What if, when we had all of that cap space last summer, Joe did nothing, he just sat and waited?

No Gordon, no CV 31, no Wilcox (unless he would have taken what he actually deserved, 1 year vet's min) and we still have Afflalo.

Maybe we add another guy at the minimum to fill out the roster.

What kind of opportunities might have presented themselves?

Would we be better off than we are now?

dude - didn't we do this already?

or was that just the Draft?

We would be better off, but the player raises and collapsing cap wouldn't have us a LOT better off.

I read the other day that the cap might only go down by $2m. Can't remember where.

That would give us around 4-5 mil right? That would probably put us a Prince for expiring deal away from getting a legit big. Totally plausible if Joe is really trying.

I could see a team like Portland, NO, etc that is a playoff team but not a champ contender yet making a deal like that (provided it doesn't put them in tax level).

who here thinks Gordon and CV can be a significant part of a championchip team? pleaser raise your hand...its sometimes better not to spend...than use 18 mil to sign 2 bench players...

i still wish we would have made the Boston deal, Rondo Gordon Jerebko plus a shitload of capspace would have been a good foundation to rebuild

CV and BG can be part of a championship team. But, we still need the main guy.

In a hypothetical world where someone takes Prince and RIP for expirings (i'd throw in Daye if that was what it took) and we get Bosh and we draft Favors:

PG BG/Bynum
SG Stuckey/BG
SF JJ/CV
PF Favors/CV
C Bosh/Wilcox

You don't think that team could win it all?

I'm not sure how real that scenario is, but if it were I wouldn't say they can't win it all.

That team would not even win the Central, IMO.

If that team can't we're doomed. I may as well stop being a fan. How else are we going to become a contender?

What about Prince for Andre Miller and RIP/Max/pick for Jefferson? Would NY take Kwame and Wilcox (buy him out) for Lee to get more cap space?

I can't think of a much better team Joe could put together (barring completely ridiculous trades).

PG Miller/Bynum
SG Stuckey/BG
SF JJ/Daye
PF Jefferson/CV
C Lee/Jefferson

that team doesnt look too shabby ^^

but seriously this teams need a lot more talent, especially in the frontcout and this might take a while...a starting big from the draft sure wouldn't hurt + a smart trade...who knows the east ain't that good we could be right back in the playoffs

yeah, he needs to trade for a big (the usual names on here) and hopefully get Favors too.

I don't expect to be a contender right away even if that happens. I suppose at least a middle of the road playoff team in the East.

To win it all we need Stuckey to become a complete player (either a good long distance shooter or a solid PG) on top of more front court talent.

I was kind of looking for ideas on what kind of deals would we be offered for our cap space if we hadn't signed BG/CV.

Iguodala seems to be available for a salary dump, Boozer for sure, every player on the Wizards

I was kind of looking for ideas on what kind of deals would we be offered for our cap space if we hadn't signed BG/CV.

That is probably as productive as me going over Joe's drafting again.

Doesn't help us become contenders now.

We also would have been able to make some salary lopsided deals, like Stuckey for a big and a PG.

And if we were content to sit, we also could have made the big David Lee offer.

i still wish we would have made the Boston deal, Rondo Gordon Jerebko plus a shitload of capspace would have been a good foundation to rebuild
Ride that train on your own. That shit woulda been garbage imo.

The Rondo deal left us with little/no capspace. Glan/Mlive had a post about it.

Yeah but it left us with Allen's expiring.

Yeah but it left us with Allen's expiring.


Which gives us little or no cap space. I suppose we could trade it, but by that measure we could have supposedly just traded Tay/Rip.

Which gives us little or no cap space. I suppose we could trade it, but by that measure we could have supposedly just traded Tay/Rip.

But they wouldn't be expiring?? Sorry, I'm not following. Allen's contract would be a huge trade asset.

Wait, what was the Rondo trade exactly? I'm having a hard time figuring how we'd have no space with Allen here. I need to see the exact proposal.

I think it was Rip/Tay/Stuck for Rondo/Alen.

My search shows Allen and Rondo for Tay/RIP/Stuckey.

So we'd have Rondo at 9 mil after this year, while losing 26 mil. That's a net of +17 mil in cap space this offseason.

So how did we not get cap space in that trade?

http://wtfdetroit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15797

Start at post #82

Yeah, trade asset and only that. But even with Ray's expiring deal, the raises in salary for the rest of the club (and the holds on the draft pick/Bynum) would keep us from being very active this offseason.

And I'm not sure we could get any combo of players much better than Rip/Tay for the deal regardless.

http://wtfdetroit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15797

Start at post #82

Thank you Glenn.

http://wtfdetroit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15797

Start at post #82

Looks like only P would take Stuckey over Rondo. Yargs ripped Rondo for his lack of 3 point shot but Stuckey doesn't have one either.

Yeah, trade asset and only that. But even with Ray's expiring deal, the raises in salary for the rest of the club (and the holds on the draft pick/Bynum) would keep us from being very active this offseason.

And I'm not sure we could get any combo of players much better than Rip/Tay for the deal regardless.

What raises? Only Bynum would be due of oour young guys. Bosh isn't better than RIP and Tay? I think so:

PG Rondo\Bynum
SG BG\Daye
SF JJ\Daye
PF CV\Max
C Bosh\Wilcox

Plus maybe a top 5 pick.

God damn it Chris. I'm going to drive to Colorado and point at you angrily. Just go to Mlive and look it up yourself then. Gordon gets a raise, CV gets a raise.

Where the mother fucking hell are you getting Bosh? You are trading Ray Allen's deal?

God damn it Chris. I'm going to drive to Colorado and point at you angrily. Just go to Mlive and look it up yourself then. Gordon gets a raise, CV gets a raise.

Where the mother fucking hell are you getting Bosh? You are trading Ray Allen's deal?
WTF are you talking about?

Our current projected salary for next year is 51 mil. PERIOD. Bynum is the only potential FA due for a raise (unless you bring back vets like Ben). take off 26 mil in salaries (Tay/RIP/Stuckey) and add 9 mil (Rondo). We let Ray go and sign Bosh with the 17 mil in cap space.

It's pretty damn simple, why are you the only one that doesn't get it? CV and BG's contracts are already figured into the cap. Raises means a player is due for an extension. %95 of players in the NBA get pay increases every year automatically. we are talking about actual new contract raises.

You want me to trust mlive as a source? Those idiots know jack shit about the cap. I could go in there and teach them a seminar on the CBA. Those are the same people that said we should keep Memo and Sheed when it was impossible to keep both.

We certainly couldn't have gotten Bosh but I imagine we could have pretty easily gotten a Boozer, Kaman, Camby type player for the deal, and that would have greatly improved the makeup of the team.

I was talking about Bosh next year.

Anyway, their updated math shows Bynum's cap hold and 3 min roster spots in addition to the pick. That would leave us anywhere from 8 mil to 15 mil in cap space depending on where it ends up. We could probably buy out Wilcox to get another 3 mil. Or you trade Ray's giant expiring for a center.

The point is that Ray's salary is a LOT more valuable than RIP/Tay (assuming you do something with it).

WTF are you talking about?

Our current projected salary for next year is 51 mil. PERIOD. Bynum is the only potential FA due for a raise (unless you bring back vets like Ben). take off 26 mil in salaries (Tay/RIP/Stuckey) and add 9 mil (Rondo). We let Ray go and sign Bosh with the 17 mil in cap space.

It's pretty damn simple, why are you the only one that doesn't get it? CV and BG's contracts are already figured into the cap. Raises means a player is due for an extension. %95 of players in the NBA get pay increases every year automatically. we are talking about actual new contract raises.

You want me to trust mlive as a source? Those idiots know jack shit about the cap. I could go in there and teach them a seminar on the CBA. Those are the same people that said we should keep Memo and Sheed when it was impossible to keep both.

Chris-

I have been PMing with some people who post here in the past week, and they would like you to stop posting in the NBA forum for a bit and get your head back together. Please take this advise. Your posts make this place worse. Please take a break.

A raise is a raise. That is why I used the word. Who the fuck are you to tell me how to use a word when I used it correctly? Don't tell me "we" were using it some other way, I was the one who fucking used it.

You can dump Bynum (which you didn't do in your example, because you embarrassed yourself) in which case you would have around $43.5 million used up in cap....and you still wouldn't get Bosh even the cap it stayed the same. And it won't. It takes 17+mil for a max offer. Find that for me in your example.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r118/DD2K/Pistonssalary-RondoTrade.png


Please apologize to the board then go away. Thank you.

It's pretty damn simple, why are you the only one that doesn't get it?

I'm not apologizing for anything. I mentioned the usage of raise because you said specifically that we won't have any money when BG and CV get raises. EVERY PLAYER ON THE TEAM GETS A RAISE EXCEPT MAX AND WILCOX.

If you bother to read post #33 I said mlive changed their numbers to that chart you just posted (the last time I read their article their numbers were all jacked up). I said we'd still have 8-15 mil depending on the cap level. I said it would be easy to buy out Wilcox and have Bosh type money, which we would unless the cap goes down more than a few million.

This is what you said:


The Rondo deal left us with little/no capspace. Glan/Mlive had a post about it.

That is simply untrue. 8-15 mil is not little/no capspace. You could even deal Wilcox as an expiring to a team with an 11-18 mil center and get them 8-15 mil in cap relief. I'd much rather have the post Boston trade than two aging wings on a shitty team.

If you want to bash me for not going back and reading their article after they corrected it, fine. That seems to be the strategy on here to pick apart something even though the overall idea is correct.

Your overall idea was getting Bosh and keeping Bynum. I saw it with my own eyes. That was flat stupid. And how do we "buy out" wilcox? Why didn't we "buy out" Kwame? Is there a clause in his option I don't know about? Link? Or did you just make that up?

and 8 million is 3 million more the then MLE. And that's if the cap only drops a bit. WHOOO!!!!

Uh, Wilcox has a player option next year. Why can't they simply pay him half his salary to opt out and he can get another 3 mil somewhere else? I assume you mean buying out Kwame now since he's a FA next year already. Why would we buy out Kwame when he's an expiring deal? So we can have 4 million and not be able to sign anyone? We traded AA for the space to sign Wilcox because Joe wanted another big. So you think he should buy out an expring Kwame and have less depth there and no big to replace him? That makes no sense.

The reason you buy out Wilcox is to have that extra 3 mil. That would make 11 mil in space at worst, which isn't Bosh money, but probably Lee money. If the cap does stay up then you have Amare or Bosh money. Or you trade Wilcox for a big making 11-18 mil next year and save a team money with our cap space.

I guess you'd rather have RIP and Tay though. Fine, lets enjoy another year of no defense, no post play, no contention basketball.

This is like talking to a child.

No Chris, why didn't we buy out Kwame last year? Instead of just giving up players. Why not just give Kwame some money not to accept his player option?

These things have to be written into the deal (oberto). You can't just decide to do it. Do you have a link where Wilcox has a buyout available on his option? If not, we can't just make up that clause later in the game.

At the best, if he does have a buyout, the 1.5 mil would still count against our cap like Oberto's does.

LOL @ that lineup returning us to "contention basketball". Clown shoes.

61. What is a contract buy-out?

Sometimes players and teams decide to divorce each other. They do this by mutually agreeing that:

The team will waive the player;
If the player clears waivers, the compensation protection for lack of skill (see question number 93 (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q93)) will be reduced or eliminated;
Optionally the payment schedule for the remaining salary may be shortened or lengthened.
Optionally the team's set-off rights (see question number 56 (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q56)) may be waived. For example, the Celtics did this with Dino Radja prior to the 1997-98 season. They mutually agreed to reduce Radja's compensation protection to 50% of its value, and then the Celtics waived him. When he cleared waivers he was paid the 50% he was owed, and he was then free to return to Europe.
But there's a twist, which needed an arbitrator's ruling during the 1999-00 season to resolve. As detailed in question number 93 (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q93), on January 10 all contracts become guaranteed for the rest of the season. Compensation protection insures the player against loss of salary after being waived for lack of skill. But if he is waived after January 10, then he doesn't lose his salary, so the compensation protection does not kick in. Even though the team & player can mutually agree to reduce or eliminate the player's compensation protection, he is still owed his full salary if waived after January 10.

LOL @ that lineup returning us to "contention basketball". Clown shoes.
I'll take my chances with Rondo/BG/JJ/Favors/Bosh with Bynum/Daye/Max off the bench over the current lineup anyday.

Or perhaps you think we'll get something great for Tay's contract next year? It's possible, but it's also possible that Jefferson and all the other bigs rumored to be available are already moved to one of the many teams with cap space this summer.

1. Coon's example doesn't lower the cap hit.

2. YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT LINEUP! YOU CAN'T FUCKING HAVE IT AND IF YOU DID YOU STILL WOULDN'T CONTEND! STOP IT! WHY DO I HAVE TO KEEP CORRECTING YOU!

Wow, you are amazing. Tell me how we could not trade Wilcox for an 11-18 mil player next year under that scenario. Or, tell me how we could not have flipped Ray for that player right now.

Stop being a moron and realize we could add a franchise center if we had made the Rondo deal.

If you don't think that team would contend, fine. But stop being an idiot and realize that is in fact possible.

I was kind of looking for ideas on what kind of deals would we be offered for our cap space if we hadn't signed BG/CV.

I'll try to move this away from Hermy v Chris and admit I'm only guessing:

Maybe been the destination of salary dumps from:

CHI - Hinrich and/or Tyrus Thomas (but why would we help them?)
GSW (Biedrins or Maggette) if they gave us a pick
Indiana (do they have issues?) if they gave us a pick
Milwaukee - coulda taken Redd off them now if they included a pick
Miami - help them clear some more cap????? (D Wright?)
NJ - do they have anyone signed past this off-season they wanna move?
Philly - don't they have a few shitty contracts (Kapono?)
SAC - Nocioni if they gave us a young dude or a pick
UTA - Boozer for next to nothing
WAS - their whole team for nothing

Or even Portland - do they need all those young guards? Take Kwame.

My guess is that we could have been part of several little deals that MIGHT have net us a second rounder or 2, a young player with some potential or 2 and POSSIBLY a future first rounder.

They cost of that youth would have likely been a couple of contracts likely 3 or 4 years long worth somewhere close to the MLE.

Basically, we'd use the cap space on crap and hope that the youth and/or picks "blossom" in Detroit to compensate.

In hindsight Joe should have offered David Lee $9 mil as a starting salary and seen what the Knicks did. If they match you would have to turn to Millsap or someone else. If they dont you just bought your starting PF/C for the next 5 years.

And fuck anyone who says he doesn't play quality D. Very few players in the league play what I consider quality D. The rules and the game have changed. There ain't no more banging going on in the paint. You touch someone and it's a foul. And not very many players can guard the uber-elite bigs with single coverage anyway.

You sign Lee and hope to still land Nova. Shit - give him the extra mil you saved by signing Lee and not BG. And don't fucking trade Afflalo

C: Big Ben/Lee/Kwame
F: Lee/Nova/Maxiell
F: Tay/Daye/Jerebko/Summers
G: Rip/Double A
G: Stuckey/Bynum/Atkins

There's your 14 man squad.

Is it great? Is it a contender? Is it better than what we have now?

Wow, you are amazing. Tell me how we could not trade Wilcox for an 11-18 mil player next year under that scenario. Or, tell me how we could not have flipped Ray for that player right now.

Stop being a moron and realize we could add a franchise center if we had made the Rondo deal.

If you don't think that team would contend, fine. But stop being an idiot and realize that is in fact possible.


Never said you couldn't. You could have Boozer or whomever. Agree with that. Now, tell me 2 things:

Chris Kamen or Boozer (or whoever) and Rondo on this team - Tay, Rip, Stuckey is not a .600 team.

You can't have Bosh. Tell me right now, there is 0% chance you can get Bosh when that deal is done.

Do those 2 things and we'll call an end to this thread.

Never said you couldn't. You could have Boozer or whomever. Agree with that. Now, tell me 2 things:

Chris Kamen or Boozer (or whoever) and Rondo on this team - Tay, Rip, Stuckey is not a .600 team.

You can't have Bosh. Tell me right now, there is 0% chance you can get Bosh when that deal is done.

Do those 2 things and we'll call an end to this thread.
You can have Bosh if the cap does not go down. Otherwise it requires dumping Wilcox or Max for an expiring (possible with a future pick or maybe 2nd rounder this year). I wouldn't bet on it, but it would have been possible.

More likely would have been to take on a somewhat lesser big with the cap space or flip Ray for it.

Kaman, Boozer, Jefferson and Lee would have all made us better, but not contenders. We'd still need more help but be closer.

However, if we had made that move, I'm not sure we would have signed CV and BG anyway. With an 18 mil expiring deal he could have just saved that for Bosh and only signed one of them. We'll never know. But I would have rather gone that route than the mass of SG's we have now.

The reason he did not is he feels Stuckey has enough PG skills to run the show. We'll see.

I do not think moving either guy for an expiring is possible.

Pretty sure we already had CV and BG when that deal was offered.

Not sure about Jefferson or Lee being available for an expiring. Or Kaman for that matter, but that's picking nits.

I think he didn't do it because of Stuck, but also because he like the game of Rip and Tay.

Anyway, thank you for admitting we can't get Bosh and we are both satisfied with our noncontenders.

If the Boozer/Tay rumor is legit I would do that. Again we'd be out of the Bosh range but could add Lee. If we could get Favors and he pans out we'd be in good shape.

Looks like only P would take Stuckey over Rondo. Yargs ripped Rondo for his lack of 3 point shot but Stuckey doesn't have one either.

Please put that in context.

I said I would take Stuckey over Rondo on this team. We can't score with a $2 whore now and if we had Rondo it would be much much worse.

The guy can't hit a FT to save his life - how the fuck is he gonna carry the offensively load like Stuckey has many times?

Stuckey has his faults (many!) but the guy can carry the offensive load sometimes and has done it. That's hard to do when you're getting swamped by 2 or 3 defenders cause fuckers can't nail open shots (and cause he can't pass the ball lol).

But yeah - on a different team Rondo is the man. Ric Flair bows at his feet. But not on this team. You put Rondo on this team and we suck even more than we do now - which is insane.

You put Rondo on this team and we suck even more than we do now - which is insane.


We *might* have a worse record, but we'd be closer to contending.

^That makes total sense to me, but might not make sense to others.

We *might* have a worse record, but we'd be closer to contending.

^That makes total sense to me, but might not make sense to others.

It makes sense.

Someone will probably start something over it though - we've all developed that skill this season.

Looks like you and Langlois are two peas in a pod, lol.


I sense there’s a restlessness among Pistons fans with Stuckey at the moment, while Rondo has fully earned the All-Star berth he gained last week. But I’d be careful about swapping Stuckey for Rondo. When the Pistons beat Boston two weeks ago, I thought Stuckey was the best player on the floor. Put Rondo on the Pistons right now and I wonder how effective he would be without the scoring threats of Allen and Paul Pierce on the wings and big men who can score in Kevin Garnett, Rasheed Wallace and Kendrick Perkins.

I don't want to agree with him (Al Jefferson motherfucker) but it's not brain surgery.

Rondo can't shoot. He can't carry the offense on his shoulders.

Yes, he can run an offensive system and get guys the ball when and where they need it. That's a skill we so desperately need.

BUT

Our team sucks shit. We have no one that can do anything offensively and without Stuckey starting at PG (with Rip at SG) we'd be even fucking worse.

I never thought I would type that but there you go

Kg's pretty broken and Pierce has been out and he's still been playing pretty damn well. I think that excuse has run it's course, the kid's pretty damn good on his own.

Kg's pretty broken and Pierce has been out and he's still been playing pretty damn well. I think that excuse has run it's course, the kid's pretty damn good on his own.

What excuse? That Rondo can't shoot?

Please explain to me how Rondo would be putting up 17 points, whatever boards and 8 assists on this squad.

Please!

I have never said the kid was no good. In fact I have stated countless times how good he is. I just believe he benefits greatly from being in Boston.

How the fuck does David Lee get shit thrown his way "cause he plays in that system" and everyone just nods and agrees but when someone turns around and says Rondo benefits from playing with those great players people disagree?

Of course he benefits greatly from playing in Boston with those players. They open the floor for him. They allow him to do whatever the fuck he wants for 20 seconds of the shot clock. You think Ray Allen or Paul Pierce or even Eddie House is gonna panic when they catch the ball 23 feet from the hoop with 4 seconds left on the shot clock?

Fuck no!

But how would Jonas Jerebko or Tayshaun Prince or Richard Hamilton react to catching the ball at the 3 point line with 4 seconds to shoot?

None of those 3 can create off the dribble and none of those 3 is a "great" 3 point shooter.

In fact, one could argue that Rondo would not be able to find them wide open on the 3 point line cause all their defenders (and Ben Wallace's man, too) would be rushing his way in that situation.

Looking back we should done that Rondo/Ray Allen deal though

Our line-up:

G: Rondo/Bynum/Atkins
G: Ray Allen/BG/Deron
F: Jerebko/Daye/Summers
F: Nova/Maxiell/Wilcox
C: Big Ben/Kwame

That would be our 14 man line-up this season.

All season long you would try to package our 2010 pick with Maxiell for an expiring contract. You might be able to swing Maxiell plus the pick to Washington for Haywood right now.

Worst case scenario you renounce Bynum, Allen and Kwame and have maybe $9-11 million in cap space (assuming a $52 mil cap)

You use that money to sign a big man (David Lee) or you use part of it with our pick plus Austin Daye to get our big man.

Rondo + Flash Gordon + The Walls of Jerebko + Super Nova + ?

That's a pretty good starting unit (how good obviously depends on the big).

The excuse that Rondo's only successful because of his teammates that you keep making.

That is not a good starting unit.

The excuse that Rondo's only successful because of his teammates that you keep making.

Please show me where I have stated that "Rondo is only successful because of his teammates".

Please find it, quote it and prove yourself right.

Otherwise you might wanna do what something rather rare on these boards:

Read the whole fucking post you're replying to.

Sometimes I swear you guys do this shit so I'll rant about something

That is not a good starting unit.

Considering the circumstances I can't see a better one available to us.

Rondo is almost a legend on these boards, so his ability combined with the big man we signed/traded for would (maybe?) make up for the weaknesses at SG, SF and PF.

If you could post some realistic scenarios where we improve the roster I'd be more than happy to read it.