I don't have time for the link, but Sam is at Bulls.com these days.

Post the link you lazy prick (and alos cause the last time I posted one it got all kinds of fucked up)

ehhhhhhhh boy

Bulls Look at Guards Who May be in Their Future

It may have been a bad day at the Berto Center Tuesday for Ben Gordon.

No, Gordon wasn’t there. But his replacement may have been.

The Bulls took a look at a half dozen guards, primarily point guards, three of whom figure to be selected in the first round and who all make some sense for the Bulls as an inexpensive replacement for unrestricted free agent Gordon.

I should say I’m a Gordon guy. I know all his flaws. I view this along the lines of my wife getting to know me and then still marrying me. But I also have seen what Gordon can do, his unique scoring ability and big shot making. Yet, I can understand why the Bulls now would begin to look away from Gordon.

I haven’t heard they are, and General Manager Gar Forman has not come off his stance that he wants to bring Gordon back. But I also heard that Gordon’s agent allegedly has been saying he has an $11 million promise from the Pistons. This could go with the promise I received to play giving me a chance to win the lottery. I’ve never fully understood the supposed Pistons interest. Not because teams don’t like Gordon. But because the Pistons have Rodney Stuckey, not a true point guard, and Richard Hamilton. Though the rumors supposedly are the Pistons would trade Hamilton. Though why trade a 6-7 shooting guard to accommodate one maybe a half foot shorter? Though I never say never in the NBA, as Phil Jackson taught me. And Michael.

Anyway, back to the Bulls.

I can see them thinking this way, even if they may not be. Gordon’s a free agent and could leave without a right to match. You have to protect yourself. You are trying to create as much flexibility for the 2010 free agent class or if some team, say Toronto, wants to offload a star. If you were to lose Kirk Hinrich you have no one to back up point guard. And, ideally, you might like to have a bigger, defensive minded backcourt with John Salmons at shooting guard and Luol Deng back at small forward. So maybe the best way to go is to add a guard who comes relatively cheaply. After all, Gordon is going to demand, what, at least $8 million annually, you’d assume, after rejecting $10 million and $9 million the previous two years. Likely more than $8 million.

You may lose him no matter what you offer. So maybe you figure you make up the offense with Salmons and Deng in regular spots and improved defense so you don’t need as much offense.

So Tuesday, the Bulls took a look at Eric Maynor from Virginia Commonwealth, Jeff Teague from Wake Forest, Nick Calathes from Florida, Tasheed Carr from St. Joseph’s, David Holston from Chicago State and Bryan Mullins from Southern Illinois via Downers Grove High School.

A word first about Carr, whom I really don’t know much about. He was a transfer from Iowa State and a convert to point guard. The workouts are closed to media. Once over, we are allowed in to interview the players. Everyone is nice. I understand. They are on job interviews. So you walk up to a player and ask a few questions. Carr came over as I went to talk to Teague to thank me for coming. I noticed he did that with others. Nice touch. Can’t say I saw that one before, though Calathes kept calling me “Sir.” I assumed he was being polite and afraid I was going to ask for a cane or walker at any time.

I spent most of my time talking with Maynor, Teague and Calathes. All are expected to be first round picks, and the word around is Teague has been impressing teams. All are in the mix for being available when the Bulls select No. 16 while Calathes could slip to No. 26 because he is playing in Greece next season.

I think he’d be a near no brainer at No. 26.

Calathes is a legitimate 6-5 point guard. Not a great athlete or explosive, but a smart player who teams have said would be perfect with the classic NBA pick and roll sets. Some have likened him to a bigger version of Kirk Hinrich, though perhaps more the point guard mentality.

He played for the Greek national team last year as he has a Greek passport because his family is from Greece. It’s an interesting decision because Calathes, 20, said playing professionally in Greece will give him a chance to make money and play against tough competition to get stronger while giving the NBA team that drafts him the chance to avoid putting him on their salary cap until the 2010 free agency class or even after as he could stay overseas two years if the team prefers. Smart kid.

“For my situation,” he said, “it helps me get better and to help me achieve my dream of playing in the NBA. And it can help a team that doesn’t want to use the first round money now.”

That sounds like it could be a team like the Bulls, who could spend the No. 26 pick on an intriguing future backup guard who can play both positions while not crowding their salary cap with two first round guarantees. Calathes has worked out for an eclectic mix of teams with low first round and high second round picks.

The night of the draft lottery I wrote a mock draft piece for the Bulls magazine—BasketBull—that goes mostly to season ticket holders. I analyzed the draft to that point and I had Maynor as the Bulls pick at No. 16.

I still think it’s possible after hearing about his workout, though I have a feeling Teague could sneak ahead if he is available. Maynor said the two, both considered mid first round picks, have been at almost every workout together and gone against one another.

Teague is smaller but quicker, sort of the Jason Terry to Maynor’s Brandon Roy. Neither figure to be quite that good, though the styles are different. Maynor is bigger and more experienced, a four year player who is more of a tempo kind of guard with a change of pace game.

Many probably remember him from his game winner to knock Duke out of the NCAA’s in the first round two years ago. He’s made a bunch of big shots and is a decent, if not great, shooter. He’s worked out for some lottery teams, like the Nets and Bucks, but also the 76ers, Timberwolves and Hornets, the latter three picking after the Bulls.

“I think this is going to be a record setting draft for point guards selected (in the first round),” Maynor said. “I’m right there with the best of them.”

Teague is a jet, about 6-1 but with great leaping and long distance shooting ability. He draws comparisons to those waterbug guards like the 76ers Lewis Williams and the Rockets Aaron Brooks, the latter who tormented the Lakers. But he also shot 44 percent on threes last season, showing some comparisons to Gordon, if not likely the pure shooting ability.

“I can score the ball at that point guard,” said Teague. “I bring another gear with my speed to get up and down the floor and I can pressure the ball. I take pride in my defense.”

I asked Teague about the other small, quick guards in this draft like Jonny Flynn and Brandon Jennings with Flynn having worked out for the Bulls. “I feel I’m as good as any of those guys,” he said. “I think I’m better than them. I’m confident.”

It could be an interesting dilemma for the Bulls if someone like Teague or Maynor is available at No. 16, and there’s all this uncertainty about Gordon.

http://blogs.bulls.com/chicago_bulls_blog/2009/06/bulls-look-at-guards-who-may-be-in-their-future.html

oh god please no

oh god please no

we better get a really good bigman for RIP if we blow our capspace (=Chauncey, AI, Sheed, Dice) on an undersized SG

$8 Million for Gordon? That's about right IMO.

Rip is on the decline. His style of play is dated. He's doesn't shoot a lot of 3 pointers and he's not a ball handler.

I'm not saying Rip sucks - far from it. It's just his game doesn't appear to mesh with the stuff Joe spoke about. Gordon is that kind of player that Joe wanted.

Joe: What about a 6'2" PG? Does that make you feel better? Cause if we got Gordon he'd defend the opposing PG.

Besides...

Look at Cleveland's backcourt. Under-sized?

Look at Orlando's backcourt. Under-sized?

Look at Boston's backcourt. Under-sized?

Joe: What about a 6'2" PG? Does that make you feel better? Cause if we got Gordon he'd defend the opposing PG.

Besides...

Look at Cleveland's backcourt. Under-sized?

Look at Orlando's backcourt. Under-sized?

Look at Boston's backcourt. Under-sized?

I agree, Stuckey's size makes this possible.

A Stuckey + Gordon backcourt = zero playmaking.

ZERO.

Maybe it's $11 Million over 3 years...


please...

http://www.loonwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/nuclear_holocaust.jpg

No one lies more than Smith. People give Vescey a hard time, but he breaks more stuff than the rest of the old media folks combined. Smith on the other hand just makes shit up, or lets agents use him for purposes.

This is bullshit.

Rip is on the decline.
Rip puts up some career average numbers despite nagging njury and missing an All-Star PG. What is this "decline" you speak of??

Saying he's not what we want for the future is one thing. Saying that his game has gone south is another.

I'm assuming this "promise" was something along the lines of Detroit saying they would make a strong push for Gordon combined with the fact that Gordon wants $11mill per season.

Or at least I hope so.

i hate the fact that people are basing the future around rodeny stuckey. The guy is not smart enough to be a team leader/run the team, he can not even put a sentence together in interviews. The guy is so over-hyped it is freaking ridiculous.

I think that's the first time I've ever heard someone criticize Stuckey's speech.

No one lies more than Smith. People give Vescey a hard time, but he breaks more stuff than the rest of the old media folks combined. Smith on the other hand just makes shit up, or lets agents use him for purposes.

This is bullshit.

I agree that Smith can be shaky, which is why I used his name in the thread title as the source.

Vecsey >>>>> Smith

It's too bad that we have to reply on non-local media for Pistons news.

you look at most NBA stars that lead their teams to championships and they seem poised in interviews. You can just tell that chauncey knows what's going on by the way he handles himself on and off the court. I know Stuckey had to go to E washington because his grades were garbage. I just dont feel comfortable with stuckey as the starting point. I think he is a backup SG.

I agree that Smith can be shaky, which is why I used his name in the thread title as the source.

Vecsey >>>>> Smith

It's too bad that we have to reply on non-local media for Pistons news.


I have a hard time calling this news. My guess is Keith will shoot it down by Friday.

No one lies more than Smith. People give Vescey a hard time, but he breaks more stuff than the rest of the old media folks combined. Smith on the other hand just makes shit up, or lets agents use him for purposes.

This is bullshit.
This is all that needs to be said about another one of Smith's BS rumors.

Stuckey's grades being garbage has zilch to do with his basketball IQ. He also had excellent grades at EWU.

Frankly if Joe has a nice deal lined up for Rip, I have no issue with Gordon getting 5 years and $55 mil. It would only start out at what, 8.5 mil this season? Joe would have plenty left to throw at a big man.

Ben Gordon is the best go-to scorer in the NBA among non-superstars. If Joe doesn't think he can find a superstar to take over late Gordon is the next best thing.

As for Gordon being 6'2," that is way overblown. Joe D. was 6'3" and had less muscle to him.

He would also mesh with stuckey much, much better than rip.

But Joe could guard 6'6" guys with no problem. No one 2 guard gets posted more than Ben besides AI.

Kstat is definitely on the money here. It this rumor is true, we should be happy. We're getting a guy who can score inside and out, take over down the stretch, and guard opponents' PG. I'd rather have him than Rip's one-dimensional mid-range game and corner three ball. Plus, Rip was a cry baby all season once Chauncey left; he paved his way out of here all season.

Also, this probably means that Rip will be used as trade bait for a big. Conceivably, we could endup with three new impact guys to pair with Stuckey and Tay. That would be a hugely successful offseason, IMO.

Gus, I just won't see the Stuckey bashing. What did you expect in his first season as a full-time starter? His numbers were good, despite running a nearly non-existent offense that lacked a legitimate post player (other than Dice, if he counts). Also, opposing teams are probably shuddering at the thought of having to contain a Stuckey-Gordon backcourt, with Byum coming of the bench. You're looking at three of the league's quickest guards on one team.

My one complaint about Stuckey is his inconsistent jumper. I guarantee he will come into training camp having improved this, and then the sky is the limit to what he can do on the court. If defenses have to honor his shot more, he'll return to getting to the basket at will.

LOL @ calling rip "one dimentional" in a discussion about Gordon.

LOL @ calling rip "one dimentional" in a discussion about Gordon.

LOL @ your obvious lack of understanding. Gordon can shoot and drive, inside and out. What can Rip do again?

Defend.

I agree with Herm.

Nothing personal, Herm, but I just don't think it's fair to say that BG does fewer quality things than Rip does.

Rip: Good mid-range shooter; decent three point shooter, but not a high-volume guy; terrible handles, and can't break his man down.

Gordon: Decent mid-range shooter; good three point shooter, especially off the dribble; very strong ball handler (even Celtic defenders couldn't check him).

Both are good players, no doubt, but I think Gordon has more "attack modes" than Rip. Maybe this is just my opinion, I'm willing to bet others agree.

According to 82 games, Gordon shoots 85 percent of his shots as jumpers, Rip shoots 84.

I'll agree Gordon is better off the dribble with pullups, but his asst/TO ratio is worse than Rips, so I'm not sure what else besides pullups handles are good for other than getting to the hole or passing to a team mate, neither of which he does.

I agree with Herm.

This is often a good way to set yourself up for a compliment later.


Good job with that take Fool. You are smart.

I'm never too proud to compliment myself.

Gordon is more clutch down the stretch, but Rip will get you 20 per night. Gordon will get you 12 one night then 35 the next.

in a push, i'll take the guy that's more likely to ht the game-winning shot, something we obviously never had last year.

Defend.


Very poorly.

Very poorly.

Rip? Wrong.

in a push, i'll take the guy that's more likely to ht the game-winning shot, something we obviously never had last year.

It's not a push.

Very poorly.

Right, because Rip is clearly a better ball handler and three point shooter than Gordon is. I'm so wrong.

It's not a push, but if we can get a game-changing SG, especially one who is younger than current malcontent cry baby, at a reasonable price, you pull the trigger.

Two of our main weaknesses this season were three point shooting and lack of a closer. Gordon addresses two of these, and he makes Rip expendable to acquire a big. I don't see the fuss about Gordon.

Some of you guys would probably find things to complain about if we were somehow able to land Kobe or Wade, too.

poll

Let's keep in mind that most of our "plans" involve acquiring two impact big man, through free agency and/or trades. If you're going to use the main assets you have, i.e. Rip and Tay, then you have to get a replacement. Gordon is the best replacement available for Rip.

someone mentioned this before, but i think this makes rip trade value decrease alot.

Why is everyone's pussy so hurt that Rip wasn't happy he got demoted to the bench and had to play with a *rookie* pg? He wanted to win a title last year. The team believed if Cbill hadn't been hurt they would have won a title 2 years ago. When they got AI he knew they had no shot at a title any more, then he had to back the guy up. Damn right he's pissed.

You all live in a fairy tale some times.

Rip's the better player, but I think it's time for him to move on.

He's obviously bitter and it's time for culture change.

I don't like Stuckey and Gordon together, but I could get much more excited about it if we got a legit #1 starting PG to fill out our four guard rotation (PG, BG, Stuck, Bynum and sometimes Afflalo).

He's obviously bitter


Fucks sake.

Don't get me wrong, he has good reason, it just doesn't change the fact that he is.

He isn't "bitter". He was upset he lost a chance at a title last year(in his mind or whatever, let's not get off on that) and was an all-star coming off the bench. Give him another shot and he'll get over it quickly. This is no reason to replace him with a worse player.

You're speculating (and so am I), none of his really knows his mindset. All we can judge is his outward demeanor, and it doesn't look good to me.

Add in that the prevailing opinion is that Joe is going to target a high caliber 3pt shooter and Rip's days as a Piston look numbered to me.

He isn't "bitter". He was upset he lost a chance at a title last year(in his mind or whatever, let's not get off on that) and was an all-star coming off the bench. Give him another shot and he'll get over it quickly. This is no reason to replace him with a worse player.
I think that it's equally possible that he's pissed that he signed that extension, his buddy is gone, he got jerked with and sent to the bench and he's playing for a shitty coach.

But it's all speculation, of course.

I'd rather have RIP than Gordon. RIP at least plays defense and is a better passer (not great though). Yes, Dumars was only 6'3", but players are a lot bigger now. you had 6'6" centers back in the day too.

Now if we have a move that sends RIP for an all star caliber big, I'd consider Gordon (wouldn't be my first choice, but would be in the mix). If my choices are RIP/Millsap or Gordon/Bosh for example I'd take the latter.

My concern is that Stuckey doesn't play off the ball at all. In a 2 combo guard backcourt you need both to be able to play with or without the ball. Look at Miami. Wade is clearly more of a dominating the ball SG (like Gordon would be). But Chalmers can knock down three pointers off the ball. I think for Gordon to work here, Stuckey needs to improve his range.

Some of you guys would probably find things to complain about if we were somehow able to land Kobe or Wade, too.
See what you've done gla?

I think gla is right about Atticus being bitter though.

I love the idea of stocking up on redundant guards again. That plan never goes away, the justification for it just changes.

I agree with what Chris just posted.

See what you've done gla?

I think gla is right about Atticus being bitter though.

I love the idea of stocking up on redundant guards again. That plan never goes away, the justification for it just changes.

I agree with what Chris just posted.

You may want to go back and re-read some things. Nobody said I was bitter. Rip is the one being labeled "bitter."

I don't think Joe is looking to stock up redundant guards. He's looking to dump a complainer who has maxed out his abilities and replace him with a younger, hungrier, better-in-the-clutch player as part of his plan to acquire a big man.

Something else to consider is that Gordon hasn't been asked to be a facilitator in Chicago. That was Kirk's job. And bringing Gordon here would still leave Stuckey as the PG. He'd be asked to score and break his man down off the dribble, two things which I think he does better than Rip does.

I'm not sure I blame anyone for complaining last year when the coach had no clue what he was doing. The question is RIP's mindset now that AI is gone.

Sam Smith's never really been known as reliable.

Something else to consider is that Gordon hasn't been asked to be a facilitator in Chicago. That was Kirk's job. And bringing Gordon here would still leave Stuckey as the PG. He'd be asked to score and break his man down off the dribble, two things which I think he does better than Rip does.
In collage his A/TO ration was 1.3, 1.4, 1.6 at UConn. Gordon shared the PG duties basically with Talik Brown for two years when Caron Butler was the primary scorer. However, Marcus Williams was the primary ball handler in Gordon's last year (twice the assists of Gordon).

I won't say he can't run an offense. That's not really my worry at all because we don't need a guy to come in a play PG full time if Stuckey develops his skills running an offense. My worry is that if he can run an offense, what does Stuckey do?

so which team will take RIP and his 4 year contract @11 per year and give us back a quality big??? you really wanna give up RIP for a guy like Dalembert? Kaman? Clippers don't need a SG...Okafor? they won't want RIPs contract...i am sure we could just dump RIP for an expiring contract like we did with Chauncey , like a deal for Dampier, but thats not exactly what we're looking for, right?

You may want to go back and re-read some things. Nobody said I was bitter. Rip is the one being labeled "bitter."

You'll catch up eventually.

I don't think Joe is looking to stock up redundant guards. He's looking to dump a complainer who has maxed out his abilities and replace him with a younger, hungrier, better-in-the-clutch player as part of his plan to acquire a big man.

No, you're not bitter at all.

so which team will take RIP and his 4 year contract @11 per year and give us back a quality big??? you really wanna give up RIP for a guy like Dalembert? Kaman? Clippers don't need a SG...Okafor? they won't want RIPs contract...i am sure we could just dump RIP for an expiring contract like we did with Chauncey , like a deal for Dampier, but thats not exactly what we're looking for, right?

I'd take:

Bosh, Amare, Kaman, Okafor, West, Biedrins

Players who are off limits I'm sure:
Howard, Aldridge, Gasol, Bynum

BTW, Josh Smith is rumored to be available. I'd take him next to a solid defensive center (like Okafor).

I also didn't mention FA's since we can sign them without using RIP in a trade.

Fool, now you're just being cryptic. Please address the points I made without pure sarcasm.

so which team will take RIP and his 4 year contract @11 per year and give us back a quality big??? you really wanna give up RIP for a guy like Dalembert? Kaman? Clippers don't need a SG...Okafor? they won't want RIPs contract...i am sure we could just dump RIP for an expiring contract like we did with Chauncey , like a deal for Dampier, but thats not exactly what we're looking for, right?

I think Utah would be pretty interested in pairing Rip with Deron Williams, if we could workout a sign and trade. This all assumes that Boozer opts out, or that we're willing to give Milsap some big money.

In collage his A/TO ration was 1.3, 1.4, 1.6 at UConn. Gordon shared the PG duties basically with Talik Brown for two years when Caron Butler was the primary scorer. However, Marcus Williams was the primary ball handler in Gordon's last year (twice the assists of Gordon).

I won't say he can't run an offense. That's not really my worry at all because we don't need a guy to come in a play PG full time if Stuckey develops his skills running an offense. My worry is that if he can run an offense, what does Stuckey do?

Chris, I'll freely admit this is a good point. As I've said elsewhere, I think Stuckey will have improved enough from offseason work to play SG/Combo guard just fine. I'm sure he has spent his time shooting a thousand jumpers per day to work on his game, and if that's the case, he would be fine off the ball. He could still be dangerous on the wings without the ball in his hands, as once he catches, he can go to the hole or put up a shot.

Make a valid point and I would address it.

I think that it's equally possible that he's pissed that he signed that extension, his buddy is gone, he got jerked with and sent to the bench and he's playing for a shitty coach.

But it's all speculation, of course.


So certain someones should stop bringing it his attitude as fact.

Add in that the prevailing opinion is that Joe is going to target a high caliber 3pt shooter and Rip's days as a Piston look numbered to me.


Money where your mouth is? Let's make an Avatar control bet.

When doesn't gla think Rip won't be a Piston?

When doesn't gla think Rip won't be a Piston?

I'm all about taking advantage of a sucker.

So certain someones should stop bringing it his attitude as fact.
I'll have to go back and read, but if I did that, then I was wrong. It's just my take on things and if I didn't properly explain that then my bad.


Money where your mouth is? Let's make an Avatar control bet.
I think he'll probably get moved, but I'm okay if he doesn't, too. This isn't one of my signature bold stances or anything, it's just good old fashioned speculative opinion & gut feel.

Joe seems to know when to bail on guys, and this could be the right time.

So you trust your gut or not? Come on big guy.

He's obviously bitter

^I do think it was pretty obvious that he was bitter, but my bad for wording it that way.

As far as "the bet", I don't care enough to give you control of my av, lol.

I just like throwing shit out there, you should know that by now.

Now if you pick something that I feel strongly about, then we can talk.

Just curious though, do you think Joe will keep Rip because he wants him on the team, or because he won't get an acceptable return on him?

Do you think that he won't even explore trading him?

09' Playoff stats

Gordon: 24.3 pts per game and 37% from 3

Rip: 13.2 pts per game and 20% from 3

just sayin'

^I do think it was pretty obvious that he was bitter,



I took "He's" as "he is", not "was". Do you think it is obvious that he still is today?

Just curious though, do you think Joe will keep Rip because he wants him on the team, or because he won't get an acceptable return on him?

Do you think that he won't even explore trading him?

I think he won't trade him because he doesn't feel he will get a better player (or contract or whatever helps the team) than Rip in a deal. That is the only reason Joe would ever pull a deal. He wants him on the team so much as he feels he's a piece of a championship team.

I took "He's" as "he is", not "was". Do you think it is obvious that he still is today?

Haven't seen him. Don't know. I assume you haven't seen him either?

All I have are those lasting impressions.

I think he won't trade him because he doesn't feel he will get a better player (or contract or whatever helps the team) than Rip in a deal. That is the only reason Joe would ever pull a deal. He wants him on the team so much as he feels he's a piece of a championship team.

Is that a fact, or just speculation on your part?

He was a piece of a championship team, that's for sure.

Joe only wants anyone so much as he feels he's a piece of a championship team.

I don't think RIP or Tay will be traded unless it nets him an all star big man (Bosh/Amare/etc). I think he has faith in both of them. That said, I think he'll explore deals for anyone but Stuckey.

I am FINE with anybody on the current roster going. I don't care if the player we get is perfectly equal in talent, I just want a new look. I can't stand looking at Rip's stupid facemask or dumbass goatee anymore. I can't stand looking at Tayshaun's rediculous "no foul" expression or his silly freckles. For all I care, move all of them. I'd take Gordon in a heartbeat.

Just to play Devil's advocate here, what about a possibility we haven't discussed yet? Is it possible that if we get Ben Gordon that Stuckey could be moved? What about a deal to Toronto for Bosh? Stuck and Rip or Tay for Bosh? I could definitely live with a starting core of Bosh and Ben. Two good pieces to start with.

like the idea, who would play point then???

nobody would be playing point. That's why its a terrible idea.

Will Bynam isn't leading us anywhere.

I'll have to go back and read, but if I did that, then I was wrong. It's just my take on things and if I didn't properly explain that then my bad.


I think he'll probably get moved, but I'm okay if he doesn't, too. This isn't one of my signature bold stances or anything, it's just good old fashioned speculative opinion & gut feel.

Joe seems to know when to bail on guys, and this could be the right time.

change that to Joe always knows when it's time to bail, except for Chauncey-in which he cost us a 50 win season. That's a whole other thread...

...because this forum was clamoring for one more 50-win and nothing season...

Something else to consider is that Gordon hasn't been asked to be a facilitator in Chicago. That was Kirk's job. And bringing Gordon here would still leave Stuckey as the PG. He'd be asked to score and break his man down off the dribble, two things which I think he does better than Rip does.

not sure what gordon you watch atrocious, but it surely isnt the same one i have seen. dont let a couple playoff games blind you. did he even shoot 40% in the playoffs?

are people comparing gordon to dumars? what they are both black and play baseketball? if so, i agree.

09' Playoff stats

Gordon: 24.3 pts per game and 37% from 3

Rip: 13.2 pts per game and 20% from 3

just sayin'

we got a dude that says "just sayin" too. seems as if it must be the in thing for confused pete and his buddies to say.

Joe only wants anyone so much as he feels he's a piece of a championship team.

Herrmann, Brezec, Murray, Mo Evans, etc.

Herrmann, Brezec, Murray, Mo Evans, etc.

Darvin Ham.

That was awful Glenn. Even Coleman was swapped for Corliss in order to free himself of a deal that may have hindered his chances to resign a key player.

Joe is infallable, in other words.

Joe is infallable, in other words.


His intent sure should be.

people go to jail for less than what herms just did.

seriously, how did the lakers win a title with adam morrison and sun yue. what the fuck was kupchak thinking?

he also gave the full MLE to luke walton. Can't forget that.

he also gave the full MLE to luke walton. Can't forget that.

i didnt think it was the full mle. though personally i actually like waltons game. lots of players that are much worse than him are making more than that.

BTW, Josh Smith is rumored to be available. I'd take him next to a solid defensive center (like Okafor).
How "solid" is Okafor defensively? I seem to remember him getting plastered by Dwight on a regular basis, and I have to believe LB would be inclined to keep him if he were defensively great. What's holding Charlotte back?

Ben Gordon ready to see what awaits in free agency
Rumors persist free-agent-to-be headed to Detroit Pistons

K.C. Johnson On the Bulls
June 18, 2009

So, Ben Gordon, do you or your agent have a backroom agreement to sign with Detroit when the free-agency period begins July 1?

"You can't even negotiate until July 1, so that's just rumors," Gordon said Wednesday at his basketball camp in Lisle. "I really don't know what's going to happen."

Several media outlets, including the Tribune, have reported Gordon is expected to be a primary target of the Pistons, who have roughly $23 million of salary-cap space. Former Tribune NBA reporter Sam Smith took matters to another level Wednesday, writing on Bulls.com that he has "heard that Gordon's agent allegedly has been saying he has an $11 million promise from the Pistons."

Even if true, nobody would confirm this development because it would represent a violation of league rules. But free agents verbally agree to terms on the first day of free agency all the time, which suggests either parameters for deals privately get discussed prematurely or the official offers are so large as to blow the player away.

Whatever the case, the sight of Gordon, wearing Bulls gear, spending six hours leading two sets of campers through drills and instructions at the Bulls/White Sox Training Academy with less than two weeks until he's an unrestricted free agent proved surreal.

"You see those kids?" Gordon said, pointing onto a court surrounded by Bulls banners. "That's why I came -- to coach my camp. Whatever happens in the future shouldn't affect what I'm doing today. So I'm just carrying on as if I'm still here. There's no reason for me not to do the camp. Any other way of handling it would be wrong to the kids."

That's why Gordon bent low to ask kids their names, signed autographs and posed for pictures between sessions and smiled broadly throughout.

"I've been pretty consistent with what I've said: The NBA is a business," Gordon said. "Regardless of what happens, you have to separate the business side from your emotions. And I did that.

"Things didn't go my way but that didn't stop me from approaching my job the same way and loving the game of basketball. There are a lot of people in worse situations than me, so there's really no need to be stressed about it or have bad blood."

Gordon spouted his stock answer about loving his time with the Bulls and how he dreamed about retiring with them after a 15-year career and "a couple of championship rings."

But his words sounded hollow this time, like, well, a backroom agreement?

"One thing I've learned for sure in the NBA is you don't have a deal until something is signed," Gordon said. "Come July 1, I'm excited to see what's out there. I'm excited with the possibility of getting a long-term deal."

Is Fire Dumars Diddy? You guys need a fucking Username key over there. Breakthrough Wolf T-Shirt is maybe the best name I've ever seen though.

Maurice (Old Lyme, Conn.): OK, if the Pistons get Ben Gordon, does that mean that Rip Hamilton gets traded? Also, are the Pistons looking to move up in the draft and if they are, is DeJuan Blair someone they’re looking at? You said he’s lost 40 pounds – is that good or bad?

Langlois: Losing 40 pounds when you’re 300-plus on a 6-foot-7 frame is good. Whether NBA teams trust the weight loss or not is another thing. Blair’s two ACL tears are the bigger issue now, and bad knees coupled with a weight problem make for a double-whammy. At some point, Blair becomes too good to pass up. Whether that’s at 15 or not, it depends who else the Pistons covet and if he’s still on the board at 15. I don’t necessarily think signing Gordon means Hamilton has to go. Mine might be a minority opinion, but I still think Hamilton can play enough minutes at small forward to make it work. But signing Gordon would allow the Pistons to entertain offers for Hamilton that could address their frontcourt needs, too.

Based on the blue text, I think we can confirm that Keith is nuts. IMO.

Christian (St. Clair, Mich.): What are the chances of the Pistons possibly signing Lamar Odom? Do you think when the season starts that anyone from the 2004 championship team will still be in Detroit?

Langlois: Odom’s an interesting guy because of his versatility. The Lakers are certainly putting out vibes that they intend to keep him and, despite some friction between him and Phil Jackson, Odom has said he’d like to stay – even indicating he’d be willing to give a home-team discount. If that’s the case, forget about him coming here. Do I think both Rip Hamilton and Tayshaun Prince will be traded this summer? It wouldn’t stun me, but I’d say the odds are better that both return, though the best odds are probably that one or the other would be dealt.

So Herm, we know that you think Rip will be back, do you feel the same way about Tay?

09' Playoff stats

Gordon: 24.3 pts per game and 37% from 3

Rip: 13.2 pts per game and 20% from 3

just sayin'

Thanks Wizzle, for helping my case. Fool will find some way to overlook this, though.

very small sample, but Gordon got hot, no doubt

and Rip knew we had no chance

not sure what gordon you watch atrocious, but it surely isnt the same one i have seen. dont let a couple playoff games blind you. did he even shoot 40% in the playoffs?

Do you even watch basketball, toiletpaper? Gordon kept that team alive and was CLUTCH. If you want to talk strictly stats, go play with Hollinger, genius.

Gordon is fun to watch, can get hot as hell, but come on, you want him over Rip? I'm all for making changes, but you just can't build a title around Gordon.

Gordon is fun to watch, can get hot as hell, but come on, you want him over Rip? I'm all for making changes, but you just can't build a title around Gordon.

What's the difference? You can't build a title around Rip, either. I think too many people still see Rip as the guy who frequently carried us against the Pacers, when in reality, he's much closer to the guy who just averaged 13 per game against Cleveland, against guys like DELONTE WEST, BOOBIE GIBSON, and MO WILLIAMS. Gordon would have carved those guys up like nobody's business.

Rip hasn't been the same guy since Chauncey left, and he won't be again unless he gets a PG in the same mold as Chauncey -- a stand still, one pass PG. Since Stuckey isn't likely to transform into that overnight, I think you consider finding someone who can fit with Stuckey and moving Rip.

Gordon is fun to watch, can get hot as hell, but come on, you want him over Rip? I'm all for making changes, but you just can't build a title around Gordon.
seconded

How will I ever be able to overlook 4 games?

And I completely agree that Rip is "much more like" those 4 games rather than his season or career averages. I consider April 18th as the day Rip was reborn.

No, but you'll overlook that the stats we're talking about are from the playoffs. And you'll overlook that Rip is aging fast, while Gordon is still young and improving.

So Herm, we know that you think Rip will be back, do you feel the same way about Tay?


Yes. Tay is more likely to be dealt, maybe 20%. I put Rip at 10.

No, but you'll overlook that the stats we're talking about are from the playoffs. And you'll overlook that Rip is aging fast, while Gordon is still young and improving.


Rip is one of the best playoff performers of his generation. Certainly the best on a Pistons team that was very, very good in the playoffs for a long time.

And Rip is not aging fast, but you don't believe that so I'm not going to let you troll us with it.

Okay, let's hang on to the core of this team forever. See you guys at next year's draft lottery.

Okay, let's hang on to the core of this team forever. See you guys at next year's draft lottery.

LOL. Sheed, Billups and Ben are all gone. That's already 3/5 of the core. I'll move RIP for a good big man, but otherwise I'm happy with him. he's a good player. I think judging him on last year (shit coach, no set rotation, no offensive playcalling) is a big mistake.

Okay, let's hang on to the core of this team forever. See you guys at next year's draft lottery.


No, we got rid of the core of some of the team and came within a game of seeing us at this one. Change for the sake of it will not produce results. Gonna go out on a limb that Ben Gordon is much more familiar with his teams results in the draft lottery than Rip Hamilton.

sign and trade rip for gordon and prince for ariza and shannon brown. still leaves us cap room.....ahh well, a guy can dream anyway.

sign and trade rip for gordon and prince for ariza and shannon brown. still leaves us cap room.....ahh well, a guy can dream anyway.

I just threw up.

sign and trade rip for gordon and prince for ariza and shannon brown. still leaves us cap room.....ahh well, a guy can dream anyway.

nightmare?

You gotta get more than Gordon, Ariza and Shannon Brown for Rip & Tay. Way more, IMO.

No, but you'll overlook that the stats we're talking about are from the playoffs. And you'll overlook that Rip is aging fast, while Gordon is still young and improving.
And you'll overlook all the problems created by having a 6'2" shooting guard who's too short to guard any 2s and not quick enough to guard any 1s.

...as opposed to our celebrated 6'3" Joe Dumars, who was also short for his position and too slow to guard any 1s....

...as opposed to our celebrated 6'3" Joe Dumars, who was also short for his position and too slow to guard any 1s....
That's a horrible comparison. Terribly ignorant.

...as opposed to our celebrated 6'3" Joe Dumars, who was also short for his position and too slow to guard any 1s....

Glenn, your shtick is getting out of hand.

i think you guys are overvaluing rip and prince. what 'way more' would we get for them? sure, i'd look for a pick or 2 in there.

but while they are good players, they have their limitations too. they are not stars and are not going to bring in the package of players i think some of you are thinking of.

whether you like what i've proposed or not, i am curious to know what some of you think their true value is. admitedly, this was not a long thought out proposal, so don't lecture me about gordon or ariza or whatever. just tell me players you think we could realistically get if we traded the 2 of them.

we should all know by now that we obviously won't trade them for the sake of trading them, and we won't trade them for nothing.....but their value has always been higher for what they did in the style we played, and their value on the open market is not near as high IMO.

BTW- i just threw that 'proposal' out there and was not looking in depth at players who might be available that we could trade those 2 for. but i'm willing to bet we'd get less in a trade for them than many of you seem to think.

JMO of course.

RIP for Nene

That's a horrible comparison. Terribly ignorant.
no less ignorant than judging a guard's defensive abilities solely on height.

I was merely illustrating how idiotic you sound.

no less ignorant than judging a guard's defensive abilities solely on height.

I was merely illustrating how idiotic you sound.


Ben Gordon gets beat on defense over and over based on his height.

Joe didn't.

Incredibly, painfully stupid.

This thread gets better by the hour.

...as opposed to our celebrated 6'3" Joe Dumars, who was also short for his position and too slow to guard any 1s....
The average height when Dumars played was 6'7" and it's now up to 6'7.5"

That may not seem like a lot more, but how many 6'7'-6'8" SG's were there in the 80's? I'm sure the current average is hurt by the fact that big lumbering centers don't make it anymore. Lots of them are 6'9-6'10" athletic PF's playing center.

George Gervin was a 6'8" SG and he retired the same season Joe was drafted..

Joe was in a division where he was pretty much the smallest starting SG in the late 80's-early 90's. Steve Smith, Kendall Gill, Michael Jordan, Ron Harper, Reggie Miller, etc. The List goes on forever. The NBA didnt just come out with 6'6"+ guards after Joe retired. He was undersized pretty much every night.

Lack of height is only a difference when the other guy knows how to take advantage. And since 1 out of 20 SGs in the NBA have a clue how to post up anymore...

Are they more athletic now? Sure. But that doesn't make them any more effective. When you can't play with your back to the basket, height doesn't mean much.

This isn't my arguement anyway. My concern with Gordon is that Stuckey can't shoot a jumper off the ball. If he can develop his range like RIP did a few years ago I think it could work. When Lebron came in the league his jumper was very suspect (especially threes). That's not an issue now.

Well, Rip loves posting him up. I guess we take him on and no one in the league goes at him. Great.

no less ignorant than judging a guard's defensive abilities solely on height.

I was merely illustrating how idiotic you sound.

I watched about 50 Bulls games this year. I'm basing my opinion on seeing him get torched over and over and over again.

George Gervin was a 6'8" SG and he retired the same season Joe was drafted..

Joe was in a division where he was pretty much the smallest starting SG in the late 80's-early 90's. Steve Smith, Kendall Gill, Michael Jordan, Ron Harper, Reggie Miller, etc. The List goes on forever. The NBA didnt just come out with 6'6"+ guards after Joe retired. He was undersized pretty much every night.

Lack of height is only a difference when the other guy knows how to take advantage. And since 1 out of 20 SGs in the NBA have a clue how to post up anymore...

Are they more athletic now? Sure. But that doesn't make them any more effective. When you can't play with your back to the basket, height doesn't mean much.
You're taking the exception, Joe D, and making it into a rule. Sure, it's possible for a shorter SG to defend bigger guards well, but 90% of them don't, and when their defensive skills are as bad as BG's, their height is just that much more exposed.

I don't even think Gordon's defensive skills are that bad. He's average.

I don't even think Gordon's defensive skills are that bad. He's average.


I'll disagree, but that's a fair comment at least.

14 pages on Sam Smith's BS rumor... seriously?
Just go bigs... fill in the positions we're not weak at later... unless we've got a Rip for Oak type deal already lined up.

they wouldn't go after gordon unless they already had such a deal lined up.

That's kind of my thinking, too.

Of course, that line of thinking would get me excited if we did sign Gordon, because immediate help in the paint would be on the way.

Trading rip for one big and using our remaining cap space to sign another would set us up nicely.

Everyone knows I have proposed signing Ben Gordon and after reading Herm's post pages ago regarding how Gordon scores the majority of his points (not off one on one's or breaking his man down) I have but 1 question:

In Joe's opinion is it possible that Stuckey might remain the PG on offense and we'll have Gordon moving without the ball?

WTFChris stated that he is concerned that Stuckey doesn't have the range on his jumper to finish plays Gordon creates....

But Gordon certainly has the range to finish plays that Stuckey creates, right?

I think people are looking at Gordon all wrong.

Yes, you can't build a championship team around him.
Yes, he's not the proven performer that Rip is.
Yes, it's fair to say Rip is a better defender.

But Gordon is younger, is a better ball handler and is also a high volume 3 point shooter.

People are worried about his size on D against other SG's, or his footspeed against PG's. No one has even considered the fact that we are going to have at least 1 new addition to our frontline, who may (or may not) help us greatly when it's time to protect the rim.

Like I stated in another post:

Some of you guys are looking at each individual deal (Rip v Gordon) and not considering any other move. It's about building a team that can win the title. We ain't getting Lebron or Kobe in here anytime soon.

BTW, has anyone considered that this is just a rumour from Gordon's agent?

No one else is gonna chase his client - dude could be trying to leverage more money out of the Bulls.

BTW, I think we all need to re-visit Joe's end of season presser. He made it pretty clear what he thought the team needed and what his aims were for the off-season.

Maybe I put more stock in his words than others?

I'm with you on all of that except for Stuckey creating plays at all (unless it's for himself).

I think one can safely say the same thing about Gordon.

Who creates plays for others with a Gordon/Stuckey backcourt?

Bynum? From the bench? Turkoglu?

Ultimately, I think Joe handing the starting PG job to Stuckey last year may become even more of a problem going forward. If he tries to bring him off the bench now (which is the best role for him, IMO, first guard off the bench, no matter if it's Gordon or Rip at the 2) I think he'll lose him, mentally.

The Pistons as a franchise have tried bringing rookies along slowly and we've had nothing good come of it. With Stuckey Joe changed that and I think everyone judges the youngster harshly.

I understand that everyone (me included) had a lot of love and respect for Chauncey, for what he'd done and what he could continue to do for the organisation but let's get real:

We weren't gonna win a title with the team we had, even with Chauncey. Some people believe that it's cool to just make the playoffs every year and be reasonably successful year after year until the vets all drop off the face of the Earth.

Joe had been there and seen that and thought: "Fuck that!"

So he did what he thought he needed to do. Some believe he made a good move, others believe he fucked up and some others are waiting to see what we get with the cap space.

But it doesn't matter what we want. All that matters is what Joe has done and what he has said are his intentions, his vision for this team. Like I said maybe I'm reading more into his words than others but IIRC what he described doesn't appear to leave much room for Richard Hamilton (or Tayshaun Prince).

Joe said he wanted another ball handler on the floor with Stuckey. Rip is not that guy and neither is Prince.

Joe made a real point of stressing how much he loves the 3 and mentioned having high volume 3 point shooters. Rip and Tay don't meet that criteria either.

And finally Joe stated that his goal was to get guys that could develop with Stuckey and be part of the next 3 or 5 year run. Do Rip and Tay fit into that?

At the end of the day I won't get my way - my NBA died years ago. There will be no pushing and shoving in the paint. Maxiell will not lay waste to whatever superstar wants to dunk on our home hoops and you won't see Chauncey and Rip running up and down the court laughing their asses off as we run riot.

I may or may not agree with Joe hitching his wagon to Rodney Stuckey - but Joe can't change horses now. He picked his and now he's got to run with him. As a first year starter, with a constantly changing starting line-up and on a team featuring a fading Allen Iverson, a pouting Richard Hamilton, a past it Rasheed Wallace, an able but not willing Tayshaun Prince AND coached by the useless Mike Curry I think Stuckey did a pretty damn good job for someone in his position.

I might think that building a team around Rodney Stuckey is not the best way forward but again it doesn't matter what I think. It's up to Joe. And from where I sit and after reading what Joe said I think Gordon could be a Piston come mid July and he'd be in there with Stuckey, not Rip.

And who creates for others if we do have a Gordon and Stuckey backcourt? I would guess that Stuckey will still be the primary ball handler. Stuckey does a pretty good job getting by his man. He's guilty of over dribbling and his court sense and game management need a lot of work but remember he just finished his first year as a starter.

And remember it's up to Curry to take advantage of who we have on our roster and construct an offensive system that molds all the parts into something special.

I know he can't do that - which is why I find all this talk about "in our offense" so laughable. What offensive system?

And you'll overlook all the problems created by having a 6'2" shooting guard who's too short to guard any 2s and not quick enough to guard any 1s.

Vin, I'll grant that he's too small for 2's (Stuckey's job), but I think he's plenty quick for 1's. Maybe he can't hold Chris Paul and Rose, but who can?

Vecsey


So far, the $30M-under-the-cap Pistons are said to have prioritized free agents Carlos Boozer, Ben Gordon, Turkoglu and Ariza. If they sign Gordon, doesn't that mean Rip Hamilton has to go? If Allen Iverson didn't fit or accept coming off the bench in back of Hamilton and Rodney Stuckey, why would Gordon work?

http://www.nypost.com/seven/06192009/sports/moresports/lincoln_star_stephenson_in_sights_175022.htm?&page=2

check out the big brain on vescey....

I just noticed that he says "$30m under the cap".

um, no.

that would be awesome, though...

That would be ridiculous. We could essentially buy whatever players we wanted as long as they had a terrible contract to get rid of with him.

Maybe Vescey does the book keeping for Knicks.

http://www.nypost.com/img/cols/petervecsey.jpg

Why can't I shake the sneakin' suspicion Joe Dumars plans to overhaul the loaded-with-cap-room Pistons in one summer swoop by trading Rip Hamilton and Tayshaun Prince?

Only way I see that happening is if Bosh or Amare is involved.]

I could also see them going to charlotte for Wallace, Okafor and Felton.

4 new starters next year, 3 had better be genuine studs.

Only way I see that happening is if Bosh or Amare is involved.]

I could also see them going to charlotte for Wallace, Okafor and Felton.

if we got that deal done, i will personal crown joe dumars the king of the universe. that would be a ridiculously good deal. so much so, that there's no way charlotte would do it. they'd be giving up 3 huge pieces of their future, at least 2 of which with allstar potential, for 2 guys whose ceiling has already been reached and who don't fit today's nba style of play near as well as they did 5 years ago.

bobcats would never do that IMO, but it sure would be nice.

I was intrigued when I saw that as well.

If Rip does get traded, I think Charlotte is a real possibility.

If LB had a shot to get both Rip and Tay, you know he would be in MJ's ear.

we've swindled mj once before....but even he isn't dumb enough to do that deal IMO. one can hope though!

Felton
Stuckey
Wallace
Dice
Okafor

A good starting point.

Charlotte is trying to dump wallace and Felton already. They only player of that trio they even WANT to keep is Okafor.

Felton
Stuckey
Wallace
Dice
Okafor

A good starting point.

Felton/Bynum
Gordon/Stuckey
Wallace
Boozer
Okafor

Even better.

really? why on earth would they want to dump wallace? he's an allstar calibur player. i haven't heard that at all.

and i thought given his recent play that felton was a guy they'd want to keep around too. not near as much as wallace, but i can't see them trading those 3 guys for our 2. that is a lopsided deal IMO and favors us a good deal.

really? why on earth would they want to dump wallace? he's an allstar calibur player. i haven't heard that at all.

and i thought given his recent play that felton was a guy they'd want to keep around too. not near as much as wallace, but i can't see them trading those 3 guys for our 2. that is a lopsided deal IMO and favors us a good deal.

$.

really? why on earth would they want to dump wallace? he's an allstar calibur player. i haven't heard that at all.

and i thought given his recent play that felton was a guy they'd want to keep around too. not near as much as wallace, but i can't see them trading those 3 guys for our 2. that is a lopsided deal IMO and favors us a good deal.

For whatever reason, they've tried to dump gerald wallace for a while now. I think his contract may have something to do with it, and his injury history.

There have been rumors about cleveland getting gerald wallace for wally szerbiak.

holy crap. injuries or not, they'd be crazy to dump him like that. and just to save a buck....? wow. i'd love that deal bigtime.

if that's the case, let's offer them a case of ankle tape and a bag of skittles for wallace.

Here's the trouble with him. He's been teamed with a good bit of talent there, and had no results. He may just need another scene, he may be a guy who puts up tons of roto stats but doesn't get his team any closer to wins. He gets paid a good bit of cash, so he's eventually responsible.

But I hear nothing but good things about him as a teammate or as far as being coachable. He hustles. I was a fan of trying to get him 3 years ago, I wouldn't be pissed to add him.

Felton still hasn't developed a jumper has he? Wouldn't he be a terrible pairing with Stuckey?

If we're doing that deal, we're probably going after a post PF more than Gordon. Someone to pair with Okafor's defense.

defensively, Felton would really be nice.

I'd rather see us get Felton, Wallace and Okafor than spend any big money on Gordon and Boozer.

If we dealt Rip and Tay for the 3 of them I wouldn't complain

After making that trade we could sign Boozer and I wouldn't hate it as much, either - since Okafor would be here to protect the paint.

Felton/Bynum
Stuckey/AA
Wallace/Pick or FA
Boozer/Maxiell/Amir
Okafor/Kwame

This all assume Stuckey has developed his jumper to the point it's reliable and that we could somehow get a quality shooter to back up Wallace at SF.

With Boozer here we'd have a low post scorer and Felton/Stuckey are the ball handlers Joe wants - the one "need" remaining is 3 point shooting.

Felton/Bynum
Gordon/Stuckey
Wallace
Boozer
Okafor

Even better.

That team has offense/defense, scoring from the post/perimeter and youth/experience.

Some injury question marks, though.

felton's J has definitely improved. anyone who watched him in the 2nd half of last season would have been impressed with his play. still needs refinement, but he is rapidly becoming a very solid young PG. remember when he beat us?

they have augustin too, but you could make an argument that felton is now entrenched as their franchise PG for the time being. he averaged 14 and 7 for them last year which is pretty damn good if you ask me. they at least want to keep the 2 guys as a nice 1-2 combo at PG.

yet another reason why i say that trade proposal is way lopsided in our favor. they are building a nice young nucleus there. why on earth would they want to disrupt it to trade away key pieces to their longterm future for 2 guys who have already peaked? makes no sense to me and is why i think this is all just fantasy talk.

i get that they MIGHT want to dump wallace for whatever reasons. but even considering that, the deal is totally favoring us. i'd love it, but i don't think it's realistic at all.

If we take on more salary than we give out and if they get shorter contracts and if they feel a team with Diaw, Tay, Rip, Augustine can make the playoffs I could see them doing it.

They have money issues, their owner is selling part or all of the team, they wanna make the playoffs in a big way and apparently Raja Bell is on the block.

A lot of things could factor into their decision to make that deal, HW.

I don't think it's a simple straight up "No" if Joe offered Rip and Tay.

well that's where i differ. because i think they wouldn't save as much money with that deal as they would lose talent. that's why i think it's very unrealistic.

you're right though- they could make moves based on more than just talent alone. because otherwise a deal like that would be so lopsided it wouldn't even be worth discussing.

JMO though of course.

If they had Diaw, Prince, Rip and Augustine I think they'd be pretty happy.

With the right C (an Okafor type lol) that team could cause some damage, especially with LB as Coach.

Maybe we'd have to take Bell off their hands in the deal, since he's apparently on the block?

They add a defensive kind of SG through the Draft (Henderson/Williams) and we give them Rip, Tay and Amir for Okafor, Wallace, Felton and Bell.

I don't know if that works cap wise (within 25%) but with our cap space it's not really an issue.

We could even throw in our pick if that matters.

Then spend our cap room on Boozer and Dice, bring over Washington and have this:

C: Okafor/Kwame
F: Boozer/Dice/Maxiell
F: Wallace/Bell/Washington
G: Stuckey/AA
G: Felton/Bynum

Thoughts?

^Needs 3pt shooting, which is why I like getting Gordon in there, too.

If the trade comes within the 25% then you could sign Gordon and Boozer first and then make the deal.

That gives you Gordon and Bell as 3 point gunners.

Last time I used ESPN's trade machine the team info didn't load and it's after 11pm here so I ain't checking it now.

I am not trying to trade for any expensive or good players right now. It would be like putting pearls before swine.

Yeah...clearly, you haven't been watching much basketball the last 2 years.

How the fuck were the 2008 champs built, again?

^Needs 3pt shooting, which is why I like getting Gordon in there, too.
So we'd be trading for Bell and Felton, then adding Gordon? Does Felton become our guard off the bench? Gordon isn't signing here to play off the bench. I doubt we move Stuckey to the bench. So we'd have Stuckey and Gordon starting with Felton off the bench. Bell would get a few minutes at SG for sure. That means AA is barely touching the floor. Same with Bynum.

I doubt we move Stuckey to the bench.

Oh, me too, even if that is the perfect role for him.

I still don't see why Gordon would sign here to come off the bench (it's been suggested he'd sign here then we'd try to trade RIP). He's better off in Chicago where he knows they don't really want Hinrich anymore (which would make him full time starter next to Rose). If I'm Gordon I don't sign here unless RIP is already gone (at least in principle).

Christian (Detroit): If the Pistons pick up Gordon, what will happen with Rip? They play the same position.

Langlois: I wouldn’t assume that a Gordon signing would trigger a trade of Hamilton, Christian. Joe Dumars was part of a workable three-guard rotation that carried the Pistons to two NBA titles, if you recall. The reality of the salary cap means you have to spread your resources out, but the Pistons still have two more years of Rodney Stuckey’s rookie contract to go – which means spending on Gordon, still only 26, gives him enough left over to pour resources into his frontcourt, too. Gordon isn’t a guy who needs a ton of minutes to make an impact, either. I think if they were to sign him, Hamilton would remain the shooting guard, but he’d get the backup minutes at small forward behind Tayshaun Prince and Gordon would get in the high 20s to 30 minutes. You could play Gordon and Hamilton together in the backcourt in spurts, as well.

^Eh, I dunno.


Benny (Hart, Mich.): How true is the report out of Chicago that Ben Gordon has an $11 million dollar per year promise from Joe Dumars? According to reports, Joe talked to Gordon’s agent last year when he was a restricted free agent and stated if he was able to clear cap space he would sign him.

Langlois: GMs talk to agents all the time – that’s a very big part of their job. So I wouldn’t doubt that Dumars and Gordon’s agent, Raymond Brothers, have talked. They can’t negotiate a contract for Gordon until July 1, but that wouldn’t have to be a very long negotiation. Dumars has to know roughly what Gordon will ask and what the market this summer will bear; after all, he’s been fixated on the summer market for eight months since the Billups-Iverson trade put the Pistons in the catbird seat for free agency. I can’t speak to the truth about what Gordon’s agent has been telling anybody, but speculation linking Gordon to the Pistons has been brewing under the surface for months. The $11 million annual average, though, seems too high to be accurate.

Yeah...clearly, you haven't been watching much basketball the last 2 years.

How the fuck were the 2008 champs built, again?

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x147/dspiewak/michael_curry.jpg

You were saying?

we can fire Curry in a year. We may not get the kind of leverage we have right now again.

You acquire talent where and when you can get it. You do not snub your nose at quality players.

RIP can play backup SF I guess, but it wouldn't shock me to see Curry jacking around with the lineup and bruising egos either.

If Joe couldn't find a good deal for RIP it wouldn't be the end of the world I guess. He could always move him later. I just think it would have to be clear who the starter is (if they were both here to start camp).

No, Rip has to go if Gordon gets signed. I don't think anybody wants to see Rip get into another passive aggressive meltdown with another gunner.

and there's no way you sign gordon huge money to be your 6th man. no way.

I agree with both statements. But, I think things can be spun right short term until RIP is moved. I just don't like the risk in it though.

We need to find that RIP deal first (if Gordon is really interested for the price Joe is willing to pay).

I think the deal needs to be in place before, but executed after.

The second rip is dealt, all of a sudden gordon can hold out for more $$$.

No, Rip has to go if Gordon gets signed. I don't think anybody wants to see Rip get into another passive aggressive meltdown with another gunner.
Meltdown?

Rip performed at his career numbers when he played, as a starter or off the bench, without the elite PG that supposedly he needs. Sure, some can hate on Rip for being injured more than usual, and claim that his injury was some sort of protest. Some can hate on Rip because he wasn't at (or didn't/wouldn't give) 100% for the playoffs. But that's hardly a meltdown, not in comparison to AI. What was AI's ppg in this year's playoffs?

I think the deal needs to be in place before, but executed after.

The second rip is dealt, all of a sudden gordon can hold out for more $$$.

Why would he ask for more money? He's only coming here if he knows he's the eventual starter. He's not leaving Chicago to be a backup here. He knows the Bulls will trade Kirk if he stays.

So if he already knows he's the starter, what would change with RIP gone? Nothing. He has no bargaining chips because there won't be other teams in the bidding (besides Chicago). And he can't hold us hostage because if we look elsewhere then he's out of options.

if we look elsewhere he can always go back to chicago.

The second rip is gone, gordon will demand more money.

I still say let him go back to Chicago and trade them something for Hinrich. 3pt shooting, he can guard 1s and 2s, he can run the offense and play off the ball. Yes, he's overpaid, but that's the reason you can get him for so little. Offer them max or Kwame's expiring, or even just a 2nd rounder, and see if they bite.

The second rip is gone, gordon will demand more money.

If he does why do we want him anyway? Lets say we offer him 9 mil starting and he knows some way RIP will be traded. What does he expect Joe to say when he suddenly wants 11 mil starting (when RIP is gone)? That pretty much shows he's out for money and not winning (costing us another 2 mil in cap space).

If he simply wants 11 mil to start with I can respect that. Then he thinks that is his market value. He may be wrong, but at least he's not trying to sabotage the team. If he jacks up his price later then he's clearly putting himself first. We've had enough people not playing team ball already.

I still say let him go back to Chicago and trade them something for Hinrich. 3pt shooting, he can guard 1s and 2s, he can run the offense and play off the ball. Yes, he's overpaid, but that's the reason you can get him for so little. Offer them max or Kwame's expiring, or even just a 2nd rounder, and see if they bite.

That would be a solid option if a RIP for big man deal goes down and Gordon/Hedo/Ariza all resign.

I'd like to see us go after Gordon, Milsapp and Charlie V, and trade rip and possibly tayshaun for another big man.

We'd have the worst perimeter D in the league maybe (assuming RIP and Tay are gone). Who plays defense on the wing? which PF comes off the bench?

Plus you're going after two RFA's which means your money is tied up for a while.

pretty sure Hammond wouldn't try to screw with Joe on Charlie V.

Also, I'd never want him as a starter. V is a 6th man type of player. I think he can back up the 3/4 spots pretty easily.

can you get Gordon/Millsap/Charlie for 20 mil?

even if they all are at discounts I don't see it:

Gordon 9 mil
Millsap 7 mil
Charlie 7 mil

I can see Gordon for 8.5 Millsapp for 8 and Charlie for 6, which is better than he;s going to get elsewhere, and Milwaukee isnt going to re-sign him over Sessions.

I'm no huge fan of any of those 3, but that's a pretty impressive influx of young talent there Kstat. You're going to play Milsap at 5, or CV at 3?

I'd bring V off the bench at the 3/4, millsap I'd start at the 4.

The 5 for now is Kwame, but hopefully Joe has a deal wall into hi lap (ie my charlotte idea) where he can get a starting 3 and 5 back for rip and tayshaun.

I can see Gordon for 8.5 Millsapp for 8 and Charlie for 6, which is better than he;s going to get elsewhere, and Milwaukee isnt going to re-sign him over Sessions.
unless you can move Max or Kwame (and take on no salary) we won't have 22.5 mil in cap space.

I wouldn't mind having Villanueva coming off the bench at all, but I don't want him as a starter. The 27mpg that he was getting with the Bucks is just about right for him, primarily at PF. I'd avoid him at SF in most situations because of his defense.

That leaves us with:

Stuckey/Bynum
Gordon/Afflalo
---/Villanueva/Sharpe
Millsap/Villanueva/Max
Kwame

That gives us a solid guard rotation, a good PF with some serious potential, and a decent backup at SF/PF. Kwame isn't a terrible backup C, but I don't want anything to do with him as a starter, same with Villanueva at SF.

You'd better hope you get a starting C AND SF for Tay and Rip, and potentially Max and Kwame.

Reality check: We're not trading Tay and Rip for Wallace and Okafor, as much as people would love for that to happen.

again. we don't have the space unless Kwame or Max is moved. I would say Max because he has no role with Charlie here on the bench. Supposing you moved Max for cap space and RIP for a quality center...then it could work.

I can see Gordon for 8.5 Millsapp for 8 and Charlie for 6, which is better than he;s going to get elsewhere, and Milwaukee isnt going to re-sign him over Sessions.

wanna bet? with this PG rich draft, i'll bet they do just that. sessions is a nice player and all. but is he better than teague, for example? more proven, yes. but he'll also be much more expensive.

given the number of solid young PGs in this draft, i definitely see them keeping charlie v over sessions and drafting a PG like flynn or teague with their pick.

They traded for Amir for a reason.

Hammond is in love with Sessions. It's totally obvious. The second he took over he traded Mo Williams in order to hand sessions the starting gig.

You'd have to be completely dense not to see what he's doing.

lol- and you'd have to be a complete cunt not to see that they can easily replace sessions with a guy like flynn, jennings, or teague.

yeah i get your point; hammond likes sessions and they do have other wings in the fold who could replace charlie V. but all i'm saying is keep an eye on who they draft. if they feel sessions wants a lot more than his market value, then don't kid yourself for a second into thinking they will keep him at all costs. i don't care how much they like him, he's replaceable especially if it's for a cheaper option which the #10 pick likely would be, considering sessions' likely asking price.

so it could make a lot of sense in letting him walk. very curious to see who they draft. it could definitely affect 1 or both of those guys' FA situations.

I guess Hammond is a complete cunt, then.

Hammond loves sessions like dumars loves stuckey. That's his franchise guard. He has zero intention of replacing him. End of story.

So are agents just going to start using the Pistons to shop to other teams that the player 'really' wants to play for?

I mean with all the cap space; it seems like they'd come calling to Joe pretty quickly....iykwim.

That's not necessarily the case.

Teams with cap space last year used it up very quickly. All the big names were signed within a week.

I'm sure some posturing will be going on, but its not like there are other teams out there with cash. No free agent is going to want to go to memphis or OKC instead of Detroit. It' basically do they want to stay where they are or leave for the Pistons?

or possibly swing a sign and trade with someone.

as for sessions- hammond does love the kid. nobody is arguing that. but if he wants a lot more than the bucks are willing to offer him, hammond is smart enough to know he is replaceable. will be interesting to see how it plays out.

i wouldn't be surprised to see them draft a PG with their first pick, to bolster the position and spell out to sessions that they have other options and don't just have to bow to whatever his asking price is.

if this was the nfl they'd tag him and negotiate with charlie V. lol

Sessions has no other offers. The Bucks will obviously offer him more than the MLE, and no other team with cap room is going to bid that high on him.

Furthermore, Hammond is very lukewarm on V. If Dumars wants him, I'm pretty sure Hammond will let him walk.

Joe has always liked charlie V, just like hammond has always been a big fan of amir. It's just a case of two young projects going to places where they are wanted more.

So if Charlie could be considered a lock (and I wouldn't be surprised based on the media blackout) why pay him $6 mil?

Isn't the MLE expected to be less than $5 mil?

Give Charlie a 3 year deal starting at $5.5 mil and see if the dude can make believers out of people.

That way you also have more money to split between Gordon and Millsap or Lee or Boozer before you trade Rip or Tay for a big man.

They traded for Amir for a reason.

Hammond is in love with Sessions. It's totally obvious. The second he took over he traded Mo Williams in order to hand sessions the starting gig.

You'd have to be completely dense not to see what he's doing.


Complete.

Nice pull.

Happy Friday.

currently watching Celts vs. Lakers and see that the Lakers are currently restricted in what they can do offensively. Kobe left, Kobe right, dump it down is all they got. I was thinking Ben Gordon is rotting away in Detroit, he could help them do some damage in the Western Conference, can they get this done with a pick and the rights to Troy Murphy and his expiring deal?
Craig Chandler

[i]Sam: Ben’s in. I’ve been hearing that the Pistons believe they’ll have something going for Ben this offseason. Do you wonder how often he thinks about what life would be like with $10 million less over five years that he hasn’t dipped into yet, obviously, and having been able to stand across the floor from Rose being double and triple teamed. He’d have been Ben Jordan. Same with Joe Johnson. Don’t let you children grow up to be cowboys or listen to their agents who tell them to take the most money. These are the best years or your life and if you have moments of great regret they probably are your fault after you’ve been a free agent.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sam-sam-smith-opens-his-mailbag-051112.html

*(Sam Smith)

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sam-sam-smith-opens-his-mailbag-051112.html

that article made no sense at all. Gordon was just as good without Rose in Chicago, actually he was better. Joe Johnson saw his numbers skyrocket once he got away from Phoenix. What the hell is this dude trying to say? IT almost seems like he's blasting his own arguments.

*(Sam Smith)
Yep

Yeah, when was the last time this Smith guy got anything right when it comes to Ben Gordon and the Pistons????

Fuck him!

He just throws shit at a wall and hopes something sticks.

Once he got the big payday, BG stopped playing aggressively.
The end.
Sam Smith needs two hands and a fucking flashlight.

He just throws shit at a wall and hopes something sticks.

I agree, and when he does that he always makes it pretty clear that he's speculating/fucking around with the trade machine, at least as far as I've seen.

He's guilty of liking pretend trades, for sure, but it's always been clear that that is what he's doing to me. I don't doubt that he also "hears things" that are legitimate.

Once he got the big payday, BG stopped playing aggressively.
The end.
Sam Smith needs two hands and a fucking flashlight.
2 hands?
shit, it ain't hard to see. I'm pretty sure he could get by with a 2 finger key chain LCD bulb shit.

Sam the Sham is devoid of credibility... can't spell... can't say it... farcification extraordinaire.

I agree, and when he does that he always makes it pretty clear that he's speculating/fucking around with the trade machine, at least as far as I've seen.

He's guilty of liking pretend trades, for sure, but it's always been clear that that is what he's doing to me. I don't doubt that he also "hears things" that are legitimate.
I've never seen him make it clear, haven't read much since he was at the trib though. He was infamous for making up trades that were impossible based on the CBA when he was at the trib. Not a real journalist, IMO.

Not a real journalist anymore, agree. Once the team you cover starts paying your salary, you are a PR person. Sam is the Bulls' Langlois.

Kind of a surprise that the Bulls would hire him, actually, since he's a shit stirrer.