Vs. Jerebko?

Just wondering what you guys think.

JJ has made Prince redundant and Gordon has made RIP redundant, we certainly dont need both Prince AND Rip anymore, one has to go and if we can get anything good for Prince when he's healthy, you have to do it...

JJ has been a great joy to watch, he always give you 110% effort, he's already OK defensivly and gets better on offense too, he already proved he can be our next starting SF for a loooong, long time

btw: we need a good nickname for Jonas

Jonas already has a fucking nickname:

Jonas "The Walls of" Jerebko!

Or Double J. Or J Double. Or J Squared.

But, yes - the guy has certainly shown that he is capable of being a starting SF in this league.

I doubt we'd get much for Prince now anyway so we'd be better off not putting him on the block until he actually has an expiring contract after July 1st, 2010.

His expiring, plus our 2010 pick could land us a dude in a sign and trade.

It does seem like Jerebko gives us almost everything that Prince does (sans experience, and we haven't seen him take his man down into the post very much, but Prince really doesn't do that much anymore, either) at about 10% of the cost.

He can defend multiple positions, especially big SFs, and do it fairly well. He has good range on his jumper, and he's certainly no less consistent than Tay.

Let's allow the league some time to get a scouting report on the kid. SF is a scorers spot on most teams, I'm gonna have to see a lot more of him working in an offense vs. being a garbage man before I'm going to presume him to be a starter in the league.

Yeah...can we give it a season.
In the slim chance we make the playoffs, lets see what he does there too.

slim chance?

We're 1/2 a game out right now with half our rotation.

slim chance?

We're 1/2 a game out right now with half our rotation.

Lower Standards = Higher Rewards!

I like JJ because he tries like fuck and is only getting better offensviley. Defensivel,y hes capacle of defending and sticking in the lineup!

Let's allow the league some time to get a scouting report on the kid. SF is a scorers spot on most teams, I'm gonna have to see a lot more of him working in an offense vs. being a garbage man before I'm going to presume him to be a starter in the league.
Thank You for a slice of reality.

Tayshaun Prince has his name in the NBA record books for consistency and durability. Jerebko's career has lasted what, 5 weeks? Come on.

"how much better" is not an outrageous question or anything. You'd think that someone shot your dog, lol. It wasn't meant to be a career comparison, it's a skill set comparison.

Thank You for a slice of reality.
Yea some of the more crazy people here need it badly. I prefer that team on opening night over this current team easily. We're still not efficient on offense, play too much one on one, and don't have enough ball movement. I'm cool with getting Jerebko, Daye, and Summers some valuable minutes while guys are injured, but why put any of them o a pedestal that they can't live up to right now.


It wasn't meant to be a career comparison, it's a skill set comparison.
Doesn't stop it from being fairly ridiculous and unfair to Jonas. He's not matching Tay in skill set. You're measuring Scrapper who can't shoot most nights against Tay? I appreciate the kids hustle, but you'd have to not be watching the games to think to even compare him to tay in any light at this moment.

Thanks for the moment of clarity, as always. I especially appreciate and look forward to the "you're not watching the games" blast. It's fast becoming a WTF staple.

Thanks for the moment of clarity, as always. I especially appreciate and look forward to the "you're not watching the games" blast. It's fast becoming a WTF staple.
I apologize, should i just call you crazy for seeing merit in a comparison and leave you to bask in that? Be sarcastic if you will, but comparing Jonas to Tay is an insult to Tay and unfair to Jonas. Jonas does well for who he is, but he's not even close to Tay at this moment. If you saw something in the games you watched to bring more merit to this, then by all means explain.

Prince is obviously better than Yonas, but I don't think the gap between them is large enough that, upon Prince's return as the 4th/5th option w/ ~8 shot attempts per game, the team is going to start winning at a +55% clip again.

If you're going to suck, then suck hard. Always been my motto. because im a giant flaming homo lol

I'd describe the gap this way, minutes are the ultimate coach's currency in the nba and with both players healthy Prince's minutes are not threatened by JJ.

Not that I need Jerebko to be that good to be excited about him. As long as he's at least good enough that coaches don't break out in hives at the thought of giving Tayshaun a breather, he fills a massive void that's been a problem on :our: roster for years.

So I'm pretty high on JJ and I want Prince back healthy this season. Peace on earth would be nice too. Also a pony.

Hasn't princes ability to shine always been hindered due to the fact that he is usually the 4th or 5th option on the floor at any given time? I mean he has shined before when others were out with injuries for short times.

Can someone with Insider tell me where JJ is currently ranked by Thorpe, and if possible, post the JJ comments here?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/rookies/rankings

#19
Nov. 11: Jerebko has moved into the starting lineup, replacing the injured Tayshaun Prince. And he had his best game of the young season with 10 points and 5 rebounds against Philadelphia. He's been a pleasant surprise for Detroit.

I'd describe the gap this way, minutes are the ultimate coach's currency in the nba and with both players healthy Prince's minutes are not threatened by JJ.

If only minutes were a true measurement of/reward for performance. Silly things like reputation, loyalty and contract dollars often get in the way.

Don't forget how Prince got his chance, as we may end up seeing history repeat itself in an ironic fashion.

And don't twist that into meaning JJ is already better than Prince, but for the comparable perfomance he's giving us, Tay is hardly worth 10x the salary.

edit: Thanks Chris.

Draft Express Profile
Best Case: Matt Harpring
Worst Case: Matt Barnes

lol

Tay is hardly worth 10x the salary.


23x, actually.

Hasn't princes ability to shine always been hindered due to the fact that he is usually the 4th or 5th option on the floor at any given time? I mean he has shined before when others were out with injuries for short times.
Yes, he has.

I think Tay's biggest problem is that he has no real backup, especially when the playoffs hit. Backing up Tay has involved either having some undersized SG trying to cover for him (Rip, Afflalo, Delfino, MoEvans) or having actual SF-sized/skilled folks who can't really crack a playoff rotation at SF (Hayes, Superdupe, Herrmann, Amir). This feeds into Tay's natural passiveness.

Jerebko's backup SF coverage is probably is certainly as good as 2008 when Hayes was a regular-season player. Tay was our best player throughout the first couple rounds of the playoffs, but wore down from heavy minutes when it finally occured to Flip that Hayes can't defend. Were Jerebko to backup Tay, he'd be the best backup Tay's had since Corliss.

And don't twist that into meaning JJ is already better than Prince

Well, the only other option is to understand it as saying Prince is only as good as Curry.

http://pistonsnationblog.com/2009/12/07/double-j-or-tay-tay/

I voted on his poll just to spite you Gla.

When Tay comes back he should be the starter. That being said, I wouldn't hesitate to move him if that is what it took to get a legit center.

Honestly this really isn't a comparison as tayshaun is a much more complete player on both ends of the floor while jerebko only really brings energy and competence on the defensive end.

JJ along with ben wallace (and others that are now currently in the lineup such as maxiell and atkins) are offensive albatrosses that severely hampers the starting unit from having any kind of consistency on the offensive end to begin games (as was the case in chicago last week and will be the case again until things change).

Everything jerebko is currently getting on the offensive end at this time is a result of him not being guarded. Defenses are urging jerebko and wallace (and atkins and maxiell) to beat them. You can't do that with prince. You can tell the coaching staff has urged jerebko to be more aggressive on offense because one simply HAS to be aggressive on offense when no one is guarding you especially at the 3 position, a position where it’s easy to find scorers. If you're not, you're hurting your team.

Throwing Tayshaun (and Rip) into the starting mix obviously adds more offensive punch (and therefore more players with the ability to make plays and attract defenses) and has the added benefit of resulting in stuckey not needing to force the issue as much as he currently does, something he's not good at..

Stuckey (or whomever is playing the 1) essentially becomes a better and more efficient player by default since he has other guys he needs to get the ball to (and can do something with it, something jerebko can’t accomplish at this time)

So is jerebko's defense that much better than prince's at the 3 or is tayshaun a detriment to the team guarding the opposing 3 because these are the only real reasons to even consider playing jerebko over Tayshaun. And to say tayshaun is a detriment to the team guarding his position is silly.

I believe the one-dimensional players like a jerebko (energy, hustle guy that can guard multiple positions), a gordon (a shooter) and bynum (quick, shoot first guard) need to be the guys coming off the bench and have their playing time be determined based on matchups, effectiveness, etc. It also results in the team being infinitely deeper and better.

And don't twist that into meaning JJ is already better than Prince, but for the comparable perfomance he's giving us, Tay is hardly worth 10x the salary.

edit: I was going to say some stuff but nevermind, just see yargs' post.

I think we can all remember all of those double digit rebounding games where Tay put up 17 in a half.

In my mind, it's less about Prince vs Jerebko and more about can we trade Prince, get an asset, and will there be a detrimental impact at SF?

I think if a deal presents itself, we move Prince in a heartbeat. Maybe we get Kaman for Prince (just thinking out loud) and bump Jerebko into the starting five with Kaman.

In that scenario, Jerebko has certainly made Prince expendable.

After seeing Jerebko last night, i gotta say you guys smoke crack, i don't want that guy starting all year. And it's not a knock on him really. Just the fact that we are barely beating these chump teams and if anything it proves to me that we need Prince and Rip for that matter. I know people dont care about anything but getting a Center, but imo we have a Center in Ben this year, worry about Center next year, what we don't have is enough firepower and capable scoring on offense. Get Tay, Rip, and Ben Gordon back, then revisit this premature notion.

In my mind, it's less about Prince vs Jerebko and more about can we trade Prince, get an asset, and will there be a detrimental impact at SF?

I think if a deal presents itself, we move Prince in a heartbeat. Maybe we get Kaman for Prince (just thinking out loud) and bump Jerebko into the starting five with Kaman.

In that scenario, Jerebko has certainly made Prince expendable.

I agree, no doubt prince goes if joe d. can get something in return for him that might be considered a valuable championship piece/asset 2-3 years down the road. The trouble is what can this team get for prince right now? Eventually they'll have to showcase him to other teams by having him play big minutes (and do well in these minutes) to prove that his back injury is a thing of the past.

With that being said, I have a fun conspiracy theory to throw out. I personally think that Rip and Tayshaun aren't really that hurt and are being given a nice, extended break from NBA regular season action by Joe D. for these reasons:

1. They both have logged thousands of minutes and played in hundreds of games over the years due to their extended runs in the playoffs. Each player can only log so many minutes and play in so many games before their bodies break down. Why subject them to further wear and tear?

2. This is a rebuilding year in that the pistons aren't going to compete for a championship.

3. The team drafts around 10 small forwards this summer and signs a shooting guard, 2 positions currently filled on the roster by proven championship-level-winning-players, not to mention they also have 2 shoot-first PGs on the club. By not playing Rip and Tay the teams gets to see what it has and gives them the time to develop with an eye towards the future, something this franchise hasn't been able to do for a long time since they aren't playing for a championship.

4. Regular season games are semi-meaningless in terms of wins or losses for non-championship-level teams, especially games early in the season and in a conference where a losing record still gets you in the playoffs. The spurs tank the regular season every year knowing it's best to peak in the second half and during the playoffs.

Why play rip and tayshaun in november when this team could get really good come april with the added depth of tay and rip being back in the rotation AND younger players that have developed and proven they can compete at this level?

The Pistons are 19th in defensive rating but 5th in opponent points against.

Why?

Pace. 30th out of 30.

We need Tay and Rip back so someone besides Stuckey will be guarding the arc.

Right now we are slowing the ball down as much as we can and eating up every rebound we see (+3.14 rebound differencial, 4th best in the league from a team with a very thin front line).

I'm just going to admit up front that these numbers are not only a very small sample size, but they're probably skewed a bit. I don't care, they are fun to look at and they're factual.


JJ (last 6 games)
13.7 pts
7.7 rebs
54.5 3FG% (6/11)
52.6 FG% (30/57)
34.5 MPG

Tay (3 games played this season)
12.3 pts
5.0 rebs
25.0 3FG% (1/4)
48.4 FG% (15/31)
38.7 MPG

And two of those 6 games for JJ were very poor shooting performances.

I'm just going to admit up front that these numbers are not only a very small sample size, but they're probably skewed a bit. I don't care, they are fun to look at and they're factual.



And two of those 6 games for JJ were very poor shooting performances.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/LongElegantLegs/CaptainHyperbole.jpg
No respect for this agenda, you're doing a crappy job of defending it too. Maybe you should start a Flip Murray thread or a Earl Watson thread.

Boo hoo

:emo kid:

To me JJ is more of a 4 than a 3 in terms of his skillsets, definitely offensively.

To me he plays like a hybrid of Robert Horry and Dennis Rodman (more horry than rodman but a better rebounder but lacking big shot bob's ability to drive daggers into the hearts of his opponents), in that both were versatile on the defensive end and could cover just about anyone at a very high level but were limited in terms of what they could do with the ball on the offensive end.

And how many championships did these guys combine for? Not a bad guy to have on the roster regardless of where and when he receives his minutes.

A 3-game sample size for a guy who has 500+ games played doesn't even rate "fun to look at."

4. Regular season games are semi-meaningless in terms of wins or losses for non-championship-level teams, especially games early in the season and in a conference where a losing record still gets you in the playoffs. The spurs tank the regular season every year knowing it's best to peak in the second half and during the playoffs.


Point taken about how the spurs like to pace themselves and peak for the playoffs--but they still bang out wins in the process. Tanking is a little strong of a term for a team that won between 54 and 63 regular season games every season like clockwork for the last eight seasons.

A 3-game sample size for a guy who has 500+ games played doesn't even rate "fun to look at."


12.3 pts
5.0 rebs


12.7 pts
4.7 rebs

I apologize.

Point taken about how the spurs like to pace themselves and peak for the playoffs--but they still bang out wins in the process. Tanking is a little strong of a term for a team that won between 54 and 63 regular season games every season like clockwork for the last eight seasons.

I tend to hyperbolize at times, tanking is strong word, but you can't argue that they don't give 2 shits about the #1 seed, home court advantage, etc. therefore they don't feel the need to bring it every day during the regular season especially against crappy team. They just don't. Tim Duncan doesn't bring it every night because he doesn't have to nor should he, they are usually talented enough to win most games anyway and are going to make the playoffs, it's best to keep TD in one piece.

Watch how tim duncan usually has his best regular season games against the good teams or against division foes/message games. He's the man.

They usually do bring it every night, actually. That was the difference between them and us, especially after 2005. That's part of why Pop is a great coach. He was able to shit who was the focus in different games to give guys a rest even in games they were playing in.

I apologize, should i just call you crazy for seeing merit in a comparison and leave you to bask in that? Be sarcastic if you will, but comparing Jonas to Tay is an insult to Tay and unfair to Jonas. Jonas does well for who he is, but he's not even close to Tay at this moment. If you saw something in the games you watched to bring more merit to this, then by all means explain.

You have an inflated sense of what Tayshaun brings to the table. His defense has diminished, his jumper is inconsistent (to say the least) and he doesn't run as well as he used to. He still has a post up game (when he's motivated enough to use it) and he has a high IQ and a lot of experience which allows him to still produce decent numbers...but at this point in his career, he's a 13 point and 6 rebound type player MAX. That's not exactly anything to genuflect over.

To add no real original thought here: I'm in the Matt, Yargs, Dynamite camp. I think there's no doubt Prince is better. The idea of just trading him for a center that could work seems too much to me. I do think it would have to be a center with equal talent value, but centers are worth much more than small forwards when talent in the position is equal.

Honest question, hopefully it can be discussed without people getting defensive...

How many players can you think of with worse than or comparable career averages to Tay's that have gotten multiyear $10m+ contracts?

You can't ask it like that. Contracts scaled up every year before the recession.

Just got off thinking on a tangent ... we all know one of the reasons the 2010 free agency class will be the best, was because Bron and Wade signed 4 year extensions (so they can opt out in '10) back then instead of 5. It's been talked about before, (http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/110495-will-shorter-contract-backfire-on-lebron?time=yes) for example. It quotes Detroit News so chances are it's been talked about here too. So what are the odds that James, Wade and Bosh never make it to the market?

It's very difficult in today's NBA to pay a player what they're worth when they're worth it. Tayshaun's contract was comparable to Mike Dunleavy Jr.'s, IIRC.

You have an inflated sense of what Tayshaun brings to the table. His defense has diminished, his jumper is inconsistent (to say the least) and he doesn't run as well as he used to. He still has a post up game (when he's motivated enough to use it) and he has a high IQ and a lot of experience which allows him to still produce decent numbers...but at this point in his career, he's a 13 point and 6 rebound type player MAX. That's not exactly anything to genuflect over.
Jumper is far more dependable at every range than the kid in question as is every other facet of scoring on his part. 13 ppg is his max when he did 14 ppg last year? Funny math. But since we'll never ask him to put up much more, that's not a stretch claim whether he's capable or not.

I'd reference that this is the idea of comparing Jonas to him as a starter rather than "get your tay hater agendas out of your system". Or maybe Glinny wanted the latter. Either way i'm not on the opposite side of the spectrum calling him the greatest SF since slice bread. But he's severely better than Jonas and very valuable to this team imo WTF trade wishes be damned.

It took Rodman until he was nearly 29 years old until he became a full-time starter.

Jerebko's going to be a reserve for a while. I can even see Daye starting at SF when he develops.

For now, I see nothing wrong with holding on to Tayshaun, unless a great trade opportunity comes along.

It took Rodman until he was nearly 29 years old until he became a full-time starter.
Rodman came into the league at 25 and was a starter by 28. He was made a starter just in time to play in the All-Star game after having gotten his All-D 1st team the year before. Rodman's a special case on a lot of fronts.

Rodman came into the league at 25 and was a starter by 28. He was made a starter just in time to play in the All-Star game after having gotten his All-D 1st team the year before. Rodman's a special case on a lot of fronts.

you can say that again.

I was typing a long response, but decided to say fuck it. The kid is playing well. Not saying he is better than Tay, but definitely a nice surprise considering the circumstances.

Carmelo sure loves playing him.

Jonas update: he's #2 in the NBA among rookies on both double-doubles and rebounds.

You can't talk about Tay's contract and use his current "value" (or lack thereof IYO) Glenn.

Back when that deal was signed Tay was worth every penny and more. He was the glue guy on a title contender that could initiate the offense, post up, shoot from deep, board, block, slow (or lock) down the opponent's best perimeter scorer and he was a "good" boy off the floor.

You couldn't ask for a more well-rounded player that STFU and did his job each and every night and never whined about lack of shots or anything.

Now? We'll see what Joe gives him when the time comes but from where I sit he's still the best SF we have on this team and it's not even close

I know all of those things, of course, I was just hoping for a straight answer or two.

Dunleavy is the one given so far.

Also, these other side rationales are some of the main reasons that the NE Patriots did what they did. Their philosophy is you pay players for what they will do for you, not for what they have done for you. It's cut-throat and it pisses some players/agents/fans off, but you see what it has done for them.

And even if you consider all of those things that you mentioned that I wanted to leave out of the direct question that I asked, it doesn't change the fact that we're paying a career 12 & 5 guy over $10m a year, and generally speaking, other teams are not, so if was just a symptom of "today's NBA" then the league would be littered with similar performing players making that kind of jack, but it's not. By and large, most of the NBA's overpaid players have substantially better career avgs (fading stars) than Tay does.

Interesting discussion (IMO), tho.

Of course, NFL:NBA discussions like this aren't really apples/apples because NFL contracts are not guaranteed, but if an NBA team wanted to act in a similar manner, they could re-sign their asset and then trade him for a player(s) whose production will actually match the salary that he is being paid.

... it doesn't change the fact that we're paying a career 12 & 5 guy over $10m a year, and generally speaking, other teams are not, so if was just a symptom of "today's NBA" then the league would be littered with similar performing players making that kind of jack, but it's not. By and large, most of the NBA's overpaid players have substantially better career avgs (fading stars) than Tay does.

Interesting discussion (IMO), tho.

It is interesting that Tay seems to be that rare guy...

Maybe he threatened to bolt? His contract was signed a long time ago and I can't recall why he got such a massive salary.

I do know Dunleavy got his deal, Josh Howard got a similar one and out of the 3 I'd take Tay every single time

Tayshaun represented our team and our country well at the 2008 Olympics, over the likes of a lot of other SFs. He was clearly worth his contract as of last year. When I read this thread, all I think is "How much better is Prince NOW, after his back woes". And, until we really see him play, we won't know and all this posturing against rookies seems silly and premature. I just hope they're doing the right things to get him better.

Tayshaun representing is well at the Olympics or any other warm fuzzy memories of the past, don't help us win, nor does his salary help us fill other needs when, purely from a production standpoint, JJ clones what we get from Tay at a fraction of the cost. To me, alleviating that duplication of resources by using Tay's salary slot to fill other needs (a legit big man threat) is what is going to allow us to make that leap back into contention.

And Tay's injury isn't factoring into why I say this. He's a 12 & 5 guy for his career, and he'll likely be a 12 & 5 guy after he comes back. I'm just not willing to factor in nostalgia when considering what he's going to give us going forward.

Jerebko fouls at triple the rate Tayshaun does, and isn't as efficient a scorer nor does he score as much. Hell, Jerebko couldn't play Tayshaun's typical 35-40+ mpg most of the time even if he wanted to, given his foul rate.

Jerebko seems to be a better rebounder and will likely do better in some matchups. I certainly like the kid and his future prospects. But, the notion that he's a drop-in replacement for Prince is silly and premature.

Here's something else to chew on -- his opponent PER #s:

http://www.82games.com/0910/09DET7.HTM#bypos

Jj's been playing 30+ minutes per night, and thanks to a draft class that Joe seems to have finally nailed, we've got two capable young options in Daye and Summers. In no way do I think it's premature (or "silly", thanks!) to move Tay ASAP for a legit big, one of the three will be a capable starting 3 by the time we're competing for another ring, and Tay will be even further past his prime. At worst, a vet's minimum backup SF would be needed if 2 of the 3 of these young guys end up as busts, and Rip can certainly help out in the interim.

Jj's been playing 30+ minutes per night, and thanks to a draft class that Joe seems to have finally nailed, we've got two capable young options in Daye and Summers. In no way do I think it's premature to make these moves, one of the three will be a capable starting 3 by the time we're competing for another ring, and Tay will be even further past his prime. At worst, a vet's minimum backup SF would be needed if 2 of the 3 of these young guys end up as busts.
28 mpg, and the big limit on him is the 3.4 fouls per game he has. In 20 starts, Jerebko's had 5+ fouls in 6 of 'em. For some perspective, Tayshaun hasn't had a regular season game where he committed 5+ fouls since 2007 (against LeBron).

Tayshaun's value is worth more next year because he'll be an expiring. And, given the insurance situation where he misses another month and gets 80% of this year's salary covered, he could be worth plenty to the organization even this year.

He's supposed to be back any day now, so the insurance is moot.
And his value as an expiring next year would be fully realized by any team acquiring him this year.

I'm with my very good friend Glan on this one. Let the rebuilding...continue.

Finding a trading partner might be tough with the injury though.

Jj fouls more, in part, because he plays harder/more physical and because he's a rook and doesn't get any benefit of the doubt (yet). Besides, if he's putting up similar numbers to Tay in foul-limited minutes than we're actually coming out ahead. So go play balls out JJ, the fouling is of little concern to me.

Jj fouls more, in part, because he plays harder/more physical and because he's a rook and doesn't get any benefit of the doubt (yet). Besides, if he's putting up similar numbers to Tay in foul-limited minutes than we're actually coming out ahead. So go play balls out JJ, the fouling is of little concern to me.
Tayshaun has had 5+ fouls in 6 games over his entire NBA career. So has Jerebko. See, they're comparable players. :)

As a starter, Tay scores 30% more in his minutes than Jerebko. Both act in that same "4th option" role with slower-paced team play. What gives? I thought he was supposed to be so aggressive. Maybe he is, but does that make him effective? At the defensive end, am I supposed to ignore when Carmelo drops 40 on him? Funny... Carmelo's never done that to Tayshaun.

Tayshaun's been nearing return for awhile now... I'll believe it when I see it. Speaking from family experience, lumbar disc fractures can be a funny thing.

I guess I expect that JJ's talent hasn't plateaued like Tay's has. Any incremental amount that Tay is superior by certainly isn't offset by the $10m difference in their salaries. Call it moneyball or call it whatever you will, but when comparing the two of them on a production:salary basis, it's pretty staggering.

When there is a valid trade out there with Tay for a center then we can debate his 10m salary. Until then, what is the point? Tay is better than JJ still and should be starting. JJ has shown promise and everybody likes him. What else is there to debate unless a deal is on the table?

I guess I expect that JJ's talent hasn't plateaued like Tay's has. Any incremental amount that Tay is superior by certainly isn't offset by the $10m difference in their salaries. Call it moneyball or call it whatever you will, but when comparing the two of them on a production:salary basis, it's pretty staggering.

If anyone on a rookie deal works out that's the case.

The Balls of Jerebko inspire teammates.

Tayshaun's vagina does not.

Re #73

So after nearly a decade of discussing/debating potential roster moves and trades on message boards now is the time when it's a waste of time? Lol

The Balls of Jerebko inspire teammates.

Tayshaun's vagina does not.
Inspiring teammates? I think the teammates are more inspired by Big Ben than anyone else.

The blocks of Tayshaun inspire fans, don't forget...

If anyone on a rookie deal works out that's the case.
True, but we're in a unique position to have three young players (at least one of which has already shown that he can play) at the same position as our aging, $10m 12&5 guy.

The blocks of Tayshaun inspire fans, don't forget...
Without question, a great nostalgic moment from 5 years ago. Doesn't help us win today or tomorrow.

True, but we're in a unique position to have three young players (at least one of which has already shown that he can play) at the same position as our aging, $10m 12&5 guy.


I don't think it's all that unique. Is Ty Lawson better than Denver's aging 10 mil+ PG? How about Taj Gibson vs. Brad Miller? Marcus Thorton vs. Peja?

It happens a lot. Supposing he keeps this up, is JJ the more valuable asset to have under contract may the question you're trying to answer. It's fine to ask, but who is presumably better right now is a bit silly.

Without question, a great nostalgic moment from 5 years ago. Doesn't help us win today or tomorrow.

The Orlando block was five years ago?

Time flies.

I don't think it's all that unique. Is Ty Lawson better than Denver's aging 10 mil+ PG? How about Taj Gibson vs. Brad Miller? Marcus Thorton vs. Peja?

It happens a lot. Supposing he keeps this up, is JJ the more valuable asset to have under contract may the question you're trying to answer. It's fine to ask, but who is presumably better right now is a bit silly.
Is Chauncey a 12&5 career invisible man like Tay? Is Taj a 7 footer with unique skills like Miller (6'9", for the record), and although Peja was once a valuable player, the Hornets would trade him today for you and a bag of chips.

Very poor examples, man. You're better than that.

LOL! You're right. Also, Jonas' first and last name start with the same letters, and none of those other guys do. You got me Glenn, this situation is unique.

All I said was that a player on a rookie deal is always gonna be a better economic decision, so to act like you're onto something with Tay making so much more is silly time. It has nothing to do with who is better or who we should play.

If we can trade Tay for a helpful younger big we should do that with or without a backup.

Don't get pissy because you gave shitty examples. I don't think I'm "onto" anything at all. It should be common sense that you can't pay a 12&5 guy that went from being our 4th option to possibly our 6th option $10m+/yr, but somehow, I knew it wouldn't be.

The Orlando block was five years ago?

Time flies.
And I was thinking the Orlando block when I wrote that because I was watching Hedo and the Craptors on CBC.

I don't see us "paying" Tayshaun for being the 4th, 5th or 6th option.

I see his salary as compensation for a guy that has worked his ass off for the franchise, been a pretty significant part of a great run for basically his entire career and has never been involved in drama off the floor.

Now he's injured and I'll "forgive" him for missing the entire season if it comes to that.

You can't just throw him away or talk shit about the dude now that he's injured or now that his contract is coming to an end. He's been so valuable for so long that he deserves better IMO.

And as usual with Tayshaun he's still a valuable asset! If he sits out another month insurance pays 80% of his salary. Good for the franchise. And if he returns he will be valuable in any role (mentor/bench player/defender/shooter).

Plus he'll be an expiring contract next season! The guy is awesome - even when some think he's not worth the price he's still doing what is best for the unit!

Honestly, if we have the chance to deal him for a capable big man then I wouldn't hesitate to move him. He's been a good soldier, worked hard for the unit but at the end of the day if he's got to go he's got to go.

But outside of Elton Brand and Samuel Dalembert what big men are "rumoured" to be on the block?

Don't get pissy because you gave shitty examples. I don't think I'm "onto" anything at all. It should be common sense that you can't pay a 12&5 guy that went from being our 4th option to possibly our 6th option $10m+/yr, but somehow, I knew it wouldn't be.


I'm pissy because you have no point. You just interjected that JJ is a better value in a thread about who is the better player and by how much. Why say it? Do you have some special means to dissolve Tay's deal? It's totally moot. Over and over again a mid first and beyond rookie is going to be the best deal on your team if he plays.

The question of who's better was silly, so you tried to eject $ into which is a separate and consistent converstaion concerning player value vs. the rigid rookie deals.

Don't get pissy because you gave shitty examples. I don't think I'm "onto" anything at all. It should be common sense that you can't pay a 12&5 guy that went from being our 4th option to possibly our 6th option $10m+/yr, but somehow, I knew it wouldn't be.
Heh... we just paid more than that for BG to come off the bench, right? RJ and Odom make that range of money for the Lakers and Spurs as 4th options.

Gla loves Meijer.

BTW, there can be no doubt Tay is the better player.

He's been there, done that in so many important games.

So naturally you pay top dollar for a proven guy like Tay.

If you wanna compare him to someone Battier is probably the closest I can think of at the minute, though Tay was a key contributor on extremely successful playoff teams while Battier was not

Odom is a 3/4 not a 2/3, and Jefferson may be gay.

Bad examples.

In agreeance with Mxy and Pharoah here. At this point, I'm thinking that for years we've wanted a real backup for Tay. A guy that can come in and we don't have to change everything up because he's playing out of position. A guy that can take some minutes so Tay isn't playing 43 every night. JJ has been a very welcome surprise, and when Tay is back JJ can continue to mature while hopefully getting solid minutes. Tay's defense is still so much better too, and he can teach JJ.

Even with some rebuilding, veteran guys are needed and I think Tay is a great one to have on the squad.

Let the rebuilding ... continue.

$10m+ for 12 & 5, you hopeless fucking romantics, lol.

Remember when we found Chauncey a backup so we traded him for the first piece of trash we could find?

That worked out well for us.

Don't make me defend Stuckey, lol.

I guess time will tell if Billups > Gordon & CV31

And if Billups was making that kind of $ and only giving us 12 & 5, I would have packed his bags for him, even for Stuckey.

$10m+ for 12 & 5, you hopeless fucking romantics, lol.

Tay's worth is a lot greater than 12 & 5. Everyone has said that prior to this season, and I don't see why that's changed because he got injured and a rookie is putting up similar numbers.

I've wanted him to put up better numbers as he has seasoned in the league just like everyone else, but he doesn't let players go off for 40 very often either.

Tay's worth is a lot greater than 12 & 5. Everyone has said that prior to this season, and I don't see why that's changed because he got injured and a rookie is putting up similar numbers.

I've wanted him to put up better numbers as he has seasoned in the league just like everyone else, but he doesn't let players go off for 40 very often either.

I don't see it. He's a role player. A really good role player, but a role player.

He has slightly more energy than a zombie. He's like Beilein or something.

I can agree that he's a better player, more experienced and more "crafty" if nothing else, but how close does JJ have to be to make Tay completely expendable at the price tag that he carries? Especially with Daye, Summers and Rip waiting there to take up the slack?
He doesn't have to be equal to Tay for it to be ridiculous to keep Tay around making as much as other team's highest paid player.

It might be a good idea to give Tayshaun one year playing with JJ and Daye before we trade him.

JJ and Daye have done pretty well without him so far.

They can do better learning from him.

Tay's game is odd to me. He's a damn good player, but not sure anyone on our roster should try to mimic him.

It might be a good idea to give Tayshaun one year playing with JJ and Daye before we trade him.
And that is a valid point, but it seems like a bit of a luxury to me. I guess I just don't know how Mrs. D is going to run this team. What I'd like to see is Tay packaged with Kwame's 4m expiring deal to get a star big man. I'm afraid that she's just going to hold Kwame until he comes off the books to try to avoid paying the tax if Joe wants to use the full MLE. Unless we think we can get somebody like Haywood for the MLE, that is. I just don't want to end up with another Nazr.

He's got a ton of knowledge about playing defense in the NBA. I'd like JJ and Daye to learn from him.

That'd be a high paid teacher.

re Kstat v Tahoe:

Yes it's a highly paid teacher, but if the team is rebuilding and thinking of the future then every teacher and every basketball IQ point gained by the young guys is invaluable.

I've seen JJ get burned by more than a few players this year where he wasnt physically outmatched as much as he just wasnt defending them properly.

Worked out great the last time.

We didn't get shit for...

Zeke
JoeD
Aguirre???
Mahorn expansion
Billy Laims

That hurt. I'd just as soon get a good play for him. Especially since he's hurt.

Worked out great the last time.

We didn't get shit for...

Zeke
JoeD
Aguirre???
Mahorn expansion
Billy Laims

That hurt. I'd just as soon get a good play for him. Especially since he's hurt.

Means no "good play" right now.

Tay is certainly invaluable, he's the perfect 4th piece for a championship team. Unfortunately, we have to realize that we're nowhere near being the team that needs that piece and won't be for 2 years at least. I'm not suggesting we should just cast him away for nothing but if we can get anything reasonable for him and manage to get out from under his contract, we need to do that asap.

The question shouldn't be so much "Is Tayshaun Prince worth $11 Million a year?" so much as "Is Tayshaun worth $11 Million a year to the Pistons?" and the answer to that question is certainly not. He can be and is still a championship level player but he needs a championship level team around him and I don't think many but K-Stat would argue that the Pistons aren't at least 2-3 years away from being that team.

For those that would argue that he's been a warrior and deserves every penny, etc, that may be absolutely true, and I'm not arguing against that. But you know what? We paid him! He has the contract and he's going to get every penny of it, whether we trade him or not! Our end of the bargain is fulfilled, he has been rewarded for all his hard work, now it is the responsibility of Joe D and the responsibility of the franchise to make the moves that put us closer to 4 Championship drive (sorry Fool) that much sooner. And if that means trading Tay, then that's damn well what we better do.

^that's great

I had many of those same thoughts but failed to express them nearly as well as you just did.

I think many here would trade Tay in a heartbeat IF we were getting back some quality big man.

Shit, I'm sure people would be willing to part with Kwame/Wilcox/Atkins in the same deal.

But who is on the block or could be available for that package that isn't about to become a free agent?

Someone (GD) come up with a list and then put it to the board

Why bother? So people can shoot down the list? Peeps don't seem interested in good ol' speculation anymore. If the media or team ownership doesn't come out and directly say that someone is available, then it just can't happen.

If you want to take a stab at it, go for it, I'll keep an open mind.

The blocks of Tayshaun inspire fans, don't forget...

Problem is, the most inspiring block he's going to be providing from here on out is blocking the playing time of our developing players.

ZING

Why bother? So people can shoot down the list? Peeps don't seem interested in good ol' speculation anymore. If the media or team ownership doesn't come out and directly say that someone is available, then it just can't happen.

If you want to take a stab at it, go for it, I'll keep an open mind.

So jaded.

To be fair, I would just respond that his examples suck.

I would expect that if I listed a bunch of 5'11" bigs.

AVhJ9zeoykA&

Problem is, the most inspiring block he's going to be providing from here on out is blocking the playing time of our developing players.
How does Tay do that, exactly?

If he does so by playing BETTER than the developing players, then clearly the players need some more development. We're playing with the best we have to win the most we can, and it's hard to fault a team for doing that. FWIW, I think the coach has a little something to do with Tay's minutes, not to mention his health status after he comes back. That's not up to Tay.

Does developing players only happen through NBA playing time? That's hard to say. It depends a lot on the development they need. More than playing time, Daye needs to bulk up. Unless Tay is stealing much-needed food from him, he's not blocking Daye. Frankly, I don't see Daye's long-term future at SF. JJ playing backup minutes isn't going to stunt his development, because he's a little too foul prone to be relied on to play the big minutes. And while Summers is supposedly the most NBA ready, he hasn't managed to beat out JJ or Daye with Tay out, so I'm think he needs more than just Tay's playing time. Maybe he needs a stint in the D-League, which Tay has been blocking because he's injured and we'd like to 12 healthy dudes before we send 13 to the Mad Ants for a spin.

Tayshaun knows a lot about the NBA game that Daye and Jonas do not know.

Well, maybe I'm the only one that's going to be disappointed to see JJ slashed to 10-12 mins per game and it's possible that Daye will be riding pine altogether.

JJ will get those minutes back eventually. He needs to learn how to play a reserve role. Even without Tayshaun, he might not be a full time starter in 3 years.

Some of you act as if Tay's gonna play 35-40+ mpg once he comes back.

I don't see that as being the case at all.

Between his back and the team having a credible backup, his minutes will go down and that's a good thing. The last time that Tay had credible backup through the regular season was with Hayes. Tay played 32 mpg that season the, and had enough in the tank for some fine playoff performances against Iggy and Hedo before being overwhelmed by Pierce (part of which had to do with Tay losing Hayes throughout the playoffs and going back to 40+ mpg).

Re #73

So after nearly a decade of discussing/debating potential roster moves and trades on message boards now is the time when it's a waste of time? Lol

I never said any of that was a waste of time. I said if you have a legit deal to move Tay, then we should discuss it. If there is no deal, what is the point of debating the difference between JJ and Prince? Everyone agreed Tay is better, but not really worth the 10 mil he makes. So there is nothing to debate. You continue to start Prince until he is no longer here or getting outplayed. If he starts getting outplayed consistently, then you can talk benching.

Right, so now I have to go find a "legit deal" for Tay before we can discuss it.

I'll make some calls this afternoon.

I didn't say a rumored deal. I didn't put legit in there for you. I put it in there for the people who'll say Prince and Kwame for Lebron.

Perhaps plausible is a better word than legit.

AVhJ9zeoykA&

Magic Johnson owned and played for a team in Sweden? How did I miss this??

Also, who are these people who don't want JJ to succeed?? I like the chip on the shoulder and all but that just seems strange?

You making those phone calls is irrelevant.

Quick question: How does JJ's hair stay perfectly in place throughout the entire game?

^no homo

Also, who are these people who don't want JJ to succeed?? I like the chip on the shoulder and all but that just seems strange?
http://kimchilicious.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/haters.jpg
Translation, he needs something to motivate him to success.

Alex (Grand Blanc, Mich.): Some last Mailbag compared Jerebko to Varejao. I get it from the energy standpoint, but I think Jerebko is much more than that. I see Jerebko as a more athletic, better-defending Hedo Turkoglu, given he’s 6-foot-10, athletic and can handle the ball. Best part about it he’s doing all that at 22. Hedo really was one dimensional until a couple of years ago.

Langlois: Jerebko is more versatile than Varejao at both ends, was my response, but Varejao is probably better suited right now to what he does best – defending in the post and offensive rebounding. I said as far back as Summer League I saw some faint resemblances to Turkoglu in the way Jerebko kept his dribble alive in Vegas to wind his way to the basket. He’s not the ballhandler Turkoglu is quite yet, nor the perimeter shooter, but you’re right: He’s 22. Long way to go before he’s a finished product, which is a pretty exciting prospect for the Pistons because he’s already a valuable contributor.

If he can dribble and shoot like Hedo in a couple years he'll be quite a gem indeed since Hedo plays no defense.

He'd be all NBA.

And they would start comparing him to Kucoc instead of Hedo.

GD, cause you're too much of a pussy:

How do people feel about Tayshaun Prince/Kwame Brown for Elton Brand and Philly's 2010 first round pick unprotected?

Why for Philly?

They go back to having the Dalembert/Young/Iggy 5,4,3 combo that worked for them last season. They can push the pace and even with "lost a step" Iverson that's a good thing

Kwame is expiring while Dalembert and Prince are soon to be expiring. That allows them to add free agents around Young, Iggy and Williams once this Iverson thing has run it's course.

If they are so desperate to dump Brand's contract giving up 1 first rounder is a small price to pay

Why for us?

Big risk, big reward? IF Brand could get close to 100% healthy we could be a pretty dangerous unit. Hell, at worst he's a big that can score down low.

Brand and Rip's contracts are the same length (or close) so you basically have those 2 (with Nova and BG) as your core.

We add a Lotto pick in 2010 to our late Lotto/mid first pick.

Our Top 10:

C: Ben
F: Brand
F: Jerebko
G: Rip
G: Stuckey
G: Gordon
F: Nova
G: Bynum
F: Daye
F: Maxiell

PLUS we'd be adding 2 2010 first rounders to that.

Brand looks to be done. Damn shame.

^took 4 minutes, lol

Hermy didn't say "No Deal", he merely stated that Brand looks to be done and that it's a shame.

We all know looks ain't everything.

Wasn't Dice "done" before we signed him?

I might consider it as a fallback, but I think we have the assets to add a better big or an expiring for Tay that leads to Bosh.

Nice article about Jerebko

Jerebko another Dumars' steal
http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/may/2009/12/17/jerebko-another-dumars-steal/

lol@"another"

Memo was a steal.

Yeah but so was Delfino and plenty of others who have turned to crap. I'm ripping more on the overuse more than the factuality of it.

OK, Memo "is" a steal. In reflection, Memo was a good pick at that spot. But I understand where it is too early to judge JJ.

Anyone else have to google Jesper Parnevik?

slim chance?

We're 1/2 a game out right now with half our rotation.

I demand an apology! DEMAND!!
I WILL CUT YOUR FACE!!!
:SHIT STORM!:

Your demands are irrelevant.

Your demands are irrelevant.

...and judging by the last 6 games, so is this thread you started.

http://blog.mlive.com/fullcourtpress/2009/12/about_last_afternoon_1.html


Prince's return is good news for Jonas Jerebko: We know what we are going to get, night-in, night-out, from Tayshaun Prince -- about 12 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists and some long arms in the face of guys he's defending. There are certainly better small forward options in the NBA, but the Pistons being able to plug that decent production into the three spot every game is a huge plus.

The biggest plus, however, is that Jonas Jerebko no longer has to play big minutes at the three. He's simply been over-matched defensively. He hustles, he tries hard, he makes some scrappy plays, but his 109 defensive rating (tied for worst on the team among regular rotation players) doesn't lie -- he's simply been lit up by opposing threes this season.

It hasn't been his fault -- his future is at power forward, and against Toronto Jerebko put off the entirely premature accusations of hitting a rookie wall with a solid 14 point/7 rebound performance before fouling out. Made-up things like "rookie walls" are convenient ways of explaining away what really goes on -- young players typically just get over-matched. Such was the case with Jerebko -- he was guarding much more athletic star players at the three, clumsily trying to compete offensively and provide scoring in ways that wing players typically do, shooting from the perimeter and penetrating. Those moves frequently ended poorly for him.

At the four, however, it's a different story. He's still going to get worked defensively -- and make no mistake, he made very little hard for Chris Bosh or Andrea Bargnani this game when guarding either player. But playing him at power forward allows him to stay around the basket on offense, catch the ball in better scoring position rather than having to create and, most importantly, use his quickness against the slower defenders he's sure to encounter down low.

The defense will come -- it always takes some time with young players. Expect to see more fluid offense from Jonas over the next few games, though.

I like the fact he could be a combo forward kinda like Nova down the road.

With Jonas/Nova and BG we'd have the ability to keep opponents on their toes a bit, not knowing where the penetration or jumper was gonna come from.

But as usual the other 2 positions are the hardest to fill. We really need to find a true big that can play down low and IMO a PG that can really manage the game.

Maybe Andre Miller can be had for Kwame and Wilcox now the Blazers have lost another big?

Vs. Jerebko?

Just wondering what you guys think.


bump

What's our record with Tay?

I've said it all along. I'm willing to dump Tay and RIP for any expirings. Sure, there will be lumps we'll take with young guys this year, but it would give us the space to add a difference maker and get guys PT.

A better question might be, if Prince can get back his game from a year or two ago, how much will his expiring be worth next season? Expiring contract plus solid veteran = big asset.

Everyone's already assuming lottery this season, so it could be worth keeping him until next season if we don't get good value for him this year.

I don't care what value we get if trading both leads to Bosh. If we can't find a taker for RIP (good chance we can't), then maybe we'd be better off trading Prince as an expiring, we'll see.

If it leads to Bosh, I feel like that would be part of the value of the trade.

Bosh is going to command a max deal. Assuming that we can deal both of them for expiring contracts (1 in 1000 chance we can pull that off?), is wiping Tay and Rip off the books going to get us room for a max deal?

If not, would we have anything the Raptors would want in a sign-and-trade? They've been looking to get rid of Calderon and they're starting Jarrett Jack, so I'm sure Stuckey would be the focal point. What else do we have, though? The pick? Daye?

What if we end up with both Rip and Tay on the roster at the end of the year? Tay's $11m expiring, Stuckey's $3m, Rip's $12m and our 1st for a signed Bosh and Calderon? Would Toronto do this deal? I don't think they do but it has to be a bit tempting if Bosh says he wants to come to Detroit. They get a young developing combo-guard, a solid SG, an expiring veteran SF, and a lottery pick, plus they get out of Calderon's contract.

Stuckey/Jack/Banks
DeRozan/Rip/Belinelli
Hedo/Tay
??/Evans
Bargnani

Calderon/Bynum (if he's back)
Gordon/Daye?
Jerebko/Daye
Bosh/Villanueva/Max/Wilcox
Wallace/Bosh/Wilcox

I stuck Wallace and Jerebko in our starting lineup because I got sad thinking of our defense with Calderon, Gordon, Villanueva, and putting Bosh at C.

Tay and RIP clear 23 mil in space. Yes, that is enough for Bosh (since we will be pretty close to the estimated cap as it stands now).

Forget Bosh... he can get more money and a better winning % right where he is.

Why would he want to re-up with the Pistons?
If Toronto deals him it would be out of the East.

Tay and RIP clear 23 mil in space. Yes, that is enough for Bosh (since we will be pretty close to the estimated cap as it stands now).
I wasn't sure, with raises plus the assumption that the cap will go down and all that jazz. I'm not sure exactly where we stand with the cap as it is right now. I forgot that we had Kwame coming off the books, as well.

We'll be between 51 and 52 mil before picks (and any Bynum extension) if I remember correctly.

Basically we'll have no cap space barring trades, but won't be near the tax level either.

You could sign Bosh without moving RIP, but it would take moving Max and Wilcox as well. That would be a little tighter too if the cap dropped more than expected. I think you could find a taker for Wilcox, but Max would be harder.

So, after this season we're gonna basically be at the cap and only have the MLE, LLE (is it still called that?) and our draft picks to improve this roster?

Will we be able to use those exceptions and pony up for a Lotto pick without hitting the tax or is it likely we don't use the LLE this coming off-season?

bump, you guys