Just because it was brought up that we should have gone with Bosh instead of Darko:

You have to look past the entitlement thing Darko had going on. He was just barely 18 and still maturing when we drafted him and everyone was telling him how he was going to be a star. If he had been drafted by any other team, he’d have been playing 25 a night. We turned him into a human victory cigar killed his confidence:

How do you think it would have turned out if we'd given him at least 5-10 mpg as a rookie then given him Memo's role the next year? His biggest problem was the attitude he developed, which wouldn't have been as big of an issue if he'd been getting more than mop-up duty in blowouts.

03-04
Don't you think that 5-10 minutes in a real game situation along with a real big-man coach as a rookie would have given him some seasoning/experience and built his confidence more than 2 useless minutes with scrubs in a blowout? It would have cost us what, 4-5 games in the standings at most? We won 54 games for the #3 seed that year and the 4th seed won 42. It wouldn't have affected our playoff seed in the slightest.

04-05
He'd have developed more as a rookie and he'd be ready for a bigger role in his sophomore season. He wouldn’t be some dominant player or ready to star, obviously. He'd make mistakes but he'd be learning/developing and he'd provide some rest for our bigs. We had McDyess getting 22mpg, Sheed at 33 and Ben at 37, plus Elden at 10. We could easily give him 15 a game without even touching McDyess’s minutes and we’d keep Ben and Sheed a bit more fresh for the playoffs. We'd drop 3-4 games or so, but we had 54 and the next best team had 47. We'd still be the #2 seed and we'd have more frontcourt depth in the playoffs.

Everything changes from this point on.

05-06
We don't have to spend the '05 offseason on Dale Davis, instead using that money on a real backup SF. Davis and Mo Evans turns into an MLE SF and Tay isn't playing 37mpg in 05-06. You don’t have Ben and Sheed logging 36 and 35 mpg respectively. That’s quite a difference when you can keep 3 borderline all-stars from being burned out down the stretch.

06-07
When Ben leaves after the ‘06 season, Darko steps into the starting spot. We don't spend the MLE on Nazr or go after Chris Webber, instead fortifying our bench in the offseason. Our main bench was an aging Hunter, the beloved Flip Murray, Carlos Delfino (post-knee injury), McDyess and Dale Davis. We couldn’t improve that if we still had the MLE available? We could still get Murray with the LLE, so we’d essentially have a bigtime bench upgrade at PG (MLE) and SF (‘05 MLE), with McDyess being our #1 big off the bench and SG duties being a battle between Murray and Delfino (where he belonged). Chauncey played 37mpg because he didn’t have a real backup. Tay played almost 38. And we had a visibly aged Webber playing 30. They all wore out in the playoffs.

07-08
We all know the catastrophe that was this season. Dyess was forced back into a starting role. Nazr was moved from Brezec and Herrmann. Flip Murray was our backup PG and we brought in Juan Dixon and Jarvis Hayes. We got ourselves some Theo Ratliff time. Catastrophe. The fact that we made it as far as we did is amazing to me. With a developed Darko, McDyess stays on the bench. Nazr isn’t even here to be traded. We already have a decent backup PG and SF. We never have to consider guys like Dixon and Hayes and the idea of Ratliff is just for a big body at most. The only downside is that we don’t draft Stuckey, but we wouldn’t need him.


Darko could have been a poor man’s KG, with a little more range. He had range to the 3pt line. He had some nice face-up post moves that never got developed. He could handle the ball. He blocked shots. He was extremely athletic for his size, with people talking about him potentially being a 4 that could play some 3 (like a taller AK47) if we developed him that way. Our staff botched his development as much as he did. Yes he felt entitled, but he’d just turned 18 years old. Look at Andrew Bynum in LA. Same age as a rookie. He got minutes as and they hired Kareem to coach him. If you give Darko some minutes and pay an ex-star big man to tutor him, that becomes a completely different situation. Hell, they could have had Lambs or Mahorn knocking him around in practice and it would have been better than how the situation was actually handled.

I'm obviously not saying he'd have been as good as KG, just the same style of play. A little more range, a little less overall talent and intensity.

What if is a fun game when you’re killing time.

I saw him in one of his first preseason games at Van Andel vs. Bosh and the Raptors. He was destroyed up and down the court. His problem wasn't entitlement. It was a genuine lack of talent.

That's part of him only being 18. Give him some playing time and a position coach and that changes.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have drafted Bosh/Wade/Anthony instead of him, just what if we actually developed him. Plugging any of those 3 into our roster would be another fun one. I may do that tomorrow.

I think we developed him. I think that's how good he really was ever bound to be.

We'll see if Darko can even produce decent numbers in Mike D'Antoni's system

If Darko could had some serious potential that wasn't developed, there's a strong chance that he's too screwed up at this point to reach it. That tends to happen to players that aren't properly developed, they usually don't make the jump later on (Chauncey being a nice exception for us).

We'll see if Darko can even produce decent numbers in Mike D'Antoni's system

I would bet he'll be a nice source of blocks & rebounds in a roto league next year---but I digress.

Just because it was brought up that we should have gone with Bosh instead of Darko:

You have to look past the entitlement thing Darko had going on. He was just barely 18 and still maturing when we drafted him and everyone was telling him how he was going to be a star. If he had been drafted by any other team, he’d have been playing 25 a night. We turned him into a human victory cigar killed his confidence:

How do you think it would have turned out if we'd given him at least 5-10 mpg as a rookie then given him Memo's role the next year? His biggest problem was the attitude he developed, which wouldn't have been as big of an issue if he'd been getting more than mop-up duty in blowouts.

03-04
Don't you think that 5-10 minutes in a real game situation along with a real big-man coach as a rookie would have given him some seasoning/experience and built his confidence more than 2 useless minutes with scrubs in a blowout? It would have cost us what, 4-5 games in the standings at most? We won 54 games for the #3 seed that year and the 4th seed won 42. It wouldn't have affected our playoff seed in the slightest.

04-05
He'd have developed more as a rookie and he'd be ready for a bigger role in his sophomore season. He wouldn’t be some dominant player or ready to star, obviously. He'd make mistakes but he'd be learning/developing and he'd provide some rest for our bigs. We had McDyess getting 22mpg, Sheed at 33 and Ben at 37, plus Elden at 10. We could easily give him 15 a game without even touching McDyess’s minutes and we’d keep Ben and Sheed a bit more fresh for the playoffs. We'd drop 3-4 games or so, but we had 54 and the next best team had 47. We'd still be the #2 seed and we'd have more frontcourt depth in the playoffs.

Everything changes from this point on.

05-06
We don't have to spend the '05 offseason on Dale Davis, instead using that money on a real backup SF. Davis and Mo Evans turns into an MLE SF and Tay isn't playing 37mpg in 05-06. You don’t have Ben and Sheed logging 36 and 35 mpg respectively. That’s quite a difference when you can keep 3 borderline all-stars from being burned out down the stretch.

06-07
When Ben leaves after the ‘06 season, Darko steps into the starting spot. We don't spend the MLE on Nazr or go after Chris Webber, instead fortifying our bench in the offseason. Our main bench was an aging Hunter, the beloved Flip Murray, Carlos Delfino (post-knee injury), McDyess and Dale Davis. We couldn’t improve that if we still had the MLE available? We could still get Murray with the LLE, so we’d essentially have a bigtime bench upgrade at PG (MLE) and SF (‘05 MLE), with McDyess being our #1 big off the bench and SG duties being a battle between Murray and Delfino (where he belonged). Chauncey played 37mpg because he didn’t have a real backup. Tay played almost 38. And we had a visibly aged Webber playing 30. They all wore out in the playoffs.

07-08
We all know the catastrophe that was this season. Dyess was forced back into a starting role. Nazr was moved from Brezec and Herrmann. Flip Murray was our backup PG and we brought in Juan Dixon and Jarvis Hayes. We got ourselves some Theo Ratliff time. Catastrophe. The fact that we made it as far as we did is amazing to me. With a developed Darko, McDyess stays on the bench. Nazr isn’t even here to be traded. We already have a decent backup PG and SF. We never have to consider guys like Dixon and Hayes and the idea of Ratliff is just for a big body at most. The only downside is that we don’t draft Stuckey, but we wouldn’t need him.


Darko could have been a poor man’s KG, with a little more range. He had range to the 3pt line. He had some nice face-up post moves that never got developed. He could handle the ball. He blocked shots. He was extremely athletic for his size, with people talking about him potentially being a 4 that could play some 3 (like a taller AK47) if we developed him that way. Our staff botched his development as much as he did. Yes he felt entitled, but he’d just turned 18 years old. Look at Andrew Bynum in LA. Same age as a rookie. He got minutes as and they hired Kareem to coach him. If you give Darko some minutes and pay an ex-star big man to tutor him, that becomes a completely different situation. Hell, they could have had Lambs or Mahorn knocking him around in practice and it would have been better than how the situation was actually handled.

I'm obviously not saying he'd have been as good as KG, just the same style of play. A little more range, a little less overall talent and intensity.

What if is a fun game when you’re killing time.
Zek, why did none of these things happen? I'm curious to know your answer.

The big woulda coulda shoulda is Rick Fox breaking his finger when we won the Finals, thus totally fucking up his summer development.

Just because it was brought up that we should have gone with Bosh instead of Darko:

You have to look past the entitlement thing Darko had going on. He was just barely 18 and still maturing when we drafted him and everyone was telling him how he was going to be a star. If he had been drafted by any other team, he’d have been playing 25 a night. We turned him into a human victory cigar killed his confidence.

No, I don't have to look past the "entitlement" thing.

He arrived with it and you claim it was because everyone was telling him how he was going to be a star.

I call bullshit on that.

I claim he wasn't mentally prepared to leave Europe, come to the NBA and work his ass off for his position or his contract or his future.

His skills set is not an issue for me. The guy had certain skills that could have been developed - if he cared enough to develop them.

The fact that he did nothing for us while we had Sheed, Ben, Memo, Elden Campbell and Antonio McDyess (I think Dale Davis was here for a spell too while Darko was here) around him at various stages proves to me that the guy just wasn't up to it from the get go.

And our organisation should have noticed that GIANT flaw in his character.

The excuse everyone uses is "Everyone thought he was gonna be a star". And? So? Just because a million people wanna invest their hard earned in some crappy company doesn't mean I let those people effect my judgement.

I do my own research, I check stuff out. Apparently our scouts did that.

And just before the Draft they must have had doubts, because they brought Bosh back for one last workout.

And yet they still chose Darko!

Someone in the organisation had doubts. Someone thought Bosh was gonna be awesome. Someone had a "gut" feeling.

And yet they made the "popular" choice - and got it wrong!

Stupid! Foolish! And impossible to overlook.

That one pick robs us of a Franchise player, someone we'd happily trade Prince and Rip for today if Toronto was dumb enough to allow it.


How do you think it would have turned out if we'd given him at least 5-10 mpg as a rookie then given him Memo's role the next year? His biggest problem was the attitude he developed, which wouldn't have been as big of an issue if he'd been getting more than mop-up duty in blowouts.

I think if he was given/handed that role it would have only made his "entitlement" thing worse. He arrived under the impression that he was safe, his spot was secure and his future was set.

By giving him a role you just back up his idea.

It doesn't matter which way you cut it:

He arrived with a poor attitude, a poor work ethic and a belief that he was safe. With all the money and tests organisations put the draftees through someone should have seen it coming.

And I believe they did see it coming - they just made the popular choice and worked their butts off trying to change the inevitable.

Once all possible ideas to "fix" Darko had been tried and failed they cut him loose.

And our organisation should have noticed that GIANT flaw in his character.



Can you explain, in detail, how?

Again, reminder, I'm just having fun with this. I'm not saying he'd have been a star and it's all our fault he's not.


Zek, why did none of these things happen? I'm curious to know your answer.
Larry Brown would be a part of that. He's notorious for hating rookies. There were quite a few reports at the time that he didn't give Darko the time of day, had no interest in developing him, etc.
Also, because we aren't very good at developing our own talent. Plain and simple, we talked about that a month or so ago. P brought it up, I believe and everyone seemed to agree.


The big woulda coulda shoulda is Rick Fox breaking his finger when we won the Finals, thus totally fucking up his summer development.
I actually disagree with this. You mean to tell me that you can't develop your game at all because you have a broken finger? Didn't Kobe play with a broken finger for 2 months a couple seasons ago? Heck, you're trying to work on your post game. Develop the other hand while it heals. Work on catching entry passes with one hand. Do conditioning drills. A broken finger is not an excuse.


I claim he wasn't mentally prepared to leave Europe, come to the NBA and work his ass off for his position or his contract or his future.
So leave him in Europe for an extra year while he matures. If we saw his maturity being as big of an issue as it was, that's an easy yet probably unpopular solution.

And just before the Draft they must have had doubts, because they brought Bosh back for one last workout.
Bosh came in for workouts with us KNOWING we weren't drafting him. They were on his insistence. That was supposed to be a big showing of his character (after the fact of course, no one mentioned it until 2-3 years later).

By giving him a role you just back up his idea.
I don't think 5 minutes a game solidifies his entitlement. It gives him enough of a taste to motivate and develop him without being a true role to feel "set" and "secure". Teams do this all the time in order to develop young talent. That's why I never understood why we didn't, other than Larry Brown not liking to play and develop young players.

And just before the Draft they must have had doubts, because they brought Bosh back for one last workout.

And yet they still chose Darko!

Someone in the organisation had doubts. Someone thought Bosh was gonna be awesome. Someone had a "gut" feeling.

And yet they made the "popular" choice - and got it wrong!
The way I'd read it in the paper, Bosh _wanted_ to come to the Pistons and prove himself, even after it was 100% clear we were drafting Darko. That's what sold me on Bosh way back when. I didn't get the impression that :we: expected Bosh to do that, that we initiated that contact with Bosh.

Can you explain, in detail, how?
Agreed. You meet a kid a handful of times, watch him on the basketball court, have a few talks with him, and you're supposed to know his full mental makeup? How easily we forget that Darko was the jewel of that draft behind LBJ. Hell, there were even rumblings at the time that Cleveland was giving a big look to Darko. It was almost certain that they were taking James, but they did their due diligence on Darko before making the final decision.

And that's not just something I remember. I found some articles and quotes that reminded me of that when I was looking things up for this thread. Seems ridiculous now, but a 7 footer with the athleticism to play the 3, the size to play the 5, and the complete skillset was pretty rare. No one knew he had the mental makeup of Stromile Swift and Tim Thomas. He looked like a foreign Kevin Garnett.

But you know what, Joe Dumars and the Detroit Piston scouting department is supposed to be omnipotent with a full judge of a 17 year old (that's how old he was while we were scouting him) and the type of character he would have.

Can you explain, in detail, how?

Don't they have a shrink deal with these kids prior to the Draft?

Don't they talk to almost every single person the kid ever knew?

Don't they get the kids to take all kinds of weird and wondeful psyche tests?

They do insane amounts of research on these guys.

And IF they don't get these kids to take all kinds of freaky, weird CIA type tests then maybe they should.

I'd love to know every single aspect of what we do as an organisation in regards to scouting.

And then I'd love to compare our "style" to a team like the Spurs, or Portland or Dallas.

I'd find it interesting to put it mildly.

Z - I know it seems like I expect the scouts to get EVERY pick right but I don't.

I just don't expect them to get damn near all of them wrong.

As for not knowing Darko was a mental midget read the post I directed at Hermy.

Re: Bosh coming in for workouts: You guys either have much better memories or you searched for articles.

But I still seem to recall him being rushed in the day before the Draft for 1 last workout? Or was that one of his workouts he scheduled because he was so sure of his talent he thought he could change Joe's mind?

That right there should have been enough for Joe. You've got this kid (Bosh)with all these skills and you told him you're not gonna draft him and he says "That's cool - I still wanna show you what I have to offer".

Draft that guy! And the fact that Bosh played NCAA and Darko didn't play much anywhere should have meant something.

And BTW Z: I don't think anything could have saved Darko. Wrong player, wrong team, wrong coach, wrong time.

He'll be remembered as Sam Bowie II. Except Melo ain't no Jordan.

I actually disagree with this. You mean to tell me that you can't develop your game at all because you have a broken finger? Didn't Kobe play with a broken finger for 2 months a couple seasons ago? Heck, you're trying to work on your post game. Develop the other hand while it heals. Work on catching entry passes with one hand. Do conditioning drills. A broken finger is not an excuse.
IIRC, he was supposed to go back to play on the home team for the summer, but he didn't, so he just pissed around like a prick with a lot of money at a young age. LB wasn't in the picture, with the Olympics and other issues. It seemed like he was left kinda free floating when the plans for him to be on his country team fell apart with his injury, and nothing good ever came of it.

I'm not calling it an "excuse". I'm just saying that things might have taken a very different turn if not for that -- a "what if". :)

The only What if I like when it comes to Darko is:

What if we draft Bosh!

We'd still trade for Sheed cause LB would not have been happy with Memo and Bosh and Ben Wallace up front.

So we'd still win the title.

IIRC, he was supposed to go back to play on the home team for the summer, but he didn't, so he just pissed around like a prick with a lot of money at a young age. LB wasn't in the picture, with the Olympics and other issues. It seemed like he was left kinda free floating when the plans for him to be on his country team fell apart with his injury, and nothing good ever came of it.

I'm not calling it an "excuse". I'm just saying that things might have taken a very different turn if not for that -- a "what if". :)
I forgot all about that. Good call!