Just vote.

Re posted for public viewing.

First rounders:

00: 14th pick (Cleaves)
01: 9th pick (White)
02: 23rd pick (Tay)
03: 2nd (Darko). 25th (Delfino)
04: 25th pick (gone in Sheed deal)
05: 26th pick (Max)
06: 30th pick (traded with EC for Arroyo)
07: 15th pick (Stuckey), 27th (AA)
08: 29th pick, to Seattle for Sharpe and Plaisted
09: 15th pick (Daye)

Nothing noteworthy in 2nd but Memo, but I consider the 2nd round a crap shoot anyway.

*Que discussion/argument on Darko pick.*

*Que discussion/argument on Darko pick.*

Were any other good players available in that draft? I can't remember.

Lol, this is the silliest thread ever. I'll succumb to the masses that think Joe drafts well.

Joe Dumars' drafting history not as bad as you might think (http://blog.mlive.com/fullcourtpress/2010/02/about_joe_dumars_drafts_theyre.html)

Clear out for Pharaoh

Also, read Dial's response. It's nice to see someone actually point out some of the mistakes made by the Spurs, an organization that is typically insulated from any wrongdoing or used as the "model front office".

I ripped his post in there. So the spurs made some mistakes. I think picking in the late 20's and getting half their core there (Parker, Manu, Hill) isn't too shabby. Last time I checked they don't have 3 lotto picks not in the NBA (when Darko leaves).

Argh! Another Spurs lover!

*slams door to room*

LOL, I've been agreeing they are DONE for years. I don't like them, but to say their drafting is bad is laughable at best.

But they've made mistakes just like everyone else. It's just (personally) annoying that they have this "perfect" reputation.

of course they've made mistakes. I still haven't seen anyone that has made more mistakes than us in the draft. There may very well be one, I haven't looked at every team though.

The Knicks suddenly popped in my mind. First rounders:

Hill (too soon to tell), Gallinari (too soon to tell), Chandler, Balkman & Collins, Frye & Lee, Ariza, Sweetney, Nene, Weis.

There are a few good players in there for sure. They've had 3 lotto picks also (not counting Hill and Gallinari), so it's a good comparison. I'd take their drafting over ours.

Once again people (Glenn) are caught up on the fact that other teams missed on players too.

Yes, yes, yes - every team misses on quality talent. It happens every Draft blah, blah, blah

Get the fuck over it and learn to read.

The problem isn't that Joe missed. Cause again - everyone misses.

The problem is that Joe misses a fucking lot. A LOT.

We're talking Tayshaun (maybe Stuckey, maybe Daye) as the only real stud in 10 years of first round picks.

FUCK THAT!

And who gives a fuck what other teams do? If other GM's are signing bums to big ass contracts (New York - Zeke) that doesn't mean Joe should too.

If other GM's are firing coaches almost every off-season that doesn't mean Joe should too.

I don't give a flying fuck how New Jersey run their franchise. Fuck them.

I do however care how Joe runs the Pistons.

Memo is as much a stud as Tay.

And if everyone is signing stiff bigmen for MLE, you pay stiff bigmen a big chunk of the MLE (olden, Davis, Kwame)

Memo is as much a stud as Tay.

And if everyone is signing stiff bigmen for MLE, you pay stiff bigmen a big chunk of the MLE (olden, Davis, Kwame)

Memo only counts if we're gonna go through every single team's second round and find out what stars they drafted there too.

Face it - Joe got Tay in the first round (1 stud), Memo in the 2nd (1 stud)

Let's say he used 20 picks in the last 10 years (I know at least 10 were first rounders).

He's picking a better than average guy 1 out of 10 picks! That's 1 every 5 years.

And we're rebuilding!

We are fucked!

And WTF does Olden, Davis and Kwame have to do with this? Are you defending Joe for signing them? I never mentioned them. I mentioned New York having a bunch of dudes on big ass contracts and thought everyone would remember how great that worked for them...

But IIRC I have never taken Joe to task for the signing of bigs except Wilcox. And the Wilcox move is so fucking moronic I'm entitled

Yeah, you can applaud him for finding Memo, but how many other 2nd rounders are there that have contributed as part of a rotation:

Manu, Ellis, Redd, Boozer, Arenas, Mo Williams, Kapono, Korver, Varajao, Ariza, Duhon, Bass, Turiaf, Wafer, Gortat, Millsaip, Landry, Glen Davis, Gasol, Sessions, Barnes, Scola, Watson, Simmons, Jaric, House, Hart, Giricek

I expect every GM to find a player in the 2nd round in 10 years. Everyone wants to give him credit for finding Memo, but he deserves blame for picking Sheed over him. He decided to go for upside with Darko (over Melo or Bosh), but not with Memo. I think we were all fine with keeping Sheed for the most part (kstat was the only one saying Memo was a 20-10 type player), but you can't give him credit for guys that pan out somewhere else when there were ways to keep that player if he got creative.

Might as well give the Lions credit for drafting Jeff Hartings too (pro bowler after leaving).

lol this team doesn't make it back to the finals in 05 w/o Sheed.

But Dumars should be blamed for the choice.

lol this team doesn't make it back to the finals in 05 w/o Sheed.

But Dumars should be blamed for the choice.
I said everyone but kstat basically was good with keeping Sheed (including myself). I wasn't arguing that he made the wrong choice then. I'm just saying why are we giving him all this credit for finding Memo when clearly he didn't think he'd end up this good back in 2004? If he really felt that high on Memo he could have moved other contracts in order to keep him. He didn't because he also thought Darko would pan out up front, and he also thought they wouldn't choke the next few years in their finals quests.

Even now you still keep Sheed.

No question about it.

I'm going to stop reading P + Chris jizzum fests.

So terrible.

WTFtranslator:


I'm going to tell you again we keep Sheed, even though you never suggested we shouldn't have.

We're both in agreement, but I'll continue to hammer home a point that you said was agreed upon by %99 of this board.

I'm tired of reading P + Chris questioning Joe's sainthood so I'm going to ignore all posts by them.

Even though Joe could have kept him, we should just be happy he drafted him to begin with. We should be happy he found talent and not care that he didn't keep it (like AA as well).
I don't know what the other contracts were at the time, but I'm sure he could have moved Z or another player with a pick to clear space if he was really that high on Memo.

You don't remember the situation but you're sure you could have changed it.

I mean.

And no one calls him a saint, but most of us don't spend 5 years recreating the same thread over and over again making a point that everyone already agrees with.

We traded Z and most of our picks to get Sheed. Even so, he only made half of what Memo got.

No. I said I don't remember the contracts of the rest of our role players and who would have needed to be moved to create space for Memo.

We let Memo walk because we did not have his bird rights (needed to exceed the cap to keep him). What I don't know is the contracts of the other bench guys (EC, Ham, Hunter, Corliss, James, Darko, etc). I know we traded Corliss for DC. Might we have been able to dump him on a team with cap space to have Memo space? Hard to say now.

There are always ways to make space, it just depends on what price you are willing to pay (assets given up). Clearly Joe didn't feel he was worth it.

So go ahead and keep giving him credit for Memo panning out despite that.


And no one calls him a saint, but most of us don't spend 5 years recreating the same thread over and over again making a point that everyone already agrees with.
If everyone agreed then they wouldn't be including Memo in their 'proof' of his good drafting. If everyone agreed we'd be saying he hit on Prince, probably on Stuckey, maybe on Daye and JJ...and that's about it. Everyone else was basically a bust (or marginal role player at best), or he let them go before reaping rewards.

Everyone has to agree with every dumb statement you make in order for everyone to agree Joe's not a great drafter?

We didn't trade for Coleman (who again, made no where close to Memo money) until after Memo was already a Jazz.

Care to take a third swing at it?

Picking someone actually on the team at the time would be good enough at this point. No need to dream up a realistic scenario.

There was no realistic way to keep both memo and sheed. None. I love this revisionist history.

We didn't trade for Coleman (who again, made no where close to Memo money) until after Memo was already a Jazz.


It doesn't matter when the trade happened. Joe does know the cap situation for the offseason before the season ends. He signed Dyess to a 4 year 23 mil deal to replace him. Memo signed for 6 years at 50 mil. The difference between the two contracts would have been less than 3 mil a year. DC made 4.5 mil. So tell me again why we couldn't have moved Corliss to a team with cap space (instead of bringing back DC's salary) and used the money on Memo (instead of Dyess and DC)?

The fact is that he could have done it. He felt Dyess and DC were better than Memo. PERIOD.

So don't give me this shit about dream scenarios. Joe didn't feel Memo was worth that amount, so he didn't clear the space to keep him. Again, that is fine (we still had enough to win it and they choked). Just don't give me this shit about him not having a choice.

MLE

Not to mention the fact that we only got DC for Corliss as a tax clearing move so if there was a magic team that would have taken Corliss' entire contract we clearly would have done that deal instead.

But I like how he assumes all this totally wrong shit and then uses it to build an absolutely horrible conclusion that Dumars didn't like one of the only good players he's ever drafted.

I like how rock solid positive he is about that horrible conclusion also.

I mean, Dumars stuck with Delfino, Darko and Amir forever but supposedly jettisoned Memo immediately.

Let's go back to trying to name someone who was actually on the team at the right time. Baby steps.

Yeah, we acquired DC knowing he was done. That's why we wanted him, to keep us under the tax.

.

I'm going to stop reading P + Chris jizzum fests.

This is a topic about Joe's Drafting ability.

You should have known (and did know) that at some stage I would blast Joe for his poor record.

Stop whining about how terrible it is for you to read someone else's opinion.

We all gotta read your opinion - and I don't whine about it.

Stop whining about how terrible it is for you to read someone else's opinion.

We all gotta read your opinion - and I don't whine about it.

:kennythejet:

Joe Dumars' NBA Draft track record is in the middle of the pack compared to other current general managers (http://blog.mlive.com/fullcourtpress/2010/03/joe_dumars_draft_history.html)

Damn it Gla!

lol

Bullshit. What 9 picks have been "solid" for him?

These are the only possible ones to consider solid:
Mehmet Okur, Tayshaun Prince, Carlos Delfino, Jason Maxiell, Amir Johnson, Rodney Stuckey, Arron Afflalo, Austin Daye, Jonas Jerebko

That's 9 and some of those are pretty borderline. He has 3 listed as up in the air (are JJ or Daye in that?).

The other problem with this is it doesn't factor draft position. He has O'Conner rated the same percentage, but he only had one lotto pick in that time frame (Deron Williams). He had the 14th pick once. Everything else is 18+. Dumars has had 6 picks 15 or better to the 2 O'Conner has had. No way they can have the same draft rating.

^ I Agree ^

Half of those "solid picks" aren't even starters and half of them are already gone. Not very impressive.

^ I Agree ^

Half of those "solid picks" aren't even starters and half of them are already gone. Not very impressive.

I wouldn't necessarily expect a generic "solid pick" to be anything more than a rotation player.

yeah, in the late 20's the best I hope for is a rotation player. I don't think Max, Delfino, AA and certainly Prince were misses because maybe better players went later. If you get solid contributions from late firsts I think that is all you can ask.

Joe's problem has always been the top half of the first round. None of those picks are solid based on position. Jury is out on Daye and I'm still not sure Stuckey is solid until he develops a jumper or becomes a solid PG (either one would be fine).

yeah, in the late 20's the best I hope for is a rotation player. I don't think Max, Delfino, AA and certainly Prince were misses because maybe better players went later. If you get solid contributions from late firsts I think that is all you can ask.

Joe's problem has always been the top half of the first round. None of those picks are solid based on position. Jury is out on Daye and I'm still not sure Stuckey is solid until he develops a jumper or becomes a solid PG (either one would be fine).

wouldn't hurt if he stopped having seizures either.

Alistair Overeem seem looks pretty regular to me.

wouldn't hurt if he stopped having seizures either.

:insensitive:

Atticus.

Glan, this new shtick is actually funny. I like it.

Glan, this new shtick is actually funny. I like it.

Thanks!

I just wish Atticus was around to see it, but he's not here much anymore, largely because of threads like this.

Thanks!

I just wish Atticus was around to see it, but he's not here much anymore, largely because of threads like this.

Even funnier.

This thread is interesting, truth be told. I probably spend the most time here around the off-season and draft time, and this year March/April qualifies as both in my mind.

Lately, I've been lurking a lot more than posting. My frustrations with the season didn't encourage posting, and things finally boiled over for me with the Stuckey incident, as I said, mostly because I had just lost a good buddy to a basketball related death that was strikingly similar to Stuckey's episode. The positive of all of this: the :insensitive: shtick!
WTFDetroit really needed something to replace the :we: bit, and this'll probably hold :us: over for a while.

And to chime in about Joe's drafting, I've always thought that he gets too emotional about it and tries to will an undersized or underskilled player into becoming a great player.

kidding aside, sorry about your friend.