http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullColumn.php?id=2492

Good on him.

Those teams are pretty contrasted. The Sophomore team has a big size advantage (3 legit bigs in Love, Lopez and Gasol). The rookies have two PFs (Blair and Gibson) and a combo forward (JJ). Not sure how they are going to stop them in the post.

They'll have to try and run the Soph big men into the ground.

This is not a slow down and feed the post game, not a big concern.

I've never watched it as you can tell (because Joe screws up draft picks and there is never anybody to watch). I might now just to see JJ.

Don't know why I didn't watch last year with Stuckey in it.

Tay was in it one year too, right?

I seem to recall that the game basically turned into a dunk contest.

I think the rookies will pull the upset. Everyone on the rookie squad minus Blair can run all game. Sophomores have three slow-footed guys who are going to get tons of PT and aren't all that athletic in Lopez, Gasol, and Love.

Tay was in it one year too, right?

I seem to recall that the game basically turned into a dunk contest.
Jerebko joins Rodney Stuckey, Tayshaun Prince, Zeljko Rebraca, :mateen: and Lindsey Hunter as the only Pistons ever selected to play in the game, which has been in existence since 1994.
http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2010/01/jonas_jerebko_selected_to_play.html

Darko didn't make the team?

^ He barely made our team after camp.

They had a rule against kids who put tape on their ears.

Jonas might be the last Piston at an allstar game for quite some time...

Jerebko joins Rodney Stuckey, Tayshaun Prince, Zeljko Rebraca, and Lindsey Hunter as the only Pistons ever selected to play in the game, which has been in existence since 1994.
http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2010/01/jonas_jerebko_selected_to_play.html
I find that disturbing. First round picks since 1994:

95: 8th pick, traded for #18 (Ratliff) and #19 (Childress)
96: 26th pick (JYD)
97: 19th pick (Pollard)
98: 11th pick (Bonzi), to Portland for 1999 pick
99: 17th pick, to ATL for Augmon/Long. 27th pick (POR), to ATL for Lattener
00: 14th pick (Cleaves)
01: 9th pick (White)
02: 23rd pick (Tay)
03: 2nd (Darko). 25th (Delfino)
04: 25th pick (gone in Sheed deal)
05: 26th pick (Max)
06: 30th pick (traded with EC for Arroyo)
07: 15th pick (Stuckey), 27th (AA)
08: 29th pick, to Seattle for Sharpe and Plaisted
09: 15th pick (Daye)

Average draft position: #17 (in 15 drafts)
Worthwhile players listed: Tay, Sheed (via trade), Stuckey. Probably Daye.

And you people wonder why Pharaoh and I harp on his bad drafting so much.

Will Laimbeer play for Minnesota in the Shooting Stars competition?

Ratliff and JYD were good picks. Fino was hurt. We swapped away a bunch of the rest. 5 is about where we should be given our finishes.

I find that disturbing. First round picks since 1994:

95: 8th pick, traded for #18 (Ratliff) and #19 (Childress)
96: 26th pick (JYD)
97: 19th pick (Pollard)
98: 11th pick (Bonzi), to Portland for 1999 pick
99: 17th pick, to ATL for Augmon/Long. 27th pick (POR), to ATL for Lattener
00: 14th pick (Cleaves)
01: 9th pick (White)
02: 23rd pick (Tay)
03: 2nd (Darko). 25th (Delfino)
04: 25th pick (gone in Sheed deal)
05: 26th pick (Max)
06: 30th pick (traded with EC for Arroyo)
07: 15th pick (Stuckey), 27th (AA)
08: 29th pick, to Seattle for Sharpe and Plaisted
09: 15th pick (Daye)

Average draft position: #17 (in 15 drafts)
Worthwhile players listed: Tay, Sheed (via trade), Stuckey. Probably Daye.

And you people wonder why Pharaoh and I harp on his bad drafting so much.

6 guys made the team in 15. 6 years of which we were either in the Finals or in the Conference finals. That doesn't sound like failure to me.

that article is incorrect. They're the only Pistons ROOKIES ever to play in the game.

Of course, Tayshaun competed in the game as a 2nd year player.

I was joking about Darko btw. He still wouldn't make the rookie squad.

6 guys made the team in 15. 6 years of which we were either in the Finals or in the Conference finals. That doesn't sound like failure to me.


Pharaoh is gonna be so pissed at you.

6 guys made the team in 15. 6 years of which we were either in the Finals or in the Conference finals. That doesn't sound like failure to me.

First off, Joe became Exec in 2000. So Hunter and Rebraca don't count.

He only gets credit for Tay, JJ and Stuckey.

That is 3 guys in 10 years of drafting (average of 16-17th pick). Two lotto picks (#2 and #9) and 3 picks on fringe of lotto (#14, #15, #15).

Not good.

You forgot :mateen:

4 guys in 10 years, 6 of which the team was in the ECF. Every other year one of the guys he's picked is considered one of the 9 best rookies or sophomores in the game while his team is dominating most of the league. Like I said, that sounds like success to me. At least based on this fucked up scale.

Last year was the first year Tay didn't make the conference finals. Joe can't draft, but apparently he's not bad at assembling a core (until recently)
Must have been John Hammond

Umm, do we really have to do this again?

Try as I might to articulate it in such a way that I never have to attempt this again this never seems to die. It's cool though - I enjoy going through this every so often.

Makes me remember why I'm so fucking pissed off about our scouts, us trading away The Enforcer Double A for nothing and ... here's the essay:

My issue isn't with who we picked every single Draft. Most of Joe's guys are serviceable and the ones who weren't have been traded away for other parts that were at the very least serviceable.

My issue is why we miss the really good players every Draft?

Start @ 2000 - Who thought Mateen was the BPA at our pick? Sure, we needed a PG and he was one but the team at that point sucked except for Hill and Stackhouse so in theory we needed everything except a SF and SG.

Or, if you wanna play it that way - the theory is that Joe picked Mateen for the good ol' "home town kid makes good" story. Wouldn't Morris Peterson have served that purpose, playing a 6th Man role behind Hill and Stackhouse?

And to add to the theory behind picking Peterson - Hill was about to be a free agent. IF he bolted (and we all knew there was a good chance he would) wouldn't Peterson have been the "better" pick?

We also passed on Turkoglu but at the time, and for the feel good story Peterson should have been the pick over Cleaves.

2001: Rodney White had a lot of hype around him at the time (he was supposed to be a scorer ala Glenn Robinson). So we took him and he didn't pan out at all. No big deal, right? Shit happens.

But we missed out of Joe Johnson, Richard Jefferson, Troy Murphy, Zach Randolph (would his career have been different if he stayed "home"?). That's 4 pretty good players we missed. If this was the a rare situation you could argue that the scouts merely had a bad year but it continues...

2002: (just not here lol) The organisation finally hits the jackpot, getting a steal in Tayshaun who would not only go on to be a contributor on a title team but a quality jack-of-all-trades type.

2003: Fucking Hell! We couldn't have fucked this up more if we tried. Picking the super-duper hype machine Darko over Bosh, Melo, Wade, Kaman. Darko was a bum and what did we get for him? Arroyo and Cato! I'd LMAO @ Joe Dumars if it didn't suck so bad.

And if fucking up the #2 pick wasn't enough we then went and drafted Carlos Delfino at 25. The guy had injury issues when he was drafted.

At the time there were only 29 teams in the league. 3 of the 4 guys drafted after Delfino? Perkins, Barbosa and Josh Howard. I'm not gonna sit here and say we should have taken Delfino when those 3 guys were still on the board and anyone who thinks we should have is nuts

2004: 25th pick (gone in Sheed deal) - thank God, though Kevin Martin went #26. LMAO - I couldnt resist

2005: Like Freddy the Nightmare returns. Maxiell isn't a complete waste of a pick - the guy is at the very least a serviceable role player.

Would anyone prefer David Lee? Or Brandon Bass? Or Monta Ellis? Or Louis Williams? Or Andray Blatche?

2006: Traded away - again Thank God. So far with 6 picks only Tayshaun has done anything! Not a good strike rate.

2007: It's way too soon to tell if Joe made the right move drafting both Stuckey and Afflalo but so far it's looking like Joe did his regular serviceable job.

Why the fuck they traded Afflalo so they could have more money to sign Chris Wilcox is beyond me. When teams are looking to make a trade cheap, young, potential players are coveted. And we gave one away to sign Chris Wilcox! Stupid fucking move.

And only made worse because we do such a poor job of drafting in the fucking first place we should hold on to any good young talent we manage to find.

2008: Again, too soon to tell but WTF? Mario Chalmers, DeAndre Jordan, Luc Mbah a Moute, Chris Douglas-Roberts, my man Nathan Jawai, Goran "The Dragon" Dragic, Bill Walker, Malik Hairston, Richard "Dont Call Me Jimmy" Hendrix all would have at least made me care a little.

2009: Daye might be an All-Star, he might not be. He's likely to be at least serviceable. That's how Joe rolls.

But how many of you are wishing Joe drafted Ty Lawson? Or maybe you've taken a liking to Omri Cassipi, Eric Maynor, DaJuan Blair, Marcus Thornton or even Chase Budinger and think they'll end up being "better" than Daye?

The odds are against Daye and Stuckey, though. Since the year 2000 Joe has used 10 first round picks. Only Tayshaun Prince can be classified as being better than serviceable IMO.

1 out of 10 is a fucking terrible strike rate. You would think through sheer dumb luck we would have stumbled our way into a stud with at least 1 of those 9 other picks (Could Daye or Stuckey be that stud?)

But fuck it - beating a dead horse is boring and the majority don't read it cause we've discussed this to death.

Oh, and full fucking credit to Joe for completly building not only a Championship team but a team that stayed in the top fucking 4 every single season for 6 straight years.

IIRC every single player on the first ECF team was put here by Joe, so no previous GM can claim any credit at all (not like the Bulls since Krause didn't draft Jordan)

That's pretty fucking impressive.

You know what makes it more impressive?

He can't draft for shit!

He's not like the guys in MIN, OKC or MEM. Those teams suck for years in an attempt to "draft" their core and "develop" into a winning team.

Joe says "Fuck that! Get me real players now!"

That takes guts, that takes courage.

To trade away a "potential star" for the ability to compete night in and night out for the next 4 years is a hard sell to many fans.

People do wanna win now - but they want to win with the flashy fuckers found in the Top 5 of the Lottery.

I just hope that Joe not only remembers that he sucks at drafting but remembers where he left his courage and his guts - cause if he can find those 2 qualities before the deadline the Pistons might be welcoming Amare into the fold.

While I'm no fan of Amare, seeing this team run and gun and make some noise in the playoffs would be fucking sweet

And if Amare wants to take a pay cut to leave us for New Jersey or New York (teams that have been in the Lotto for years and have very little to show for it) then fuck him. Let him walk and pray that karma takes a baseball bat to his good knee

Every single team could do that besides maybe the Spurs, so it's moot. But we've told you that before, and you just don't care about the reality of the NBA.

So in reality every single NBA franchise has used at least 10 first round picks since 2000 and only 1 of those picks is better than serviceable?

Bullshit and if you want me to go through every fucking team I can.

But you're smarter than that, aren't ya Herm. You're just still hung up on me mentioing all the guys we coulda had.

Stop worrying about that and start wondering why we ALWAYS end up picking a serviceable player.

No studs, but no bums either - just middle of the road types.

Nothing outstanding (except maybe Tay) though

Every team has missed a multitude of guys that they would trade their guy for in a second. Every. Team.

Every single team could do that besides maybe the Spurs, so it's moot. But we've told you that before, and you just don't care about the reality of the NBA.

This.

Every year.

You forgot :mateen:

4 guys in 10 years, 6 of which the team was in the ECF. Every other year one of the guys he's picked is considered one of the 9 best rookies or sophomores in the game while his team is dominating most of the league. Like I said, that sounds like success to me. At least based on this fucked up scale.

No, I didn't . I'm only counting players that amounted to anything. If Darko made the rookie team that wouldn't mean he wasn't a bust.

Face it, 3 decent players (and the jury is out on last year still, but I'm pleased so far). That's it.

Every single team could do that besides maybe the Spurs, so it's moot. But we've told you that before, and you just don't care about the reality of the NBA.
Bullshit. The Lakers probably have the worst draft position over the last 10 years (only one really down year).

They drafted Devon George, Cook, Walton, Vujacic, Bynum, Turiaf, Wafer, Farmar, and Marc Gasol.

Bynum was #10. The next best pick was #19 in that span.

Not all those guys are great, but that is a better success rate with much worse picks than we've had. There is one all star type, a couple young good players, and the rest are solid role players.

Herm, it's (likely) true that every single team has missed at least 1 quality player every single Draft.

But I'm damn sure few other teams have the shitty 1 for 10 strike rate that Dumars has in the first round.

Let's take the Lakers (since Chris posted some of their picks)

Their "Tayshaun"? Andrew Bynum

The rest of those guys? At the very least they were/are all serviceable (Gasol was a second rounder - it doesn't count).

Joe, with better picks can't say that. We had Cleaves, White and Darko - all super busts picked in the top half of the first round!

But whatever - it's the same old story.

Everyone seems quite happy for this organisation to waste draft pick after draft pick. I just wanna find out what the franchise is doing to correct the early mistakes that cost this fucking team significantly (at least 1 more title IMO)

Now if I want to be I have to admit that recent returns on Draft Night have improved which suggests that something within the organisation has been changed.

I wonder what they changed?

Time.

So it was all just trial and error in the early 2000's?

Surely they hired someone new, did something differently the last couple of years compared to back in the day, right?

So it was all just trial and error in the early 2000's?




Just as it is for every team now.

What?

Teams spend millions of dollars scouting a ton of players and you want me to believe in the end they just guess?

Dude!

That's all kinds of fucked up, right there. (not saying you're wrong)

IF I ran a team any potential draftees would get the complete FBI treatment. I'm talking profilers, genetic docs, the whole 9 yards.

If you expect me to give you a million bucks then motherfucker you better believe I'm gonna make damn certain you ain;t no lazy cunt or some crackhead wanna be that only made it to the league cause you had a 49 inch vertical and a silky jumper

And if teams don't do that they're fucking stupid. Handing anyone millions of dollars should be a real fucking problem for owners.

All the teams do it all that besides the genetic stuff (I think). Teams still take Brandan Wright over Joakim Noah because of "ceiling", and still skip DeJuan Blair because all that medical review you wanted to do said he wouldn't be able to play for long.

Some dudes think they made it when they get 10 million dollars. Some guys think they made it when they get into the HOF. I bet Jerry West still doesn't think he made it. Not sure how many 1 hours interviews it takes with a cat to find that out, but I bet you don't get enough once their agent trains them on how to answer common questions.

All the teams do it all that besides the genetic stuff (I think). Teams still take Brandan Wright over Joakim Noah because of "ceiling", and still skip DeJuan Blair because all that medical review you wanted to do said he wouldn't be able to play for long.


we're not saying other teams don't screw up. But those teams do hit on other players. You mentioned wright. Sure, the Warriors probably wish they had Noah instead. But guess what, they did pretty good on Curry, Randolph, Beidrins, Murphy, Dunleavy and Pietrus in the last 10 years. That doesn't count Arenas and Ellis (2nd rounders). I haven't looked at every team to see if they missed as much as Joe has, but I did look at the team that had the worst draft position over the last 10 years (Lakers). As you saw even they had more 'luck' than we did.

You guy continue to make excuses for his drafting even though no team fails at the rate we have there. If so, find us a team. Stop making general statements and show some proof.

Quick tip Chris. When discussing draft records, the words "did pretty good" and "Mike Dunleavy" are not to share the same sentence. Cool?

Most of the guys you just listed are considered flops.

Max is every bit as good as Pietrus or Dunleavy, and they were lottery.

Awful job.

Dumars drafted good enough to backup the starters we had. Unfortunately he couldn't find a coach that could get through to our big headed starters once they won a title.

All of our starters are still in the league. He put a championship team together, but couldn't find another coach after Brown. Then he blew it up and I guess it exposed that he was drafting backups.

Dumar's draft record is bad, but at least say why. And it doesn't take a 2000 word essay.

Darko

White


There ya go. We get RJ and Bosh or Parker and Melo.....we aren't scuttling along like bottom feeders. It's very little to do with Max and Fino. They were about as good as a player in that spot should be frankly.

It's an old story, it's been told, let's move on.

Let's take the Lakers (since Chris posted some of their picks)

Their "Tayshaun"? Andrew Bynum
Bynum was a #10 lottery pick... not exactly a fair comparison to Tayshaun at #23. Hell, the #10 pick for Tayshaun's draft year was Caron Butler.

No, I didn't . I'm only counting players that amounted to anything. If Darko made the rookie team that wouldn't mean he wasn't a bust.

Face it, 3 decent players (and the jury is out on last year still, but I'm pleased so far). That's it.

Way to fucking change the criteria to tell your story then. When you abandon the entire topic of the thread up to that point. You need to tell people that.

Way to fucking change the criteria to tell your story then. When you abandon the entire topic of the thread up to that point. You need to tell people that.
I never changed the criteria since I never agreed that making the rookie team equates to a successful pick.

This thread was started, you posted the list of Pistons players that have made it. I said I found that sad. I proceeded to list all of Joe's picks and the lack of success and said "and you wonder why Pharaoh and I rip his drafting all the time"

I never once said that I considered rookie/soph teams a measure of success.

Bottom line. Joe's drafting has been shitty overall. You people continue to pick apart the comparisons rather than admit it. I've called you out many times to find me a team with less quality drafted players than us. I'm still waiting. You lazy punks won't bother. You just try to dissect our words and turn shit around. Get off your ass and find me tangible proof that his drafting isn't shitty.

You people continue to pick apart the comparisons rather than admit it.

LOL@ you people

EVERYONE KNOWS HE'S BAD AT DRAFTING!

NO ONE SAYS HE'S GOOD AT IT.

You and P go on these crusades like you're the only one's who've discovered gold and have to try and convince everyone it has value.

Who the fuck was saying he was a good drafter kid? We were discussing using the rookie/sophmore game as a basis for judging picks and I said if you do it makes Joe look good.

If everyone knows it, why play your damn games? Just say "you are right, it is sad" and move on.

If everyone admits it, why are there 3 pages of people making excuses? I bet if there was a poll on here about his drafting, there would be more C's and B's than D's and F's.

You and P go on these crusades like you're the only one's who've discovered gold and have to try and convince everyone it has value.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_CKAZlFFTr3U/SKOYlN4S0yI/AAAAAAAAANw/4D2zO5a0jdA/s400/leprechaun+amateur+sketch.png

Um, if I discovered gold I wouldn't tell you fuckers.

But the Draft issue has gone on for years and some people still believe that Joe isn't that bad when it comes to scouting/drafting.

1 out of 10 first round picks since 2000 and only Tayshaun and maybe Stuckey are better than "role players"

Given the fact we've had high Lotto picks, late Lotto picks, mid first round picks and late first round picks one would ASSUME Joe would have stumbled into something great with one of his other picks.

He didn't/hasn't (whatever)

When we were contending it wasn't a problem for many because... well - we were a contender. But IMO it hurt our run and has certainly hurt our chances of a quick rebuild now.

Quick question: If we had kept Afflalo, took Lawson and not Daye and also took Blair not Summers how much easier would it be to move Rip and/or Tay for a big man?

Given the injury issues we've had I think it's fair to say those 3 guys would have got some serious run by this stage of the season.

But I'm done with this.

Who gives a fuck if Joe can't draft? It's only basketball - there are more important things in life.

I think Joe has done a pretty good job at drafting.

If we had kept Afflalo
Hey, didn't Joe draft that guy?

Hey, didn't Joe draft that guy?

Green text or not...

Hey, didn't Joe give that guy away so we could sign Chris Wilcox?

And Mo - I'd ask you to explain but I'm so far past the point of caring about this drafting business I wouldn't even read it.

Hey, didn't Joe give that guy away so we could sign Chris Wilcox?
Hey, isn't that guy starting next to Billups in Denver right now?
:emo kid:

And Mo - I'd ask you to explain but I'm so far past the point of caring about this drafting business I wouldn't even read it.

Here's all the explainin' you need: He didn't draft Maciej Lampe.

A+ in my book.

He didn't draft Maciej Lampe.


Might as well have.

What would he draft a magic lamp for?

over/under on big jerebko dunks in this game: 2

i'm taking the over.