http://www.csnnw.com/pages/landingblazers?Jonny-Flynn-Agrees-to-One-Year-Deal-with=1&blockID=777937&feedID=5212

Excellent signing.

He's the total opposite of Will Bynum on offense.

The downside is, he's a carbon copy of Bynum on defense. It's why he keeps getting kicked around after only a few years in the NBA.

Mateen Cleaves approves this signing

Man, MoTown loved Jonny Flynn, too.

Wish he was still alive to see this!

#8 seed here we come!!

Flynn and Williams?

Can we just dump 2 players and give the young guys a(nother) chance?

If the Pistons make the decision to trade Bynum, they'll have no problem finding a taker. Contract + performance + attitude = plenty of suitors.

Still think it would be dumb, though.

If the Pistons make the decision to trade Bynum, they'll have no problem finding a taker. Contract + performance + attitude = plenty of suitors.

Still think it would be dumb, though.

If there was a market for an under-sized, shoot-first point guard that can't shoot a jump shot nor finish at the rim (because he's undersized) that has also missed over 30% of the scheduled games the past 3 years my guess is the pistons would have traded him by now. Alas, there is no such market.

Bah!

Will Bynum would be an asset if not for his inability to play the game of basketball.

All Flynn has to do is run the offense and Bynum will be looking for another job in 3 months. He doesn't even need to play defense.

Lies.

Can Flynn be a long term back up PG for us? If he could be then it's worth giving him a legit shot

If Williams could be a long term role player for us then he's worth giving a spot to as well

We're not going to be a factor in 2012-13 - I doubt we can sniff the playoffs and even if we do we won't do any damage

So why persist with the old horses?

The time has come for Joe and his cronies to hand the team over to the young guys

Drummond
Monroe/Jerebko/Maxiell
Daye/Williams/Singler
Stuckey/Middleton/English
Knight/Flynn

Monroe moves to C whenever Maxiell or Jerebko are on the floor... Prince, Maggette, Nova, Bynum = thanks for coming, tell your story walking

A rotation:

Drummond 28/Monroe 20
Monroe 14/Maxiell 20/Jerebko 14
Williams 20/Jerebko 16/Daye 12
Stuckey 32/Daye 16
Knight 32/Flynn 16

9 man rotation of:

Drummond 28
Monroe 34
Maxiell 20
Jerebko 30
Williams 20
Daye 28
Stuckey 32
Knight 32
Flynn 16

Euro, Middleton and English make up the active 12.... Ideally we'd trade Prince, Nova, Maggette and Bynum for picks/expirings

If that 9-man rotation sucks then BOOM! We get a high Lotto pick to add to our young group

If that 9-man rotation exceeds all expectations then BOOM! We might actually be able to get a quality free agent to sign here with all our cap space

I still believe that acquiring picks and expirings (or soon to be expirings) is where it's at...

A rotation:

Drummond 28/Monroe 20
Monroe 14/Maxiell 20/Jerebko 14
Williams 20/Jerebko 16/Daye 12
Stuckey 32/Daye 16
Knight 32/Flynn 16

9 man rotation of:

Drummond 28
Monroe 34
Maxiell 20
Jerebko 30
Williams 20
Daye 28
Stuckey 32
Knight 32
Flynn 16

Euro, Middleton and English make up the active 12.... Ideally we'd trade Prince, Nova, Maggette and Bynum for picks/expirings

If that 9-man rotation sucks then BOOM! We get a high Lotto pick to add to our young group

If that 9-man rotation exceeds all expectations then BOOM! We might actually be able to get a quality free agent to sign here with all our cap space

I still believe that acquiring picks and expirings (or soon to be expirings) is where it's at...

Poor Kyle Singler. No love from Pharoah.

Williams and Flynn first have to proof they are worth a roster spot in training camp. But really even if they look really good, assuming there is no trade, who do you cut to add even one of them? Certainly not one of the rooks, and the guys with expiring contracts, could be worth more in a trade.

Still hoping for a trade, but i guess it has to happen before training camp start, way too many SF & PF on this roster.

I still dont understand the Middleton signing, he is SF no. 5 or 6 right now, he would have benefited more from a year or two in europe and opened up a roster spot right now for much needed guard.

This team still needs one vet. No more, no less. Not that I wouldn't trade tayshaun in the right deal, but he's still a steadying influence on an extremely young team.

I'd pack Austin daye's bags myself if Terrence Williams beat him out in camp. He's stolen enough money already. Singler is easily a better player as well.

I think it's going to be Flynn vs Bynum and williams vs Daye for the final 2 jobs.

This team still needs one vet. No more, no less. Not that I wouldn't trade tayshaun in the right deal, but he's still a steadying influence on an extremely young team.

I'd pack Austin daye's bags myself if Terrence Williams beat him out in camp. He's stolen enough money already. Singler is easily a better player as well.

I think it's going to be Flynn vs Bynum and williams vs Daye for the final 2 jobs.
You know that's a hellova good point... someone needs to be the voice of experience from the players side... Tay does understand how to recognized situations... wonder if he'd be ok with 20 min p/game?

My spidey-sense says Jonny Flynn is a scrub at the NBA level.

We'll see...

A scrub he may be, and Williams could be in that boat too

All I'm saying is that relying on veteran talent to win 30-something games is pretty fucking useless. We'd be better off handing the team over to a bunch of kids and seeing what they can do.

Singler can take Daye's minutes... ship Tayshaun and Daye to Atlanta for Devin Harris... Tay can team with Horford and Smith in the Hawks frontcourt while Lou Williams, Teague, Morrow, Korver and Daye can shoot from outside.

Harris clears another contract off our books next summer... and if the kids did alright we might be able to attract a quality free agent!

And if the kids suck? We get to add another high Lotto pick to our team, while possibly using our cap space to help facilitate trades!

Win-win IMO

Historically, young nba teams have always grown faster with an important veteran regular.

Keeping tayshaun or an equivelant veteran is important not just to the team, but the young players individually.

How important is it dude?

How many more wins will Tayshaun get us? 4? 6? 10? Do you want the #5 pick or the #10 pick in the next Draft?

I'd happily shift him for an expiring contract or 2... lose the extra 10 games and get a better Draft pick and the possibility of a better free agent signing come July 2013

Whatever Tayshaun brings in leadership, experience, intangibles... sacrifice him for the greater good, for a much brighter future.

It's not abut the W/L for this season. It's about the next 2-3 seasons. Any little thing to help out knight, Drummond, Monroe, etc. you do it.

Maybe tayshaun means an extra 1-2 wins this season. Maybe he means an extra 20 wins over the next 3 seasons because the younger players mature faster. Maybe knight is an all star in 2 years because the team is winning games as opposed to having to figure it out in his own and struggling with the added pressure.

Young teams get better faster when there is a veteran leader in the team to keep things stable. If not tayshaun, then bring in another vet that commands respect in the locker room.

We should be done with the lottery picks. This team needs to start winning games, or risk become the clippers or warriors where a losing mentality sets in and it takes a decade to get back into the playoffs.

Keeping tayshaun IS the greater good. Sacrificing him to tank another season is the far bigger long term risk.

Tay never was a vocal leader, i think this leadership is overrated...yes he is one of the few veterans on this team, and i agree you need some vets even on a rebuilding team, but we have like 4 billion SF on this roster, also his on court play is regressing, he could help a contender far more, than this current Pistons team on or off the court.

I hope we're done with the lottery picks too very soon, we got enough talent out of the draft, i think free agency and trade will be more important to get better in the near future...next summer gonna be huge, can't repeat 2009.

I'm open to possibly replacing Tay with another more vocal veteran with a similar resume, but that's a tall order.

Hopefully we have a breakout season in 2013 and the need to keep him around diminishes next summer.

I'm with K-Stat, it doesn't have to be Tay but it is beyond important to have a strong veteran presence. See like 20 years of LAC, etc. There are exceptions of course but 90% of the time, throwing it to the kids on their own fails.

I was all ready to send Tay out on the next boat to Transylvania... upon further review... he knows the system... coaches .... and he is willing to speak up to the kids... one more year.
Oh, and yes we can use one last lotto pick b4 we donate it for the BG cause.

The Thunder had a whole bunch of kids, let them loose and BOOM! look where they are now.

Having veteran leaders is fine but you need talent to win games and if dealing Tayshaun puts us in a better position long term to win big then you do it in a heartbeat

I guess it all depends on how you view Monroe (and Stuckey and Knight): are they ready for more responsibility? If yes then you make them co-captains and go from there. If you don't think they are ready for that then keep Tayshaun and tread water for another season.

IMO Tayshaun needs to go, Monroe needs to be the leader with Stuckey and Knight backing him up - for better or worse those 3 guys will play a huge role in the next 2-3 years here

The Thunder had a whole bunch of kids, let them loose and BOOM! look where they are now.

Having veteran leaders is fine but you need talent to win games and if dealing Tayshaun puts us in a better position long term to win big then you do it in a heartbeat

I guess it all depends on how you view Monroe (and Stuckey and Knight): are they ready for more responsibility? If yes then you make them co-captains and go from there. If you don't think they are ready for that then keep Tayshaun and tread water for another season.

IMO Tayshaun needs to go, Monroe needs to be the leader with Stuckey and Knight backing him up - for better or worse those 3 guys will play a huge role in the next 2-3 years here

Was thinking similarly, except the part about Stuckey leading anything.

Monroe and Knight seem equipped to lead.

As far as Tay, he can GTFO. We've had a leadership void for years, suddenly he's going to step up and lead? Silly notion.

I only mention Stuckey because IMO it's now or never - either he takes a role that matters or he can GTFO!

Dude couldn't be the PG
Dude is never going to be an elite SG

He's been on the roster for a lot of years now so he's at that point where he can be a vocal leader simply due to time served. If you take Tayshaun off the roster Stuckey would be the most likely guy to take that leadership role... and we should fucking expect him to do it!

Knight and Monroe are obviously our best players - but that doesn't always mean they should be the team leaders... though you'd expect them to lead by example. I'd expect Stuckey to be the guy to police the locker room, help out the rookies and act as a go-between for the coaches and players. He's been around long enough to do that

You never know - Stuckey could excel in that role. Unlikely, but it's possible

Either way I don't subscribe to the theory that a veteran like Tayshaun can add 20 wins to the team over the next 3 years through his leadership somehow helping Knight and Monroe. You're assuming that his leadership actually has any positive impact on Monroe and/or Knight that they wouldn't have caused themselves! You're assuming that a guy who has NEVER been very outspoken about the team is all of a sudden going to be a vocal leader and that he'll somehow nurture Knight, Monroe and Drummond

I'm of the opinion that Tayshaun's best days are long gone and the RIGHT move for this team is to trade him to a contender in exchange for expiring contracts and picks of some description. Tay gets a shot at another ring and we get to clear more cap space to use next summer... and the pick or picks would be gravy

I find it funny that people don't want to lose Tayshaun - IF he stays Jerebko, Daye and Singler get less minutes!

The Thunder had a whole bunch of kids, let them loose and BOOM! look where they are now.


First off, the Thunder had Kevin Durant. That's like saying the Bulls didn't need a veteran leader because they had Michael Jordan. We do not have a future 1st ballot hall of famer on the roster.

You are looking at exceptions to a rule when %99.9 of the time a young team is left to its own devices, it goes the other way completely.

Second, entrusting the leadership of the team to Monroe or Stuckey is fine, but there needs to be a calming influence when shit hits the fan. That's the type of leadership I'm talking about. Tayshaun isn't vocal but he does understand the pacing and flow of a game as well as any player in the league.

If you think Knight is the next Isiah Thomas, then you could be right that they don't need Tayshaun. If you don't think he's the next Isiah Thomas, the odds are overwhelmingly in favor of keeping him.

I'd love to be the next Thunder, but I also have no desire to risk becoming the next Clippers/Warriors/Bobcats/Knicks/Timberwolves/Raptors/Nets/Wizards/Kings.

...as for Singler/Daye/Jerebko.... Jonas is at best a 3/4 combo backup, Singler would be best groomed as Tayshaun's future replacement down the road, and anything that keeps Austin Daye from seeing the floor gets an endorsement from me.

anything that keeps Austin Daye from seeing the floor gets an endorsement from me.

I remember you hyperventilating about him during summer league a few years back.

I was encouraged with his skill level at his height. He proceeded to prove over his next 3 seasons that he is not equipped for nor interested in being an NBA player.

Also, even at the time I said it would take 2-3 years to really tell how he was going to turn out. So much of his career was going to depend on his willingness to compete and develop, which was his knock in college.

It's been 3 years. There's nothing left to see with him. He's a waste of a roster spot. I doubt he sees another NBA contract. Too slow to play the 3, too skinny for the 4, and he goes into a shell of mopey self-pity the second he misses two shots in a row. There's a reason why Joe Dumars keeps bringing in guys that play Austin's position.

Just like his dad, he's satisfied with just being in the NBA, and making NBA money. The irony is instead of staying in Detroit to work out with Rodney Stuckey (like the other young guys), he instead runs home to daddy to train. I can't imagine his own teammates think much of him either.

Agreed.

I have faith in Stuckey, Monroe and Knight and would happily deal Tayshaun Prince tomorrow for expiring contracts and a pick of some sort

I dont believe having Tayshaun on the roster has a major impact one way or the other. Yes there are positives to him being here... but IMO there are also negatives

Monroe is entering his 3rd season, Knight his 2nd... Stuckey has been around for 5 years and Maxiell has been here for 7 years!

I realise Tayshaun is the last important link to the glory days of ECFs and Finals but at some point we need to move along and do the right thing for the Franchise. With Knight, Monroe and Drummond on board we have 3 potentially awesome young kids. Stuckey and Maxiell have been around long enough to see the highs and lows and it's their job to help the kids improve..

Tayshaun is 32 years old. Ideally we'd deal him to a contender so he can have a legit shot at another ring before he retires.

I see no downside to keeping tayshaun. We have no blue chip SF behind him. I love singler but he isn't ready yet. Jonas will never have that job again, and tWill isn't even a sure bet to make the team.

With Kstat's last 3-4 posts 100 %. Silliness abounds otherwise.

So it's silly to trade Tayshaun Prince for expiring contracts and a pick of some description?

It's silly to clear another $6 million off our books next summer?

Instead it makes sense to keep a 32 year old SF that has never been a vocal leader because we need his leadership?

WHAT?

Do you guys honestly believe that if the Thunder offered us Cook, Maynor and their 2013 first round pick for Tayshaun we should say "No"?

REALLY?

What if the Spurs offered us Stephen Jackson and their 2013 first for Tayshaun?

This team needs to clear his contract and move on from the glory days. It's really that simple. If Knight, Monroe, Stuckey or Maxiell aren't capable of filling the leadership void then our future isn't as bright as some of us think it is

With Kstat's last 3-4 posts 100 %. Silliness abounds otherwise.

ISWYDT

So it's silly to trade Tayshaun Prince for expiring contracts and a pick of some description?

It's silly to clear another $6 million off our books next summer?

Instead it makes sense to keep a 32 year old SF that has never been a vocal leader because we need his leadership?

WHAT?

Do you guys honestly believe that if the Thunder offered us Cook, Maynor and their 2013 first round pick for Tayshaun we should say "No"?

REALLY?

What if the Spurs offered us Stephen Jackson and their 2013 first for Tayshaun?

This team needs to clear his contract and move on from the glory days. It's really that simple. If Knight, Monroe, Stuckey or Maxiell aren't capable of filling the leadership void then our future isn't as bright as some of us think it is
This team has plenty of cap room next summer already. Clearing tayshaun's contract for nothing does not outweigh the loss of what he brings to the team.

I would absolutely move tayshaun in the right deal, but neither of those deals is a good one.

Also, believing that knight and Monroe are not ready to lead the team yet is not a sign that we don't have a bright future. I would prefer to let them grow as players before just dumping all the responsibility on them so early.

We're due to have $30 million in cap space next summer. Do we really need an extra $7 million that badly that we'd dump a productive player for nothing?

This isn't fantasy basketball.

Heel turn!

I don't think Vinny should be talking about Fantasy Basketball - dude doesn't have the balls to enter the League after his performance last season

As for the claim we don't need an extra $7 million in cap space... BULLSHIT!

We've stunk for so long we need every possible dollar to rebuild this team. I'm thinking about the long term, not 1 or 2 seasons. Tayshaun is 32. Time to send him on his way.

Monroe + Drummond + Knight is a good start, but we're a long way off being a quality team. IMO we need to stockpile draft picks and cap space. If we don't we'll end up being a middle of the road team that is never good enough to really do some damage in the playoffs.

Look at it this way:

If we replace Tayshaun with a bag of chips this season, and we find ourselves in need of a starting SF in the offseason, it's going to cost us at least $7 million (likely more) for Tayshaun's replacement.

In the meantime, we lose a year of valuable production on both ends of the floor, and it possibly costs us a chance to sneak into the postseason and get Knight and co. valuable postseason experience.

There's nothing we can realistically look at acquiring for $37 million next summer that we can't get for $30 million.

And I disagree that we need to keep tanking seasons. Again, a lot of teams fall in love with this fantasy, and all that happens is a loser's mentality sets in and we become the clippers or warriors for the next 10 years.

We need to start winning games, or our current crop of youngsters will risk being consumed by a losing culture.

Yes, you could always hold out hope that next year will be the year the pistons draft the next kevin durant or michael Jordan, or another hall of famer that's so good that we don't need veteran leadership to bring this team along and overrules all conventional wisdom.

Teams like the Thunder happen once a decade at best. Teams like the Clippers happen every year. This team needs to start maximizing their potential, and they need to start now.

There is nothing you can say that is going to convince me that shipping Tayshaun for expirings is the right move.

He was a glue guy on a very successful team but his time has come.

You believe that keeping Tayshaun somehow paves the road for Knight, Monroe and Drummond. You believe that keeping Tayshaun doesn't effect next summer one way or the other. You believe that Tayshaun's experience as the glue guy on those successful teams somehow helps Monroe and Knight (and Drummond)

I don't think it makes much difference at all if Tayshaun is here or not.

I agree that one way or the other this team needs to maximise it's potential and to do that the kids need to take over IMO

Maximizing this team's potential means winning games. You do not accomplish that by giving away productive players.

I've said before that it doesn't necessarily have to be tayshaun that stays and plays a leadership role, but we do not have another such player on the roster and finding one at this point will be very tough.

If the Pistons are going to trade someone for an expiring contract, I'd rather it be Jerebko than Prince. I think he'd be easier to replace with the players on the roster than Prince.

Maximising this teams potential doesn't mean winning games IMO

It means working towards a more positive future, giving our young guys the experiences they need to develop in the NBA, maximising our cap space next summer by building a quality core of players and creating a leadership group where the key players take responsibility for the state of the locker room and the standards in the organisation

A leadership group of Knight, Stuckey, Maxiell and Monroe is fine by me. 2 veterans who should know the ropes by now and 2 young guys that are essential to our future. If those 4 players can't drive the core values we need as an organisation then we need to get players who do

Tayshaun is the oldest wolf in the pack...with scars to prove his ability... but on his last legs. We should pull the trigger and put him out of his misery IMO. While it's true the pack loses his experience it's also true that in time the pack would replace him with another hungry young wolf

Pharaoh's winning this thread.

The only thing dumber than holding onto Tay for leadership was re-signing him in the first place.

Tayshaun is the oldest wolf in the pack...with scars to prove his ability... but on his last legs. We should pull the trigger and put him out of his misery IMO. While it's true the pack loses his experience it's also true that in time the pack would replace him with another hungry young wolf

...which is the same logic that the worst GMs in the NBA over the last decade have used to create the TWolves, Warriors, Bobcats, Kings and Clippers. Dump all the vets and stock the team with young guys and let them grow. The younger the better, right? It's not that simple.

It's very likely if we turn the team over to the young core right now that this team is still in the lottery years from now and we're still stuck in the same cycle of "we need to keep stockpiling draft picks."

You gotta walk before you can run. This team isn't going to go from lottery fodder to contenders overnight. In the middle, there's going to have to be a season or two of us sneaking in as a .500 team. Best get that over with now.

The teams that you keep mentioning are perennial losers because of a combination of poor ownership, poor management and maybe a little bad luck. We're not in that class, yet, but keeping Tayshaun around (and re-signing him in the first place) puts us closer to that group than moving forward without him.

dumping your only important veteran on one of the NBA's youngest teams would be the very epitome of bad management.

The most failed GM strategy in NBA history is "stockpile draft picks and see where that takes us."

What those other teams have not been able to do, or figure out, is stock the team with potential, figure out what you've got that's worth keeping and building around, and then add a key vet or two when you're ready to make a run.

We're doing it backwards and it has harmed the development of (or the ability to decide to cut bait on, see: "Daye, Austin") our middle of the pack youngsters.

We gave up Afflalo for nothing so we could sign Chris Wilcox, for chrissakes, because too many vets were clogging the roster to get a good look at him in action.

.....so who is Tayshaun Prince preventing us from getting a good look at?

And all of those teams have had plenty of "potential." Under the age of 23, everyone in the NBA has "potential." It's the ultimate excuse for failed GMs because as long as your team is in their early 20's, you can say success is right around the corner, without ever having to win games.

.....so who is Tayshaun Prince preventing us from getting a good look at?

Finding out what we have in Jerebko, Singler, Daye (ugh), Middleton and anybody we could add with his $7m salary.

It's going to be 3-5 years before we can expect to be in Miami and Chicago territory, and that's if everything goes right. Hoping for the #8 playoff berth is a terrible strategy.

we already know what we have in Daye and Jerebko, and Singler doesn't need to start this year to get minutes.

Aiming to win games is never a terrible strategy. Trading a important vet like Chauncey Billups so we can hand the team over to a kid that clearly wasn't ready to lead yet was a terrible strategy. It was ten times as damaging long-term as the afflalo trade.

I'm not going to defend Dumars' horrible mismanagement of the roster since 2005. Re-signing, and now being stuck with Tayshaun is just par for the course.

....considering all the other veterans are gone, it would seem to be the opposite of par for the course....

Aiming to win games is never a terrible strategy.

Right, so let's trade all the kids for Ray Allen, Grant Hill, Kurt Thomas, Jason Kidd and Marcus Camby and go get that #6 seed.

Pharaoh's winning this thread.

No he's not.

Last year, the Pistons started the season 4 - 20, losing by an average of 11 points per game during that stretch. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/2012_games.html. If that had continued throughout the season (and I'm sure there were people who would have been fine with that), that could have had irreparable damage on the careers of Monroe and Knight.

These young players need to experience some level of success in the NBA. If keeping Prince gives the Pistons an extra 3 to 4 wins this season, so be it. You don't want to instill a losing mentality with your core players.

Right, so let's trade all the kids for Ray Allen, Grant Hill, Kurt Thomas, Jason Kidd and Marcus Camby and go get that #6 seed.

No, instead let's be Charlotte and win 9 games. That very well may have crushed any chance Kemba Walker had at being a successful NBA player. It'll take him years to recover from that, if he ever does.

Charlotte doesn't have Greg Monroe and Brandon Knight. Not even close. But they are trying to emulate the Pistons lately, so we'll see what that does for them.

These young players need to experience some level of success in the NBA. If keeping Prince gives the Pistons an extra 3 to 4 wins this season, so be it. You don't want to instill a losing mentality with your core players.

I see.

54 losses without Tayshsun = losing mentality
50 losses with Tayshaun = some level of success, much better

Charlotte doesn't have Greg Monroe and Brandon Knight. Not even close. But they are trying to emulate the Pistons lately, so we'll see what that does for them.

The Pistons started the season out 4 - 20 with Greg Monroe and Brandon Knight, losing by an average of 11 points per game. And instead of benching Prince and starting Daye and tanking the season, they benched a young Jerebko and started a veteran Maxiell, thus trying to stay competitive and win some games and allow Monroe and Knight to have some success in the NBA.

That's IMPORTANT. It's unfortunate the NBA has a weighted lottery system which punishes lottery teams who play with integrity like the Pistons did last season, but that's a whole other discussion.

Charlotte doesn't have Greg Monroe and Brandon Knight. Not even close

well, they have kemba walker, Bismarck Biyombo, and Michael Kidd gilchrist. They're the worst team in the nba though, so we may never know how good those two players can be.

I see.

54 losses without Tayshsun = losing mentality
50 losses with Tayshaun = some level of success, much better

...if 4 wins is the difference between us beng stuck in the lottery and gaining valuable postseason experience, then that is much, much better.

Look at how a young pacers team used their #8 seed two years ago to springboard themselves into a top-4 seed this past season. The thunder did the same thing in 2011, going from #8 to #4.

Young teams have to start winning in stages. The more games you win early on, the faster you can improve the next season.

I see.

54 losses without Tayshsun = losing mentality
50 losses with Tayshaun = some level of success, much better

The Pistons started last season 4 - 20, losing by an average of 11 points per game. Here's the link again: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/2012_games.html

Monroe started every game during that stretch, and Knight started 18. If they had continued that pace, which would have been an 11 - 55 record and one of the worst scoring margins in NBA history, do you think that would have damaged Monroe's and Knight's career? Or do you think trying to win games and be competitive was good for them?

I think we'd probably have Anthony Davis right now and would be one of the most exciting and talked about teams in the league, hopefully improving our chances to attract a major free agent or two.

The Pistons started last season 4 - 20, losing by an average of 11 points per game.

And who started at SF for every one of those games?

I think we'd probably have Anthony Davis right now and would be one of the most exciting and talked about teams in the league, hopefully improving our chances to attract a major free agent or two.

...probably? The hornets had a %13.7 chance. The bobcats went 7-59 and their big reward was Michael Kidd gilchrist.

....so, the odds are far greater that we would have a worse team than we do now, major free agents would want nothing to do with one of the NBA's worst teams ever, and in the draft we would wind up with....well, Andre Drummond.

And who started at SF for every one of those games?

Who started at SF during the market improvement?

Yeah, "probably" was the wrong word, my bad, I was going to edit it but decided to own it.

And shags keeps saying 4-20, but wasn't it 4-18? Splitting hairs, I know.

It was 4-20. We went 21-21 the rest of the way.

Losing can build toughness and character, too, or at least reveal the lack of it. All part of determining who is worthy of being built around and who is not. Having to "protect" the kids by grabbing 3 or 4 more token wins isn't fooling anyone. Well, present company excluded, that is.

Losing in the playoffs builds character. Getting your teeth kicked in 60 times a season builds nothing. Not to mention, it creates losing habits.

If you aren't putting your team in a position to win games, it is impossible to accurately guage who is worth building around and and who isn't.

It was 4-20. We went 21-21 the rest of the way.

Okay. Hard to tell on my phone, looks like 4-18 here, but I'm probably just hung over still.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/princta01/gamelog/2012/?mobile=false

Losing in the playoffs builds character. Getting your teeth kicked in 60 times a season builds nothing. Not to mention, it creates losing habits.

And that's probably the crux of the disagreement here. I think it creates losing habits in LOSERS. I think that it builds something else in those destined for greatness, a burning desire to create change and to lead.

...if you're destined for greatness, you aren't sticking around a losing team for long, and unless you're a top-shelf superstar, you can't change that by yourself.

And to circle back on Stuckey, it's really his lack of leadership and character that puts us in this position with Tay anyways. By all rights, Tay shouldn't be "needed" at this point. I'd say the same for Maxiell, but the expectations have to be different for a role player fighting for place in the league.

...if you're destined for greatness, you aren't sticking around a losing team for long, and unless you're a top-shelf superstar, you can't change that by yourself.

Same issue, re: our perspectives.

If you're destined for greatness, you aren't ALLOWING your team to lose year after year, given competent decision-making by management.

I just don't agree that these guys need to be treated like delicate flowers, needed to be protected from learning through adversity and out if fear that they might leave.

I could be wrong there , though, a few prominent examples of the contrary, like Dwight Howard and LeBron.

Stuckey is the prime example of being handed too much responsibility, too soon. He's not a bad player at all, but he was nowhere near ready to be handed Chauncey's job.

He's grown a lot this past season, but his turn to take the reins is over.

If you're destined for greatness, you aren't ALLOWING your team to lose year after year, given competent decision-making by management.
tanking is not competent decision-making, and these players have face enough "adversity." They should be fighting through adverse situations in games that actually matter, rather than getting blown out for their 7th straight loss.

Disagree on Stuckey. I don't think it was as much the wrong time (it was), he's just the wrong guy to lead. It's not in him.

tanking is not competent decision-making.

Neither is Charlie Villanueva, Ben Gordon and the rest of Joe's post-2005 resume.

Joe's drafting after Daye has been good. He also did well to keep the olg guard afloat and contending until the Billups trade.

That said, this isn't about Joe Dumars, though he will probably get fired next summer if this team stinks again in 2013.

But if the young stars have faith in the decision-making of the front office and the willingness of the ownership to spend resources ($) on winning, then there should be no fear of them leaving just because they lose too many games in the first year or two of their careers. I think people see the LeBron and Dwight situations and start freaking out that we have to win x number of games every year or our kids are all going to get discouraged and leave. It doesn't have to be that way.

young players have faith in the team making progress when the team makes progress. Nobody listens to empty promises.

Chris Webber all but laughed at our $100 million offer back in 2001 because even though we had Big Ben and Stackhouse, we were still a losing team.

Who is going to want to sign with us in 2013 if we're still stuck in lotto-land?

Fair enough. But progress can be adding another shiny new high lottery pick instead of keeping an aging, middling veteran.

Taking one step back and then a giant leap forward.

I honestly don't think that guys like Monroe, Knight, Drummond, etc. give two rips about Tayshaun being around, they'd rather think about who's coming in next to help make this thing jump forward. It ain't gonna be Tay or due to any foundation laid by Tay, that's for sure.

Charlotte's shiny new lottery pick is projected to be the second coming of the guy they traded away the year before. And that was after the worst season of all time.

I don't think a crap season is worth the 1 in 7-8 chance of landing a rare difference maker.


I honestly don't think that guys like Monroe, Knight, Drummond, etc. give two rips about Tayshaun being around, they'd rather think about who's coming in next to help make this thing jump forward. It ain't gonna be Tay or due to any foundation laid by Tay, that's for sure.
They're 19-22 years old. They ave a combined 3 years experience. They don't know what to care about yet.

Again, if Charlotte is the bar you want to measure ourselves against, then yes, life sucks.

We're not Charlotte (yet).

...keep dumping productive players for grabage, and we'll get there.

I'd prefer to use Tsyahaun as a glue guy that holds Drummond, Monroe, Knight and Stuckey together.

He can be the 4th offensive option. He just needs to be on the floor to help these kids through difficult situations.

experience is overrated, i take productivity over experience any day - Tayshaun has been the starting Pistons SF for 9 years because he was the best SF available, its about time the Pistons get a SF who is clearly better than what Tay brings to the table - thats about it, i dont care if thats a rookie or a 10 year player ( a younger guy obviously wouldnt hurt our rebuilding process - but neither would an older guy, you just can't plan with him longterm)- the Pistons just need a better SF - i'd rather fill the veteran void (if Tayshaun is gone) with a minimum end of the bench guy type of veteran, he can still provide leadership. As i said 7 pages ago, Tays leadership is overrated.

The Thunder let Fisher, Nazr, Ivey go this season, and replaced them with young guys, they are counting on Collison + their young stars for leadership. Just because Tay has been in the league a lot longer than the other guys, doesnt mean he provides any kind of special leadership.

But i agree a least a little bit with Kstat, a lot of franchises just added young talent after young talent, never made it out of the lottery for a long time, they developed a "losing habit" with the fanbase living of the promise of more lottery talent to come and improve the team in the future. You can get lost in this cycle easily, especially if you're not lucky to get franchise talent in the lottery.

But the Pistons never followed that road, we got some good talent out of the lottery, now its time to let this talent develop properly and add (veteran) talent to get back to the playoffs.
Thats why next summer is huge, the Pistons could add veterans, but still young borderline allstars like Harden + Josh Smith which could put this team over the top, or they could add another Charlie + Gordon and this thing goes down the toilet again.

Again, it's not specifically about Tayshaun. He's not a vocal leader, but he is a calming influence on the court.

It doesn't have to be Tayahaun. It just has to be someone in the rotation with experience that the players respect.

If we can replace Tayshaun with a better SF, but all means do it and find someone else to provide veteran leadership.

It seems there are several sticking points in this thread, creating the great divide:

1) "Tanking" - in the links thread are numerous links (obviously) to articles related to this subject. I personally don't think that playing your young guys, guys who you think will be here in 2 or 3 years can be classified as tanking. I think you are rolling the dice on youth, and that's OK. With youth comes mistakes but by playing them they gain the experience needed to learn how things work in the NBA.

IMO this comes down to how you view wins and losses and where your team is situated in the standings. If you're a quality team then each win and loss matters more than it does compared to a team like Charlotte. For Charlotte it's all about playing the kids you have and seeing what they've got under the hood - the wins and losses mean next to nothing!

For a team like us that is caught in the middle? Unless something changes we're fucked!

We're not pathetic enough to get a top 5 Draft Pick (which would certainly help us take a giant leap forward to mediocreville - aka where we are now) but also not quite good enough to make the playoffs.

So what do we do? I certainly would never endorse losing games on purpose - that's tanking!

I would however happily endorse playing our young kids in an effort to see exactly what we have currently on the roster. By trading Tayshaun for expirings we'd clear $7 million off our books next summer - but more importantly it opens up a lot of playing time for Daye, Jerebko, Williams, Singler etc

If playing those guys means we lose more games then so be it... but I'll take a better pick and more cap space over Tayshaun's contributions every single time

2) "losing culture", "winning culture" (and to a lesser extent a "losing mentality") - I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that no winning teams have a losing mentality or a losing culture and I'll also guess that no losing team has a winning culture or a winner's mentality.

I'm guessing my guesses are right :)

How is a losing culture created? How is a winning culture created? Is it simply by losing or winning games? Is there more to it? Obviously...

Creating a winning culture has nothing to do with the players - it's starts at the top! A smart owner would hire a smart GM, who hires the right coach. Those 3 people would then build an organisation with a winning culture.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/nrl/bellamy-lifts-lid-on-storms-culture/story-e6frfgbo-1226109358113

""I think building a culture is the most important thing," he said to a packed Lindsay Hassett Club lunch.

"And culture is a difficult word. It's hard to see it. You can see it in teams on the field, but when you are around teams you can't really see it, but you can feel it.

"A couple of really important things to building culture: you need good leaders in your club, and you need good people in all positions. Whether they are a player, a coach, a physio, a board member, whatever, they need to be good people and if they are good leaders that is an obvious attraction as well. The other thing is everyone in the organisation needs to know what their role is, and understand where their role fits in.

'You need to know exactly what's expected and understand how it fits in to that structure, and so if I do my role that helps that guy out and if he does his role that helps that guy out. And with good people, they will work really hard to be the best they can be, they'll work really hard to play (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/nrl/bellamy-lifts-lid-on-storms-culture/story-e6frfgbo-1226109358113#) their role as best they can. And that builds culture."

So GTFO with this rubbish that losing Tayshaun Prince will breed a losing mentality or a losing culture. It might bring more losses - but Prince has little to no impact on the culture of the organisation

Trading Tayshaun(or any other productive player) for nothing is losing games on purpose. You're making your team worse. It's a guarantee.

You can dress that however you like, but in the end it's tanking.

You're also sending a message to the rest of the team that you're not concerned with being a quality team this season. Can't tap dance around that, either.

This team is capable of playing the young guys and seeing what they have with Tayshaun on the roster. Singler is not a blue chipper that demands a starting role immediately.

Trading Tayshaun(or any other productive player) for nothing is losing games on purpose. You're making your team worse. It's a guarantee.

You can dress that however you like, but in the end it's tanking.

You're also sending a message to the rest of the team that you're not concerned with being a quality team this season. Can't tap dance around that, either.

This team is capable of playing the young guys and seeing what they have with Tayshaun on the roster. Singler is not a blue chipper that demands a starting role immediately.

It's not tanking to me - I'm getting a 2013 first round pick and $7 million in cap space PLUS I get to play some other guys significant minutes. It's win-win IMO

The message this sends to Monroe and Knight is that I'm deadly fucking serious about building a winner around them and that despite loving Tayshaun for all he has accomplished he had to go for the greater good.

But you forget I've already created my winning culture in the organisation since I purchased the team and Tayshaun's departure is just another step on the right path.

Ben Gordon getting dumped was one step, Tayshaun is another, using the amnesty on Nova next summer is another, renouncing Maggette is another...

Monroe and Knight would completely understand that while 2012-13 might not be all plain sailing the future was much brighter because an extra first round pick in 2013 AND $37 million in cap space in the right hands can be a very dangerous combination

:)

i like the culture argumentation, there is more to it then just the players for sure.

At this point in his career i might not agree with the statement: if you trade tayshaun for nothing = losing games on purpose.

The NBA is also about opportunity, at this point in Tays career i am not sure how productive Tay really is anymore.
A player like Maggette or Singler or any combination out of the SF we have on the roster, could provide more output than we have right now with Tay playing 30+ minutes at SF. Right now the Pistons have a lot of mass, but not excatly good quality at SF. If one of this backups can make a case for more minutes, i am sure the Pistons will act and trade Tay. But as long as no other starting SF is in sight, its still Tays job to lose.

With or without Tay, the Pistons are not bad enough, and never have been to get into the lottery top 5. (and that doesnt guarantee anything)
Its time to think of other ways to improve than through the draft. Trading + Free Agency will be more important in the near future.

Tayshaun is still a plus defender. I like Singler's potential at that spot, but Daye, Maggette and Jerebko range from average to terrible on that end.

Given that our defensive anchor is all of 19 years old, I'd like him to have as much help as possible to start off.

As for free agency....the more wins we have next season, the better chance we will have of landing a free agent worth a damn.

Oh, and draft picks at the tail end of the first round are not worth losing a productive player. Teams buy them outright for a few million dollars every year. They're essentially scratch off lotto tickets.

Odds are about %95 that any player you get at that range will not be as good as Tayshaun Prince, even at his current level.

...likewise, you are not likely to get equal value for Tayshaun's $7 million in the offseason. There is a point of diminishing returns with cap space, unless you're located in New York, LA or Miami.

The NBA is also about opportunity, at this point in Tays career i am not sure how productive Tay really is anymore.


You didn't enjoy his 2 double-doubles last year?

Main goal for Pistons this season: Reach playoffs


Friday's tasks weren't quite over for Rodney Stuckey.

After Stuckey spent the morning doing light shooting drills with Pistons assistant coach Charles Klask, team spokesman Kevin Grigg had a chore for Stuckey: Two hundred hard hats colored Pistons blue for a promotion awaited Stuckey's signatures in the media room at the practice facility.

These kinds of tasks let everyone know the season is fast approaching, with training camp beginning Monday.

Stuckey, 26, spent most of his off-season working on his game at the practice facility.

He -- along with Greg Monroe and Brandon Knight -- set a tone for the Pistons this off-season: Though individual accomplishments are nice, the main goal is ending the team's streak of missing the playoffs at three seasons.

"That's our ultimate goal," Stuckey said as he dutifully signed the hats. "That's the first step in rebuilding. We have a young team now.

"We got a lot of athletes. The main thing is playoffs. That's got to be our focus."

The playoffs might seem like a tall order. The Pistons are coming off a 25-41 season and will likely have one of the youngest rosters in the league with five rookies. Tayshaun Prince and Corey Maggette (both 32) are the only players over 30.

But the team carried a little confidence into the off-season, finishing 21-21 after a 4-20 start. That has been followed by what team personnel are calling "a great off-season" in terms of player participation, which included a concerted effort at developing winning chemistry.

Pistons coach Lawrence Frank helped to lay the groundwork with a stated goal of a member of the coaching staff visiting every player on the roster besides Slava Kravtsov, who was busy helping the Ukrainian national team qualify for Eurobasket 2013.

"I think we've had a very, very productive off-season," Frank said. "We've been able to touch each and every one of our guys with the exception of Slava, but I mean everyone else -- between myself and my staff -- we've traveled all over the world to make sure we're touching them, plus the attendance here has been tremendous."

And for Frank, any talk of playoffs starts with these small steps.

"It's the culture," said Frank, who is entering his second season with the Pistons. "We still want to work on our individual skills, but let's do it with each other. Let's do it with the guys you are going to need."

Contact Vince Ellis: 313-222-6479 or vellis@freepress.com . Follow him on Twitter @vincent_ellis56.

I'm guessing that you didn't expect that they'd say anything other than that, lol.

Of course not. Point is this is an example of a winning culture, even on a losing team. Everyone sticks around during the summer to work hard on improving. A 7-8 seed would be considered a major step forward.

You want to keep sending the message that you're serious about winning, and winning now.

Is Charlie V poised for a breakout season again this year after working hard all summer?

The only one that talks about Charlie V working out is Charlie V, except when he brings in local beat writers to work out with him.

Like it or not, Prince and Jerebko are the 4th and 5th best players on this team. And I'm sure the players, especially Monroe, Stuckey, and Knight, KNOW this. So trading either one of them before the season for nothing indicates to those three players that the Pistons aren't interested in winning, NOT that they're "deadly fucking serious about building a winner". You're wasting a year of their careers.

Personally, I think Jerebko is easier to replace with the players on the roster, and should be the one instead of Prince that gets traded if the Pistons opt to trade someone to open more cap space next summer. I don't care how old he is, he basically is what he is, a less athletic Andrei Kirilenko. I'm not sure what position Jerebko is honestly. He can't handle, shoot, or pass well enough to play 3, and he's not physical enough to guard 4's. And I like Jerebko, but I don't see him as more than an energy player off the bench on a good team.

I find it hilarious that the talk of Tayshaun having anything to do with our "culture" has died now I've correctly pointed out the culture doesn't begin and end with the play!

And that cut and paste job by Kstat backs up everything I've said - he just didn't bold the parts that back me up:



Friday's tasks weren't quite over for Rodney Stuckey.

After Stuckey spent the morning doing light shooting drills with Pistons assistant coach Charles Klask, team spokesman Kevin Grigg had a chore for Stuckey: Two hundred hard hats colored Pistons blue for a promotion awaited Stuckey's signatures in the media room at the practice facility.

These kinds of tasks let everyone know the season is fast approaching, with training camp beginning Monday.

Stuckey, 26, spent most of his off-season working on his game at the practice facility.

He -- along with Greg Monroe and Brandon Knight -- set a tone for the Pistons this off-season: Though individual accomplishments are nice, the main goal is ending the team's streak of missing the playoffs at three seasons.

"That's our ultimate goal," Stuckey said as he dutifully signed the hats. "That's the first step in rebuilding. We have a young team now.

"We got a lot of athletes. The main thing is playoffs. That's got to be our focus."


No mention of Prince - but it clearly states that Stuckey, Knight and Monroe set the tone during the off-season! That's leadership right there!


The playoffs might seem like a tall order. The Pistons are coming off a 25-41 season and will likely have one of the youngest rosters in the league with five rookies. Tayshaun Prince and Corey Maggette (both 32) are the only players over 30.

But the team carried a little confidence into the off-season, finishing 21-21 after a 4-20 start. That has been followed by what team personnel are calling "a great off-season" in terms of player participation, which included a concerted effort at developing winning chemistry.

Pistons coach Lawrence Frank helped to lay the groundwork with a stated goal of a member of the coaching staff visiting every player on the roster besides Slava Kravtsov, who was busy helping the Ukrainian national team qualify for Eurobasket 2013.

"I think we've had a very, very productive off-season," Frank said. "We've been able to touch each and every one of our guys with the exception of Slava, but I mean everyone else -- between myself and my staff -- we've traveled all over the world to make sure we're touching them, plus the attendance here has been tremendous."

And for Frank, any talk of playoffs starts with these small steps.

"It's the culture," said Frank, who is entering his second season with the Pistons. "We still want to work on our individual skills, but let's do it with each other. Let's do it with the guys you are going to need."


Let's do it with the guys you are going to need... does that include Prince?

I don't believe we need Prince - he's a luxury we can afford but I wonder if we've explored trade options

Trading Tayshaun doesn't mean we're tanking - tanking to me means you have told your team "we don't want to win, so play accordingly".

Trading Tayshaun doesn't mean we're wasting a season of Monroe's career, or Knight's. We're not a title contender so we're not robbing them of a title shot... some might say we're playoff contenders but I don't think we are. Even IF I saw us as a playoff contender that still doesn't mean we'd be wasting a season of Monroe and Knight simply because we traded Tayshaun.

How does trading him waste a season of their careers? They'll play with whomever we have and do their best regardless (we hope)

Trading Tayshaun IMO means putting this franchise in a "better" position to move forward. Claiming his $7 million salary doesn't mean much next off-season is rubbish! It's significantly more than the MLE

You can cling to this notion that with Tayshaun we have a better shot at the playoffs and that means a better shot at a better free agent.

I on the otherhand don't think we'll make the playoffs with Tayshaun and this means his $7 million salary actually hurts us next off-season because it stops us from adding another quality player.

$37 million to spend is better than $30 million - no matter what!

And BTW - Thank you Kstat for coming back! I'm loving the debate and hope we have plenty more during the season.

Trading tayshaun doesn't send a message that were tanking.

Trading him for empty cap space sends a message that were tanking.

The very last message you want to send a young team is that youre more concerned about next season than the current one. That's when young players start playjng for themselves and not the team.

Tayshaun is a productive player. You had better replace him with another productive player.

That effort began early, when several veterans showed up in July to practice with younger teammates at the Orlando Pro Summer League. Greg Monroe said that was an early sign that the Pistons are committed to “doing something special here,” which continued through the summer, when every player except Tayshaun Prince gathered at the team’s practice facility to work together.
http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2012/09/detroit_pistons_open_training.html


not exactly leading by example, isnt he ;) ...well Tay should still have some value around the league, in a perfect world we could trade him for a good backup PG, thats really a big need in my opinion. This would give our other 5,6 SF the chance to compete for the starting SF spot, if no one can really shine there, you could go for a big solution next summer...Josh Smith, Igoudala, Rudy Gay something like that

example: Tay for Steve Blake, if Blake wouldnt suck so much...Blake makes 4 mil this and next year, it would give us about 3-3.5 mil more capspace for next year, we send Tay home to a contender, they could really use him, Artest stinks. The only problem Blake is not really a good PG - i want a better PG backing up Knight, he couldnt even beat out 35+ year old Fisher for the Lakers starting PG gig.

when every player except Tayshaun Prince gathered at the team’s practice facility to work together.Ouch.

I knew that already. Leading the summer workout routines is something you expect your younger players to organize, not an older vet who is never, ever out of shape.

WOW!

WOW!

WTF?

So here we are debating (among other things) Tayshaun's leadership and you KNEW he didn't front this summer when the rest of the team was working?

Fuck Tayshaun Prince!

You want to talk about culture? You want to talk about leadership? Motherfucker is the ONLY player absent!

The! Only! One!

That says it all right there. Just further backs my position that he no longer is worth keeping around. He's not needed for his leadership anymore. Stuckey and Monroe have handled it so far and I would ensure that continues by trading Tayshaun for any combination of expirings!

You really think Monroe would care that Joe traded the 32 year old vet than couldn't be fucked to work out with his team mates in the off-season?

And I can't wait to read the bullshit excuses about how Tayshaun is a proven player and doesn't need to join the rest of the team to work out, how that is beneath him, how his championship ring reflects the light of ever lasting glory and how he's always in such great shape for a cancer patient that he can work out at home with his dildo

You want to talk about culture? Allowing any player, respected veteran or not to skip practice, team meetings or team workouts sends a message to every fucking player on that team! And that message is "he's worked hard enough for long enough that he no longer needs to work hard"

That's a poor fucking message to be sending! A real leader would front up and work harder than everyone else, set the tone and demonstrate with his actions and words that THIS is how it's done, THIS is how you succeed in the NBA, THIS is the standard here in Detroit!

You either meet that standard or you don't play

Fuck Tayshaun Prince!

I hope Stuckey and Monroe aka The Leadership Group request that Joe Dumars and Coach Frank punish Tayshaun for his disrespect

/thread

You're reading way, way too much into that.

In ten years as a Piston, Tayshaun to my knowledge has never skipped a practice, nor a meeting, nor has he ever at any point been out of shape.

If the entire team puts in summer work except for one guy, it's impossible for you to spin that he's a leader. It has nothing to do with being in shape or not, you lead by example.

The whole team is building camaraderie and chemistry and Tay's MIA?

There's no defending or spinning that, man.

There nothing to defend. It's not a big deal. Tayshaun isn't a young player needing to prove himself.

Tay worked out this summer with other NBA players in Vegas... Frank went to visit him recently... not like he spent the time in a recliner.
It's great to see the strong commitment from so many players... it's not the norm in the league to have vets hanging out all summer.

Did Jonny Flynn show up for media day??

Dude, you can spin whatever you want into whatever you want but your quote says it all!

In 10 years Tayshaun (to your knowledge) has NEVER skipped a practice, nor a meeting, nor has he EVER at any point been out of shape!

Yet he didn't work out with his team mates this off-season!

He CHOSE to work out with OTHER NBA players in VEGAS!

We're talking about building a winning culture, developing into a strong team capable of making a playoff appearance AND Prince is in VEGAS!

GTFO!

Tayshaun's CHOICE to work out elsewhere says it all. As a leader it IS Tayshaun's responsibility to work out with HIS team - so he can LEAD the way on and off the floor!

The fact is that this is NOT Tayshaun's team - never has been! He was the 5th option during our great run, the glue guy on a great team. When that team fell away he was merely the guy with the most years of service to the organisation - he became the leader simply by sticking around longer than his former team mates, he was the leader by default!

Not anymore - now we actually have some talent and some guys who want that responsibility. Stuckey might not be the best basketball player but he certainly seems to want the leadership role. That's a whole other debate right there.

Bottom Line: Tayshaun chose not to attend the team workouts this off-season, He chose Vegas over his team mates

And by doing so he CHOSE to VACATE his leadership position IMO

The only thing left to do is get some value out of him by trading him for expirings + a pick or some young talent. Either way Tayshaun must go... because he chose to exclude himself from the team

...you're grasping on to something that isn't there. Nobody is making a big deal out of it besides you.

No one is making a big deal of it because it does the franchise no good at all to air dirty laundry in public

Do you honestly think Joe Dumars and Lawrence Frank are HAPPY that Tayshaun Prince chose NOT to work out with the rest of the team?

And I'm not making a big deal of it - I'm using his absence to further my point that his time has come and gone.

That's the whole deal here, isn't it? I think trading Tayshaun for expirings + pick or young talent serves the organisation more than keeping him on the roster. You (and a few others) disagree and as part of your arguement you claimed Prince's leadership was needed.

He's not leading anything! That's been proven! Maggette is mentoring Drummond FFS!

What have you got left without the leadership angle?

I never argued tayshaun was a great vocal leader. He isnt a rah rah guy. His Primary value has always been on the floor. He's a calming presense, especially in pressure situations. That's the type of intangible leadership he brought to the old teams.

I'm happy that maggette, a workout fanatic, is taking responsibility in the weight room. That's his expertise. Tayshaun's is on the floor.

My stance is and has always been that I'm not opposed to trading tayshaun, but since he is still an important player, he can't be dealt for empty space. Not only does it hurt the team, it sends a terrible message to your young players that you're not concerned about winning immediately.

so in pressure situations you want the 32 year old player out there to calm the kids so they can feel better?

That's doing them a dis-service IMO

No time like the present season for Knight and Monroe to learn how to deal with pressure themselves - without some dude who won't be here when we play games that really count.

They can learn on the floor with tayshaun as a calming influence. Doing them a disservice would be to throw them in without a life preserver.

There is a very good reason why so many young teams without a strong veteran influence eventually crash and burn. It's never, ever a bad thing to have a guy on the floor during the tough tines that has been there before.

h
...you're grasping on to something that isn't there. Nobody is making a big deal out of it besides you.
Zactly... chill P it ain't all that and a bag of chips... maybe we should get on every vet (like CB) that ever chose to scrimmage in other towns.

Apparently, when you add Jonny Flynn to the mix, you get a rant about Tayshaun and a polemic about the whole composition of the team.
All this over a guy who's currently the 16th/17th man on a 15--man roster..
Good to know. :)

h
Zactly... chill P it ain't all that and a bag of chips... maybe we should get on every vet (like CB) that ever chose to scrimmage in other towns.
This.

Why anyone would think following the Twolves/Clippers/Bobcats plan is a good idea is beyond me.

I agree with Vinny.

UPDATE

Vinny is now winning this thread.

So Vinny is comparing the Pistons to:

Minnesota - a team with a moronic GM
Clippers - a team with an owner who was happy to live in Lottery land because it was cheaper
Bobcats - an expansion team that had a dodgy owner and now has a different dodgy owner

THIS is what we're being compared to?

As stated in this thread a winning culture starts at the top, with the owner, GM and Coach the drivers of that culture. They recruit the people throughout the organisation that continue to drive the standards that we work towards... and it eventually filters down to the players.

You draft, sign or trade for players that meet those standards or players that will work their arses off to meet those standards. I believe Tayshaun has disrespected the team, has put himself above the team and to top it all off he's NOT THAT FUCKING GOOD (anymore)

We can surive without Tayshaun Prince this season. We can thrive without Tayshaun Prince this season. Some of you just don't want to.

You want the safety net, you want the experienced veteran around to nurture the kids through the tough times they'll face in 2012-13. I don't think we need him.

Maybe I see more in Monroe, Knight and Stuckey than you guys do? Maybe I believe this team doesn't need a 32 year old to be there for the kids when times get tough?

Maybe I believe that a bunch of young guys working their arses off towards a goal is "enough" this season? All I've ever wanted is a hungry team that is willing to lay it all on the floor every game in an effort to win. Age has nothing to do with it. Experience has nothing to do with it. It's all about effort, drive, desire, work ethic, toughness etc

A winning culture is built on those things (among others).

It's not reliant on a 32 year old veteran SF that has been there and done that and may (or may not) have the drive and desire to do it all again on a team that isn't really good enough right now

You can compare us to whatever organisations you wish. Comparing us to teams that have sucked for years and years because those organisations didn't want to (or have no idea how to) build a winning culture is pointless.

We're not those organisations. We're the fucking Detroit Pistons! We ALWAYS rebuild! We KNOW how to build a winning culture! Cause that's what we do - we win!

We did it long before Tayshaun Prince was on the roster - and we'll do it long after he's gone

He's not comparing the Pistons to the Clippers or the Bobcats. He's comparing your logic to something the Clippers or the Bobcats would do.

Also, you keep getting hung up on Tayshaun Prince. This is not nor ever was about Tayshaun Prince, specifically. It's about providing a stabilizing veteran presence on the floor to help the younger players grow. The teams he mentioned have historically had loads of lottery talent but a total leadership void, because none of the players on the roster know anything except losing.

As I've pointed out - losing and having a losing culture are 2 different things

Those organisations had a collection of lottery talent - many of them busts in the NBA, with some dodgy coaches as well!

Prince is not the only veteran here - when I proposed trading him you guys pointed to him as a leader and security blanket

Is Maxiell not a veteran? Is Stuckey not a veteran? They've got playoff experience :)

@vgoodwill:
Unprompted, Corey Maggette tabbed Brandon Knight as the #Pistons' leader, citing his energy and vocal nature.

He tried the leadership thing last season but it didn't always work out. The Pistons dug themselves a 4-20 hole and never fully recovered in a lockout-shortened year.

"I am here to play basketball whether it is to be a leader or whatever," Prince said. "That is something I am willing to do and help out with.

"I am here to remain a starter of course. I don't plan on coming off the bench."

Prince, 32, is a grizzled veteran who has tried to take more ownership of the team. He is in a dicey spot because the Pistons are a young team transitioning to a new era. They want Greg Monroe and Brandon Knight to take leadership roles.



From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121002/OPINION03/210020316#ixzz28Mw9cj7F

Or whatever.

So we've got Maggette mentoring Drummond and stating that Knight is the leader (he should be part of the leadership group - he's the PG)...

And then Tayshaun seems to back away from the leadership role ""I am here to play basketball whether it is to be a leader or whatever," Prince said.

And then adds "That is something I am willing to do and help out with"... so you're willing to help out the leaders? That's nice of him.

But IMO the next statement is far more telling:


"I am here to remain a starter of course. I don't plan on coming off the bench."


So we now have a 32 year old veteran that is willing to lead, or at least help out the leaders... but the most important thing to him is starting!

Put the team first old man!

If he was willing to put the team first he would have lead the off season workouts, he would have been around to show and prove to the kids that "this" is what it takes to succeed in the NBA and he'd acknowledge that we're in "transition" as a team and that he's willing and able to come off the bench if that is what Coach asks of him!

This is not a shot at Tayshaun - I completely understand his POV. Dude's career is winding down and he wants to go out with a bang. We should be happy to accomodate him!

His time is up here in Detroit. Some people might not like it but it's a fact

Again, you're complaining about something nobody else is.

Nobody, even me, called tayshaun a vocal leader. His value is on the floor. You're arguing a topic that was never under discussion.

Also, if he was desperate to leave town, he would have done so last season.

Heaven forbid we have Jonny Flynn news in the Jonny Flynn thread!

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2012/10/jonny_flynn_terrence_williams.html?utm_source=feed burner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+detroit-pistons+%28Detroit+Pistons+Impact+-+MLive.com%29&utm_content=Google+Reader


Flynn, who finished last season with Portland, became the point guard who passed exquisitely but seemed to find problems getting his teammates involved, and who possessed extraordinary quickness but couldn't get to the basket. Williams had a falling out in New Jersey where he had problems showing up for practices and meetings on time, got shipped off to Houston then Sacramento, and likewise finds himself seeking employment. Both spent time in the NBA Developmental League.

"When I was in Sacramento for the last 18 games last year, it was a great situation. I played a lot and I contributed to the team," said Williams, who averaged 8.8 points, 4.1 rebounds and 20.5 minutes for the Kings. "It's definitely about the situations you're in. A lot of people blame it on the NBA and the politics of it. But in the same sense, I think in the right situation, I would help you."

Flynn cited Jeremy Lin's emergence with the New York Knicks last season, resulting in a contractual windfall with the Rockets.

Again, you're complaining about something nobody else is.
Even the local PR hacks/media clowns are talking about who the leaders are going to be and leading readers to conclude that Tay is falling short.



Also, if he was desperate to leave town, he would have done so last season.

How many in his position would leave a cozy situation where somebody is willing to significantly overpay you and where you feel like you are going to be handed a starting position, free and clear?

I wouldn't call him overpaid. $7 million is about right for what he brings.

And again, you're not arguing anything anyone said in this thread. Tayshaun was never expected to be leading offseason workouts. That's not his thing.

Im thrilled stuckey and knight are taking the reigns in training camp. That's a far cry from being able to do it on the floor. They aren't ready yet.

Hold the fucking phone Kstat.

Somewhere way back in this thread I proposed trading Tayshaun Prince for expirings + a pick.

You (among others) basically said "No way - he's our leader. To trade him for nothing will create a losing mentality/losing culture"

Since then I have demonstrated that:

A = Tayshaun Prince being traded will not alter the "culture" of this team one way or the other because the "culture" of this team is not started by the players!

Obviously I got that right cause no one is fucking mentioning the "culture" thing anymore :)

B = Tayshaun Prince is not a leader on this team

So now we're gonna talk about his value on the floor?

Dude has been on a losing squad for the last 3-5 years. Whatever value he once had as a glue guy on a great team is long gone.

While you (and others) might want to cling to his championship experience the fact remains Tayshaun Prince is a 32 year old SF in a league stacked with athletic talent on the perimeter!

I find it hilarious that everything but the obvious is used as a reason to keep Tayahsun. So far I've been told trading him = a losing mentality/culture. Wrong! Then I was told he's a leader! Wrong! Now it's about his value on the floor - as if playing on a losing team for 3-5 years means something more than He's A Loser!

The most obvious reason to keep Tayshaun Prince on the roster isn't that the kids aren't ready to lead. They seem to have taken that job already :)

The most obvious reason to keep Tayshaun Prince on the roster isn't because he's a 32 year old that a long, long time ago played in back to back Finals. The Thunder weren't even in OKC when that shit happened! Lebron was in fucking high school or a rookie!

The most obvious reason to keep Tayshaun Prince in the roster IS...

(drum roll please)

He MIGHT be a good trade chip next off-season when we have a heap of cap room! Some team might mistakenly think he can be a leader for them. Some team might mistakenly think he bring a "winning mentality", kick start a "winning culture"...

because after this season Tayshaun Prince only has 2 seasons to run on his current contract - and once he's an expiring his worth sky rockets!

A team stuck in mediocre-ville (but without talent like Knight, Monroe and Drummond and/or our cap space) might think that by trading their star (or one of them) for Tayshaun might be a good idea.... better than losing that star for nothing.

So I could handle people claiming we keep Tayshaun to dangle as trade bait next off-season because some team might see value in his experience.

But there is no way we (the Pistons) should have Prince in any plans beyond next off season. He's dead weight! A link to a long forgotten era where teams played awesome defense and we had 4 All-Stars on the roster.

To demonstrate the possibility of trading Tayshaun next off-season:

Tay's salary + $8 million of our cap space = $14+ million - I do believe that's the max for most players

Assuming we have $30 million in cap space that would leave us with $22 million to spend...

A max free agent + Drummond + Monroe + Knight + Stuckey + Jerebko + our 2013 pick = Mmmmmmoist

A team like Memphis may be willing to trade Rudy Gay for Prince next summer. Memphis has $63.3 million committed to 7 players next season. Making that trade would allow Memphis to still have a starting quality SF while slicing $10 million from their payroll.

Hopefully, we are at a point next summer where we will be able to deal tayshaun.

Ok, Kstat let's try this:

Assume I'm Joe Dumars but younger, slimmer and better looking :)

You can be the GM/owner of any team you choose.

I'm willing to trade you Tayshaun Prince. Make me an offer. I just want to see what kind of value you think he has

The problem is that most teams that would really want him (Lakers, Spurs, Nets) would not be able to give fair value for him (Expiring+pick in the 28-30 range).

If I'm the grizzlies, I strongly consider dealing Rudy Gay for him, if I feel I need flexibility to further upgrade my team and he's the most expendable of my high-priced assets. (Conley, Randolph, Gay, Gasol)

And that's the key - Prince COULD land us someone that could be part of the long term solution here

By the time this team is good enough to be playing games that really matter Prince will be off the roster.

His value to us is in a trade - not on the floor and not in the locker room

Do we wait until he's an expiring contract or deal him while he can still contribute on the floor? He's got 3 seasons to run on his contract... making him 34 years old when he's an expiring...

What's the market for a 34 year old SF with an expiring? Better or worse than a 32 year old with 3 seasons to go?

Assuming Prince is traded it COULD be the last significant trade Joe makes for a while... simply because we'll likely spend next off-season and give the team 2 seasons to "grow internally"

His value right now is on the floor. The best case scenario is the team evolves to the point where he's not needed a season from now. They are not at that point yet.

Jonny Flynn didn't do much for me at the open house scrimmage thing yesterday.
He slashes and dribbles, and slashes and dribbles, and then the other team had the ball.

I disagree with you Kstat.

I simply don't think we need Prince anymore. On the floor or in the locker room.

I'm happy to let it go and move onto other topics though. It was fun while it lasted :)

Flynn no more -- he was waived!
WHAT A GAMECHANGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL

No surprise, though I am sad to hear about TWill.

Same - sad to see TWill miss out on a roster spot while has-beens and never-weres continue to get a free fucking ride.

Nova and Daye should thank their lucky stars they have a spot on the roster. Making millions to put in a half assed effort! These are the kind of guys that create a losing culture, that can poison a "winning" environment.

Tayshaun and Bynum also should be thankful to a much lesser extent. Their time is up - 99% of people know it - and remembering their good seasons/games/quarters doesn't help the franchise move into the future.

Here's hoping TWill can make the squad next season...