Afflack and Sharpe to Denver for a future second. Just happened. Let me be the ifrst to post this....

Afflack and Sleepy Eye to Denver for a future second.

I believe I am officially the first to post this. Fucking finally.

So we gain 1.8 mill in cap space. Where the hell does that put us?

Wow, not smart to ditch Afflalo like that, IMO. Oh well.

Yeah, I like(d) Afflalo.

Oh well.

I would have much rather give a first to get rid of Maxiell, but that wasn't happening. Afflalo was a pretty decent backup IMO. Now let's see who we get before we judge this.

ALso, link?

Pistons have 3.6M + 4M (Kwame)=7.6 M
or
Pistons have 3.6M + 5M (Max)-8.6

hopeful we can somehow get Lee, but who knows..

Damn, that sucks. That may mean we're really looking at keeping Rip and Gordon coming off the bench. I don't know how I feel about this.

I liked Afflalo a lot. He had the makings of a solid defensive player. Like Quincey Ross with some offense. I have no problem with Sharpe being gone.

Does this mean Deron Washington is getting that reported guaranteed deal?

What about Daye getting some time at SG? He's ridiculously tall, but he's too thin to play any PF right now and maybe too thin for SF at this point. According to Kstat, he can handle the ball very well. He can shoot the lights out. I'm not saying primary backup or anything like that, but would he be able to play garbage time minutes at SG? Put him out there against a taller, slower SG, or have him guard the SF and have the SF guard the other teams SG. No? Okayseeya.

IMO 3.6 mill is pretty decent. Kwame and our cap space for Camby is doable now if we wanted it with minimal impact to either roster. Similarly Haywood, although these don't really set us up for the future. IMO NY would definitely do the move with David Lee if we wanted to at 6-7 mill starting. He REALLY has no leverage now.

With AA gone, does that mean the chances of rip getting traded is reduced? I guess a rip for a center and shooting guard is possible.

Denver had a trade exemption apparently?

Who really cares anyways. Neither was getting playing time. Basically we trade a guy whose name we can't pronounce so we can play some over priced FA with no defense. A+ Joe, A+.

I don't know if this really reduces Rip being traded. Stuckey is going to get some SG minutes this year. Gordon getting around 33mpg, Stuckey pulls some SG minutes, then a young guy like Washington getting some time pretty much fills up the minutes.


If we used this space to bring in Haywood for Kwame and a pick (saves the Wizards $4mil after the luxury tax), it would be fantastic. He finally showed development on his low-post game 2 years ago (missed last season), and he's always had solid D.

In his last healthy season he put up:
10.5ppg on 53% shooting, 73% from the line, 3.4 offensive boards, 1.7 blocks. He really anchored their D as well. He's shown he can play well next to a SF in a PFs body (Jamison), so he'd do well with CV, IMO.

I'd rather see us grab Okafor, but I wanted us to sign Haywood last offseason instead of Kwame. I probably posted it 20 times, just like the Okafor/Biedrins stuff this offseason.

They have Blatche and McGee at C right now, so they have some depth and can afford to move him.

Denver had a trade exemption apparently?

Who really cares anyways. Neither was getting playing time. Basically we trade a guy whose name we can't pronounce so we can play some over priced FA with no defense. A+ Joe, A+.


I completely agree. Who cares about Afflalo and sharpe? Neither will be anything special in this league and aren't major cogs in any championship run here or anywhere 2, 3, 4 years down the road when the pistons will be legit again.

If dumars can turn this space into another guy that's young, improving and will be able to contribute when they are ready to make another run then it's a coup (Big Baby?).

I disagree on Afflalo not being worth anything. The guy showed some solid D and his offense was really starting to come along. He shot 40% from 3. He's going to develop into a solid role player in this league.

If we don't use this space to grab a C, I'll be upset.

I disagree on Afflalo not being worth anything. The guy showed some solid D and his offense was really starting to come along. He shot 40% from 3. He's going to develop into a solid role player in this league.

If we don't use this space to grab a C, I'll be upset.

I agree, but yargs said neither would be anything special. Solid role player = nothing special.

if this means we keep RIP & Gordon and use the capspace to sign Big Fat Baby Davis i will be very dissapointed...

also Big Fat Ass Davis or Maxiell are not worth more than Afflalo!

For some reason, I doubt Washington takes back Kwame Brown. Haywood seems like a good fit for the Wiz, and I think he could be the difference that COULD put them in the 4th seed.

We on the other hand have to be looking at better options than Haywood. He wouldve been a good player to have next to Rasheed but we are in rebuild mode, and have to look for players with more potential/talent

AA is signed for so little, and I don't think he's the type of player to seek a huge contract either, which is why he has some kind of value. A little disappointed, but if this is a precursor for a move that nets us a bigman, I'll be happy.

on the bright side, this time we got a 2nd round pick from Denver, thats more than we got for Chauncey :)

This trade will have to be linked to the player Joe signs with the extra cap space. As for me, my vote is Gooden. He's taller, more athletic, still young but proven, and the far better fit. If that's what's done with the cap space then I'm ok with the trade. Afflalo truly had no way he could get minutes. It's sad because he's the only backcourt defender the team had, but I guess the plan is to fight offense with more offense.

Unless we move RIP or Tay I don't see where we are going next year. We'd have about 6-8 mil in cap space if we signed one of those big men to a small deal this year. That's not getting us Bosh or Amare. I'm ok with not really competing this year if it means we're back in the title hunt next year. Not sure how we can get there with no center on the roster. It doesn't look like we will move RIP though with no backup SG now (if we did).


LAS VEGAS -- The Detroit Pistons (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=det) have agreed to a trade that would send Arron Afflalo (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3187), Walter Sharpe (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3458) and cash considerations to the Denver Nuggets (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=den) for a future second-round pick, according to NBA front-office sources.
Sources told ESPN.com that the deal is expected to be completed later Monday and will clear nearly $2 million extra in salary-cap space for the Pistons to search for a free-agent big man.
The Nuggets, sources said, will also receive $350,000 to apply to Sharpe's salary next season as a bonus to the acquisition of Afflalo, who played sparingly in Detroit over the past two seasons after the Pistons selected him No. 27 overall in the 2007 draft.
After the recent signings of Ben Gordon (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=2381) and Charlie Villanueva (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=2792), Detroit will have an estimated $3.5 million in cap space after completing this deal.
Among the top available big men still available on the free-agent market are Boston Celtics (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=bos) restricted free agent Glen Davis (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3200) and unrestricted free agent Drew Gooden (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=1711).

BTW, I'm sad to see AA go, but he'll be a great fit in Denver. He'll replace Jones and give them a little more offense than Jones did too.

^I don't think Joe would necessarily sign a player, I think a trade is possible? Perhaps a sign and trade? FOR MARVIN WILLIAMS?! not really..but it's possible...

AA is in a really good situation, could even start if JR and Karl get into arguements or whatever.

But Gooden or Big Baby? Fucking please...

My preference would be Joe Smith on a 1 year deal. We'd have more like 13 mil in space next year, and if we could move Max for an expiring we'd have enough to get Amare or Bosh.

Gooden was beyond horrible for half a season with the Spurs, he did nothing for them...

Marvin? right like we need ANOTHER SG/SF on the roster...

who knows what the cap will look like next season? if it really goes down to 53-50 mil, we won't have capspace anyway...and if i am honest, when i see what Joe D has done with capspace this offseason, i am not optimistic for next season...

also Big Fat Ass Davis or Maxiell are not worth more than Afflalo!

And I completely disagree with you on this. Afflalo is an under-sized 2 guard (6'5" 215) that can't play point and really is nothing more than a spot-up shooter. He can't create shots for himself and has limited range unless kept completely alone in the corner which happens often because he's not a guy opponents concern themselves with.

Big Baby is still young and is a much more accomplished player than afflalo and a guy that has flashed potential on a very big stage. He elevated his game in the playoffs which I love (15.8 points and 5.6 rebounds in 14 games) and is a guy that will be able to get you points close to the basket which is a key attribute for teams that are looking to compete. He's also developing a pretty nice mid-range game.

He's not a future star nor is he probably a starter in this league but he can be a major force off the bench similar to a corliss williamson.

And guys like maxiell (shot-blocking, help-defending energy guys) will always be more important than back-up, spot-up jump shooters like afflalo.

Marvins more of a 3/4 and has way more talent and potential than Tayshaun. I was only kidding about him, but if we were somehow to aquire Marvin, I'd defintely trade Tayshaun for a big.

Yargs, you'd take on a solid bench guy and screw starting center for 3 years?

who knows what the cap will look like next season? if it really goes down to 53-50 mil, we won't have capspace anyway...and if i am honest, when i see what Joe D has done with capspace this offseason, i am not optimistic for next season...

So you'd rather give yourself no chance? Who is your starting center next year? Backup?

My preference would be Joe Smith on a 1 year deal. We'd have more like 13 mil in space next year, and if we could move Max for an expiring we'd have enough to get Amare or Bosh.

he's a FA? Well i think hed be a ring chaser, after signing with the Cavs...

He doesn't really fit our need though. How many more jump shooting bigmen do we need? Plus he's not a good rebounder and isn't capable of playing center.

i do like the idea of signing guys for one year rentals for cheap,who can play center and rebound.

ALL of these guys we're talking about are bench guys...Afflalo could defend well and was still on his rookie contract for 2 seasons...both Maxiell and Davis have mayor flaws and will never be starters in this league, if we really sign Davis for at least 4 mil per year i guess, the Pistons will pay about 9 mil a year for 2 backup PF, one is an energy guy, the other can score well, THATS IT...Afflalo could defend well, this guys are one dimensionel...thats why they are backups

I am warming up to the idea of signing Marvin Williams and then agreeing to trade Boozer for Tay.

JA I agree for for at least 2 years we just weren't going to play him. What value is he then? Don't forget that's not even accounting what happens with Bynum stealing minutes at the point away from Stuck.

So you'd rather give yourself no chance? Who is your starting center next year? Backup?

Did Joe Dumars say we are waiting for the summer of 2010 to cash in on a center?

Are we rebuilding or retooling? We have the talent at every position but the 5 to contend, IMO. rip and tay are at their primes. Why keep them if we are going to rebuild? We have a new coach, don't know how that'll work out but he has experience and success(as an assistance.)

But on the other hand, we have very young players and no team chemistry. Everyone but rip is below the age of 30. If we are rebuilding, trade the fuckers who aren't going to stay for the next 3~5 years.

I really do wonder what Joe's next move will be.

I'd try to get one of these guys to play here for one year (they might knowing the teams with cap space next year):




There are a lot of options actually for backup center if Dice says no. Not sure which (that are worth a damn) would take that little of money though:

Zaza
Moore
Wright
Smith
Petro
Rasho
Mihm
Magloire
Ely
Wilcox
Swift
Foyle
Ratliff
Swift
Frye - official to Suns yet?
Booth
Voskhul (UCONN BABY!)
Collins

He never said he's looking at 2010. But if you simply add talent without addressing the center position you'll be looking many years down the road to compete. You may as well give away RIP and Tay because they'll be washed up by the time you can compete.

We're not getting by Boston, Cleveland or Orlando with Davis/Max/Charlie as our bigs. Period.

CV31 says another big move is coming!

My friend, that is one ugly list.

Every single one of them is a bench player at best, unless you got another star bigman next to them. I hope Joe isn;t looking at FAs.

Zaza resigned and the only ones I'd consider are Jamal Magloire and Chris Wilcox.

on twitter? Post it if you can.

RT @YahooSportsNBA: Detroit creates space, moves Afflalo and Sharpe to Denver: http://bit.ly/16hOLy -- another big move is about to be made!

we could have gotten these guys with 1.7, no need to trade AA for that

Thanks. Now the question is if he actually knows something is going to happen.

Exactly what I was thinking JA. Many of those guys are league min guys we can still get after we are capped out. Magloire? You have gotta be kidding me. Might as well sign Stanley Roberts.

Probably just assuming.

On that list, he looks better than most. Atleast he was an all-star~

was

Yeah, 5 years ago.

I'd rather have him for the leagues min than have big baby for 4 years...but hopefully joe doesnt even need to choose between the 2 of them

Yargs, you'd take on a solid bench guy and screw starting center for 3 years?


Honestly I don't think starting center is really a consideration for dumars right now unless one that he considers solid enough to be around in 2-3 years falls into his lap (and I don't think one currently exists in this market). It's about thinking long-term and collecting valuable assets.

Therefore you use your current roster and space to pick up assets that will either be around when the team is ready to compete or that can be used to trade for pieces later on. That's why dumars will pounce on big baby if he can be had with this cap space.

That's why I like the pistons off-season thus far. Gordon and CV are young and improving with the potential to be really good in a few years. If they add another young, improving player with this newly created space after the afflalo trade then that's a positive as well regardless of position.

They also said good-bye to guys that either won't even be in the league when the pistons are ready to compete (dyess, sheed, hermann, iverson) or any good (afflalo, amir, sharpe). For a team that's looking to the future that's a very positive thing. Being able to cut off that much dead weight is a positive thing and hard to do in professional sports.

Every decision dumars currently makes is based on how this impacts the team 2-3 years from now.

If they can continue to pick up young, improving assets regardless of their position then that's a positive move for the future. When more contracts clear (brown, etc.) or if a big that can rebound and block shots becomes available next year via the mid-level or if a team makes an offer for prince or rip that dumars can't refuse or if you can package some of your new-found assets for something better....

You get the point, it's about having options and not thinking you HAVE to compete right now even if that means you finish in the lottery next season (because that again gives you a valuable asset).

Dumars is making quite a team in Denver.

Go get us Jeff Foster Joe.

This is stupid if we don't get a legit center in trade.

I wasn't crazy about the Afflalo pick when it was made, I even doubted that he'd stick in the league, but he was better than I think everyone here expected.

I know he's not ELITE, but I wonder if Kstat is upset about losing his stellar perimeter defense. I would guess no.

Time to play with "Fun with Rip + $3m cap space for a center" deals.

Or just get ready for Big Baby/Chris Wilcox.

It's absolutely retarded to trade the only guard we have that can play defense. He was cheap, showed leadership, was a great FT shooter (and shot a lot of techs in close games) and was actually very good in the clutch. We never got to see what he could do as he got sporadic minutes and was the 4th or 5th option on offense. I wouldn't say that's special but that's pretty good for a 2nd year player who was a late 1st rd. pick. Hell, he did a decent job of covering Lebron (in limited minutes) in last years playoffs.Trading a guy who did everything you asked of him for a future late second is a joke. Joe better pull of something good here. With absolutely no defense we might as well be the called the Detroit Knicks.

I think the larger issue is that now we only have 3 SGs. That's clearly not enough.

You forgot about Deron Washington. Reportedly there is a rumor he might be able to play D.

That post was only half serious.

we could have gotten these guys with 1.7, no need to trade AA for that

Of course. He has to use the cap space in a trade, then sign one of those guys cheap as a backup. That's it.

Charlie V is twittering about a "big move" on the way, after the Afflalo deal is complete...

I really hope a trade with Utah is on the horizon.

Something that involves Rip, Tay and Kwame and nets us Boozer, AK47 and one of their young centers (Koufos, Fesenko) would be nice.

Only 9 players under contract right now (if you don't count Washington or Oberto's old contract)

Rip
Tay
Gordon
Charlie V.
Kwame
Max
Stuckey
Daye
Bynum

DaJuan Summers will definitely be signed. That's 10. Washington makes 11 simply because he can step into the afflalo role.

Afflalo and McDyess were our two best looking players.

:we: are officially the ugliest team in the league. :emo kid:

isnt there a caphold when you don't got 12 players under contract, doesnt that cut into the capspace?

yeah.

caphold for 3 players at 440k each = 1,2 mil // 3.5 -1.2 =2.3 left, that wouldnt make much sense...

Afflalo wasn't a "great" FT shooter. He shot 80%. That's not bad by any means, but great is upper 80s for a guard. Rip and Billups are great FT shooters.

Depending on how you view AK47, that's not a TERRIBLE idea, Glenn, but not one I'd want to pursue.

Tay and AK47 expire at the same time. Boozer is here for a year and gone. We'd have a backup C with whichever young C we get. But after this year, who starts at C for us? Boozer expires, his 12mil minus Kwame's 4mil turns into 8mil extra off the cap next year, but if the cap goes down we're not going to have room for a starting C. Look at the 2010 Offseason Outlook thread for the numbers. Are we going to rely on the young C we get in that trade to be our starter?

Afflalo wasn't a "great" FT shooter. He shot 80%. That's not bad by any means, but great is upper 80s for a guard. Rip and Billups are great FT shooters.

Depending on how you view AK47, that's not a TERRIBLE idea, Glenn, but not one I'd want to pursue.

Tay and AK47 expire at the same time. Boozer is here for a year and gone. We'd have a backup C with whichever young C we get. But after this year, who starts at C for us? Boozer expires, but if the cap goes down, we're not going to have room for a starting C. Look at the 2010 Offseason Outlook thread for the numbers.

Nice plug, lol.

Afflalo and McDyess were our two best looking players.

:we: are officially the ugliest team in the league. :emo kid:

Glan's boy.

Nice plug, lol.
I didn't feel like reposting them.

CV better actually know something and not just speculating. If our choices are Drew Gooden or Big Baby (hmm, do you want garbage or trash? tough choice), I am going to be pretty pissed.

I hope Joe has an actual target and isn't just going "well lets get the space and decide afterwards who to try and use it on". Because nobody good is out there.

Well WTF, WTF.

Calling it right now:

Afflalo will be a tremendous asset to the Nuggets.

I can't decide if it's a good thing that Charlie is claiming to know something or a bad thing.

Why would anyone from the front office tell him anything?

I'm guessing they wouldn't.

afflalo is a nice kid and a hard working player. but i never liked us drafting him and i'm sure not sorry he's gone now. he is supremely challenged athletically and was never going to be a difference maker. he was a solid defender and was developing a decent spot up J.

but given the roster makeover, i don't see him being a big loss of any kind. i would have preferred we traded our OTHER SG, but joe seems intent on keeping rip and prince. (to the team's longterm detriment IMO)

but even with this said, i would've thought we could get a future 1st out of denver. i guess not, but it just seems that since he was a 1st just a couple of years ago, you'd hope to recoup that pick in a deal like this. we don't gain all that much cap space by making the move so.....well i guess i'll have to wait and see what we do next.

but we need to do more trades than this if we're REALLY going to start back on the right path. signing somebody- ANYBODY- now will not nearly be enough. i'm expecting more and will be disappointed without another big move.

Doesn anyone actually like the Afflalo trade?

I understand the reason behind it but it still doesn't sit right.

I can't decide if it's a good thing that Charlie is claiming to know something or a bad thing.

Why would anyone from the front office tell him anything?

I'm guessing they wouldn't.

its his good Uconn friend OKAFOR who called him & Gordon and told him, he will be traded to the Pistons soon. ^^

its his good Uconn friend OKAFOR who called him & Gordon and told him, he will be traded to the Pistons soon. ^^

CHICKEN DINNER

Who doesn't like this trade? Sharpe blows, Daye Summers and JJ are lightyears better than that day walker.

Afflalo was a solid player, but he hit his peak. With his limited athleticism, he couldn't guard Kobe, Lebron, Pierce, etc. Orlando has Pietrus coming off the bench, San Antonio can throw Bruce Bowen (once he returns) off the bench, and the Pistons throw out Arron Afflalo. It is apparent now that Afflalo will never be a lock down player, and with his limited offense, fuckhim.

What will be interesting is the player Joe gets THIS YEAR in free agency. If he doesn't get any good big man, he will be kicking himself because he could have kept Oberto and gone with an Oberto/Kwame platoon at center (which is perfectly fine for a rebuilding team, both players expire after this year).

Trading AA this soon makes it another bad draft pick for Joe

Can't wait to see Pharaoh's take

I don't follow that philosophy. Because he was traded after two years to make room for something else makes him a bad draft pick? That's bull. He was drafted in the mid-20s. He's not a bad draft pick at all.

I don't follow that philosophy. Because he was traded after two years to make room for something else makes him a bad draft pick? That's bull. He was drafted in the mid-20s. He's not a bad draft pick at all.

He now provides us with nothing but his absence. That makes a pick bad.

If a guy that you used a first rd pick on isn't even worthy of being in the rotation for a team this depleted, then it's a bad pick IMO

3 deep = depleted.

He now provides us with nothing but his absence. That makes a pick bad.


Good point. Except when Joe actually signs someone or trades for them, that point is no longer valid. Just because Joe hasn't made a move yet, doesn't mean he's not going to make one. He's obviously planning something, and needed to free up space.

If a guy that you used a first rd pick on isn't even worthy of being in the rotation for a team this depleted, then it's a bad pick IMO
Seriously? So every single player drafted in the first round needs to start? That's a very large starting lineup, methinks.

yes, more precious capspace! maybe we can sign another guy who can shot the 3 and can't defend a bit!?

its Okafor or bust for me, Glen Davis is my worst nightmare

He now provides us with nothing but his absence. That makes a pick bad.

So does that mean that Gordon was a bad pick for Chicago? Shaq a bad pick for the Magic? Hakeem a bad pick for the Rockets?

Uh, players who left as FA's are not the same as trading a guy for cap space. Not even close. I'm sure the Magic would have retained Shaq if he wanted to stay.

So does that mean that Gordon was a bad pick for Chicago? Shaq a bad pick for the Magic? Hakeem a bad pick for the Rockets?

painfully stupid. Apologize for your dumb please.

Good point. Except when Joe actually signs someone or trades for them, that point is no longer valid.


No, you have wasted the opportunity of the pick and the restrictions in his pay. Picks have intrinsic value and you are ignoring that. You are responding to a situation where we extend a guy and get stuck with him.

A good pick is not a guy who is good enough to be dumped just as CV won't be a good signing if we can get rid of him in 2 years regardless of what that brings. Cap space is valuable, as are picks.

Seriously? So every single player drafted in the first round needs to start? That's a very large starting lineup, methinks.


rotation =/= start.

3 deep = depleted.
If he had panned out, then maybe we wouldn't have had to keep drafting, signing and converting SGs

AA's value is less than when Joe drafted him, thus he was a bad pick. If AA was a good value at #20 then we would have gotten a first round pick back for him. The fact that we got a 2nd round pick for a late first and early 2nd round players means their values are less than when drafted.

If either had contributed to a title win, than maybe you could say oh well, the loss in value was worth it because they helped us win in the short term (this may happen with Blair in SA). It wasn't the case.

If the cap space turns into a big trade then I can overlook part of wasting the picks. They were still bad picks though.

No, you have wasted the opportunity of the pick and the restrictions in his pay. Picks have intrinsic value and you are ignoring that. You are responding to a situation where we extend a guy and get stuck with him.

A good pick is not a guy who is good enough to be dumped just as CV won't be a good signing if we can get rid of him in 2 years regardless of what that brings. Cap space is valuable, as are picks.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Mateen Cleaves was an awful draft pick, but Joe got Jon Barry out of it so I was fine with it. If a draft pick can be used as a rotation player or for a different purpose, then it's a good draft pick. What about teams that draft someone and then instantly trade him? They get nothing out of it except for a future pick. If he ends up nabbing a player with equal or greater value, this was a successful draft.



I think a lot of people are upset because Joe hasn't made a trade yet, but that doesn't mean it's not coming. I'm frustrated as well, but teams sit on deals for a long time occasionally. If the Pistons start the season with this lineup, then have a bitchfest.

But for now, CHILL THE FUCK OUT EVERYONE.

If he had panned out, then maybe we wouldn't have had to keep drafting, signing and converting SGs

If they had panned out we might have used Gordon's money on a different position. Different types of players, but at #20 I'm pretty sure Joe expected to find his long term backup SG.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Mateen Cleaves was an awful draft pick, but Joe got Jon Barry out of it so I was fine with it. If a draft pick can be used as a rotation player or for a different purpose, then it's a good draft pick. What about teams that draft someone and then instantly trade him? They get nothing out of it except for a future pick. If he ends up nabbing a player with equal or greater value, this was a successful draft.
I'm a big fan of Jon Barry. That being said, would you have drafted him at #12? I certainly would not have. You'd expect to get a younger Jon Barry in the late first if you were drafting that type of player. Where did Buddinger go, middle of the 2nd? He's that type of player.

If you are drafting in the lotto you expect to find a starting player that will be part of your rotation for many years. Not a solid backup guard in his mid 30's. If you traded the #12 pick on draft day, there is no way you'd be taking Barry back. End of story.

Just because he mitigated his mistake a little doesn't mean it wasn't a total waste of a pick. What did we get for Rodney White? A 2nd rounder?

Face it, they were bad picks. Joe made up for some of them with savvy trades. Eventually it catches up with you when you have no depth developed.

Re Mateen

Just because someone stupidly bailed Joe out, it doesn't make it a good pick

Re Mateen

Just because someone stupidly bailed Joe out, it doesn't make it a good pick

I said that Mateen was a terrible pick. But don't say he got lucky for making the trade.

So if you have the option to get a good big man, but you need to get some salary off the books, you wouldn't trade Afflalo? Afflalo doesn't fit into the Pistons plans now, but he played a solid role IN THE ROTATION while he was here. That's a fine draft pick. The NBA isn't pick-up basketball. It's like a game of chess - you need to get the right pieces, and you'll need to sacrafice other pieces to get the right ones in place.

I said that Mateen was a terrible pick. But don't say he got lucky for making the trade.

So if you have the option to get a good big man, but you need to get some salary off the books, you wouldn't trade Afflalo?


Again, just like in the mateen take, we got less than value than the original value of the pick.

If we end up with a good big man I'll be happy about that trade, and Joe's actions to make it available, but not the original pick.

Right now it's another black mark on Joe's drafting record or a bad trade. Either the guy was a 1st round pick who wasn't worth it and he was dumped for a late 2nd OR we gave him away too cheaply. This may very well be a precursor to another deal but I'm really sad to see AA go and Joe better do something or this team is really going to suck. We currently have one player who plays D (Tayshaun) and a shitload of question marks (no real PG, Kwame at C, new unproven coach, no d.)

Mateen got us Barry and a late first. I think we swapped it for the Hawks pick (through Sactown via the Dickau trade) that we originally owed to them in the Stackhouse deal. Who was that pick actually used on?

charlie V seems to think a big move is now in the works, according to his twitter account. does he know something we don't? doubtful!

Borrowed from another website:

Seriously, his defensive stats are off the charts good.
He gave up 41.2% EFG, and 13.6 PER to opponents.

comparing it to other players:
Kobe - 50.3% EFG, 14.1 PER
Raja Bell - 53.5% EFG, 15.8 PER
Artest - 45.9% EFG, 12.3 PER
Wade - 48.7% EFG, 15.4 PER
Bowen - 40.2% EFG, 13.9 PER

This shows that Afflalo was a more than adequate defender.

Is Joe going to be the new GM for Denver????? He sure seems to like to give them good deals.

He also faced 2nd strong opponents far more than the guys you mentioned.

Here's a couple other players of note:

Rip: 48.9% EFG, 13.3 PER
Tay: 50.5% EFG, 13.2 PER

In limited minutes, especailly if 82games.com gets the lineup wrong, the PER calculations can get whacked.

Also, when was Wade considered a top defender? He made a lot of progress at the Olympics, but he's not a top defender like the others on that list. Bell and Bowen are both getting long in the tooth too.

Chris, Wade has long been considered a top defender. He played stellar defense on that title run they had.

And its laughable that anyone could use statistics to show Afflalo is more than a capable defender. Anyone who saw him go against Kobe, Lebron, Pierce, etc. knows what I am talking about. He plays solid, but he is not disruptive.

Chris, Wade has long been considered a top defender. He played stellar defense on that title run they had.

And its laughable that anyone could use statistics to show Afflalo is more than a capable defender. Anyone who saw him go against Kobe, Lebron, Pierce, etc. knows what I am talking about. He plays solid, but he is not disruptive.

Anyone who saw Tay defend LeBron recently would conclude that he is below tissue paper. :(

All I would expect from backups is solid D to keep superstars honest for a few minutes (as honest as the refs will permit it to be) and give the starter some breathing room.

I don't think Afflalo can do that. He doesn't take chances, and guys just shoot over him.

which is ironic, considering he takes more chances offensively than any 10th man in NBA history...

guys like afflalo are a dime a dozen. how much PT did people seriously expect him to get this year anyway?

He also faced 2nd strong opponents far more than the guys you mentioned.

Afflalo played 18 or more minutes in 34 games. I'm sure some of that time was against starters. The guy is a good player and the Denver fans in several forums are really happy to get him and consider it a steal. I just don't understand why more of you aren't unhappy about losing one of our better youngsters for virtually nothing.

guys like afflalo are a dime a dozen. how much PT did people seriously expect him to get this year anyway?

Um, since there is a good chance that Rip gets moved, I expected AA to see similar to slightly increased PT. I was expecting around 18 mpg.

actually IMO it's looking more and more like rip will NOT be moved. that disappoints me but it's how i see it right now.

afflalo is/was a decent player. i don't think anyone is disputing that. but his skills are VERY replaceable.

i'm not upset because i thought we never should've drafted him to begin with. i don't hate the kid and he's a alright guy and player too. i just think he lacks the athleticism we need and his defensive abilities and 3 point shooting are hardly unique in any way that would make me miss him.

i'm sure he'll do ok in denver. that still doesn't mean we made a mistake in dumping him. personally i think we should've tried to get a future 1st but they also knew we wanted/needed to dump him badly. all i'm saying is that guys like him come out every year. in fact, guys like him but with MUCH better athleticism come out every year. so i don't see any reason to be upset at 'losing' him.

he's a very replaceable player.

Everyone seems to think that we just got rid of him for a 2nd. We didn't move him for a second, we moved him for a 2nd and cap space. Big difference. Teams move late-1st picks for a 2nd and cap space quite often, and those aren't considered "failed draft picks". I don't think this has any baring on Joe's drafting record. Afflalo was a rotation player for us in his 2nd year. He played 70+ games, I believe, and he was averaging over 15mpg. That's rotation.

Afflalo only got as much burn as he did because of injuries.

Afflalo only got as much burn as he did because of injuries.
What injury? Iverson's phantom injury? He played a role last season, even if it was a role for an idiot coach on a shitty team.

Everyone seems to think that we just got rid of him for a 2nd. We didn't move him for a second, we moved him for a 2nd and cap space. Big difference. Teams move late-1st picks for a 2nd and cap space quite often, and those aren't considered "failed draft picks". I don't think this has any baring on Joe's drafting record. Afflalo was a rotation player for us in his 2nd year. He played 70+ games, I believe, and he was averaging over 15mpg. That's rotation.

Exactly. Everyone is so down on Joe right now because they can't see behind the scenes. When a trade goes down, then we'll decide if getting rid of Aaron Afflalo was a good idea. As of right now, it gets an "inc." grade.

Everyone seems to think that we just got rid of him for a 2nd. We didn't move him for a second, we moved him for a 2nd and cap space. Big difference. Teams move late-1st picks for a 2nd and cap space quite often, and those aren't considered "failed draft picks". I don't think this has any baring on Joe's drafting record. Afflalo was a rotation player for us in his 2nd year. He played 70+ games, I believe, and he was averaging over 15mpg. That's rotation.

Um I think everyone realizes that bit of cap space was the key motivator of the deal. The problem is, everyone thinks our targets are Big Baby or Drew Gooden. Both of whom are garbage.

yea those are some shitty targets. Probably why Joe is lower on expectations this year.

Everyone is saying Afflalo was a failure of a draft pick because we took him in the first and traded him for a 2nd. That's not smart thinking. We traded for Oberto then cut him. Does that make him a bad signing? No, because we did it for cap reasons.

I think the point is, if you make a good draft pick in the 1st round, he should be worth more than a 2nd round pick and about a million in cap space.

If your guy isn't worth more than that, he's a bad pick.

Now it might end up being a good trade, if Afflalo wasn't going to contribute and the guy that the $1m helps get does, but it still doesn't make it a good draft pick.

Joe made a bad draft pick when he selected Mateen but a good (actually great) trade when he dumped him for Barry and a 1st.

Those two things are mutually exclusive.

We traded for Oberto then cut him. Does that make him a bad signing? No, because we did it for cap reasons.

Better get something better than Oberto for that $1.5m we saved by cutting him, then.

The Wizards are talking to Oberto now, and it would have been nice to have sent him there as part of a Haywood or Blatche deal.

If we could sign Oberto for $1.5m right now, would you like the signing?

You say that making a good trade doesn't make it a good pick, but you're saying its a bad pick because he only got a 2nd in the trade. Either the trade matters in how the pick is judged or it doesn't.

Good point, there is a hole in my rationale there.

It's a bad pick because he wasn't worth keeping and he didn't bring back equal or better value.

How's that?

If another team had given us three future 1sts for Afflalo, does that make him a good pick or does that mean the other GM is just really stupid?

There's also the opportunity cost of Afflalo not being better the last few years.

Depends on what Joe does. If he actually keeps Rip and Gordon and uses the extra space to get a C, then he wouldn't have had a role here. Doesn't mean he isn't a good player. We can't make our draft picks based on what we think we'll get in FA 2-3 years later.

If we could sign Oberto for $1.5m right now, would you like the signing?


As of right now, probably.

Things are still fluid, obviously.

David Aldridge


Pistons eyeing 'Big Baby?'

Meanwhile, the Pistons, no longer among the Eastern Conference's power teams, are trying to build a new team on the fly, and will try to add anther piece in the next week at the expense of one of their old rivals, the Boston Celtics. A Monday trade of guards Arron Afflalo and Walter Sharpe to the Denver Nuggets was done to help make a run at Celtics restricted free agent forward Glen "Big Baby" Davis, according to several sources.
But the Pistons will have trouble creating enough cap room in order to make a serious run at Davis, who starred for the Celtics in Kevin Garnett's absence in the playoffs. After Monday's trade, which cleared an additional $1.8 million in cap room, Detroit only has eight players under contract, not including its three drafted players -- Austin Daye, DeJuan Summers and Jonas Jurebko. (The Pistons will keep all three of their rookies.) The Pistons' current outlay next season for its eight veterans, including the newly signed Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva, along with other monies like the $1.9 million that remains on its cap after waiving veteran center Fabricio Oberto and the first-round money due to Daye, is about $53.8 million. With the cap set for next year at $57.7 million, that only leaves a little less than $4 million if Detroit wanted to sign Davis to an offer sheet. But the Celtics would likely match such an offer.

If the Pistons decide not to offer a sheet to Davis, they will likely sign one or two veteran big men for the league minimum.

Detroit's latest move was only one on another busy offseason day.

YIPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

~cue Chris Wilcox theme music~

Afflalo, Sharpe dealt to free space for a frontliner
BY VINCE ELLIS • FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITER • July 14, 2009

LAS VEGAS -- The Pistons helped pave the way to acquire another big man by trading guard Arron Afflalo, forward Walter Sharpe and cash to the Denver Nuggets on Monday for a second-round pick in a move that clears an estimated $1.8 million in salary-cap space.

After signing free agents Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva last week, the Pistons had $3.2 million to address the gaping hole in their roster along the frontline. The only players on the roster capable of playing up front are Villanueva, Kwame Brown and Jason Maxiell, so the Pistons need more size.

The Pistons reportedly are interested in acquiring Celtics restricted free agent Glen Davis, a second-year power forward who is coming off a breakout postseason run when he replaced an injured Kevin Garnett.

Davis, at 6-9 and 289 pounds, is considered a little short for power forward but is able to compensate with his bulk. He has a good mid-range jumper and is a good rebounder.

If the Pistons make Davis an offer, the Celtics would have seven days to match.

Other free agents who could fit the bill are Knicks center Chris Wilcox, Spurs power forward Drew Gooden and Cavs power forward Joe Smith.

The Pistons also could make a push for Jazz power forward Carlos Boozer, who is on the trading block. Other trade possibilities are Clippers big men Chris Kaman and Marcus Camby and Hornets center Tyson Chandler.

Afflalo was a first-round pick in 2007 but didn't see consistent minutes during his two seasons with the Pistons. Sharpe appeared in nine games as a rookie last season.

we really need extra capspace to sign these bums? really?

Just remember the rumors were that we were hot after Boozer and Millsap also.

What injury? Iverson's phantom injury? He played a role last season, even if it was a role for an idiot coach on a shitty team.
Role player isn't the same as rotation player. Somewhere between AI's phantom injury and Rip's real one, Afflalo got a bit more time than he would have otherwise. I planned to write more, but got tied up and posted what I did. He was the 4th guard in something resembling a 3-guard rotation last year, and no one was really backing up Tay in a rotation capacity. <groan>

I'm not saying this because I hate Afflalo. I'm bummed that we've traded him.

Oh, and whoever wrote the above article saying that Glen Davis is a good rebounder should be shot for incompetence.

Davis is basically Corliss with another inch or two on him. Solid post player, marginal rebounding/defending.

Davis is basically Corliss with another inch or two on him. Solid post player, marginal rebounding/defending.
Corliss hit people with the basketball when they went after him. Davis just cried.

Big Baby? FUCK ME.

Does Joe D ever bother to think ahead? I mean the fact that we'd have no Center has been pretty obvious for a while even going into free agency. Now we're scrambling to choose between Big Baby and Drew Gooden and maybe Wilcox (if i had to choose out of the 3 i'd choose him, but it's like having to choose between a pile of shit, weeks old molding trash, or a bucket of puke. btw all three are coated in urine.)

I'm cool with Wilcox as a backup PF/C to Charlie and ______. Too bad we don't have the starting center yet.

Maybe Chirs Wilcox has a brother or cousin that could help fill in, too?

i wish we had been able to trade prince for kaman.

It's amazing how fast a team can go down the shitter.

I hate Gooden, and if I were to ever watch him in a Detroit uniform he would have to shave that thing off the back of his head.

i don't think he can- it would have to be surgically removed.

I thought he shaved it off a couple years ago. Shows how much I know/care about Drew Gooden.

well he had it treated with a few rounds of chemo and it went into remission, but now it's back.

I'm not reading 15 pages of this depressing stuff.

We started with almost $18 mil in cap space and somehow we now have to deal The Enforcer Double A (and Walter Sharpe) to create salary cap room!

Did I miss a meeting or something?

I'm not saying Double A was gonna be great but to ship a young guy that works hard out for "cap room" when you just pissed away $18 mil in the fucking first place blows my mind.

We should have traded Rip or Tay for a decent fucking C, Joe.

Stupid, stupid move. But don't worry guys - we'll be awesome in 2 years!

Fuck 2012, Joe - what are we supposed to do in the meantime? You gonna let fans in for free? Of course not. You're gonna charge them full price. Well fucking deliver a full team - not a bunch of perimeter shooters with no real big man.

Here's the deal Joe - I'll fly over and see a game. But only if I can pay 3/4 of the ticket price. How's that sound? Not good enough, right?

Exactly you stupid fuck.

Looks like John Hammond took the brains trust to Milwaukee...

BTW, who are we gonna get with this "new" cap space?

Chris Wilcox? You have got to be fucking with me.

How depressing is this shit...

you need to get a grip on reality....

I need to get a grip?

Reality? You wanna talk about reality?

Almost $18 mil in cap space got us Ben Gordon and Powder. I'm fine with Charlie's deal but when we already have Rip, AA, Stuckey and Bynum on the books why spend more than half the cap space on another guard?

Simple question, isn't it? Yet to read an intelligent response that can convince me we spent our money wisely.

Did we need/want Gordon more than a legit big man that can play D?

That's another simple question.

Was it completely freaking impossible to trade for a reasonable big man with all our assets?

That's a simple question, too.

And here's another simple question Kstat AND I'll do you one favour and answer it for you:

If Joe does in fact sign some "placeholder" to help at C for this coming season or even (God forbid, 2010-11)will you whine during the season about our crappy bigs?

Answer: You know you will.

So stop selling Joe's moves or lack thereof like you're trying to get me to buy into the Pistons. In case you hadn't noticed I'm a fucking fan already.

I'm not going to explain why Joe got Gordon, since Joe hasnt explained that to me (or anybody else, for that matter).

If Joe keeps rip and Gordon that will be up for debate, but as of now nobody knows what the fuck he's planning.

The bottom line from my perspective is, 1.Ben Gordon was the best player on the market, and we weren't so talented that we can pass up young talent. 2. THERE WAS NOBODY OUT THERE TO SIGN. Pachulia and Gortat are backups. I'd rather have no decent bigs than pay a backup starters' money to come here and eat cap space so when someone decent DOES become available, we have no money left because we gave it to nazr mohammed part 2.

If we get some placeholder and he plays like one next year, will i bitch? Absolutely. Will it be directed at Joe? No, unless I see some concrete mistake he made by not getting us a better available center.


Was it completely freaking impossible to trade for a reasonable big man with all our assets?

So stop selling Joe's moves or lack thereof like you're trying to get me to buy into the Pistons. In case you hadn't noticed I'm a fucking fan already.

...and this is why you've lost all grip on reality.

Joe hasn't even finished making moves yet, and you're passing final judgment. I mean, you can do that, but god forbid he swings a trade for a decent big, you look like a tool for giving out a final grade when the assignment wasn't even due yet.

If you can't get a grip on reality, at least get a grip on a calender. It's July, not november.

Lastly, I'm not trying to "sell" anybody anything. I'm simply stating why you just might be overreacting a tad.

It's not matter of Joe getting Gordon. It's a matter of Joe getting Gordon on the first fucking day and overpaying him at that. This off season was supposed to turn this team around whether you want to admit it or not. Joe trading Billups for AI was an absolute fucking catastrophe. This was supposed to fix that. We knew that we needed bigs. If we can't get that, than at least we should be able to get some bargains. Overpaying for Gordon (since nobody else even made him a fucking offer) and Charlie V (same) we lost the ability to get any great deals.

It's a basic sports concept that if accumulate quality players with good contracts, you can trade them if they don't work out. There were a lot of players who signed reasonable contracts (Ariza, Bass, Frye, etc.) and still more possible steals available (Odom, Lee, etc.) but we can't do anything about those now because we already used up our cap. Our team is a joke right now with almost no defense, Kwame at C (with no back up) and a shitload of guards.

We essentially traded, Billups, Dice, Sheed, AA and flexibility for Gordon, Charlie V., and almost no flexibility. So far that sucks.

Dude, the last time I checked our assets were starting to disappear.

When the season ended we had:

Kwame = gonna be an expiring
Amir = gonna be an expiring

4 Draft picks = either to trade up or wait until free agency and use them to trade for a capable player from a tax team.

Every player under contract - all have certain value in trades.

PLUS

almost $18 million of cap space to take back larger contracts.

Amir is gone and Berto Bettle is too.

We dumped a draft pick for nothing (don't know why) and apparently our 3 draftees are pretty damn good so they can still be used in deals.

We've yet to make a trade that helps us and with all this talk of a Rip, Gordon, Stuckey backcourt and Tay mentoring Daye I don't see one coming soon partially because we spent our cap space...

Which was the one thing that put us in the driver's seat, what made Joe King.

And he blew it. On a guard. Yeah the dude is good and he's young and he's gonna do some damage (I'm the dude that saw it coming for a long time, remember) but for that price?

Shouldn't have done it, especially not when we were in pole position. It's not really a take it or leave it scenario but the Bulls blinked and we were too busy handing him cash to notice.

And now with AA gone you're gonna have to really sell me a Rip trade idea cause if he goes we're left with Stuckey, Gordon and Bynum who defends the bigger guards? Stuckey? If that happens I'm not gonna be happy cause I don't like midget tag teams and adding an extra midget doesn't make it more fun - just more annoying.

trading AA for cap would only be a good move IF its needed in a RIP trade for a big, then again we lack a backup SG, but that could be fixed easier than a starting big...again signing Gordon was a good move, but you have to move RIP...also i think we could have gotten Gordon a bit cheaper and saved some cap with a lower starting salary...

It's not matter of Joe getting Gordon. It's a matter of Joe getting Gordon on the first fucking day and overpaying him at that. This off season was supposed to turn this team around whether you want to admit it or not. Joe trading Billups for AI was an absolute fucking catastrophe. This was supposed to fix that. We knew that we needed bigs. If we can't get that, than at least we should be able to get some bargains. Overpaying for Gordon (since nobody else even made him a fucking offer) and Charlie V (same) we lost the ability to get any great deals.

It's a basic sports concept that if accumulate quality players with good contracts, you can trade them if they don't work out. There were a lot of players who signed reasonable contracts (Ariza, Bass, Frye, etc.) and still more possible steals available (Odom, Lee, etc.) but we can't do anything about those now because we already used up our cap. Our team is a joke right now with almost no defense, Kwame at C (with no back up) and a shitload of guards.

We essentially traded, Billups, Dice, Sheed, AA and flexibility for Gordon, Charlie V., and almost no flexibility. So far that sucks.

fully agreed..but the offseason isnt over...which seems to be the arguement for this board.

The arguement?

Or the astronaut?

The Argonaunts?

The Aggressionaunts?

What?

It's summer for many of you - get the fuck outside.

p is a little angry:(

Really?

Are you sure?

Be certain.

Am I or am I not a reasonable human being? Be careful, fuckheads.

As you can see I have returned to my regular fuck this, fuck that posting, which has made me rather "angry"...

or has it?

Maybe I am playing Devil's Advocate?

Maybe I'm not?

Maybe I'm just playing with myself?

Or maybe I should be?

Goodnight to you all, my Areyougonnagomywaynauts.

Definitely just playing with himself . . .

Giffman has pics to prove it (don't post them please).

If I can't post those pics then how about the ones of you and I that warm, crazy, drunken night in Tijuana?

1.Ben Gordon was the best player on the market, and we weren't so talented that we can pass up young talent. 2. THERE WAS NOBODY OUT THERE TO SIGN.
Were there a bunch of assets that could be shaken free due to the economy? Could we have been a trade facilitator? By blowing all our wad early, we surely didn't give ourselves a chance to find out. You're taking the pessimistic stance that all RFAs would be matched and no team would do losing moves to our benefit just to save money, so the only thing that was available were the UFAs and maybe the expirings. It's never that simple.

I can say one thing -- no one else was lining up to pay Ben Gordon $50 million right at the get-go, and he plays a position where we arguably needed the least help. Now we have a guy who's gonna need a taller PG to cover his can't-defend-at-SG shortcomings, and we have only one of those. I'm SOooo looking forward to a Gordon and Bynum pairing.

MARCIN FREAKING GOTRAT WAS MATCHED. Anybody that bids on a restricted free agent is either a total fool or someone with nothing to lose.

Not to mention, we would ahve lost anybody else we wanted after 7 days.

Gortat was matched because Orlando could, because they got in on a 4-way trade that improved their flexibility. We might've gotten involved in such trades if we hadn't committed the cap space already.

and yet, not one such deal made so far would have been a good one for the Pistons.

You can play in fantasy land and just assume that there was this phantom mega-deal that nobody has mentioned or even implied that Dumars and only Dumars could have gotten in on, but that isn't reality.

You do not tell young, gifted FAs like Gordon and V to wait. You will lose them. Maybe you're fine with that, but I'm not.

Chicago told Gordon to go away rather than overpaying him.

There's nothing Gordon has done to suggest that we're doing anything BUT overpay him.

30% shooting in the last three games of a playoff series, when things were key, for a guy whose big claim to fame is being a fucking shooter.

Yeah, you do tell him to wait if he wants $11 million/year -- wait until he gets better, until he can defend and be more well-rounded.

If I can't post those pics then how about the ones of you and I that warm, crazy, drunken night in Tijuana?

I only pretended I was drunk.

Chicago offered him MORE than that in previous years. They couldn't beat the offer because of the luxury tax. it isnt because they didnt want him.

Also, stop harping on a stupid 3-game window. God forbid he got tired of being the only guy on that team who could score.

Again, $11 million for a player of his caliber is slightly above market value, but its not like we gave him rashard lewis money. I'd much rather have a building block like Gordon than what else was out there.

I only pretended I was drunk.

Whatever gets you through the night, big boy . . .

Chicago offered him MORE than that in previous years. They couldn't beat the offer because of the luxury tax. it isnt because they didnt want him.

Also, stop harping on a stupid 3-game window. God forbid he got tired of being the only guy on that team who could score.

Again, $11 million for a player of his caliber is slightly above market value, but its not like we gave him rashard lewis money. I'd much rather have a building block like Gordon than what else was out there.

Perhaps I missed it but NOBODY had made offers to Gordon. We didn't need another SG. He's a good player but with what is in place right now, we overpaid for another fucking SG when we have other needs. If you overpay for a player that you NEED, I'm ok with it. If you get a deal on a player that you don't need, I'm ok with that too. Charlie V. was not really a need because he isn't very good defensively. There goes another 6.5 mil. Now we are handcuffed.

Are there deals to be had if we had cap space? It's quite possible but we won't be in on any of them. What will Lee sign for? What about Odom? Bass was a good deal at 4.5 mil per and he can play some limited time at C. What about our ability to make trades and take on salaries. That's gone.

Now our team's success is hinging on whatever moves are left which are few and very limited. Are you happy with Kwame as our starting center? REALLY?? Who will be his back-up? Wilcox? Gooden? I think I just threw up in mouth a little.

How about our guard situation? Are you happy with that? We gave away the only one who played defense. Stuckey IS NOT a PG. He just isn't. What happens if Gordon outplays Rip? Does Rip go to the bench? He we go again with that.

This team is no where close to competing with some overloaded positions and even more glaring holes. We can't stop anybody so we'll have to outscore them. That does not bode well. Not well at all.

I smell what micknugget is cooking.

I smell what micknugget is cooking.
Typically the first sign that you're wrong...

Okay, where is he wrong?

The only places I disagree with him is that none of the remaining guards play defense (Rip is decent) and saying that we are "nowhere close to competing" (we're close to competing, we're just not close to contending).

Otherwise that just about sums it up. IMO.

It's not matter of Joe getting Gordon. It's a matter of Joe getting Gordon on the first fucking day and overpaying him at that. This off season was supposed to turn this team around whether you want to admit it or not. Joe trading Billups for AI was an absolute fucking catastrophe. This was supposed to fix that. We knew that we needed bigs. If we can't get that, than at least we should be able to get some bargains. Overpaying for Gordon (since nobody else even made him a fucking offer) and Charlie V (same) we lost the ability to get any great deals.

It's a basic sports concept that if accumulate quality players with good contracts, you can trade them if they don't work out. There were a lot of players who signed reasonable contracts (Ariza, Bass, Frye, etc.) and still more possible steals available (Odom, Lee, etc.) but we can't do anything about those now because we already used up our cap. Our team is a joke right now with almost no defense, Kwame at C (with no back up) and a shitload of guards.

We essentially traded, Billups, Dice, Sheed, AA and flexibility for Gordon, Charlie V., and almost no flexibility. So far that sucks.

Why can't people understand that this team is rebuilding? I'm also not sure I understand your arguments. Are you essentially stating that dumars should have been patient in order to sign "reasonable" contracts for players like Ariza, Bass and Frye when none of them are even close to being as good as the 2 players the pistons signed? There's a reason they were able to get "reasonable" contracts...it's because they aren't that good (although I do like bass and his potential)

Are you saying they should have held out for Lamar Odom and his 30-year-old, tweener self when in all likelihood he'll be making more money next year than Villanueva?

Are you also saying we should have low-balled D. Lee in hopes of the knicks not matching while in the mean time another young, improving player that controlled his own destiny (due to him being an UFA) in CV gets signed by the cavs or another team? CV himself stated he wanted to get things over and done with quickly, would you have wanted to wait the 7 days to get screwed over?

Are you also saying this team could have done better in this free agent market when a majority of the available players with any talent were restricted and most likely will get any "reasonable" offer made by another franchise matched or dumars would have to overpay in order to get them here?

And I'm tired of hearing about how we screwed ourselves in the trade market. What dominant, young, starting-calibur big men are currently being peddled in this market to teams with cap flexibility? Do you seriously believe dumars could have swung a deal for bosh or okafor? Never was gonna happen. Damaged goods like tyson chandler or aging losers like marcus camby or zach randolph could be had but does a rebuilding team really need guys like that? Starting calibur, young bigs don't grow on trees. It's better to be patient and see what happens over the next few months, the regular season and into next off-season.

And are you truly upset that this team no longer has billups (who is an aging, shooting guard playing point guard that once again failed in the conference finals and is currently being replaced by a better, younger model in Gordon), sheed (whom no one here really liked anymore and is well past his prime), Dice (who played hard but is merely a role player on a contending team and won't be around when the pistons are championship calibur) and Afflalo who at best is a back-up shooting guard with many flaws?

Seriously? What do you think dumars should have done? And don't come back to me with trevor ariza or channing frye.

When you think of it as being a team that's rebuilding dumars has done a solid job thus far. He's eliminated dead weight from the roster (billups, sheed, dice, afflalo, amir, hermann and sharpe) and replaced them with younger talent that could be important cogs on a legit team with limited options available to him.

He's also kept the 2 vets that have the most trade value in Rip and Prince due to both of them being in their primes for future flexibility in the trade market.

Has he been perfect? Not at all. I'm sure he's kicking himself with the kwame deal last year and the maxiell extension (and maybe the rip extension) but he's been known to make up for poor decisions in the past and with shittier players (nazr, arroyo, etc) I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen again. He also probably over-estimated the amount of capspace he had and may have lost out on a decent acquisition like bass or big baby as a result but that's been his only mistake thus far, in my opinion.

And did I mention the off-season isn't over yet?

IMO, he's just stockpiling assets. I'm not sure he really knows what the team will look like when we're a contender. I think he's back in the 2003-2004 mode of simply acquiring players at a value he thinks is good. He's not worried about it that much because he feels if he has talent at a good value he can move parts around for what he needs.

We'll see.

IMO, he's just stockpiling assets. I'm not sure he really knows what the team will look like when we're a contender. I think he's back in the 2003-2004 mode of simply acquiring players at a value he thinks is good. He's not worried about it that much because he feels if he has talent at a good value he can move parts around for what he needs.

We'll see.

I completely agree. Rebuilding teams need to stockpile assets even if they play the same position as players on the current roster which is why I could not care less that rip and BG play the same position.

Not signing Ben Gordon because your roster doesn't currently have a center (and then signing a shitty big man in return) doesn't make sense. All your left with is a shitty center and you missed out on potentially the best, young free agent that was available in the market.

That's also why I wouldn't have minded them adding Bass and even Big Baby (whom I think is going to be a very solid player in this league) even though they play the same position as CV.

I'm also not concerned if the team takes a step back and loses more games next year and falls into the lottery (another asset!) as long as I see Stuckey, Gordon, CV, Bynum and other young players continue to get better.

This isn't about 2009/10.

Yargs,

We overpaid and spent almost all of our cap on the first day. We were in the drivers seat and hit a fucking telephone pole. There weren't many teams that could have offered Gordon as much as we did. We bragged about our flexibility and then eliminated it on day one. What if we got Gordon for $9 mil instead of $11? or $10 mil?

We had almost zero options after day one. I think that Ariza is a good deal for the MLE. Bass is a good deal at 4.5. If Lee signs a long term deal starting at something like 7 mil, we missed out.

Who the fuck said that we had to even use all of our cap space? Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to spend it.

There will be a lot of players available mid-season and teams are hurting due to the luxury tax. That is where we had a chance to get some real deals. That chance is now gone.

I said nothing about Billups and saying that he was "replaced" by Gordon is idiotic. Gordon is not a PG and realistically neither is Stuckey. Don't you see a problem there? I am ok with Billups getting traded but feel that we didn't get enough for him. I still see a need for a starting PG.

As for rebuilding, having capspace makes it a hell of a lot easier. Overpaying for players makes it a lot harder. You're right that the off-season isn't over yet and I hope that Joe recovers from his stuper. So far this off-season has gone from exciting to disappointing and I'm not the only one who feels this way.

yargs vs micknugget, I expect long posts in this polite showdown.

Stockpiling assets regardless of position is only helpful to the extent that the assets are perceived as being worthwhile. You might have a fine player through draft or acquisition, but if he's behind an equal or greater player, he may not be worth much to others, regardless of how good he is.

Yargs,

We overpaid and spent almost all of our cap on the first day. We were in the drivers seat and hit a fucking telephone pole. There weren't many teams that could have offered Gordon as much as we did. We bragged about our flexibility and then eliminated it on day one. What if we got Gordon for $9 mil instead of $11? or $10 mil?

We had almost zero options after day one. I think that Ariza is a good deal for the MLE. Bass is a good deal at 4.5. If Lee signs a long term deal starting at something like 7 mil, we missed out.

Who the fuck said that we had to even use all of our cap space? Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to spend it.

There will be a lot of players available mid-season and teams are hurting due to the luxury tax. That is where we had a chance to get some real deals. That chance is now gone.

I said nothing about Billups and saying that he was "replaced" by Gordon is idiotic. Gordon is not a PG and realistically neither is Stuckey. Don't you see a problem there? I am ok with Billups getting traded but feel that we didn't get enough for him. I still see a need for a starting PG.

As for rebuilding, having capspace makes it a hell of a lot easier. Overpaying for players makes it a lot harder. You're right that the off-season isn't over yet and I hope that Joe recovers from his stuper. So far this off-season has gone from exciting to disappointing and I'm not the only one who feels this way.


I have no problems with dumars spending the money he had if he spent it wisely (which can be debated) and on players with the potential to grow and get better which I feel he did. I don't think Trevor Ariza or Brandon Bass are better than the 2 players Dumars spent money on. Sure, they are cheaper but they are cheaper because they aren't as good. I happen to think Ben gordon is infinitely better than what Trevor Ariza will become and I think there's a strong chance the same can be said about CV versus Bass.

As for David Lee, you take your chances on that. If dumars knew for sure that he could be had for $7 million a year I'm sure it would have been a no-brainer for dumars to sign (even if he's flawed defensively and had inflated stats thanks to the d'antoni system). If Lee were an unrestricted free agent I think there was a strong chance dumars would have spent the money on lee instead of CV.

But you even stated above that it's an "if...." scenario and not based on something dumars could control. My guess is that IF dumars offers lee a contract for $7 million a year it gets matched by the knicks.

Again, that's completely based on conjecture where your guess is as good as mine. Dumars just preferred to put his money into a situation in which he had more control.

Sure, having capspace during the regular season in which some team might be willing to trade away a good asset to a team with space might have happened but then again it might not have and the pistons would have been stuck in a situation next off-season with a boat load of money (maybe depending on the cap) trying to coax lebron to come to detroit along with around 10 other teams.

I think dumars recognized the chances are pretty slim that getting talent next off-season in the free agent market with more competition for these resources probably wasn't the best idea.

So he chose to spend it this year instead of losing out on players like bosh, lebron and joe johnson who most likely will wind up re-signing with their own teams or going to more attractive markets like chicago, New Jersey or new york. We'd be stuck with capspace and signing guys like mike miller and t-mac.

As for billups, you were the one that said his trade was a "catastrophe" even though it wound up with the pistons replacing him in the guard rotation with Ben Gordon. I consider that an upgrade (last year the pistons began the year with billups, rip and stuckey in the rotation...this year they substitute billups with gordon).

Granted Billups and Gordon differ in terms of their playing style but then again I never really though billups was a "true" point guard in a sense that he creates shots for others. Chauncey Billups has been VERY lucky to have played alongside players like Richard Hamilton (who is very good at finding shots while not having the ball) and Carmelo Anthony (who is exceptional at finding shots for himself) thereby resulting in chauncey being what he essentially is....a very good, undersized spot-up shooting guard which just so happens to be very similar to Ben Gordon only he's not as good as BG, in my opinion.

As for how gordon and stuckey can exist together I actually see that as a positive. Stuckey struggled last year because he didn't have anyone that could help spread the floor other than rasheed. Iverson was a "need-the-ball" type of player and Rip shoots a majority of his shot at the mid-range level.

Add Gordon to the mix and you have a guy who's not only one of the best 3-point shooters in the league but also a guy that is really good at creating shots for himself. His presence and ability to spread the floor and attract defensive attention will work very well with stuckey's ability to take it to the hole.

Granted, defensively they aren't the best but then again the pistons haven't been a good defensive team since they had Ben Wallace in his prime and his ability to defend the basket.

And having Rip and 3 solid guards isn't a bad thing either if you have a coach that's not afraid to ride the guy that's hot and sit the guy that's not. When Vinnie was hitting shots Chuck D. had no problems sitting Isiah and/or Joe D.

I, for one, was done with the billups, dice, sheed, etc. era and am excited that there's some new blood and at least a focus on the future. Let's see what other moves dumars has in store and then we can decide if this off-season was good or bad.

Bass was one of the targets right? why did Joe D wait with the AA salary dump until after Bass was off the market?

Acquiring assets without regard for position is fine if there is an endgame, but where do you draw the line?

We now have 3 of our best players all ideally suited to play the same position. If someone calls Joe tonight and offers him another SG for one of our few remaining bigs, if he is slightly more talented and has a similar contract status, do you make the deal?

At some point you need roster balance, and hopefully we're heading there soon.

First things first: It's always good to see yargs on here. He's awesome.

Second: Kstat can thank his lucky stars for yargs presence because, if it was up to Kstat to defend or explain Joe's moves half the board would be out for Joe's blood.

And while yargs doesn't need to type an essay to explain stuff to me maybe Kstat could take some notice and instead of typing "have patience" or "wait until the off-season ENDS" actually put some thought into his responses and address legit concerns fans here are mentioing over and over again.

These are the issues I've had with Joe since we got Gordon and Villaneuva:

Issue 1 Why did Joe choose Gordon and Villaneuva over the likes of Millsap, Lee, Ariza, Bass and Gortat from the get go?

In other words, why did he opt for Rebuilding Phase II and not go get Millsap and hope that he would re-energize the squad along with John Que Cleveland?

Don't bring that "Restricted" stuff in here. You can front load the deal and do all kinds of freaky number stuff to almost guarantee Utah don't match so why didn't Joe do it?

Is it because higher warrior is right and the team has been passed by in today's NBA?

Or was our squad just 1 or 2 guys away from being right in the hunt?

I believe that if you felt the team was too far away to get right then Joe has done reasonably well. If you believe that Rip, Tay and the boys just needed some more help and a real coach then I'm guessing you are going out of your mind right now.

Which is why I wanted to debate why Joe chose the direction he did since July 1st. But I've lost all touch with reality, right Kstat?

Issue 2 Once Joe chose his direction why did we pony up so much cash for Ben Gordon?

I'm fine with the Charlie signing, his contract and all. It's pretty hard to get guys with his skill set that aren't on big time money. Time will tell if Powder was worth the money but for right now I'm happy with it.

But giving Gordon so much money essentially took us out of free agency and made trading more difficult. I don't see why Gordon was offered so much money when it was fairly obvious Chicago were not sold on him and no other team was gonna jump in and offer him the kind of money we could.

If his starting salary was $1 or 2 million less we could have brought Dice back for 1 year to help up front and mentor the young guys. We might have had a shot at Bass instead of Dice.

Things could have been different if Joe had been more cap savvy and more patient. I didn't expect him to wait a month but waiting an extra 24 or 48 hours wouldn't have killed us IMO.

Sharpe just got traded with Sonny Weems to the Bucks 4 Malik Allen

Hammond is collecting Piston castoffs

he is in high demand!

Pharaoh, I'm pickin' up watcha layin' down.
As for the Gordon thing... It's a big time dissapointment if we don't move Rip... No way you push out 1/3 of your cap at SG when this is the easiest position to find talent....
However if Rip is moved (good luck wit dat) then Gordon's salary compared to Rips is reasonable (considering age)....
quick question... how many teams will see Gordon as a target to attack?... it may come down to which team flinches first to adjust for Gordon offense or lack his of D.

While he was sleeping, Sharpe got traded yet again!
He's rejoining Amir in Bucksville.

Just read a rumor that Sharpe has a torn ACL and won't play this year anyways.

Good move for Denver. Malik is nothing special, but they needed a guy to replace Petro on their bench in case a big gets in foul trouble. He's an expiring deal so they don't have to sign a guy and add long term salary.

Just read a rumor that Sharpe has a torn ACL and won't play this year anyways.

Did he fall out of bed?

Yes!

I still think he's going to be a player, so don't sleep on him.

That was uncalled for, he's got a problem.

"family issues" I believe.

Here's Walter Sharpe's reaction to finding out that the Bucks waived him this morning.

http://s3.images.com/huge.86.432205.JPG

I think AA is going to start for the Nuggs. I've been reading that JR will start on the bench at first.

They just don't want that kid to start.

JR Smiff is ridiculous to watch sometimes.

"Not my cup of tea"

5 years, $43 million+ from Nuggets


LOL

Nice. I don't think Afflalo is worth quite that much, but I'm happy for him.

you know what?

Him and Stuckey have close enough contracts that they could be straight up traded for each other now.
Am I the only one who would do it ASAP?

If you lived in Denver you would be.

Who was pissed AA got traded for nothing but cap space (that we used on Wilcox)?

ME!

Fuck!

The whole thread is depressing... but to find out my boy got paid big money is nice. Well deserved for a guy that works hard and plays with some fucking heart. Pity we don't have lots of guys like him on our roster...

maybe cause we trade them away for nothing

Honestly I don't think starting center is really a consideration for dumars right now unless one that he considers solid enough to be around in 2-3 years falls into his lap (and I don't think one currently exists in this market). It's about thinking long-term and collecting valuable assets.

Therefore you use your current roster and space to pick up assets that will either be around when the team is ready to compete or that can be used to trade for pieces later on. That's why dumars will pounce on big baby if he can be had with this cap space.

That's why I like the pistons off-season thus far. Gordon and CV are young and improving with the potential to be really good in a few years. If they add another young, improving player with this newly created space after the afflalo trade then that's a positive as well regardless of position.

They also said good-bye to guys that either won't even be in the league when the pistons are ready to compete (dyess, sheed, hermann, iverson) or any good (afflalo, amir, sharpe). For a team that's looking to the future that's a very positive thing. Being able to cut off that much dead weight is a positive thing and hard to do in professional sports.

Every decision dumars currently makes is based on how this impacts the team 2-3 years from now.

If they can continue to pick up young, improving assets regardless of their position then that's a positive move for the future. When more contracts clear (brown, etc.) or if a big that can rebound and block shots becomes available next year via the mid-level or if a team makes an offer for prince or rip that dumars can't refuse or if you can package some of your new-found assets for something better....

You get the point, it's about having options and not thinking you HAVE to compete right now even if that means you finish in the lottery next season (because that again gives you a valuable asset).

Just re-read the thread. I think we should re-name it "Shattered Dreams" (or maybe just "Shat").

yargs is a great poster, but wow. Not to single him out, there are many similar "highlights" in this thread.

Yargs is a smart dude and I love reading his posts... and in his defense he was looking at the glass half-full

BG and Nova were young and had some potential to show and prove.

They just didn't show and prove.

We also didn't flip Rip into Millsap or Boozer or any other big - which would have made a world of difference.

Imagine Kaman with Nova, Tay, BG and Stuckey

Imagine Millsap with Nova, Tay, BG and Stuckey

Imagine if Stuckey actually fucking developed!

2-3 years wasted....

I wonder how long Gores has given Joe to turn things around?

Just re-read the thread. I think we should re-name it "Shattered Dreams" (or maybe just "Shat").

yargs is a great poster, but wow. Not to single him out, there are many similar "highlights" in this thread.

I agree, that was one of my better efforts. Can I save grace by stating at one point following the 2007 draft that Afflalo would turn out to be the better player in comparison to stuckey since he just led a solid conference in scoring (pac 10), led his team to the title game and appeared to be a guy that puts forth the effort to get better (while stuckey just led his team to a .500 record and seemed like a guy without a jump shot or exeptional athletic ability...I hated the rodney stuckey pick)?

Ok, probably not. But I've always valued guys that win and seem to elevate their game when the games matter most. It's why I liked Big Baby that off-season since he just came off of a stellar playoffs where he elevated his game and averaged 16 a night in 14 playoff games (he averaged 18 and 7 against the bulls in round 2). I still contend that if dumars hadn't misread how much it would have cost to get Big Baby (he essentially released afflalo because he thought he'd cleared enough money to spend on baby but was wrong) he would have been a piston and done well for a team that needed a guy that could score in the paint.

Having said that, the afflalo contract is very bad. He really isn't anything more than a spot-up shooter. A really, really good one, but he is severly limited in his ability to create shots for himself and others. He averaged less than 13 pts a game last year in over 33 minutes which isn't very good. He's going to have to severly step up his game to be worth what he's being paid.

As for BG and CV, I think gordon is a waste and needs to go and will go. Under-sized shooting guards that can't defend the 2 or even shoot consistently anymore are a waste of time. I hate him and hope he proves me wrong.

As for CV, I think if he's limited to being an instant offensive big off the bench (similar to how the pistons used corliss) he could still impact this team positively. When he is on he can score pts in a hurry and change a game. The problem is he hasn't done that often but then again he hasn't really been used in this way either. Identify a role for him and stick with it.

Yep. Trading Afflalo for nothing pissed me off more than any other move Joe has made. He was a great complement to Stuckey should he remain at PG and would have been a nice change of pace from Ben Gordon. hell, three guard lineups would have been easier to pull off with him around.

I'm still a little disappointed that the new ownership clean slate didn't extend to the front office.

I don't think AA got paid that kind of money because he produced 13 points in 33 minutes.

I think he got that money for what he brings to that team that you can't measure on a boxscore.

Work ethic, professionalism, attitude, etc