Joe Dumars has made a lot of questionable moves since trading Chauncey for capspace... (extending RIP & Maxiell, overpaying Gordon, Villa and Wilcox, dealing AA for capspace, Kuester hire when Avery was available) to me & everyone else it was clear there are 2 big holes up front, we needed a new starting PF AND C...he did get a new PF but failed to aquire a starting C, big time...Okafor was available and he was available for a salary dump...and if they really wanted Chandler we had EVERY opportunity to get Chandler, make no mistake, Chandler was available for a lesser contract like Kwame(rumored Big Ben-Chandler deal)...so instead spending the capspace in a starting C, Dumars invested almost 12 mil per year and most of the capspace in a backup SG/PG and has no intention & possibilities to deal RIP...thats inexcusable, we wasted the best opportunity to get a quality starting C, the hardest position to fil in the NBA, we will be too good to get a good draft pick to fil that starting C position with the draft, and the MLE next year wont bringt in a better C than Okafor...to me Joe D was in the big chair too long(+ or he's missing someone like Hammond to talk about his moves) its time for him to step down...

i might have overracted a bit, you might want to change the thread in: Opportunity wasted, Okafor was available! ...or sth like that, still i am pissed

The Curry move came before the Chauncey move, and that was even more questionable when considering what followed after. Avery was available back then as well. :)

While I wouldn't go so far as to say he should be fired, recent developments just lend creedence to the theory that Hammond was a pretty critical part of the decision-making team.

Maybe Joe needs a new right-hand man.

Or maybe Joe has been using his right hand too much cutting off the blood flow to his brain!

Joe is a very good Jerry West-type "face of the franchise" guy. Players respect and like him, and that aura comes in handy.

But even West had his Kupchak.

As P mentioned in another thread, there is no proof that Emeka was available on July 1 or whatever the date is for trades. Joe did make his moves very fast, which I'm disappointed with, but one can argue that he did his best of what he had available. Tyson was pretty much a nono by failing 2 physicals(PHX and OKC). Sure he expires 2 seasons later, but that still leaves a 7 footer just sittingon the bench eating our capspace for the time being.

Avery wanted more than the head coaching spot if im correct. Joe not willing to give that up is understandable, plus Avery still had some shit with the Mavs? He probably made the best choice, again of what was available.

About a month into the offseason, Joe pretty much gave up all leverage in raping a team with financial troubles but I'm almost sure he didn't know Okafor was available. There's no way Joe wouldn't have gone for him. Or maybe he has some "character" issues. Larry Brown did say Okafor didn't have as much passion for basketball, meaning hes not dedicated enough into putting more work into his game.

We can't really become a third team unless we part with one of our players most likely rip or tay, which sucks. To say he should be fired?? not yet, we should see how this "core" turns out to be....

but i'm still pretty disappointed with this offseason...

Doesn't Chandler make more than Prince, yet they expire at the same time. I feel like if we were going for Okafor, we could have still gotten him with Prince's contract. Charlotte takes on less salary, still gets it off the books at the same time, plus Prince isn't an HUGE injury risk. The only explanation is that either A) we weren't going after him, or B) Charlotte wanted a big man and is rolling the dice on Chandler's health. Either way, I'd have done everything I could to get him.

I've been screaming for us to get Okafor all freaking summer. This sucks.

The thing that amazes me the most:

IIRC Joe took over in 2000 when this franchise was fucking DONE! It was beyond done - it was just so fucked there is not a word to describe it.

Endless flame outs in the playoffs. Management fucked up every possible chance to get Grant Hill some support. We all knew he was gonna bolt. And into the fire walked Joe Dumars - the franchise's 2nd favourite Son. He walked in like Moses and fucking saved his "people" - the entire fanbase.

He took us from a Lotto season to the fucking title. From playoff pussies to Conference Champions I forgot how many times in a row. From horses heads to smashing heads.

And after 1 shitty fucking season and a few questionable moves the "Fire Joe" shit starts again?

Fuck that!

I can not believe this.

You might not like the course Joe has chartered but if you're a real fucking fan you will at least travel part of the way with him. You owe him that much. 3 fucking NBA titles and you question the man? Dude!

It's basically common knowledge now that I hate the way things are headed, with the league and the franchise. But as a fan I can't do squat to change it. All I can do is support my team and hope they play with heart and guts and an elbow to the jaw every now and then.

Stick with him and if this all turns into a giant turd then you can bail on him. But at least give him the chance to rebuild. He rebuilt the franchise once before and I was pretty fucking happy with the job he did then. We even made the Finals twice, got a title and won (memory is shot) I forget how many Conference titles for years and years.

While Kstat may suck too much Dumars dick sometimes, you guy are hating on him way too extreme. Fire Joe Dumars? really? Any muthafucka who feels like that should be forced to watch the teal years on endless repeat for eternity.

^seconded.

I'm not crazy about diffusing blame or blind faith in Joe, but for those that want him fired, who would you rather have running the team, realistically?

If Joe knew that Okafor was available, before he signed Ben Gordon then thats a huge mistake. I like Ben Gordon a lot, but we could have trotted out Stuckey Hamilton Prince CV Okafor.

Well, only one person has actually said we should fire him, with everyone else saying they're just disappointed. Joe's earned the patience to see where things go. He's definitely been one of the better GMs in the league, even the last few seasons. Look at the things we complain about with him, then look at the things some other teams have to complain about. We're sitting pretty nice by comparison.

If Joe knew that Okafor was available, before he signed Ben Gordon then thats a huge mistake. I like Ben Gordon a lot, but we could have trotted out Stuckey Hamilton Prince CV Okafor.

but...but...Okafor doesn't shoot threes!!!!

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

If Joe knew that Okafor was available, before he signed Ben Gordon then thats a huge mistake. I like Ben Gordon a lot, but we could have trotted out Stuckey Hamilton Prince CV Okafor.

IMO, everyone here would love that line-up.

Which leads me to believe that when we had all our cap space getting Okafor just wasn't do-able.

Okafor would have been Joe's new Ben.

There is no way Joe doesn't call Charlotte with all kinds of deals.

No Way!

but...but...Okafor doesn't shoot threes!!!!

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

:cogent:

imagine if that is why we didn't get him

color fail

What?

It is very clear that bargains were certainly out there this season. Odom for probably just more than the MLE, LEE and Nate at anything more than a 1 year deal, CV, BG at less, Earl Watson, Marvin Williams, J.Childress, Brandon Bass, Chandler, and yes Emeka Okafor. These are all guys that were available if we had been a little more patient. This was a shortcoming of Joe D this offseason, which is weird since he is usually pretty patient with his moves.

He has drafted poorly at the top. No question about it. This season could be good, but really should not receive any verdict for a season or two.

He has made a couple crippling extensions, namely Maxiell and Rip, when perhaps leveraging them this offseason may have been far cheaper, or better yet, moving their expiring contracts if the right deal came along. Billups certainly struggled against certain PGs, but without question the team looks lost without his leadership amongst multiple coaching changes and personalities.

I personally would have moved Rip before Chauncey, like everyone else not have extended Maxiell or Rip, and without question would have waited on free agency. We all talk about how Joe D rebuilt us so fast. He should have followed his own blueprint. Use the cap space to get decent players AND picks, target players like CV at the correct price (which he did), and hired someone established to help him draft.

In the end, his tenure has been littered with bad decisions.... and many good ones. His gambles paid off, his basketball instincts and knowledge of players made him choose the correct chemistry, and he had Hammond by his side. I think he should definitely be retained since no one better would come, and he hasn't been horrible with his gambles yet. If we can't move Rip by next season and have 20M+ plugged into SG, people will call for his dismissal. Personally, I would give him 2-3 more years before firing him.

So this Okafor guy everyone's talking about...

What makes him so fucking special that Dumars should be fired for not getting him? Career 14+10 guy isn't THAT great.

So this Okafor guy everyone's talking about...

What makes him so fucking special that Dumars should be fired for not getting him? Career 14+10 guy isn't THAT great.

A special thanks to laxation for getting it. Troy Murphy averaged more points and rebounds than okafor last year. He's a nice player but is severly over-rated especially by folks on this board.

Tyson Chandler when healthy is a better player than okafor (or I should say a much more dominant rebounder and help defender). Neither are very good offensively but honestly I'd much rather have Chandler's athleticism. The hornets are stuck with a pretty good power forward masquerading as a center. Good luck to them.

The trade is predicated on Chandler passing the physical (which he couldn't pass at OKC or Phoenix) or Charlotte waives it. If he's really that injured, I woudl think that the trade won't go thru.

I guess we can at least hope for that.

Also,I see that we've reached the part of the discussion where we disparage the guy we didn't get.

I still want Okafor. I still want Joe D fired. If you make some good moves and then keep making bad moves, at what do you hold him accountable? Joe has been a below average GM the past three or four season now. Where does it end?

wahhhh, wahhhhhh.

What was it, six or seven straight ECF's?

Every team needs to rebuild, idiots.

wahhhh, wahhhhhh.

What was it, six or seven straight ECF's?

Every team needs to rebuild, idiots.

That's cool. I guess your definition of repeated questionable or bad moves is "rebuilding". It's ok if you are perfectly happy with Joe D. and call those of us who want the team to be better whiners. Just don't bitch about one single move that Joe makes since you think he is such a great GM. You wouldn't want to become one of us "idiots"!

3 or 4 years? Let's take a look then.

Good:
First and foremost, if you're making repeated poor decisions, you don't get to the ECF 3 of the 4 years in question.

Drafted Max - not a bad move. Yes, a few guys after him turned out better, but quite a few before him turned out much worse. In the mid-20s we got a solid bench/energy guy.

Traded Darko and Arroyo for 1st and Cato (expiring) - Good move.

Signed Webber - Webber wasn't what he used to be, and you can complain about that all you want, but we signed the guy for pretty much nothing and he filled a need. That was a good signing.

Drafted Stuckey and Afflalo - Both good picks. Afflalo isn't here anymore, but he was a solid draft pick for where we got him.

Resigned Dice - Good move, his contract was a great deal for the Pistons

Let Ben walk - Great move

Signed Flip Murray - I wasn't a fan, but for the price he was a good signing.

Traded Nazr - Good move. I don't even care what we got in return, it's off the books. Good move (doesn't make up for the bad move of signing him)

Signed Ratliff - cheap signing, good move

Signed Kwame - I was skeptical, but he's been a solid backup. Not a bad move.

Bad:
Signed Nazr - Bad move, no question.

Hiring Curry - Terrible move.

Firing Curry - Great move

Draft Walter Sharpe - Zzzzzzz

Failed to replace Ben - This is our big issue right now

Failed to get Tay a quality backup - We complained about this every offseason

Wait-and-See:
Max's extension - may turn out to be a bad move (most likely, but I'll give him a chance to prove himself this season).

Rip's extension - may turn out to be a bad move, but that's another wait and see. No one seemed to think it was when we gave it to him.

Trading Billups for AI - wasn't a terrible move because of the space it gave us. Yes, it was one terrible season, but it potentially got us off the hook for more bad seasons to come.

CV signing, Ben Gordon signing, Wilcox signing, 2009 draft - We can't judge any of these yet.


He's obviously made some bad moves in there, there's no questioning that, but if we did this for all GMs in the league, he'd be above average. Is he the best? Heck no. Is he bad? Not in my opinion.


Feel free to add in anything I missed in there.

That's a well thought out list. I would like to add or disagree on a few things though.

Maxiell was not a good draft pick. Based on needs and players available it was a very questionable pick.

The Billups trade was bad. We could have and should have gotten more for him. We didn't really have a spot of AI and it caused a bunch of turmoil. We also lost Dice for a good part of the season and could have lost him permananetly.

Not firing Flip a year earlier was a bad or questionable move. He had already lost the team and it was pretty apparent. Especially as other good coaches became available. I would have loved to have gotten Adelman(sp?)

Keuster is a questionable hire but time will tell as to it being goood or bad.

Not re-signing Dice was a bad move. We really need his interior D and rebounding.

Dumping Afflalo for a weak 2nd. Bad move making a weak defensive team even weaker.

Kwame was not a good signing. It was questionable at best. The fact that most of us were hoping that he would opt out proves my point.

Add to this a bad or at the very least questionable off-season by missing out on deals, overspending, and leaving the team with no to little defense and a gaping hole at Center. If Rip stays, how long before there are gripes and conflicts on who should start or play more. We can already see a potential problem there and the season hasn't even started.

Can you repeated poor decisions, yet still get to the ECF 3 of the 4 years in question? Yes because Joe made some great moves to put together a very good core. I never said that Joe wasn't a great GM at the beginning. He was one of if not the best. It is the past few seasons where is decision have become worse or more questionable. At what point does it get bad enough to make a change? How many free passes do you give him based on past performance? That is the question.

I feel bad that Z had to go to the trouble. You guys are pussies.

I feel bad that Z had to go to the trouble. You guys are pussies.

Yet another polite, insightful and intelligent comment.

What else were we getting for Billups? Please inform me, because we can say he has whatever value we want, but I don't see what we were going to get. If we'd traded Billups for Ben Gordon (which is essentially what we did), I think people would have said it wasn't a bad trade. I just don't see what else we could have gotten for him.

I agree on Flip, should have been let go a year earlier. He was a solid coach, but he lost the players and he wasn't getting us over the hump.

Who says we could have resigned McDyess? He doesn't want to be part of a rebuild. He wants to be a valuable piece on a contender. He wasn't staying here as soon as we started a youth movement.

As for Kwame, what else was out there at the time that we could have gotten as our backup C? He's a backup, and he's not a bad one.

Still don't have a problem with the Billups move.

My issue with Joe (besides wasted draft picks for quite a while, save a few)...is that he jumped on Gordon so early when clearly there were big man deals to be had. I don't get it because there was no competition for Gordon. teams were actually after Charlie, so I understand that move right away.

Maybe nothing would have happened and we'd still get Gordon, but he ruined all chances to try.

What else were we getting for Billups? Please inform me, because we can say he has whatever value we want, but I don't see what we were going to get. If we'd traded Billups for Ben Gordon (which is essentially what we did), I think people would have said it wasn't a bad trade. I just don't see what else we could have gotten for him.

I agree on Flip, should have been let go a year earlier. He was a solid coach, but he lost the players and he wasn't getting us over the hump.

Who says we could have resigned McDyess? He doesn't want to be part of a rebuild. He wants to be a valuable piece on a contender. He wasn't staying here as soon as we started a youth movement.

As for Kwame, what else was out there at the time that we could have gotten as our backup C? He's a backup, and he's not a bad one.


There was no rush to trade Billups and there were several teams looking for a PG of his caliber. In my opinion we could have gotten more but that's just my opinion. Portland, Miami, LAL, Houston, Denver, and the list goes on. Factor in losing Dice for a good chunk of the season and it was a questionable trade at best. Even with the trade, we should have gotten a 1st out of the deal. Look what Billups did for Denver.

As for Dice, it is documented that Detroit was one or two of his preferred FA destinations. We had just blown through all of our cap at that point so he went to SA.

As for a back-up C, there were still some decent min. C's available. Theo could have been brought back or we could have tried to give Amir or Samb some PT. Better yet we could have only signed Kwame for 1 year and had another 4+ mil in cap this off-season.

Again, these are all opinions but that's what a site like this is for.

Yet another polite, insightful and intelligent comment.

This is WTF buttnugget. If you want polite go talk to your moms.

Who's to say if we COULD have signed Kwame for a 1 year deal? Maybe he wanted long term, we wanted 1 year, settled for 2. That's typically how negotiation works.

Chris, here's a perspective we haven't looked at yet. What if Charlie wanted to test the waters where he could have probably gotten a slightly better deal (we all agree that we got him on a pretty good contract, right?) but he was willing to sign here for what we offered as a BG-Charlie package? They brought them in together to negotiate. Maybe it wasn't Ben that caused things to go so quickly, but trying to lock up CV.

Then screw him. If Charlie wasn't going to sign here unless Gordon did too then you let him sign somewhere else. You might cater to Lebron, Kobe, Bosh, etc...but not Charlie. I doubt Joe let a FA like force his hand.

You tell him Gordon is near the top of his list, you have some potential trades you have to explore before using the rest of the cap space, but there will be another top tier FA joining him. If he's not down with that, screw him. Could have gotten Odom as a plan B.

Fair response. I do agree that overpaying one guy to get another guy is not the smartest move. I'd have liked it if we'd felt out our options a bit more instead of jumping on everything that came to us the first day unless those deals were steals that we couldn't pass up, but it is what it is at this point.

I actually like the idea of Odom AND CV. I like the concept of two forwards instead of a SF and PF. Get two guys that have the size to play PF and the quickness/agility to play SF. The only problem with that is the need for a solid defensive C to help them if they're struggling on a bigger PF.

Kind of like what Orlando did with Hedo and Rashard, now that I think about it, except Rashard isn't all that great guarding PFs.

I would have been fine with CV/Odom/C (in trade for Prince). We could have signed a cheaper backup wing too (Ariza or other) with the money saved from BG to Odom.

Anyway, none of that matters. I think a lot of us see the trades out there and wonder why we didn't use our space for that.

In fact I made many posts before July 1 saying Joe's best move is to use the space in trades with the economy the way it is (and teams cutting salary). If you couldn't make moves, then you sign Gordon.

And yet here we are....

HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT WAS AVAILABLE TO HIM??

WHAT EXPERIENCE DO YOU HAVE AS AN NBA GENERAL MANAGER?

Okay, got that out of the way...

None of us have ever played in the NBA, therefor we cannot comment on his moves anyway...

If you've never two-fisted a dozen box of Cripsy Cremes you can't either.

Gla you're on.

FAMILY HISTORY, MISTER!!!!!

Oh, that was good. Really good.

Indeed. Gla always comes through.

The assist gets overlooked too often.

This is WTF buttnugget. If you want polite go talk to your moms.
Fool you can have my alpacas.

Other than his drafts and the Ben Gordon signing why would you fire Joe?

Coaches have a used by date regardless of how great they are. Players get sick of listening to the same old shit day after day and year after year.

I'm surprised any pro coach lasts longer than 5 years unless the team has significant roster turnover.

I can't believe Jerry Sloan has stayed in Utah for so long.

Utah is happy never to win.

This thread was a rollercoaster from start to finish. 5 stars.

Utah is happy never to win.

Well, I doubt it's Sloan's fault they can't win it all. Unless he decided to overpay AK47 and kill their ability to make moves.

Dude's been there 20+ years. I'm absolutely sure he's somewhat to blame for them never winning while have multiple hall of famers in their history.

I think he had bad timing with his Hall of Famers. Stockton/Malone =/= Jordan/Pippen.

I think he had bad timing with his Hall of Famers. Stockton/Malone =/= Jordan/Pippen.

Also Knicks, Pacers, Suns of the 90's.

Houston wouldn't have won shit if MJ kept playing and they were stocked as much as Utah.

Didn't stop us.

We won before MJ was ready to win.

Bulls only won 47 games the first year we won it all. They won 55 the next year under Phil.

Armstrong was a rookie, Pippen only had 2 years in.

He was coaching before, during, and after Jordan.

30 years worth of "bad timing".

Jerry's DONE.

What does that even mean?

Jerry Sloan won't win a championship with this exact roster as it stands now, including coaches, training staff, and security, and marketing staff, and vendor staff. Any changes to anyone associated with the Utah Jazz, or just Utah in general, the whole state, and it doesn't count.

That's really more P then gla.

He was coaching before, during, and after Jordan.

30 years worth of "bad timing".


of the 18 years Stockton and Malone Spent as teammates, the first 15 were spent during the Jordan era, sans 1994.

Most of the time he had stockton and malone, he ran into teams with two BETTER hall of famers. From Kareem/Magic, to Drexler/Olajuwon, to Jordan/Pippen, to Duncan/Robinson.

Utah never was never really the favorite to win a title during that stretch.

30 years to win 1 championship. We've won 3.

All that says about Sloan is that he's not as good as Larry Brown. And Larry Brown at his best is better that a lot of hall of fame coaches.

Also, Sloan has coached Utah for barely over 21 years, not 30. Yeah he coached the Bulls back when they were mediocre, but nobody is even holding that against him.

He was coaching before, during, and after Jordan.

30 years worth of "bad timing".
I don't do a lot of math, but 1988 to 2009 is not 30 years.

So in 21 years he has not won a title.

Malone and Stockton were there until 2003. So he had 15 years to win it.

6 of those were dominated by MJ.

Everything prior to that was dominated by LA and Boston (except when we snuck in twice).

Then dominated again by Shaq/Kobe for another 5 years.

Throw in a few dominating runs by SA too.

Basically he had a 2 year window when Houston won it (MJ was away) that he didn't get it done. Those Houston teams were pretty loaded too BTW.

It also says the guy can't get it done if you give him 30 years to do it.

It also says the guy can't get it done if you give him 30 years to do it.

Again with the math. IT'S 21 YEARS!

and only 15 with legit players.

I don't do a lot of math, but 1988 to 2009 is not 30 years.

So in 21 years he has not won a title.

Malone and Stockton were there until 2003. So he had 15 years to win it.

6 of those were dominated by MJ.

Everything prior to that was dominated by LA and Boston (except when we snuck in twice).

Then dominated again by Shaq/Kobe for another 5 years.

Throw in a few dominating runs by SA too.

Basically he had a 2 year window when Houston won it (MJ was away) that he didn't get it done. Those Houston teams were pretty loaded too BTW.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/sloanje01c.html
24 years of coaching. Sorry I wasn't exact. Knew he'd been coaching since the 70's. Didn't know it wasn't continuous.

Point is that he's a top 5 coach.

After Phil, Popp, LB and Riley who can you say is a better coach?

Again with the math. IT'S 21 YEARS!

and only 15 with legit players.
Look at the post time. Your post wasn't even on my browser when I posted.

And if you are going to harp on it GET IT RIGHT AT LEAST.

Wasnt Larry brown the guy who couldnt get it done in 20 years when we hired him?

Point is that he's a top 5 coach.

After Phil, Popp, LB and Riley who can you say is a better coach?

Anyone who can win given 24 years.

By fool's logic, doc rivers is a better coach than jerry sloan.

Funny story about Doc Rivers. One year he got more than one hall of famer on his team and then ... won a championship.

Strange I know. Can't believe it didn't take him 25 years.

Anyone who can win given 24 years.

In that 21 year time frame with Utah, these coaches have won the title:

Phil x 10
Popp x 3
Chuck x 2
Rudy T x 2
LB
Riley
Doc

So Doc is better than Sloan?

Anyone who's won a championship has proven they can ... get this ... win a championship.

You know what you can't say about Jerry Sloan? After 24 years?

Robert Horry is the 7th best player ever! He has more rings than Shaq, MJ, Magic and Kareem

Players are the same as coaches. And I know the difference between a threshold and a scale.

Wow, good stuff.

And I've just been sittin' here trying to get Steve Buscemi's voice out of my head (keep hearing him say "Jerry" like he did in Fargo).

Fool just implied Doc Rivers is a better coach than jerry Slaon. There's no going back from this. I can only deal with so much.

Jerry Sloan = overrated.

Fool just implied Doc Rivers is a better coach than jerry Slaon. There's no going back from this. I can only deal with so much.

Tahoe stole his log in. Only explanation.

If I had the 08 Celtics I am 100% sure that if Doc Rivers coached them, they would win the championship. If Jerry Sloan coached them? No clue. Maybe he benches half the team or alienates a great player, or veto's adding the guy who was the master mind of their championship defense. It's not like he's never done that before.

If I had the 08 Celtics I am 100% sure that if Doc Rivers coached them, they would win the championship. If Jerry Sloan coached them? No clue. Maybe he benches half the team or alienates a great player, or veto's adding the guy who was the master mind of their championship defense. It's not like he's never done that before.

I really have nothing to add to this. I just thought it beared being posted twice.

Everything I post should be posted multiple times. I agree.

....for the shock value alone.

The Shock are a great value.

We won before MJ was ready to win.

Bulls only won 47 games the first year we won it all. They won 55 the next year under Phil.

Armstrong was a rookie, Pippen only had 2 years in.
We hardened the Bulls into champions in much the same way the Celtics hardened us.

Read this (http://www.autotropolis.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dangers_of_Carbon_Monoxide_Poisoni ng) Fool, it may save you.

We hardened the Bulls into champions in much the same way the Celtics hardened us.
He said ...

Read this (http://www.autotropolis.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dangers_of_Carbon_Monoxide_Poisoni ng) Fool, it may save you.
LOL.

I'm saying Sloan is overrated. That's all. Rivers has always been a moron but that doesn't make Sloan a great coach. I like that he preaches defense but give me a fucking break. Dude's been in the league a quarter of a century and he's won his conference twice (for all your "How can you count Jordan years"). I'm really supposed to believe there aren't other guys who could have duplicated that in 21 fucking years? He's so amazing no one else could have gotten Utah to the finals twice in 21 freaking years. Gee, how lucky to have a coach who can get his team to the finals eight times a fucking century. What a legacy.

He knows basketball. Great. Plenty of coaches know basketball. Doesn't make them the greatest coaches ever.

You keep missing the parallel. Doc Rivers has been a coach less than 10 years, most of them awful, and he won an NBA title by lucking into 3 hall of famers.

Jerry Sloan never had as much talent on his team as the 2008 celtics had. He never had that third superstar to go with Malone and Stockton.

You can be a great coach and not win a championship. It's hard to do and requires a a lot of things to go against you, but a lot of them did for Sloan.

The fact that Slaon is Springfield-bound yet ringless, and Rivers is a championship-winning "idiot" underscores the point. Bringing up his lack of a title is silly. Larry Brown was granted entrance into the hall of fame before he won an NBA title.

Find me the one year where Sloan had his golden opportunity to win a championship. His best shots were repeatedly against a better team.

I'm not missing the "parallel", though it's not a parallel.

I understand the point. It should be clear that I understood it with my reply to Chris that said he didn't get that I was using the championship as a threshold not a scale. Regardless of whether you like that threshold or not (because I give a shit what you like).

I love that Sloan is now so unfortunate not to have had 3 all-time greats on his team. Oh how can we expect him to accomplish anything without half a team of once in a generation players? The excuses get worse and worse.

The hall of fame doesn't mean shit btw. ESPECIALLY the basketball hall of fame which is run by a fleet of circus clowns. But after 24 years, if the best you can do is 2nd twice, you aren't head and shoulders above the rest. If he's anywhere but that fucking hermitage of a city, he'd be a nomadic retread coach who's name is always mentioned for the next job opening. The dude is Doug Collins and Hubie Brown level. An ok coach who can get your team organized around a few principles but most definitely not elite.

Save your requests that I do things for you btw. I ain't yo momma.

So anyway........

How much better off would we have been if we'd signed Felton to an offer sheet instead of signing Gordon?

Felton wouldn't have cost as much. Would 5 years starting slightly above CV's deal get him? That's a few million less on this years cap. Add that to the $3m-ish that we ended up with after the Gordon signing and we have about $5m left to make a trade or sign another player. (Kwame's expiring for a S&T of Lee? Involvement in that Chandler/Okafor deal? Pry away another C like Biedrins?)

Rip has his distributing PG and goes back to knocking down mid-range shots like a machine.

Stuckey moves to the 3rd guard role that Gordon is in (where he belongs at this point in his career). He's given time to develop his PG skills without all the pressure and playing the 2 comes naturally. Better hope he's worked on his jumper, though. He can still be a PG like Joe wants, but he's given time to work on it without having the lead the team every night.

After using that extra $5m, we can still sign a vet min guy as depth, maybe Ben?

Felton/Stuckey/Bynum
Hamilton/Stuckey
Tay/Summers/Daye
Villanueva/Maxiell
FA or Trade/Wallace

If they match on Felton, we still get to go after Gordon since no one else was after him.

It's all your fault, Joe!!!

I still have faith in Joe D, he has made some questionable choices lately but he was also the one who turned this program around. I think he still has some gas in his tank.

I can hardly believe people are calling for Joe D's head, and people on facebook are calling for Dombrowski's. Fucking imbeciles.

What has DD done wrong? He gave Nate and Dontrelle bad extensions, that's about it. Jair for Rent was bad in hindsight, but we still have solid starting pitching anyway.

Unless it's DD's fault that players are hitting like shit.

I'm not asking Joe D to be fired just yet. I'm just saying his drafting needs to taint his resume, that's all.

I'm skeptic this roster will accomplish anything, but that doesn't mean he won't make a deal at some point.

What has DD done wrong? He gave Nate and Dontrelle bad extensions, that's about it. Jair for Rent was bad in hindsight, but we still have solid starting pitching anyway.

Unless it's DD's fault that players are hitting like shit.

I'm not asking Joe D to be fired just yet. I'm just saying his drafting needs to taint his resume, that's all.

I'm skeptic this roster will accomplish anything, but that doesn't mean he won't make a deal at some point.

The Jair for Renteria was horrible before, during and after. Nate and Dontrelle were pretty bad moves as well. But DD does NOT deserve to get fired at all. That's just ridiculous.

How could he authorize a gay pic like this:

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/0f/fullj.bf92058cfd45be2366e82bf693877c89/bf92058cfd45be2366e82bf693877c89-getty-89643103nb047_rookie_shoot.jpg

:dismissed:

We are gonna be terrible.

Not with the next KG (Daye) and the next Artest (Summers)!!!

I thought Daye was the next Tayshaun?

I really gotta start coming here more this off-season...

Daye's skill set is better described as Rashard Lewis with some court vision and shot blocking skills.

It's hard to compare him to tayshaun. Tay has a better defensive IQ and Daye's jumper is extremely fluid and doesnt take 3 minutes to release.

That's actually not a bad comparison. Lewis without the size. Yes, he has the height, but Lewis actually has the muscle to play the 4 and Daye barely has the muscle to play. In terms of style of play, though, Lewis is an all-offense, pure shooter type of guy and that's what Daye is supposed to be. Not saying his D is horrid or anything because I honestly don't know, but he's here for his offense.

Daye was one of the better shot blockers in college last year.

Lewis has 25 pounds on him now, what did he weigh when drafted?

I'd assume that was his weight out of HS. That's still mighty lanky for anyone over 6-9".

It's a lot better than 190 though.

Shit yeah it is. I'm 5'10" and weighed 180 in HS, and I wasn't fat or strong. Makes no sense. Hollow bird bones?

Sorry Herm, but at 5'10" and 180 you were either fat or strong. http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/

OK, I wasn't American fat.

Sorry Herm, but at 5'10" and 180 you were either fat or strong. http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/

That says Daye is normal weight. Normal weight and NBA weight are not the same though.

Daye is Kenyan fat.

another trade deadline, again no trades...RIP is the easy scapregoat right now, but we are going into the offseason with unmovable contracts RIP, Maxiell, Gordon and Villanueva, who are overpaid/not even part of the rotation...also we are going into the offseason with guys Dumars wants to keep - Tmac/Prince/Stuckey - they want to get paid, all of them...if Dumars pays any of these guys some serious money this team is stuck in mediocrity forever(next 4-5years or so)... the last Dumars trade goes back to July 2009, some decent draft picks are not good enough, he ruined this franchise by paying the wrong guys, he needs to go asap!
We need a new GM, why not give a rookie GM a chance? Dumars was great as a rookie GM ... a young, intelligent, hungry GM who wants to change things... Dumars became dull, lazy and made too many mistakes, he needs to face the consequences and resign/or the new owner has to fire him