kobe and telling me to look into the future. The future doesn't have Kobe Bryant in it. Why can't the Pistons get a damn good wing?
Guards are going to have the ball in their hands either way. san antonio was no different. I'm sure if you think a bit about teams that have been successful with a ball dominant guard guard you'd see a lot of similar traits between those big guys and the current Detroit bigs. An all-star ball dominant guard isn't going to hurt the team. that's borderline lunacy. neither big men are really that efficient, but they definitely will be crashing the fuck out of the boards. It's ideal to have an elite level scorer on the wing. Isn't it?
also, i personally don't expect much growth from the players, with the exception of Drummond. I'm guessing you think Monroe and Drummond will become elite level scorers who need more touches, but I just can't get behind that statement.

This is a bit silly. There's only one Kobe Bryant. San Antonio has won 4 championships without a Kobe Bryant.

Knight has a very realistic chance of being tony Parker. Monroe probably will never be Tim Duncan, but he can play the role admirably on tv. Drummond could be anywhere in David robinsons neighborhood.

Implying that knight doesn't have much growth left is lunacy. He hasn't even played a full 82 games yet in his career and he's what, 20?

Now, this team absolutely needs a Manu type guard, which is a lot more realistic goal than a Kobe type guard. We could use an unselfish scoring guard that will score a quiet 20 for you when you need it, and also can do the little things.

Is Kobe Bryant THE best guard of the last decade?

You think we can get someone like that via free agency or in the Draft?

We have millions and millions of cap space coming our way after this season...and our 2014 pick will likely go to Charlotte. So next off-season is it... and unless we're extremely lucky we're not getting that dominant wing through the 2013 Draft, not that I know much about these college dudes - just using everything Ive read that says the 2013 Draft is weak

And unless you plan to save the vast majority of that cap space for a later time and date for a player yet to be determined... and if you do save it you're gambling on this player actually choosing to sign with Detroit... you're gambling that this outstanding player doesn't get a MAX extension from his current team.

IF you believe we won't save the vast majority of our cap space for a later time and date for a player yet to be determined then you have to look at the league right now and find your guy - find the guy that will compliment Monroe, Drummond and Knight. The problem there is that you're signing or trading for a player to compliment players that are not yet "finished" products... which is why you compare what we hope to become with successful teams from tha past and steal their ideas... if it worked previously it will work in the future...

The best case scenario for us is the San Antonio Spurs Robinson/Duncan teams. Like it or not the are the blueprint we should be looking at.

And IF you believe Knight could become Tony Parker-like then you would be looking for a Manu-type. It's not rocket science. I'm sitting here watching Into the Universe with Stephen Hawking and this episode is about Time Travel... holy fucking shit! Talking about some super train circling the Earth over and over again so it approaches the speed of light! Would have to go around the Earth 7 times per second lol Spped of Light isn't possible, but if we got close on boards that train would slow down... imaging you were on that train. If you ran 3 feet are you fastest man in the history of history? No.. cause time slows down on that train...

lots more detail than that... cause if that train continued for 1 year at that speed 100 years would pass on Earth! BOOM! Time Travel bitches! Talking about the Hadron Collider now where they've actually had particles "time travel" because usually those particles last some insignificant amount of time... yet going through the collider they last 30 times longer...

anyway a Manu type. Spurs are the model. Saying we should look to acquire the next Kobe is all well and good but try doing that. I'd rather we acquire the next Jordan... but unless time travel is invented we won't know who or when or where that player is

Stuckey was really supposed to be that guy to...shame he blew his chance.

On the plus side, we unearthed a quality role player and Tayshaun's eventual replacement in Singler.

Really, it's not out of the realm of possibility that our starting 5 of the future is already here in Drummond, Monroe, Singler, English and Knight. The latter three can all defend and shoot with deep range.

I could see our best scoring guard coming off the bench when Monroe takes a breather and we need to open the offense up a bit.

Is Kobe Bryant THE best guard of the last decade?

You think we can get someone like that via free agency or in the Draft?

We have millions and millions of cap space coming our way after this season...and our 2014 pick will likely go to Charlotte. So next off-season is it... and unless we're extremely lucky we're not getting that dominant wing through the 2013 Draft, not that I know much about these college dudes - just using everything Ive read that says the 2013 Draft is weak

And unless you plan to save the vast majority of that cap space for a later time and date for a player yet to be determined... and if you do save it you're gambling on this player actually choosing to sign with Detroit... you're gambling that this outstanding player doesn't get a MAX extension from his current team.

IF you believe we won't save the vast majority of our cap space for a later time and date for a player yet to be determined then you have to look at the league right now and find your guy - find the guy that will compliment Monroe, Drummond and Knight. The problem there is that you're signing or trading for a player to compliment players that are not yet "finished" products... which is why you compare what we hope to become with successful teams from tha past and steal their ideas... if it worked previously it will work in the future...

The best case scenario for us is the San Antonio Spurs Robinson/Duncan teams. Like it or not the are the blueprint we should be looking at.

And IF you believe Knight could become Tony Parker-like then you would be looking for a Manu-type. It's not rocket science. I'm sitting here watching Into the Universe with Stephen Hawking and this episode is about Time Travel... holy fucking shit! Talking about some super train circling the Earth over and over again so it approaches the speed of light! Would have to go around the Earth 7 times per second lol Spped of Light isn't possible, but if we got close on boards that train would slow down... imaging you were on that train. If you ran 3 feet are you fastest man in the history of history? No.. cause time slows down on that train...

lots more detail than that... cause if that train continued for 1 year at that speed 100 years would pass on Earth! BOOM! Time Travel bitches! Talking about the Hadron Collider now where they've actually had particles "time travel" because usually those particles last some insignificant amount of time... yet going through the collider they last 30 times longer...

anyway a Manu type. Spurs are the model. Saying we should look to acquire the next Kobe is all well and good but try doing that. I'd rather we acquire the next Jordan... but unless time travel is invented we won't know who or when or where that player is

getting a kobe, or a manu , type player next year is going to be next to impossible. it's going to take time. there is no quick fix for this team. just because the shit's out of reach doesn't mean it's not needed though. Eventually a good guard will come through the draft, and with pistons sucking as bad as they do they'll have a decent chance at grabbing him because they're going to be bad team until they do get him.
i'm not going to lie to myself about the current player's skill levels and make hefty projections for where i think they'll end up to feel better about watching them. Before we start talking about looking for a parker or a manu, how about we realize that we don't have a fucking Duncan? I like Monroe, but Duncan was a better scorer who also brought dominant defense. They are not that similar at all really. Monroe is a good player, but a sub.500 big man with average-weak paint protection just isn't a smart candidate for catering the around defensively or offensively.

Nobody said Monroe was Duncan 2.0. He isn't the shot blocker Duncan was, or the low post player Duncan was.

He has the capability to be a poor man's version, though, and he is certainly good enough to be an offensive focal point.

If Monroe can develop his mid range game, he can become a 20+ ppg scorer, along with the assists and the rebounds.

Something you have to keep in mind: This team is not playing the way it was constructed to be played. Monroe is putting up all star numbers playing out of position at center. Drummond, who is arguably the 2nd be player on the team right now, is playing all of 15 minutes a game and coming off the bench, and most of his time has been as Monroe's backup, not his teammate. We have a rookie small forward that we're starting out of position at shooting guard out of necessity. Our 2nd year point guard hasn't even come close to maxing out his potential yet with all the poor fits around him.

That's not even to mention Kim English, who has the potential to be a starter on this team but has been pushed back to the bench by all the veterans ahead of him.

There are also a lot of poor fits (Stuckey, Bynum, Maggette, Maxiell) currently eating up minutes that will not be on this team going forward. Tayshaun Prince is a good fit but he's taking up Singler's eventual spot.

Just because this team is currently 3-10 with the same roster does not mean they will look remotely the same, even a year from now. There's a lot of promise on this team, and it starts up front with a duo that could be the best frontcourt in the entire league in a few years time. Their ceiling is that high.

I absolutely see the individual talent and the possibility for something special with Knight, Drummond, and Monroe. I do not believe we need a superstar scoring guard to come and save us. What we need most is to rid this roster of all the guys that don't fit, maybe find a scoring guard that fits the roster, and let our young talent grow together.

For the record, I think Andre Drummond will be a superstar within 5 years. Not just an all star, but a superstar. He's the most physically gifted Pistons rookie I've seen in my lifetime after Grant Hill, and he's only 19.

All that being said, I do not believe we are going to have a great season, but that's not a reflection of the talent level on this team. They are simply waiting to get rid of all the dead weight.

It's unlike any Pistons season I've ever seen. We put in crap performances every other game, but I'm usually not upset over it, because it feels like a means to an end. Unlike previous years, it doesn't feel like we don't have the talent to compete. We just don't have the chemistry or the experience.

I can see them playing next year with a starting 5 comprised of players already on this team and winning 40-50 games.

I agree with almost all of that Kstat

Koolaid - it would be nice to get a Kobe or a Manu type through the Draft sometime soon - but how long are you willing to tank? You can't sit on cap space forever and you can't expect our youth to stick around if we're not even attemtping to put together a reasonable team.

Our time is now - next off-season. That's it, for better or worse that is when Joe has to put the "finishing" touches on this roster. We shouldn't be waiting for another season or 2!

I believe that if we sign a quality big man and a quality wing we'll have a much, much better team next season. IMO we don't need a superstar wing - we need guys that can play some D, drain 3's and not be a waste of money out there. Maggette, Stuckey, Bynum... dudes couldn't hit shoot if Vince Russo demanded it! They are that bad from long range that good defenses sag back and destroy any chance Monroe has inside... yet Monroe is putting up All-Star numbers almost every night.

Get some fucking shooters and give the man some space down low! Unleash Drummond, let the kid go to work! Singler, Jerebko and English (not enough playing time IMO for me to declare him a future starter) are reasonable role players... so we'll be fine if we can fix other areas.

And those areas should be obvious to all those that have seen a few games, like me :)

Beyond Drummond and Monroe we don't have a single big man I want playing minutes at the 4/5. Maxiell tries hard but the dude just isn't what we need. Jerebko is better suited to SF IMO

With Tayshaun, Singler, Jerebko and English on board we have some nice players on the wing... but no one that is "good" enough

Knight is fine... it's his 2nd year. He's adjusting to his role and the league and has several shitty players around him AND a shit Coach.

One PF/C, one quality wing... and I think we look so much better next season that all this doom and gloom stuff is a distant memory

I agree with almost all of that Kstat

Koolaid - it would be nice to get a Kobe or a Manu type through the Draft sometime soon - but how long are you willing to tank? You can't sit on cap space forever and you can't expect our youth to stick around if we're not even attemtping to put together a reasonable team.


the youth is the team right now. that's the issue. You don't want to tank anymore? Then you need to consider the possibility that these youngsters you're counting on being the saviors of the franchise are simply not going to cut it. You're counting on their progression as being the solution to tanking. Is that really going to happen that quickly? Will every one of them end up being as good as you're hoping?

This is how I see the future of these players...
Brandon Knight = Mo Williams
Greg Monroe = C-Webb (less athletic)
Andre Drummond = I have no clue, but his potential is clearly high as fuck and it's definitely going to take awhile.


Also, we gotta stop blaming the coach every damn time. The guys who sucked under Curry, sucked under Kuester, and now they suck under Frank. Each time people point their fingers at the coach. Wake the fuck up. Is Frank the best coach in the league? Hell no, but more importantly the team fucking sucks. Some folks online have said that if the Pistons had a good coach they'd be in the playoff hunt. Those people are fucking retarded.

I can't think of a guard in the NBA knight is less like than mo Williams. Monroe plays roughly the same role as webber, but they play the game very differently as well.

Also, you do not draft players with the idea that the aren't gong to cut it. Ether they do or they dont, but the one thing you do nit do with a 20 year old lottery pick is start buying your team around the idea that they're gong to fail.

I can't think of a guard in the NBA knight is less like than mo Williams. Monroe plays roughly the same role as webber, but they play the game very differently as well.

Also, you do not draft players with the idea that the aren't gong to cut it. Ether they do or they dont, but the one thing you do nit do with a 20 year old lottery pick is start buying your team around the idea that they're gong to fail.

how are mo williams and knight different? Just saying they're different isn't enough for me. they're both outside shooters who can drive inside while doing a mediocre job distributing the ball. prove me wrong.

and what are we calling failure? If your lottery pick isn't a superstar are they failures? I don't think that's true at all.

We drafted knight, Monroe and Drummond to be our franchise cornerstones. anything less than that means things didn't work out as planned.

Knight is at least 2-3 inches taller than mo Williams. Knight is a far better scorer at the rim than mo Williams. Knight is a solid defender and mo is an awful one. Knight is pretty good on the glass for a pg and mo is just average.

We drafted knight, Monroe and Drummond to be our franchise cornerstones. anything less than that means things didn't work out as planned.

Knight is at least 2-3 inches taller than mo Williams. Knight is a far better scorer at the rim than mo Williams. Knight is a solid defender and mo is an awful one. Knight is pretty good on the glass for a pg and mo is just average.

Well, that's just kind of silly. If that were the case then no one would ever trade their young players, and every traded player would be a 'failure'. When players are drafted, they're always drafted in the hopes they'll be a franchise cornerstone. It doesn't mean that the players should be viewed as untouchable, it means that they should be viewed with more value than an equally skilled veteran in a trade. Most of these young players don't reach their supposed potential though. When they put on your home team's jersey that doesn't change. Pinning all of the team's success onto the development of a few young guys isn't putting them in a light to succeed as much as it's taking an entire franchise and playing roulette with it.

As for the Mo Williams and Brandon Knight comparison, Williams currently shoots a higher percentage and dishes more assists. When Williams was young, he actually averaged more rebounds than knight. I don't see either raising hell defensively. For some reason whenever any player is liked by someone they somehow become a good defender in that person's mind. I think it's because defense is something that can't necessarily be attributed to statistics. So far Knight has played in 79 games. Can you think of 10 key defensive moments he was responsible for? If not then he's not a high-quality defensive player, it's that simple. I don't know where the idea that Knight is better at the rim comes from, because neither seem to attack that often. If you got some sort of stat that proves that wrong feel free to share it. The fact Knight is a couple inches taller doesn't mean much really, when those extra inches don't change his actual game. No two players are identical, but this does look like Knight's projection to me.

I didn't say knight raises hell defensively. I'm saying mo Williams is atrocious defensively.

As for a key defensive moment for knight, in his massive 80-game nba career, Id have to go all the way back to last Friday, where he forced Kyle Lowry into a tough shot on the last play of the game.

Knight for his age is a very good defender. Point guards take years just to not become liabilities defensively. Knight defended well as a 19 year old rookie. He plays the pick and roll extremely well, he rebounds on the defensive end, and he's very good at being physical without fouling.

If I'm calling knight a good defender, that's because he is. He isn't an elite all nba defender yet,cut he's well in track to becoming one as he gets older and stronger.

Tony Parker has been knights upside to me since the pistons drafted him. Much, much better comparison than mo Williams, who gets exposed defensively and shrinks in playoff games.

As for the young player bust thing, you're not paying attention to what I said. I said knight, Monroe and Drummond were drafted for the purpose of being franchise cornerstones. We didn't draft singler, or Daye, or English or Middleton with that in mind. The team is being built with knight, Monroe and Drummond as our "big 3" of the future. They're the foundation. If they don't live up to those expectations, then they will indeed be disappointments, because the house will crumble no matter what we have around them.

I find it funny that we're supposed to view Monroe and Drummond especially as non-cornerstones. Quality bigs are hard to find - we might have 2!

We certainly have 1 and should be doing everything we can to build a team around him. You don't sit there and think "Monroe ain't all that - I'm gonna plan around a player we don't have on the roster - a Kobe type - and hope one day we get him"

We have Knight. We have Monroe. We have Drummond. For better or worse you build around them and hope it works. If it don't you start again. That's the nature of the beast.

Fuck sitting there and saying they're not worth building around. You gotta start somewhere and Monroe, Drummond and Knight is a better place to start than Stuckey...

I didn't say knight raises hell defensively. I'm saying mo Williams is atrocious defensively.

As for a key defensive moment for knight, in his massive 80-game nba career, Id have to go all the way back to last Friday, where he forced Kyle Lowry into a tough shot on the last play of the game.

Knight for his age is a very good defender. Point guards take years just to not become liabilities defensively. Knight defended well as a 19 year old rookie. He plays the pick and roll extremely well, he rebounds on the defensive end, and he's very good at being physical without fouling.

If I'm calling knight a good defender, that's because he is. He isn't an elite all nba defender yet,cut he's well in track to becoming one as he gets older and stronger.

Tony Parker has been knights upside to me since the pistons drafted him. Much, much better comparison than mo Williams, who gets exposed defensively and shrinks in playoff games.

As for the young player bust thing, you're not paying attention to what I said. I said knight, Monroe and Drummond were drafted for the purpose of being franchise cornerstones. We didn't draft singler, or Daye, or English or Middleton with that in mind. The team is being built with knight, Monroe and Drummond as our "big 3" of the future. They're the foundation. If they don't live up to those expectations, then they will indeed be disappointments, because the house will crumble no matter what we have around them.
How do you know anything about how Brandon Knight performs in the playoffs? Do you not see how you're giving him hometown optimism?

Tony Parker was never a shooter. Brandon Knight is a shooter. That alone makes them noticeably different. Parker was also the one of the most prolific scorers in the paint. Do you honestly see anything in Knight's game that suggests he will one of the best finishers in the league, or do you see more evidence of him being an outside shooter who can drive now and then? I'd be astonished if Brandon Knight is ever leading the league in points in the paint the way Parker did was upon a time.

I find it funny that we're supposed to view Monroe and Drummond especially as non-cornerstones. Quality bigs are hard to find - we might have 2!

We certainly have 1 and should be doing everything we can to build a team around him. You don't sit there and think "Monroe ain't all that - I'm gonna plan around a player we don't have on the roster - a Kobe type - and hope one day we get him"

We have Knight. We have Monroe. We have Drummond. For better or worse you build around them and hope it works. If it don't you start again. That's the nature of the beast.

Fuck sitting there and saying they're not worth building around. You gotta start somewhere and Monroe, Drummond and Knight is a better place to start than Stuckey...
Who the fuck said we should plan around people we don't have? I'm saying if we want to win, we've clearly already done that. I'm sure you're smart enough to realize that this team, as constructed, is not beating a god damned thing. Either changes need to be made to the roster, or players need to become much better. How many young guys grow that much though? The only team I can think of that used their youth is Oklahoma. Oklahoma's kids came into the league much better than the Piston's kids though. How long would it take Detroit? Is that more effective than trades and free agency? In the next couple years do you think the Pistons could sign, trade or draft a player who is already just as good or better than Brandon Knight will be in his peak?

Every team with two young bigs has a shot at having two quality big guys. Utah has a bunch of them right now.

How do you know anything about how Brandon Knight performs in the playoffs? Do you not see how you're giving him hometown optimism?

Tony Parker was never a shooter. Brandon Knight is a shooter. That alone makes them noticeably different. Parker was also the one of the most prolific scorers in the paint. Do you honestly see anything in Knight's game that suggests he will one of the best finishers in the league, or do you see more evidence of him being an outside shooter who can drive now and then? I'd be astonished if Brandon Knight is ever leading the league in points in the paint the way Parker did was upon a time.

Once again, you're missing the point.

My point about the playoffs is that teams will always pick on the weak defender and expose him. Mo Williams is and will always will be a terrible defender, and it cost the cavs two finals berths.

Knight is actually ahead of the crave defensively. And his finishing ability at the rim is excellent. His issue is needing a stronger handle, and I'm comfortable with his work ethic.

As for him ever leading the nba in points in the paint, he doesn't need to do that to be Tony Parker. You're taking the comparison too literally.

Who the fuck said we should plan around people we don't have? I'm saying if we want to win, we've clearly already done that. I'm sure you're smart enough to realize that this team, as constructed, is not beating a god damned thing. Either changes need to be made to the roster, or players need to become much better. How many young guys grow that much though? The only team I can think of that used their youth is Oklahoma. Oklahoma's kids came into the league much better than the Piston's kids though. How long would it take Detroit? Is that more effective than trades and free agency? In the next couple years do you think the Pistons could sign, trade or draft a player who is already just as good or better than Brandon Knight will be in his peak?

Every team with two young bigs has a shot at having two quality big guys. Utah has a bunch of them right now.

Youre ignoring the fact even this current team hasn't played its ideal rotation as of yet.

What's worse is your implication that young players either come into the nba stars, or they don't. that couldn't be any further from the truth.

Even Monroe has plenty of room to grow, to say nothing of knight and Drummond, who combined have barey played one full nba season between them.

If that were the case then no one would ever trade their young players, and every traded player would be a 'failure'. When players are drafted, they're always drafted in the hopes they'll be a franchise cornerstone. It doesn't mean that the players should be viewed as untouchable, it means that they should be viewed with more value than an equally skilled veteran in a trade. Most of these young players don't reach their supposed potential though. When they put on your home team's jersey that doesn't change. Pinning all of the team's success onto the development of a few young guys isn't putting them in a light to succeed as much as it's taking an entire franchise and playing roulette with it.

I don't view anyone, ANYONE on this roster as untouchable... but I do view Monroe and Drummond as "highly unlikely to be traded". Simply due to their salaries it would be hard to deal them for equal value


I'm sure you're smart enough to realize that this team, as constructed, is not beating a god damned thing. Either changes need to be made to the roster, or players need to become much better. How many young guys grow that much though? The only team I can think of that used their youth is Oklahoma. Oklahoma's kids came into the league much better than the Piston's kids though. How long would it take Detroit? Is that more effective than trades and free agency? In the next couple years do you think the Pistons could sign, trade or draft a player who is already just as good or better than Brandon Knight will be in his peak?

Every team with two young bigs has a shot at having two quality big guys. Utah has a bunch of them right now.

Yes, I am smart enough to realise that this team, as constructed, isn't beating anyone of note. Changes WILL be made - this coming off-season. We could have more than $26 million in cap space if we let every expiring walk and amnesty Nova. What we do with all that space is the key to the future. Not everything hinges on Monroe, Drummond and Knight.

Besides, Monroe doesn't need to grow all that much to become "better" - small improvements across the board will result in a much better player. And he will improve a little in several areas simply because of experience. Drummond will improve. He has all the tools except experience and that takes time. Knight? I'm not as high on him as some others but he's in his 2nd season. Will he be as good as Parker or Rondo or Westrbook or Paul? Not IMO. But does he have to be?

While I agree that "hometown" fans seem to over-rate their own players I don't think we do that a lot here - we're much more realistic. Are we excited about our youth? I should hope so. Are we foolish enough to think Monroe is the next Duncan, Drummond is the next Dwight Howard and Knight is the next Westrbook? No fucking way.

In the discussions around the place the focus seems to be on who we could add to those 3 that would put us in a much better position. No one is thinking J.J Redick makes us a title team. No one is that high on our youth that they think a MLE type of player is going to get us over the hump.

$26 million should bring an impact player - the question remains: who would provide us with the most help while complimenting our current core?

Even when we're tossing around names and ideas you can't just pretend that we're going to sign THE best free agent regardless of how that fits with what we have and then begin building around that guy. That's not gonna happen with Joe. He's gonna get someone that compliments what we already have... and someone that fits into what he HOPES he will become.

I think I've said it before but: This coming off-season - IMO - is about building a bridge to the future. Our youth are not finished products but you can't sit back and wait for them to get the polish they need... you gotta build on them now. So whomever we sign/trade for needs to be able to at least partially carry us in some respects... for at least another 2-4 years (depending on how our youth develop).

Koolaid - I don't think anyone thinks we're a playoff team as currently constructed - or could be a quality team simply by adding bits and pieces. We need an impact player. I think everyone realises that. The question is WHO? Who can we get with all that space that can not only make a significant different next season - but can make that difference UNTIL Drummond and Monroe are polished

As for him ever leading the nba in points in the paint, he doesn't need to do that to be Tony Parker. You're taking the comparison too literally.
So Mo Williams is to blame for the Cavs? That's odd. I could've sworn it was the big guys.

If you weren't talking about Parker's scoring in the paint what were you talking about? Outside of his beastly job getting layups and floaters to fall he really didn't do anything that great to my knowledge. What am I missing?

What's worse is your implication that young players either come into the nba stars, or they don't. that couldn't be any further from the truth.

That's not what i'm implying. I'm saying that MOST stars are stars upon entering the league. To rely on the development of the youth exclusively is foolish, because more often than not they do not end up nearly as great as people thought they would.
Basically, for every Rondo there's Stuckey, Jonny Flynn, Jerryd Bayless, TJ Ford, Louis Williams, and countless others . For every Andrew Bynum, there's Hashem Thabeet, Darko Milicic, Kwame Brown and Eddy Curry. Then there's slowly developing players Jermaine O'Neal and Tyson Chandler who never even end up shining brightly for the team that drafted them. Right now the pistons have all of their eggs in this basket. Are you applauding that?

All their eggs in the basket marked "slowly developing"? Is that what you're saying?

All their eggs in the basket marked "slowly developing"? Is that what you're saying?
Yes. Also, if the Pistons future success relies on the growth of the young kids, then future success is unlikely.

Define success... IF we're talking championships then yep, success is unlikely. If we're talking long term playoff team I think success is very possible

and I think most people would say Monroe is damn good right here, right now.

Do you put Monroe in the "slowly developing" basket?

Define success... IF we're talking championships then yep, success is unlikely. If we're talking long term playoff team I think success is very possible

and I think most people would say Monroe is damn good right here, right now.

Do you put Monroe in the "slowly developing" basket?

No, I think Monroe is pretty much done developing. He might gain muscle or work on his jumper, but that's a really slim chance of that happening. His biggest weakness is his inability to be a defensive anchor, and that isn't likely to ever change. He's still a damn good player though. He rebounds very good, might be the best passing big man in the league, and he might be the best big guy in the league at swiping the ball as well. If he gains muscle to post more frequently and finish stronger he might end up being a legit first option, but again that's extremely unlikely. On this team he should be the first option by default (and I think he is).

The real question is whether he could be a cognitive piece in an elite team. His game is good, but it's a little awkward. He doesn't do a lot of things a big guy should do, so what would Monroe need? He would need a defensive anchor with great post defense as well to cover what he can't do defensively. It would also be nice if the guy could shoot to spread the floor for Monroe as well. Greg isn't a threat outside of the paint, so that shooting big guy might be needed for him. Monroe's ideal front court teammate would basically be a prime Rasheed Wallace with even better shot blocking ability. The problem is I don't know if that player will ever exist, so it's a dilemma.

TL;DR... I think Monroe is done developing. He's good, but he's flawed where his position shouldn't be.

When I'm talking success, I'm talking championship contention. Chicago (with Rose), Miami, Brooklyn, and NY are the teams in the east that look like they are capable of winning it all this year. Atlanta is close to moving into that category with some progression from Teague or some trading. Next year, Philadelphia will likely move into that list provided Andrew Bynum is healthy.

Do the Pistons have a shot at the playoffs even though? Eh, not a great one. I'd say Charlotte actually has just as good, if not better, of a shot. If we're counting on Knight and Drummond to lead the way, then why can't MKG, K.Walker, BJ Mullens and Biyombo? Why can't Toronto with DeRozan, Davis and Valawhateverthefuckhisnameis? Why can't Cleveland with Waiters, Irving, Thompson and Zeller?

The good teams don't seem to be going anywhere anytime soon either. Boston is quickly meeting father time and NY is stacked with older veteran guys, but that's about it. Miami, Brooklyn, Chicago, Atlanta, Philadelphia and Milwaukee aren't going to be worse than Detroit anytime soon.

TL;DR... Without a serious roster change I'd put the Pistons chance at the playoffs as doubtful.

I think serious roster changes will happen this coming off-season... and Drummond might be the defensive anchor you speak of.

Could this team contend for a playoff spot as is? Not IMO. That's why I'm hoping for significant change this off-season

BTW, I don't rate Atlanta, Milwaukee, Charlotte or Toronto "ahead" of us - but conceed they are just as likely as we are to turn it around within 3 years

Players like Ed Davis, BJ mullins, Tyler zeller and Tritan Thompson don't rate on the same talent scale as Monroe, knight or Drummond. There's a talent evaluation issue on your end if you're seriously putting those guys in the same class as prospects.

not to mention, Drummond and Monroe potentially being a twin towers frontline is a special possibility that the other teams don't have.

Your comment about monroes jumper is also way off base. He's improved it every year.

On a side note, Cleveland would be a lot further along if kyrie Irving wasn't made of glass. He the closest thing to isiah Thomas I've seen in 20 years but it doesn't matter if he can't stay on the floor.

The cavs bombed the Thompson pick, and I think no matter what waiters does that they will wish they had taken Drummond.

Players like Ed Davis, BJ mullins, Tyler zeller and Tritan Thompson don't rate on the same talent scale as Monroe, knight or Drummond. There's a talent evaluation issue on your end if you're seriously putting those guys in the same class as prospects.

First of all, if Knight is still a prospect who's improving, than so is Tristan Thompson. You think Brandon Knight, a jump shooter that does not get many assists (like Mo Williams), is going to evolve into something like Tony Parker without the great paint production (still waiting for you to explain that). Somewhere there's probably a Cleveland fan who is saying something like "Thompson is going to become like Ben Wallace without the amazing defense". If you ask me, you're both incredibly naive.
who cares as to who's better prospects? they have teamates too. everybody you've named has young teammates that were selected in front of drummond, knight and monroe. In fact, those teams are stacked with young dudes. They don't need to be better than their individual match-up anymore than Mario Chalmers needs to be better than Rondo and Rose.


not to mention, Drummond and Monroe potentially being a twin towers frontline is a special possibility that the other teams don't have.

Yup. There's that key word again, POTENTIAL. You can root for the science fiction future version of the team if you'd like. Personally, I like my fiction away from sports. I'd rather like the to succeed in the real world where

Your comment about monroes jumper is also way off base. He's improved it every year.
Really? Then why doesn't he shoot them more? And how come when he does shoot them he misses them?

The cavs bombed the Thompson pick, and I think no matter what waiters does that they will wish they had taken Drummond.

So ten games into the season and you're already saying that Waiters was a mistake over a guy who can't beat out Jason Maxiell for minutes? You say it's too early to say Knight is going to be this type of player, but you'll dismiss Thompson quick as fuck huh? That's what we used to call homerism.

Again, if you think Drummond isn't beating Jason maxiell in terms of production (he has the highest PER of any rookie in the entire league), you're not paying attention at all.

Frank is holding him back until mid season, same as he did with knight last year. Drummond is easiy the best defensive player and rebounder on the team already. Frank is simply trying to ease him in.

Thompson just isn't a star type talent. Neither is waiters. I had that opinion of them when they were still in college, so there's no homerism there, just like I had the opinion that Drummond could be a future superstar before I even knew the pistons had a shot a drafting him. I thought knight was special when I saw him in college as well.

Btw, I'm not alone in any if those opinions. The consensus evaluation around the nba is that the cavs relied too heavily on advanced metrics and missed the very obvious picks of valanciunas in 2011 and Drummond in 2012. Neither waiters nor Thompson have the talent to be all stars. They are both good bets to become solid players, but you don't look for a solid player with a top 5 pick.

Really? Then why doesn't he shoot them more? And how come when he does shoot them he misses them?

...and yet, he is taking more of them. It's why his scoring is up and his FG% is down a bit. He isn't just settling for the close shots anymore.

I really think if you'd just start paying attention to the games, maybe we could have a more informed conversation. I'm not even sure you've seen more than 1 or 2 pistons games this season, going on your comments.

Oh, and btw, if you had watched the game last night, you'd have seen my point about knights defense. He put Lillard in his pocket and never let him out.

Again, if you think Drummond isn't beating Jason maxiell in terms of production (he has the highest PER of any rookie in the entire league), you're not paying attention at all.

Frank is holding him back until mid season, same as he did with knight last year. Drummond is easiy the best defensive player and rebounder on the team already. Frank is simply trying to ease him in.

Thompson just isn't a star type talent. Neither is waiters. I had that opinion of them when they were still in college, so there's no homerism there, just like I had the opinion that Drummond could be a future superstar before I even knew the pistons had a shot a drafting him. I thought knight was special when I saw him in college as well.

Btw, I'm not alone in any if those opinions. The consensus evaluation around the nba is that the cavs relied too heavily on advanced metrics and missed the very obvious picks of valanciunas in 2011 and Drummond in 2012. Neither waiters nor Thompson have the talent to be all stars. They are both good bets to become solid players, but you don't look for a solid player with a top 5 pick.
Knight was held back?
Drummond isn't extremely raw because his PER is high, but cleveland relies too heavily on advanced metrics?
in both cases it's the coaches fault?
funny. i remember hearing the same shit about darko, stuckey and daye. i guess somethings never change.
btw, how is knight like parker if you don't expect knight to beast in the paint? You still haven't answered that.

i'm not going to lie. i missed that blazers game. i'm pretty confident in my sample size of all the other games i watched him play so far though. i also strongly doubt that knight was the reason lillard was bricking 3 balls. you're free to believe whatever you want though, just to be too surprised if shit don't work out like you think it will.

Advanced metrics have their value. Problem is you can't use them as your entire base.

For instance, me saying that drummonds PER makes him a shoe in for rookie of the year would be idiotic. I'm only using it to show that he's currenty outperforming maxiell.

Drummond, to anyone with two functional eyes, has been extremely good in his limited minutes this season. You don't even need to have an eye for scouting to see that.

Also, I never claimed Daye or darko or Stuckey were going to be stars. I'm pretty good at talent evaluation. I was raving about singlers potential as a glue guy last year back when I was watching him play for real Madrid.

I take it you didn't see knight destroy the blazers in the paint last night either....yes he hit some threes but he had a ton of layups and floaters in the lane, including me off balance left handed scoop I still can't believe he pulled off.

i've missed one game. i watched monroe earlier this season attempt jumpers. i watched him miss them, and i watched the pistons lose every game. i watched him stop shooting them, and i saw hig fg% start to go up. were you watching or just pretending monroe made a shot everytime he let the ball fly?

i'm not going to lie. i missed that blazers game. i'm pretty confident in my sample size of all the other games i watched him play so far though. i also strongly doubt that knight was the reason lillard was bricking 3 balls. you're free to believe whatever you want though, just to be too surprised if shit don't work out like you think it will.

Your sample size most likely featured rotations the pistons won't use for the rest of the season, so good luck with that.

Also, knight has been a different player the last 3 games as opposed to the first 11. I doubt we will see that player again anytime soon either. When he's looking to attack, he's special.

i've missed one game. i watched monroe earlier this season attempt jumpers. i watched him miss them, and i watched the pistons lose every game. i watched him stop shooting them, and i saw hig fg% start to go up. were you watching or just pretending monroe made a shot everytime he let the ball fly?

He's making them better now than he was to start the season. He couldn't make free throws then either. The pistons were also using a terrible rotation that was more to blame for the losing than Monroe's jumper.

..and since you missed it, here you go....

Half of Knight's 28 points came on layups, floaters or FTs from getting fouled at the rim.

7f6S8wWa0Hw

anyone with eyes can also see drummond is lost on the court. he's relying entirely on his size and athleticism. he has no scoring capability at all, and even though his athleticism and size make him a good defender he still does dumb shit on that end as well. straight up, he is a freak athlete who is raw as fuck. If the pistons weren't such a bad team with absolutely no one in the paint this whole thing about him starting wouldn't even be said by folks.

i don't know if you claimed darko, stuckey or daye would be stars, but many did. your reasoning and excuses is identical. are you claiming knight and drummond will be stars because they'll get much better and they've been fucked with by their coach? if so, you're in that same boat whether you like it or not.

and knight made a tricky lay-up and some floaters? cool. did you know that mo williams, jason terry never make lay-ups? my comparison was way off. i guess he really will be leading the league in points in the paint soon just like the dude you're trying to say he'll be like. i'm looking forward to that. after watching the highlight reel for this blazers game i also noticed his lockdown d on lillard. apparently knights lockdown d is so damn good he can make it look like the guy is missing open shots. dude's a real houdini.

he's making them more or he's shooting them less?
don't ignore the truth just because it doesn't support your argument.

Dwight Howard has been in the nba for 9 seasons and he still relies mainly on size and athleticism.

when you're bigger, stronger, faster than everyone else, you can be productive regardless.

he's making them more or he's shooting them less?
don't ignore the truth just because it doesn't support your argument.

He's actually taking just as many, or close to it.

The truth is you simply aren't very good at player evaluation. Now you're just mindlessly ranting because you've painted yourself into a corner that you can't escape from.

Whether or not anyone else called stckey or Daye a bust is irrelevant to me. The difference is I'm a lot better at evaluating talent than everyone else. I'm nt perfect by any stretch, but when I say Drummond, Monroe and knight could be the core of a championship contender down the road, I mean it, and I'm very confident that I'm right. I don't give out that praise lightly.

Who did I not want, under any circumstances on draft day? Thompson and waiters. Again, we're fortunate the cavs are run by imbeciles.

The pistons lucked out and landed top-3 talents at the 7th, 8th, and 9th picks in the draft. I didn't think we'd have a shot at any of them on draft day. My evaluations of them were very high long before they were pistons.

at the rate the pistons swap the rotatiion, your sample size will be contaminated too.
let's see how many points in the paint knight, or anyone else, will get with drummond down low letting his man wander around because andre can't do shit with the ball.

ok, you wanna throw out blind bullshit? prove it. don't say im bad at player evaluation and then pull some shit from your ass. I've watched games too. stats or shut the fuck up. I've seen him shoot less with my own eyes.

drummond = howard??? right...theres a difference between the words mainly and entirely. focus on that difference and stop making excuses. also, set the pipe down.

at the rate the pistons swap the rotatiion, your sample size will be contaminated too.
let's see how many points in the paint knight, or anyone else, will get with drummond down low letting his man wander around because andre can't do shit with the ball.

Given that the team is playing better with every rotation change, Id wager there won't be too many more. Drummond starting is ally the last shoe that needs to drop.

ok, you wanna throw out blind bullshit? prove it. don't say im bad at player evaluation and then pull some shit from your ass. I've watched games too. stats or shut the fuck up. I've seen him shoot less with my own eyes.

I'm sorry, but there aren't stats for things like being able to attack with your off hand, like knight does better than any young pg in the game except maybe Irving, or being able at 7 feet 270 to not only hedge on a pick and roll 30 feet from the basket, but to have the agility to cleanly rip a 6 foot point guard or recover all the way to the rim and block a point blank shot, like Drummond can do. I could go on about Monroe being possibly the most dangerous big man in the nba on the elbow if he consistently hits that 15 footer, because he has excellent footwork and dexterity.

These are all things you see from day 1, or you don't at all. They're not in the stat sheet. No offense, but you just don't see it.

Given that the team is playing better with every rotation change, Id wager there won't be too many more. Drummond starting is ally the last shoe that needs to drop.

yup, until there's a trade, injury, revolt or whatever. and when andre starts to get more minutes production in the paint will drop significantly, because you don't have to guard him at all, just try to box him out.

drummond = howard??? right...theres a difference between the words mainly and entirely.

He grades out as close to howard at the same age as any player in the nba. I don't see that as any kind of a stretch. His defensive and rebounding instincts at his size are phenomenal.

yup, until there's a trade, injury, revolt or whatever. and when andre starts to get more minutes production in the paint will drop significantly, because you don't have to guard him at all, just try to box him out.

Just like you don't have to guard Dwight howard at all. no post moves, can't hit a FT, just box him out. It's really that simple....

And yes, you are that far off base.

Drummond not only has been neary impossible to box out to begin with, but he's such a threat on lobs or tip ins the he completey occupies the other center, leaving the paint wide open for drives and cuts. His very resense on the floor makes scoring in the paint easier.

Knight has looked much better the past few games. More aggressive and seems faster, if that's even possible. That scoop shot was really sweet. Made me think of Curly Neal.

I'm sorry, but there aren't stats for things like being able to attack with your off hand, like knight does better than any young pg in the game except maybe Irving, or being able at 7 feet 270 to not only hedge on a pick and roll 30 feet from the basket, but to have the agility to cleanly rip a 6 foot point guard or recover all the way to the rim and block a point blank shit, like Drummond can do. I could go on about Monroe being possibly the most dangerous big man in the nba on the elbow if he consistently hits that 15 footer, because he has excellent footwork and dexterity.

These are all things you see from day 1, or you don't at all. They're not in the stat sheet. No offense, but you just don't see it.

WTF?
this egotistical rant has absolutely nothing to do with me asking you to provide stats saying monroe is still shooting more jumpers. If you dig around enough you could probably find that stat if it were true. they keep shot charts and shit ya know?
but since you wanna say knight is good finisher, i'll apply it to him to. i say he's an outside shooter who rarely drives because the fucker play. if im wrong then show me stats. fuck a clip of on game where he's hot. don't tell me shit from your view either. i don't know you and therefore you don't mean shit to me. stats or shut the fuck up.
feel free to keep sucking your own dick about how good you are at evaluating players though. appearently you're like the 10 millionth person to realize drummond is freakishly athletic. you're a genius.

Knights mistakes are almost always tied to hesitation. When he plays on instinct, hes extremely tough to stay in front of.

WTF?
this egotistical rant has absolutely nothing to do with me asking you to provide stats saying monroe is still shooting more jumpers. If you dig around enough you could probably find that stat if it were true. they keep shot charts and shit ya know?
but since you wanna say knight is good finisher, i'll apply it to him to. i say he's an outside shooter who rarely drives because the fucker play. if im wrong then show me stats. fuck a clip of on game where he's hot. don't tell me shit from your view either. i don't know you and therefore you don't mean shit to me. stats or shut the fuck up.
feel free to keep sucking your own dick about how good you are at evaluating players though. appearently you're like the 10 millionth person to realize drummond is freakishly athletic. you're a genius.

Im not saying that I'm a genius. I'm simply saying you aren't very good at this. At all. I dont care whether or not you believe me. Im just telling you how it is.

You can't even decipher the clip I just showed you where knight had six layups or floaters just last night. When he's playing on instinct, that's what he does, unless you back far enough off of him, and then he starts taking threes. His first instinct is typically to drive.

Just like you don't have to guard Dwight howard at all. no post moves, can't hit a FT, just box him out. It's really that simple....

And yes, you are that far off base.

Drummond not only has been neary impossible to box out to begin with, but he's such a threat on lobs or tip ins the he completey occupies the other center, leaving the paint wide open for drives and cuts. His very resense on the floor makes scoring in the paint easier.

look motherfucker. check your ego when you're typing and read.

Howard's offense >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drummond's offense

You're a fucking idiot if you don't see that. Howard has some moves. His touch isn't that great but it beats the shit out of Drummond's.

I've watched Drummond successfully tip in one alley-oop try (not dunk and it looked lucky as shit). I've watched him catch one and go back up with it. Where is this alley-oop threat coming from? The motherfucker is so lost out there that he doesn't know when they're coming at all and he hasn't properly connected on a single one that I can remember.

Drummond is a beast on the glass, but that isn't going to keep bigs from camping down there.

8 years later, Howard has some moves. At 19? Basically the same player. Howard simply played a lot more minutes. As Howard kept putting on muscle, he started to throw his bulk around more and as a result scored more. It wasn't because he was a more advanced offensive player. That's silly.

As far as his offensive touch, I'm pretty sure Drummond could beat Howard in a mid range shooting contest right now. His shooting touch isn't bad as much as his awareness on the offensive end is out of wack. Howard is a far better player because he's much older, more experienced, and his body is better developed. Doesn't change the fact his only post move is a drop step and every halfway decent defender in the nba knows it.

As Drummond hits the weight room and work on his upper body, he's going to be the same inside beast Howard has been for so many years. it's only going to be tougher as Monroe keeps getting more and more dangerous shooting from the elbow. Throw in his ability to pass or put it in the floor himself, and I'm not even sure how you'd guard that.

Put that combo together, and you have the foundation for a team that can win you a championship. Just too much size and skill up front for teams to deal with.

Im not saying that I'm a genius. I'm simply saying you aren't very good at this. At all. I dont care whether or not you believe me. Im just telling you how it is.

You can't even decipher the clip I just showed you where knight had six layups or floaters just last night. When he's playing on instinct, that's what he does, unless you back far enough off of him, and then he starts taking threes. His first instinct is typically to drive.

IN ONE GAME???????????????????

one game is how you define a player. Knight's whole career as a piston hasn't worked that way at all.

In the clip he did a good job driving. The lefty scoop was pretty, but lucky as shit. He was even looking back to see if it fell while it rattled around up there. Some of it was fast break. I saw at least one ISO where his guy over committed and got burned on a cross because he was trying to prevent a 3. It looks about proper for a player of his speed with shot. This game was pretty similar to this game for Terry. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIq6QaGs1as except Terry utilizes the midrange to keep his guy off balance (something Knight will probably learn to do with time)
Oh, and fuck you. you didn't even ask me to do that. don't knock me for not analyzing some shit instinctively and sharing my view with you, especially when you don't explain yourself at all. analyze monroe's season and show me how he's shooting more like i've asked! show me how often knight scores in the paint! that's what you're claiming is happening and that's what i'm demanding proof of. i don't want to see some stupid highlight reel from one game where knight uncharacteristically exploded.

Knight admitted himself he was trying too hard to be a pure passer up until a few games ago, where he said fuck it and started to be Brandon knight again. if you look at the last 3 games, he's gotten to the rim at will and finished. His season stats will be skewed by that fact, and are therefore inaccurate indicators.

Take a look at his 4th quarter vs toronto, which is when he changed his approach to begin with. Pretty much the same thing.

8 years later, Howard has some moves. At 19? Basically the same player. Howard simply played a lot more minutes. As Howard kept putting on muscle, he started to throw his bulk around more and as a result scored more. It wasn't because he was a more advanced offensive player. That's silly.

As far as his offensive touch, I'm pretty sure Drummond could beat Howard in a mid range shooting contest right now. His shooting touch isn't bad as much as his awareness on the offensive end is out of wack. Howard is a far better player because he's much older, more experienced, and his body is better developed. Doesn't change the fact his only post move is a drop step and every halfway decent defender in the nba knows it.

As Drummond hits the weight room and work on his upper body, he's going to be the same inside beast Howard has been for so many years. it's only going to be tougher as Monroe keeps getting more and more dangerous shooting from the elbow. Throw in his ability to pass or put it in the floor himself, and I'm not even sure how you'd guard that.

Put that combo together, and you have the foundation for a team that can win you a championship. Just too much size and skill up front for teams to deal with.

I don't think howard would've ever shot as poorly as Drummond did. Did Drummond really shoot under 30% from the stripe in college because he was offensively unaware? You're just fucking with me now right? lol.
Why are you so sure that Monroe's jumper will improve (don't say it already has without stats). What makes you so sure Drummond will be able to put on more weight without losing some athleticism, if he can even gain weight at all? Actually, does Drummond even need weight? Is that really his issue? It definitely doesn't look like that to me. His problems are all mental as far as I'm concerned.
Still, If those improvements happen, you do have a damn good front court capable of winning a championship though. However, If Henson gains weight for the bucks, and Sanders perfects a jumper they'll be great too. If Cousins perfects a jumper, and Robinson gains weight, Sac will be amazing. Shit, just about every team in the league will have an amazing front court if the players just improve those areas. It makes the whole statement pretty damn pointless, but it does make you realize how rare those improvements really are.

Knight admitted himself he was trying too hard to be a pure passer up until a few games ago, where he said fuck it and started to be Brandon knight again. if you look at the last 3 games, he's gotten to the rim at will and finished. His season stats will be skewed by that fact, and are therefore inaccurate indicators.

Take a look at his 4th quarter vs toronto, which is when he changed his approach to begin with. Pretty much the same thing.

So he's a slasher/shooter. A midget SG. Basically what I thought he was but more emphasis on slashing now. cool. I didn't catch his post game interview or where ever he said that. It'll be interesting to see how teams react when they realize that he's playing differently as well. Something tells me it's about to get much more complicated for the dude in the paint though.

Right, he's a midget SG. Just like tony Parker, or Derrick rose, or russell Westbrook, or Chauncey Billups up until year 7 or so.

Knight has a point guard mentality. He just doesn't have great court vision. He can be a scoring point guard the way tony Parker was a scoring point guard: as a supplement to a strong, beefy frontline, and a supporting cast that can also pass. The ball should always start in knights hands, though. He's the franchise point guard.

The most important part is, Knight is a good defender at his position, and he's getting better rapidly.

I don't think howard would've ever shot as poorly as Drummond did. Did Drummond really shoot under 30% from the stripe in college because he was offensively unaware? You're just fucking with me now right? lol.

Eric Snow shot %20 his first year in college and %27 his second. He shot %76 for his NBA career.

Drummond's form on his FTs isn't really all that bad. He just has to get more consistency. He's already made great strides on it since last year. He isn't a total lost cause like Ben Wallace, who basically just flicked it up there randomly.



Why are you so sure that Monroe's jumper will improve (don't say it already has without stats).
Because from year 1 to year 3, his willingness to put faith in it has gradually increased. He's also gotten more accurate with it since his first week, where he missed everything, including his FTs.


What makes you so sure Drummond will be able to put on more weight without losing some athleticism, if he can even gain weight at all? Actually, does Drummond even need weight? Is that really his issue? It definitely doesn't look like that to me. His problems are all mental as far as I'm concerned.

Who said anything about adding weight? I'm talking about replacing some of that baby fat he has with man muscle. He shouldn't gain much, if not any weight. He shouldn't need a drastic change, just enough to be able to better seal his man in the post and finish stronger. He's already doing it, to a degree; he just has to be able to do it against more than overmatched twigs.


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However, If Henson gains weight for the bucks, and Sanders perfects a jumper they'll be great too.

No you're venturing into the absurd. Henson's frame simply cannot stand much more weight, and Sanders simply isn't an offensive threat. Bad hands, not comfortable facing up or posting, and not overpowering enough to make up for either one.

Henson getting beefy would be like Tayshaun growing into lebron James. It isn't in his makeup.

I could see Henson winning a DPOY somewhere in his future, but his lack of muscle will always hurt him against physical frontlines. That's why I didn't really want him in the draft.


. If Cousins perfects a jumper, and Robinson gains weight, Sac will be amazing.

Not really. They'd score a lot but neither of them can play a lick of D even at Monroe's level, let alone Drummond's. Then there's the knucklehead factor with Cousins that is constantly holding him back.


Shit, just about every team in the league will have an amazing front court if the players just improve those areas. It makes the whole statement pretty damn pointless, but it does make you realize how rare those improvements really are

Some players have the potential to make those improvements and some don't. That's the difference.

I see Tristan Thompson, I see a guy that's not going to get a whole lot better, because there just isn't much further for him to go. Same thing with Thomas Robinson. That isnt to say they won't be productive players, but there isn't much optimism of them being franchise-changers.

In 2010, The guys I had graded out as potential franchise players were Wall, Cousins, Turner and Monroe.

In 2011, I had Irving, Kanter, Valanciunas and Knight.

Last summer, I had Davis, MKG and Drummond. That's it. Lillard could prove me wrong, though, but his defense needs to get better. It still boggles my mind that Drummond slid to 9th on such a limited and tainted sample size from college. That's going to go down as a massive drafting fuckup on par with Amare dropping to 9th or Paul Pierce lasting to 10th. Classic case of GMs outsmarting themselves.

Everyone else in those drafts I simply did not and still don't see the potential to be franchise players. That's not to say they won't be good, but I don't see the room for growth to that level.

The Pistons were the only team that landed THREE of those players. No other team even got two. This is why I'm so optimistic about this team's young core, as opposed to the wizards, or the bobcats, or the raptors, etc. The Pistons have three young players that could become the next OKC type team. Maybe they will, maybe they won't, but the other teams out there right now don't even have a chance.

And no, I don't think any of these guys is a first rank HoFer like Durant obviously is. That doesn't mean they can't emulate the success of OKC with the talent they have.

kstat, who are you? what was your realgm name?

i like how you know about henson's frame not being able to gain weight. i read that online too, as we both know blogs are just as good as a check up. it's nice to know you not only got a handle of their game, but also their whole fucking nutrition, health and psychology as well. you must know everything. (or you talk outta ass like maaaaaaad).

anyhow, i'll be back in here later. i'm going to post quotes from single thing you've said that's stupid, self-contradicting or arrogant in this threat. i'm too tired to do it now, but i promise it'll be fun.

Look at John Henson for 2 seconds and you can tell he doesn't have a good frame to add significant weight. Skinny arms, twig legs, rail thin shoulders. No different than Tayshaun or Austin Daye, and his body did not change at all from year 1 to year 3 at UNC.

In addition, the only weight he managed to gain in 3 years in college is body fat. His body fat percentage in the combine at 216 lbs was a full point higher than andre drummond at 279! I'm not sure how that's even physically possible.

He can max out his muscle, and get tougher, but he's always going to be thin. He's always going to have issues holding his ground on the low block, and that's a major red flag as far as him making the transition from a good player to a dominant one.

Love Henson as a defensive specialist with a nice shooting touch. He's simply not andre drummond. One guy has Theo Ratliff's body and the other guy has Dwight Howard's.

Ummm, not even sure what is being discussed now.

I think it's fair to say most GMs in the NBA think Monroe is pretty fucking good and has SOME room for improvement that will be accomplished simply due to experience.

I think it's fair to say most GMs in the NBA think Drummond has Franchise player potential... and Bust potential. It;s up to us as an organisation to ensure he's given everything we can possibly imagine in an effort to get a positive result out of that pick

And I think it's fair to say that Knight is still developing, still adjusting to the NBA.

It's an ever-evolving process. We're talking about guys with less than 5 years experience. Drummond is a 19 year old rookie! Knight is a 20 year old 2nd year player! Monroe is only 22 years old!

FFS - these guys are babies in the NBA. Years and years away from their primes.