I have to say that with all of the talent that the Tigers have had, they really are underachieving. There are several reasons for this but Leyland seems to be the primary one.

Leyland has done a poor job of managing the rookies. When Boesch slumped late last season, he should have been sent down to the minors to regain his swing. The same thing is going on this season with Austin Jackson.

Leyland has done a less-than-stellar job of managing the pitching staff. He uses the wrong guys at the wrong times sometimes or pulls out guys doing well too soon.

These issues are not horrible. What is bad and in my opinion the main reason for his dismissal is Leyland's choice of coaches and loyalty to them. Chuck Hernandez was the worst pitching coach ever yet Leyland stood by him and hurt the team. Now the team is struggling with hitting and McLendon isn't getting the job done and never really impressed me. Until recently, all of the coaches were ex-pirates (staff or players) and we deserve better. The fact that players sent down to the minors returned as better players (Porcello, Scherzer, Rayburn, etc.) speaks volumes.

Your thoughts?

uhh, this lineup does not have a whole lot of talent.

I think the pitching staff is really close -- but you may be right about his indecision and disability to nurture young players.

we've got bunch of minor leaguers disguised as major leaguers

I do hate the infamous "Leyland B lineups", though

We definitely haven't really had a playoff-level talent group in a few years now. I'm still with Leyland but he does seem to have some sort of a grudge against Sizemore and Raburn as both have deserved more chances than they've gotten. Still time this year though.

Really wish we'd used that $10 M spent on Maggs to get a better starter than Penny though. With Porcello and Coke still question marks we really needed more stability out of that last spot.

we've got bunch of minor leaguers disguised as major leaguers

I do hate the infamous "Leyland B lineups", though
That's the thing, you can use guys like Rhymes and Kelly when they're the last piece on a contender but when they're core parts of your team there's not much you can do.

I do think that the division's bad enough that if a few things go right we can come close to taking the Central. Those few things could be Verlander-Coke-Scherzer being a rock solid trio, Sizemore coming back up and establishing himself, Andy Oliver coming up and having an ROY-level impact (I'd still prefer he stay down the whole year unless he's just lights out in AAA but lots can happen...).

Another thing that I noticed which I will attribute to coaching is the fact that the Tigers are the best team in the league at not getting hit by pitches. The batters will do all kinds of "Matrix" type maneuvers to avoid getting hit, even in key situations. I'm sorry but these guys are making millions and they need to take one for the team every once in a while. I remember Rhymes being up at the plate with runners on 2nd and 3rd with nobody out. A pitch came at him that would have hit him in a soft spot (his butt). He practically dove out of the way and then hit into a double play with zero runs scored. Hmm.....bases loaded with nobody out or a double play. It's fundamentally bad baseball and i just saw another Tiger (Rhymes again) down 0-2 and again get out of the way of a pitch that would have put him on base. He ended up striking out.

Rhymes does need to be replaces soon. If Leyland's holding that up, I definitely have a problem with it.

I must say though, most coaching on getting HBPs better be taking place long before anybody gets to the major leagues. It may be a sign of not choosing "tough" enough players but I don't know that it's something generally discussed on a coaching level in the big leagues.

It's probably a sign of poor discipline and fundamentals too though, which I guess should be attributed to Leyland.

Yeah, I don't think there is that much talent here. You've got a half dozen pitchers (total) that you can count on for good production and a couple decent bats (Cabrera and Victor). Outside that the rest are either aging vets that can't stay healthy or very young players that haven't proven anything for more than a year (if even that).

I'm not sure what he's supposed to do. He has them in contention for a division title every year, which is pretty good since they have upper-middle of the road talent really.

The real issue is with the front office. I wouldn't fire DD (he's only made a couple bad moves IMO, and many good ones) but maybe they need to increase their payroll. DD needs to really take advantage of Maggs/Guillen coming off the books and spend that money on young good talent.

They are only 10th in salaries even with those crappy contracts. 2 teams in their division outspend them. So unless they decide to spend a little more you can't expect them in world series all the time. St Louis, Texas and Colorado made the world series once in the last 5 years (same as Tigers) and they are all in the 90-100 mil range with Detroit. What team that spends less than the Tigers is having better success? NY, Boston, Philly are the top 3 spenders and they are always contenders. That is the way it works. Imagine if you just spent another 15 mil on a good bat. That makes a huge difference day to day and still wouldn't put them in the top 5 payrolls. They can basically do that next year without adding any salary.

I agree for the most part except that they presumably could have spent the extra $15M this year instead of giving 10 of it to Maggs. I haven't completely given up on Maggs contributing but I don't see much of any way he earns that $10.

I think that Maggs was not a good re-signing and I think that we will be lucky to get 80 games out of him IF he can actually still hit the ball.

The talent issue has a bunch to do with Leyland. I am sure that he has a big say on what players stay or go. There are too many vets that are under performing and they are probably all endorsed by Leyland. I also have to go back to his coaching choices, pitching management and rookie management. If his rookie management skills were even half way decent, this team might be much more talented. With the salaries/squads that we have had, this team should have been better but Leyland has cost us a half dozens games alone with his bad decisions.

I still think you're overestimating the quality of young talent that's come up and the quality of some of the veterans he's had. Outside of Granderson, Jackson and Sizemore, none of these guys were projected to make any kind of an impact on a big league roster and thus I don't find it a shock that they haven't. Granderson and Jackson both exceeded expectations under Leyland, Sizemore I agree as being botched. What you see as under-performing vets I see as old and washed up filler that nobody else really wanted. I mean come on....Inge? Everett? Laird? Guillen? These aren't players that can be key parts of perennial contenders. You might catch lightning in a bottle here or there but beyond that....

honestly, micknugget, i think you need to lighten up a bit. i remember last year you were griping that we werent trading off our old talent like mags, damon, and bonderman. we would have gotten nothing or very close to it.

if you compare the tigers to the twins, we dont develop young talent well. but if you compare them to most other teams, i think we stack up pretty well.

i have my gripes with leyland, dombrowski, and moreso the staff, but i think we get pretty good output for what we put in. we arent the yankees. we spent alot of money, but a ton of that was dead weight. we are a high end mid market team. personally, as someone who was a tad young to enjoy the hayday of the 80's, these last 5 years have been glorious for me, even with all the disappointment these tigers gave as well.

honestly, micknugget, i think you need to lighten up a bit. i remember last year you were griping that we werent trading off our old talent like mags, damon, and bonderman. we would have gotten nothing or very close to it.

if you compare the tigers to the twins, we dont develop young talent well. but if you compare them to most other teams, i think we stack up pretty well.

i have my gripes with leyland, dombrowski, and moreso the staff, but i think we get pretty good output for what we put in. we arent the yankees. we spent alot of money, but a ton of that was dead weight. we are a high end mid market team. personally, as someone who was a tad young to enjoy the hayday of the 80's, these last 5 years have been glorious for me, even with all the disappointment these tigers gave as well.

I don't think that i've been overly harsh. I was pretty unhappy with Leyland and his keeping Chuck Hernandez around as pitching coach (until even Jim could not longer defend him) but didn't call for him to be fired. I just keep seeing mistake after mistake by Leyland and at some point he subject needs to be discussed. I think there are better choices than Leyland but we aren't going to do horribly with him.

Oh. and I still wish we would have traded some of our vets, even for draft picks or even fair prospects. Bondo and Damon didn't come back and Maggs shouldn't have. Anything we could have gotten would have been a bonus.

Why is Maggs even on this team let alone in the line-up? He's hitting like .170 with zero power and can"t field. WTF Leyland?

YES! Its time for him to go.

YES! GO! :)

I really think it's time for Leyland to go now....and Dombrowski. Then dump Maggs and Inge (probably get something crappy for Inge). Trade away Benoit and Valverde for value. Maybe even offer up Verlander for one of those mega packages and start from there.

I think I've pretty much lost interest in the team already. I feel like a bad fan.

I think I've pretty much lost interest in the team already. I feel like a bad fan.

I had firsties.

Dumbrowski needs to go. Where is the "he was never a good manager" option?

I think I've pretty much lost interest in the team already. I feel like a bad fan.


I'm not ready to give in quite yet. A lot can happen to at least get them to be Central contenders pretty quick. The division's still pretty weak.

*Victor comes back this week
*Sizemore comes up and hits
*Brad Thomas gets hit by a truck and never pitches for us again.
*Dirks comes up and hits
*Austin Jackson can't be this bad all year can he? Last year was definitely pretty fluky but he's certainly not this bad either.
*Ditto on Maggs. I don't think either of them will be studs or anything but right now they're worse than Don Kelly bad. If the pair of them keep this level of production, they'll presumably eventually have alot of their at-bats be replaced by Dirks and or Clete Thomas, at least by the All Star break.

Yeah, it's not like I'm going to go the rest of the way without watching or anything. It's a long season and I've just been having a case of the blahs. The NFL draft coming along didn't help matters, because I've been spending a lot of time thinking about and hoping for football.

ah. football.

Dumbrowski needs to go. Where is the "he was never a good manager" option?

Bitch about polls when you post one, dumbass.

You shouldn't post so late at night. You should get more sleep.

You have to admit you bitch and bitch and bitch about polls, but I've never seen you post one.

Poor Fool.

WHY IS MAGGLIO IN THE LINE-UP??? $%#@ You Leyland and $%#@ you too DUMBrowski. Do you really expect to win games with a guy hitting .170???? Really???

When did I bitch about the poll?

They're paying Mags, they have to hope that he comes around. His baseball card says he's not a .170 hitter.

I don't think Don Kelly is a better option.

They're paying Mags, they have to hope that he comes around. His baseball card says he's not a .170 hitter.

I don't think Don Kelly is a better option.
And that's really it. His hitting .170 certainly isn't helping but if they want to be any kind of real contender, they need him to come around. Or replace him from off the roster (Dirks/trade).

They're paying Mags, they have to hope that he comes around. His baseball card says he's not a .170 hitter.

I don't think Don Kelly is a better option.

Umm....Boesch is a lot better choice. So is Avila if he's just the DH like Maggs today. Just stupid.

As for his baseball card, he didn't live up to those stats last year and he's worse this year......a lot worse.

i dont see what the big rush is to head back to being a 100 loss team.

second guessing is easy, but leyland has the track record you want, and has forgotten more about baseball than this whole board will ever know, collectively. i say enjoy him while he's here, cuz it probably wont be too much longer, either way.

im one of mags' biggest critics, but he's here on a 1 year deal. you put up with him for a while cuz you hope he gets back to shape. because, as we've seen, every day players who hit 300 arent exactly easy to find. he's shown more pop in the last week than he did in all of april. baseball is slow, and this stuff will always work itself out.

we're not far off the pace it'll take to win the division (was thinking 91 wins early, now im thinking 88 could do it).

i dont see what the big rush is to head back to being a 100 loss team.

second guessing is easy, but leyland has the track record you want, and has forgotten more about baseball than this whole board will ever know, collectively. i say enjoy him while he's here, cuz it probably wont be too much longer, either way.

im one of mags' biggest critics, but he's here on a 1 year deal. you put up with him for a while cuz you hope he gets back to shape. because, as we've seen, every day players who hit 300 arent exactly easy to find. he's shown more pop in the last week than he did in all of april. baseball is slow, and this stuff will always work itself out.

we're not far off the pace it'll take to win the division (was thinking 91 wins early, now im thinking 88 could do it).

I don't care what Leyland entire track record is. I just look at the last few years and it's mediocre at best. Even if we don't discuss his costing us the payoffs two years ago by resting guys and losing the play-in game that should have never happened in the first place. Let's ignore his poor line-ups (if a guy's hitting .360 in the 3rd spot and .260 in the 6th spot, put him in the 3rd spot dumbass) or weird pitching changes. His choice of coaches really suck and hurts the team. McClendon sucks big time. That really shows when the only guys hitting well are doing so because, per the Tiger announcers, "They have been working with Cabrera". How sad is that. And gramps over at 3rd needs to go as well. I can't believe he waved around a limping martinez who should have been tagged out at the plate (and was except for a blown call). The whole Leyland package is in question and this team should be doing better than it is.

So Leyland costs us yet another game. WTF would you put a struggling Benoit into a 1-1 game??? Really?? Leyland, you really REALLY need to retire......NOW!

So you think we should just take the whole $16 M or whatever as sunk cost after 10 games? We've got way too much invested in him, he's gotta at least give him a chance to sort it out. You've gotta realize that what makes sense on paper can't always be easily implemented in a team setting. Leyland's not an idiot, obviously he knew Maggs wasn't himself but part of a leader's job in such a situation is to give a trusted veteran a chance to right the ship. He gave him what he thought was just about the right amount of time and then he was put on the DL. Do I think maybe the decision could have been made a week earlier? Maybe. But then again, Maggs did start showing signs of turning things around so that probably bought him an extra week. Similar logic applies with Benoit. If he's still trotting him out there with a 6.5 ERA in the 8th after the break, obviously you have every right to bitch but right now, the dynamic of the team's success somewhat depends on Benoit figuring things out. Leyland's going to give him as much rope as he can to get there.

yeah mick, you're a dumb dumb. It's not like any of our mid-late relief guys are lighting it up right now. Give the man whose job it is a chance to do his job. He may/will eventually lose his job, but what else was Leyland supposed to do? Valverde always sucks in those situations, too.

yeah mick, you're a dumb dumb. It's not like any of our mid-late relief guys are lighting it up right now. Give the man whose job it is a chance to do his job. He may/will eventually lose his job, but what else was Leyland supposed to do? Valverde always sucks in those situations, too.

I don't know why you guys give Leyland so much credit for getting us to the World Series (which now looks like a fluke). He cost us the playoffs with the infamous play-in game after he made mistake after mistake in resting starters and f*%king us over. But that's ok.

Let's forget his piss poor choices for coaches (McClendon sucks) and loyalty to them (Hernandez was the WORST and Leyland took forever to fire him.

Let's forget he did the same shit last season when Perry was struggling and cost us not 1, not 2, but 3 f&*king games. It didn't help Perry.

Why does everyone give him full credit for a win (ignore our high payroll, Verlander, Scherzer, and Cabrera as having anything to do with wins) and yet when he keeps making retarded mistakes that cost us games (playing Maggs way more then he should have, putting in Benoit in pressure situations when he's struggling, etc.) we say no problem? This team has the ability to be better than mediocre..............but apparently not with Leyland if he keeps making stupid mistakes.

Where is all this high priced talent outside of the Verlander, Scherzer (not expensive but whatever...) and Cabrera you mention? Much of it is the very players you are complaining about....Maggs and Benoit....you can't say "Hey he's got this high payroll, anyone could be contending!" and then go and say he shouldn't play any of those high payroll guys....that just holds no logic.

You wanted him to bench Maggs...hey, he did! You honestly sound like you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. Most of your arguments seem to be against DD and not Leyland anyways.

and there it is:

http://www.foxsportsdetroit.com/05/17/11/Benoit-removed-from-setup-role/landing_tigers.html?blockID=524477&feedID=3701 (http://www.foxsportsdetroit.com/05/17/11/Benoit-removed-from-setup-role/landing_tigers.html)

I am not talking about only this season when it comes to the high salary but if you want to call out the pricey players, besides Cabrera and Verlander, you have Maggs, Valverde, Martinez, and Benoit (respective to role). There's also a difference, a HUGE difference of playing guys in key spots like Benoit in a 1-1 game. DD got the players but Leyland does the line-ups.

Sounds like Jimmy has decided to skip Porcello's next start, which seems a bit curious.

i know the tigers are big on stats and normalcy, but i think leyland trusts what he sees as well. if someone is swinging the bat well in bp, he'll give him a cushy spot in the lineup, etc. when leyland does a head scratcher, you gotta assume its not that he's an idiot but he saw something and wants to ride a hot hand.

but as stated, if we're going to win, it'll probably involve benoit doing well as a setup man. losing games sucks but no one goes 162-0.

despite some frustrations, im thrilled with this season so far.

i know the tigers are big on stats and normalcy, but i think leyland trusts what he sees as well. if someone is swinging the bat well in bp, he'll give him a cushy spot in the lineup, etc. when leyland does a head scratcher, you gotta assume its not that he's an idiot but he saw something and wants to ride a hot hand.

but as stated, if we're going to win, it'll probably involve benoit doing well as a setup man. losing games sucks but no one goes 162-0.

despite some frustrations, im thrilled with this season so far.

Then WTF did that retard Leyland see last season by leaving Valverde in for 60 pitches and ruining him for the rest of the season. Only an absolute idiot does that to his only closer. How many games did that cost us???

Now that I agree with completely. Super retarded. Was painful to watch.

Has anyone ever seen Leyland actually come out of the dugout to talk to one of his pitchers on the mound (outside of pulling him or checking on an injury)? I've seen Knapp do it but can't remember Leyland ever doing it.

lol, I've seen it several times.

I like Santiago well enough, but why do we rest Jhonny so goddamn much?

I still think he needs to go. Might be a really dumb mid season move though.

I'm sorry but I have to vent. Leyland is just such a poor manager. Why the f%$k is Rayburn playing? He sucks at hitting. He sucks defensively. Both Worth or even Kelly are better at 2nd. And then dumbass Leyland has him batting behind the other strikeout king in Inge. What a retard!! Oh yea, he also benches Avila (who had a huge game yesterday) saying that he needed a rest. He couldn't put him in at DH? WTF? He put Maggs at DH (the guy who still isn't hitting .200). Brilliant!! He also pulled Boesch from the 3rd spot (where he has been great and should be permanently) and put him 7th. Really?? Today is a perfect example of why we are going to be mediocre until his lame ass is gone. I'll bet you he costs us 5+ wins a year just with his stupidity.

Lol.

well we're still waiting on 13 more poll answers before we can know for sure

Jim Leyland's lineups will cost Tigers a playoff spot (http://www.freep.com/article/20110718/SPORTS02/110718048/1050/sports02?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+FreepDetroitTigers+%28freep.c om+|+Detroit+Tigers%29&utm_content=Twitter)

Was hoping to see "Illitch/Dombrowski doesn't owe you SHIT" in the comments section.

Lol @ "Reader Column".

Tigers announce Dave Dombrowski contract extended through 2015, Jim Leyland gets extension through 2012.

can we trade them? i'd like to know their value.

porcellol'd

I think Leyland lets DD dry crack him.

Well, we have to put up with more:

Magglio batting 3rd and not getting to balls in the outfield.

Boesch batting everywhere in the lineup but 3rd where he does the best.

Leyland putting out the worst defensive team maybe in the history of baseball.

Pitchers getting pulled to early so that a reliever can f$#% things up.

Losing close games because of Leyland's senile decisions.

The return of Inge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mr. Leyland, you stupid f$%k;

Magglio is done. He is hitting .154 for the month of August and is a horrible outfielder. He should not be playing and isn't going to get any better.

Rayburn CANNOT play 3rd base. How many balls did he boot or outright miss in game 3 of the recent series with the O's? He only got charged one error but it should have been 3. Get a clue.

Put out a line-up that can play some form of defense. The Tigers are currently the worst defensive team in the majors. Just so you know, that's not a good thing.

Stop with the retarded batting orders. Jackson is not a lead-off man if he can't even hit .250. Boesch hits best in the 3rd spot so leave him there.

let your players know that it's ok to get hit by a pitch and take one for the team. I have never seen a team so good at not getting hit. Do you have them watch the Matrix before every game. The Tigers are the 2nd worst team for HBPs and if I see another guy dive out of the way when he is in an 0-2 count, I will hurt somebody.

Lol.

The fucking Marlboro Man is going to fuck with the rotation now?

Giving Turner Fister's start and then splitting a start with Fister and Scherzer, with each scheduled to go 4 innings.

Overmanaging? Home field advantage? Senility?

o_O

If I understand this correctly...

Penny, tonight
Scherzer/Fister, tomorrow
Turner, Thursday
Porcello, Friday
Verlander, Saturday

Bro, you can't count this offense out, even if they start the playoffs on the road.

Fister's been about the best pitcher in the game (he's right there with JV) over the past 5 weeks or so. These guys are totally creatures of habit.

Now we're going to put him out there, cold, in the 5th inning tomorrow.

Brilliant!

Sense. This makes none.

Shoulda just dumped Penny and given his start to Turner... we've seen enough already.
Giving Cabby a day off Wednesday after an idle day Monday and says he's trying to go for home field... didn't he just have a paternity leave?... that standing around at 1st base must be exhausting... yet Avila keeps playing every game.... nut scratcher.

I think a rainout tomorrow might be the best possible outcome at this point.

You gotta keep in mind that we have no idea what's going on with these guys. There's very little injury/fatigue info out there in baseball. The pitching thing is kind of silly but I see his point.

Fister's been about the best pitcher in the game (he's right there with JV) over the past 5 weeks or so. These guys are totally creatures of habit.

Now we're going to put him out there, cold, in the 5th inning tomorrow.

Brilliant!

I think his plan is more to do with getting Fister in the #2 spot without short resting him or skipping him altogether and letting him get rusty:

Wednesday Scherzer/Fister
Thursday Turner
Friday Porcello
Saturday Verlander
Sunday Fister (if he only gets a couple innings Wed)
Monday Scherzer
Tuesday Turner or Penny
Wednesday Porcello

That way he can use Fister in game 2 without having to skip his normal start that would have been Tuesday (he would have been pitching on 4 days rest to do that).

Playoffs:
9/30 Verlander (+1 day rest)
10/1 Fister (normal rest if started Sunday as above)
10/3 Scherzer (+1 day rest)

Not sure if you do Verlander on 4 days rest for #4 or not. Maybe it depends on how the series goes?

I do agree the resting is concerning for position players. Playing at NY and hosting a struggling Boston are vastly different situations. Yeah, guys need some rest, but they still need to win.