OK, this could either be really interesting or a massive shitstorm: Use this thread to talk about your views on a supreme being, in whatever form you happen to observe.

Personally, I believe only in science.

And the Easter bunny.

Kelsey is shy at times but really opens up once you get to know her. She's got this cute little smile where the corner of her lip curls up. She's athletic and just clumsy enough to be cute. She's got a great sense of humor.

7

I believe in a higher power. I do not believe in destiny however. I believe that higher power presents us with situations and we make choices that we have to live with.

So free will, but I don't believe the things I have seen are all just random coincidences.

Personally, I believe only in science.
Which is to say, not in a supreme being? Come on now, don't mince words.

I believe in a higher power. I do not believe in destiny however. I believe that higher power presents us with situations and we make choices that we have to live with.

So free will, but I don't believe the things I have seen are all just random coincidences.
OK, so no predestination but a higher power. What kind of higher power is it? Like, what does it do?

Which is to say, not in a supreme being? Come on now, don't mince words.


No supreme being. No afterlife. No nothing. Worm food.

Just 70.3 years on this big rock doing the best we can.

Better?

I firmly believe that there is more than what we can see, taste or touch. I fully believe that there is a higher power. Is it a supreme being? Well, I definitely don't believe in an old white dude wearing a white robe and sitting on some thrown looking down at humanity. After that I don't know. Is it God, Allah or Brahma? I believe that the search for the answer to this question is a lifetime project for me. On the intellectual side of it I've read quite a bit of Judeo-Christian texts, studied a lot of Hinduism in college and later have delved into Taoism and other eastern thoughts. I would love to delve into Buddhism but don't know where to start (feel free to suggest anything Swami).

And as religion cannot all be intellect I'll just say that not all my beliefs are merely based on my intellectual assumptions. Don't get me wrong, I've had no out of body experiences or religious epiphanies. But I do believe that there have been moments in my life that have been spiritual and not something to just be quantified and qualified.

No supreme being. No afterlife. No nothing. Worm food.

Just 70.3 years on this big rock doing the best we can.

Better?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zozwqhSjMp8/Ry9qd1oMAkI/AAAAAAAAABE/a-aWFUZ3xpQ/s320/Grammar%2BTime.jpg

Very calmly put.

No supreme being. No afterlife. No nothing. Worm food.

Just 70.3 years on this big rock doing the best we can.


That about sums it up.

No supreme being. No afterlife. No nothing. Worm food.

Just 70.3 years on this big rock doing the best we can.



I don't see a lot of evidence that contradicts any of that.

Obama.

Obama.

Pretty much goes without saying with y'all.

Faith is the choice of ignorance.

Faith is the choice of ignorance.

Better words have never been spoken in that case.

I firmly believe that there is more than what we can see, taste or touch. I fully believe that there is a higher power. Is it a supreme being? Well, I definitely don't believe in an old white dude wearing a white robe and sitting on some thrown looking down at humanity. After that I don't know. Is it God, Allah or Brahma? I believe that the search for the answer to this question is a lifetime project for me. On the intellectual side of it I've read quite a bit of Judeo-Christian texts, studied a lot of Hinduism in college and later have delved into Taoism and other eastern thoughts. I would love to delve into Buddhism but don't know where to start (feel free to suggest anything Swami).

And as religion cannot all be intellect I'll just say that not all my beliefs are merely based on my intellectual assumptions. Don't get me wrong, I've had no out of body experiences or religious epiphanies. But I do believe that there have been moments in my life that have been spiritual and not something to just be quantified and qualified.

I knew bukdow was a double account.

I firmly believe that there is more than what we can see, taste or touch. I fully believe that there is a higher power. Is it a supreme being? Well, I definitely don't believe in an old white dude wearing a white robe and sitting on some thrown looking down at humanity. After that I don't know. Is it God, Allah or Brahma? I believe that the search for the answer to this question is a lifetime project for me. On the intellectual side of it I've read quite a bit of Judeo-Christian texts, studied a lot of Hinduism in college and later have delved into Taoism and other eastern thoughts. I would love to delve into Buddhism but don't know where to start (feel free to suggest anything Swami).

And as religion cannot all be intellect I'll just say that not all my beliefs are merely based on my intellectual assumptions. Don't get me wrong, I've had no out of body experiences or religious epiphanies. But I do believe that there have been moments in my life that have been spiritual and not something to just be quantified and qualified.

Holy shit asking Swami for spiritual guidance. We're doomed

I'm gonna think about this one for a bit. Needless to say, religion is the worst thing that has ever happened to humanity, but it is also the smartest invention by humanity. Any god that we can conceive of falls so far short of any god that might exist that to even try is to fail. Religion is the single most destructive force to humanity, yet somehow, oddly, it could be the thing that saves us. But to think that religion could save us is to sink way too much hope in humanity, and sink too much hope in beings that needed religion in the first place.

If there is a supreme being, it is long gone from this planet, having moved on long ago to other rocks to populate with beings that will fuck them up. God certainly doesn't plan our lives, certainly has no fucking idea how many hairs are on our heads, and to think that "he" or "they" created "us" in "their" image is nothing more than human ego at work. We are ALL accidents; none of us should have ever been born, and the fact that we've made it this far is nothing short of, well, an accident, ssing how many sperm have been wasted to just get this many of us along the way. Any more thought put into it other than trying to be funny about it is wasted energy. But that doesn't mean I believe there ISN'T a god, just that he has a hell of alot more to do than worry about whether I give 10% of what I make to some lying motherfucker that is trying to convince me that if I do, god will love me all the more.

A Zip post is like looking at piece of art. It takes you a lil bit to decide if you are looking at a master piece or a piece of shit...or something in between.

I've had a couple tonight so I can only get through the 1st couple of sentences. Right now, ^, 50/50

The worst motherfuckers I have ever met in my life are all into believeing there is a god.

It does get a lil old when everything can just be explained away with God

A Zip post is like looking at piece of art. It takes you a lil bit to decide if you are looking at a master piece or a piece of shit...or something in between.

I've had a couple tonight so I can only get through the 1st couple of sentences. Right now, ^, 50/50

Tahoe, you better sober up before you digest that first post on a supreme being. In fact, have a supreme pizza, you'll get better results, and supreme pizzas can often be delivered, whereas supreme beings don't deliver. In fact, supreme pizzas are better for your wallet: You only have to tip if you feel like it, and even then, no more than 20% of the bill. As for supreme beings, well, those fucktards demand 10% of whatever you got. You got 10 grand, they need a thou. You got ten jars of peanut butter, they need one. And what do supreme beings do with your money or you peanut butter? Who the fuck knows, and if they're so fucking supreme, why the fuck do they need money or peanut butter?
I mean, it's like,
"Hey, I'm the supreme being, you got ten bucks I can borrow so I can go to the movies?"
"WHAT THE FUCK? Can't you just sneak in?"
"Uh, well, now, no, er, how about if I just fry your brains and send you to hell?"
"how 'bout if you do? I say go fuck yourself"
"Well tell you what. I'll be back in two thousand years (or more, ya never know), and until then, well, I'll just fuck with ya'll because ya'll are gonna waste so much time wondering
FUCK OFF
"............."

So much for the supreme being. Get a pizza. You can fill up on it, and then shit it out in the morning.

Tahoe, you better sober up before you digest that first post on a supreme being. In fact, have a supreme pizza, you'll get better results, and supreme pizzas can often be delivered, whereas supreme beings don't deliver. In fact, supreme pizzas are better for your wallet: You only have to tip if you feel like it, and even then, no more than 20% of the bill. As for supreme beings, well, those fucktards demand 10% of whatever you got. You got 10 grand, they need a thou. You got ten jars of peanut butter, they need one. And what do supreme beings do with your money or you peanut butter? Who the fuck knows, and if they're so fucking supreme, why the fuck do they need money or peanut butter?
I mean, it's like,
"Hey, I'm the supreme being, you got ten bucks I can borrow so I can go to the movies?"
"WHAT THE FUCK? Can't you just sneak in?"
"Uh, well, now, no, er, how about if I just fry your brains and send you to hell?"
"how 'bout if you do? I say go fuck yourself"
"Well tell you what. I'll be back in two thousand years (or more, ya never know), and until then, well, I'll just fuck with ya'll because ya'll are gonna waste so much time wondering
FUCK OFF
"............."

So much for the supreme being. Get a pizza. You can fill up on it, and then shit it out in the morning.

LMAO...From what I can tell, from my drunken state, this is Golden...or renoir'ish.

Organised religion is bullshit but surely there must be a supreme being, otherwise all these planets and rocks and stars floating in space would collide on a regular basis?

I do believe that some force "designed" shit.

I don't believe I need to go to a man made building and listen to some dude read from a book a bunch of old Roman dudes put together to unite their troubled empire and line their own pockets.

If I wanna "experience" the "Supreme Being" I can travel via car for an hour and visit the Daintree Rainforest. Or travel via boat for an hour and swim around The Great Barrier Reef.

Those things don't happen by chance - we are not accidents. If you believe we are then you need to do some research on "God", "Supreme Being" or whatever you wanna call it.

The oldest cultures in the world being in a "Supreme Being" and I believe they were not aas fucking arrogant as we are - and all of them can't be wrong...

Right?

I also believe in science and logic. I agree with this statement, "I don't believe I need to go to a man made building and listen to some dude read from a book a bunch of old Roman dudes put together to unite their troubled empire and line their own pockets." I do think church and religion are positive things though that can help people get through tough times or just be a positive influence in general. Extreme thoughts in religion seem to be a problem. For me the idea of giving up meat for lent with the belief that God will respect this is just proposterous. I act on my own morals, I do nothing because the bible says so or the church pastor says so. I could not imagine the mindset these suicide bombers have in the middle east or on sept 11th.

I guess we will all see the day we die or maybe it will be eternal darkness. I dont like the feeling of mortality, it scares me.

I also believe in science and logic. I agree with this statement, "I don't believe I need to go to a man made building and listen to some dude read from a book a bunch of old Roman dudes put together to unite their troubled empire and line their own pockets." I do think church and religion are positive things though that can help people get through tough times or just be a positive influence in general. Extreme thoughts in religion seem to be a problem. For me the idea of giving up meat for lent with the belief that God will respect this is just proposterous. I act on my own morals, I do nothing because the bible says so or the church pastor says so. I could not imagine the mindset these suicide bombers have in the middle east or on sept 11th.

I guess we will all see the day we die or maybe it will be eternal darkness. I dont like the feeling of mortality, it scares me.

And thus, our "hedging my bets" belief in something greater. I'm reminded of DesCartes and his "There is a god because I think there is" argument. Also, the bible (which has all kinds of inherent circular arguments built in) has this curious statement: (Paraphrase): God has set eternity in the hearts and minds of man. Meaning, it is because of god that we think there is a god and can conceive of a future (and supposedly animals can't). Those are two great statements. There's no way to counter them (not that you need to. I mean, really, a person could do a lot worse than to believe he needs to be a good boy so he'll go to heaven).

But of course the problem comes in when people cordon off their beliefs, join groups, go to those buildings, and really convince themselves that their way is the best way, that their god outranks all the others, that their "prophet" is the coolest, and that their interpretation of the Bed Time stories and mythology is the only right one. It isn't a stretch to go from their to lopping off the heads of those who you consider to be infidels spreading fals ideologies to the detriment of the rest of the world.

From almost Day One of any type of civilization, the "leaders" or "rulers" of any particular culture have linked themselves to some sort of deity. Why? Because who better to have put you in charge than some one people can't see, but who can make it rain, get cold, cause famine, etc etc. It's control. Even the "God Bless America" USA. Shit, all the Jews did is follow up all other creation myths, link their lineage to some sort of "god" (and one not terribly opposed to blowing everything up every oncet in awhile)--and for some reason (COUGH**LOBBYISTS AND OIL***COUGH)--we are forever, and probably fatally, linked to their mythology.
And is it me, or does god seem to make the most sense to the least intelligent or most fucked up, and seem more likely to get the least intelligent or most fucked up to act? I mean, why the hell won't Osama Bin Laden strap a bomb to his nuts and run into a shopping mall?

I think it's all lost with this "heaven" thing. What any "god" should accomplish is summed up in the words of the prophet who said, "Love your brother as you would love yourself"--end of story. Fuck all the rest. Of course, I have two brothers and I like one of them but hate the other.

Buddhists say that a Buddha is a Supreme Being, which is to say a being more perfect than any being that lives anywhere in the universe. So there is such a thing as a Supreme Being, but not at the moment.

The universe was not designed or created by any being, it just operates according to natural laws. The Buddha described 31 realms of existence that a being can be born in. They may be more enjoyable to live in, but they are still full of unhappy, sick, dying, and poor beings. The basic facts of life are that stress is pervasive in all life, that everything is impermanent, and that everything is fundamentally insubstantial. These facts apply to all beings, from the Great Brahma down to the dust mite. Basically, if there was such a thing as God, it wouldn't matter. God has nothing to do with freeing yourself from stress.

There is no entity that controls the universe. There's no entity that even controls itself. Buddhists believe that not only is there no almighty God, there isn't any such thing as a soul either.

DXP: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bullitt/theravada.html

I hope I never meet any of you in person. If nobody here believes in a higher being/afterlife, etc...then why bother doing anything good in this world?

If I were all of you I'd say fuck it and do whatever I want (as long as I didn't get caught). God/Karma won't catch up to me.

I hope I never meet any of you in person. If nobody here believes in a higher being/afterlife, etc...then why bother doing anything good in this world?

If I were all of you I'd say fuck it and do whatever I want (as long as I didn't get caught). God/Karma won't catch up to me.
So, why don't you want to do good? Why are "your wants" and "good" so incompatible?

THE UNITED CHURCH OF GL'ENN?

I hope I never meet any of you in person. If nobody here believes in a higher being/afterlife, etc...then why bother doing anything good in this world?

If I were all of you I'd say fuck it and do whatever I want (as long as I didn't get caught). God/Karma won't catch up to me.

Holy shit!

This is how y'all make me out to be.

Because you don't believe in a supreme being, or are agnostic, you can't have morals?

give me a break!

Yeah, I'm not following you here Chris.

It's okay to do good even without the expectation of "the big payback".

Trying to leave this place better than you found it can be reason enough.

I hope I never meet any of you in person. If nobody here believes in a higher being/afterlife, etc...then why bother doing anything good in this world?

If I were all of you I'd say fuck it and do whatever I want (as long as I didn't get caught). God/Karma won't catch up to me.

Somebody is a parrot for a pastor. This is a typically christian argument. Claiming ethics and morals only for the fools who need a pot to drop 10% of their paycheck into to get a cabin on the beach in heaven.

Lemme axe ya this: Why don't Lions go out and slaughter 100 wildebeests just for the fun of it? They can do it, they're fucking lions, man. And wildebeests are just stupid, stinking dumbass wildebeests.
If animals don't just go out and kill shit for the hell of it--say "Hey, what the fuck, let's kill something"--then why all the sudden would people, if they didn't have some fear of going to hell or didn't know about no heaven, completely abandon everything "good" and run amok like, say, something worse than animals?

And ya know, how about all those societies that were here before Jesus came down and started healing lepers? How about all those societies that didn't have a storybook telling them they were the "chosen people"? How'd they make it? How'd they make it without some big fat-assed guidebook that they ignore 98% of the time?

I hope I never meet any of you in person. If nobody here believes in a higher being/afterlife, etc...then why bother doing anything good in this world?

If I were all of you I'd say fuck it and do whatever I want (as long as I didn't get caught). God/Karma won't catch up to me.

I think your argument completely backfires.

Let's take 2 people for example. Person 1 believes in God, and doesn't do bad things just because it might catch up with him regardless of what he thinks on the inside. Person 2 doesn't do bad things because they just don't think that way, and don't need a fear of hell or whatever to prevent them from doing said things.

I'll be friends with person number 2 thank you. I know it's a deeper argument than that, but you just said you'd rather be friends with person 1.

I hope I never meet any of you in person. If nobody here believes in a higher being/afterlife, etc...then why bother doing anything good in this world?

If I were all of you I'd say fuck it and do whatever I want (as long as I didn't get caught). God/Karma won't catch up to me.

Altruistic behavior in groups provides material benefit. Whether you're talking game theory, sociology, animal studies, economics... there are a great many secular angles to a case for cooperation.

Um, Chris - just because someone doesn't believe in a Supreme Being doesn't mean they're an asshole.

I think I speak for many when I say I hate everyone equally. I cope with everyone until they piss me off and once that happens well... it's on.

I don't start the shit, I end it.

But in a normal day I do the decent thing for people, regardless of what I may or may not get back when I die.

Anyone that does "good" in the hope of getting something in return is likely in for a world of hurt when their life ends (assuming there is a Supreme Being)

How is the Supreme Being gonna judge that kind of dude?

In a word: Harshly!

I believe that God does not endorse organised religion, which is used by stupid fucking men to put themselves into a position of power which they will eventually abuse.

Man as a creature is a petty, arrogant fool. We think we know shit cause we're so fucking great at everything. Yet it wasn't too long ago that people thought the world was flat, that the Sun orbitted around the Earth, that no one could build a plane and fly the fucker, that no man could run 100m in under 10 seconds, there was no way we could send a man into outer space and so on and so forth.

Point to that long ass sentence? We don't know shit!

In 100 years from now things could (will?) be completely fucking different than they are now. Will we know more about a Supreme Being? I'd like to think so but who knows?

We'll never know shit about the supreme being. Heck, when the Jews pirated other mythologies and then added it to their own to create the Big Story, the supreme being was fooling around with shit all the time. Then all the sudden, shit gets put down in writing, people start talking, the lame start walking, they nail the one nice guy in the world to a tree, and POOF! SHE disappears. It's been over 2000 years now. People still go up to mountain tops, people walk around shouting "we're in the end times", famine, wars, pestilence, destruction and death keep happening--and yet the supreme being remains silent.
But OH! Satan gets to have a whole lot of fun running around fucking things up and talking to people, making them do all kinds of bad stuff. It's kind of unfair if you axe me.

I recognize that there are some people in the world who can't envision a reason for good behavior without the existence of God and His judgment. That's fine, and it's absolutely not a barrier to whether or not I can be friends with someone.

But beliefs do have consequences. (Of course the Buddhist has to say something about consequences.) Consider the fact that you, as a child, were taught to behave yourself because you were warned there would be punishment. After a while, when you were a teenager, you learned that there was honestly very little a parent could do to meaningfully punish you. Spankings came and went. Santa Claus came and went. You lost your allowance, but you got your own paycheck. You still continued not to steal, rape, or murder. Why? Because you developed a more subtle understanding of morality - that it was about the choices you made, and the implications those choices had for everyone, not just you.

But when you hang all of your morality on God, you're actually taking that sense of choice away. It's automatic. You want the reward and not the punishment, so you don't steal, rape or murder. It's a way to keep you from misbehaving, and that's good, but it's not morality. It's obedience. Some point down the road, you may be in a difficult situation that requires a choice, involving things that the Bible doesn't explicitly talk about, and obedience is not going to be much help.

Then there is the "fundamental" basis of belief in God. To believers, it is all about a basis for good behavior. Therefore there are those who believe in God, and those who don't, and those who don't have no solid basis for good behavior. It divides the world into two types of people and it creates a conflict between those who believe and those who don't. That conflict is irreducible. It cannot be minimized. If the morality of non-believers can not be trusted, then believers and non-believers cannot really come to a firm understanding between them about moral issues. That hasn't been an issue in most of the world throughout history, because almost everyone in the world has believed in God. But this is no longer the case in Europe or southeast Asia, and the numbers of Americans who don't believe in God have shot up in the last 20 years from 3% to at least 15%, according to the latest Pew study. I hope that this conflict is not irreducible, and that a sense of morality can be shared between believers and non-believers, or else this world is in for terrible times.

As for the design issue, I see the universe as being generally indifferent to our existence, and that would probably not be the case if there was design at hand. We've seen entire worlds wiped out by collision and destruction. We've seen our species beset by things like Bubonic Plague and influenza that have nearly wiped us out. There are infectious agents lurking in dark places that are poorly understood or even unknown to us. Our technology has finally reached a point where we can eliminate ourselves. The chances of survival for all beings approaches zero as we age, and there is no reason to believe that the same couldn't be true for the species as a whole. Instead of looking at it as if the world seems amazingly suited to the existence of humans, I think it's probably more correct to look at it as if we are the inevitable results of the way our world has developed, so of course our environment suits us.

I'm sorry this went on for so long, it just really got me thinking.

So, who's more powerful -- Goku or Superman?

Swami:

The conflict is irreducible (Or not, depending on whichever is worse. I'm not good at double-negative chaos math like Jeff Goldblum). The people that believe in god are always more dangerous because they always find some divine blessing for killing. And they are fucking dumb.

And why is it that people, mankind, supposedly the highest life form, need some invisible pie in the sky to tell them to be good or they'll have to sit in the corner for eternity?

And I'm with George Carlin--I STILL want to know what happened to all the poor saps who ate meat on Friday when it was still a sin. Are they still out of luck? George now knows--but he ain't talkin'

I guess I should have explained myself better. My point was that I do good things because I feel like god blessed me with the gifts to do good things. Some people are much worse off than me, and I feel like god put me in a position to help those people.

Someone was talking about how we were basically accidents and not planned by a higher being or anything. If you feel that way, you do not feel like you were blessed with the ability to reason, etc...then what is the purpose of those abilities?

I didn't mean that non-religeous people are not good. I simply meant that I'd hate to feel that the gifts I receive were simply random and that there wasn't a purpose to them.

Also, I got a little defensive when people were saying those who believed in God are ignorant and are some of the worst people they have ever met.

I don't have a problem with people believing or not believing. I don't think either "side" is really wrong. They just feel differently is all.

Purpose isn't a consideration Chris. It's like when someone asks me "If you are an athiest, what do you believe in?" I don't sit around contemplating what to believe or why or reason, I simply am what it is I am. I happen to be a very fortunate person, and it's rewarding to share what you would call blessings with others. No reason, just because.

well, I doubt there are many religious people who believe they should be nice because it gets them into heaven. If you actually believe that, you aren't really living gods message at all. giving with the expectation of receiving is not really giving at all.

People who do something with strings attached are probably not true Christians (I'm sure it's the same in most religions). Good people do good things just because like you said. People who do something nice to get into heaven believe in heaven just in case.

Protestants believe in salvation through faith alone but Catholics believe works are also necessary for entrance into heaven.

I'm Catholic but don't really believe what they preach sometimes. I am pro-choice, for gay rights, democratic and I feel a priest should be allowed to marry. I think sometimes people just listen to what their church says and just believe it. You have to follow your own heart. I think everyone takes something different out of what is preached to them.

Why are you Catholic, then? Why not be, say, a Unitarian? What do you believe that's different than what a Protestant would believe? Is the Catholic God different than the Protestant God?

I guess because I was raised Catholic. To me I don't see a reason to switch because I don't take the preaching as the end all be all. If I did, I would switch because I would be in conflict.

The other part is that it's pretty hard to find a good church. We go to a Catholic Church now that is pretty easy going and doesn't preach those types of things. I already find what I need in their messages.

In a somewhat-literal sense, I think that the devil is in the details.

I guess because I was raised Catholic. To me I don't see a reason to switch because I don't take the preaching as the end all be all. If I did, I would switch because I would be in conflict.

The other part is that it's pretty hard to find a good church. We go to a Catholic Church now that is pretty easy going and doesn't preach those types of things. I already find what I need in their messages.

A good reason to switch would be that you disagree with them on some pretty fucking important points. I can't imagine the cognitive dissonance those issues would cause, and why you'd even consider going there. Holy shit,man, it's one thing to find a nice place that maybe doesn't have all the calisthenics that go with a typical catholic mass--but to justify it by saying you weed out the majority of what they stand for is silly.

Pretty fucking desperate sounding.

Why are you Catholic, then? Why not be, say, a Unitarian? What do you believe that's different than what a Protestant would believe? Is the Catholic God different than the Protestant God?
Unitarian is a pretty drastic change from Catholicism. Unitarians deny the divinity of Jesus which produces a lot of changes in their theology, practices, beliefs as opposed to Catholics and the great majority of Protestants.

Asking if there is a difference between Catholic ideas of God and Protestant ideas of God is a bit difficult because Protestantism is a category of many belief systems. For the most part, (and I am a Protestant so take this with some of salt) the main difference is in the significance the congregations give to the role of the Bible and the church rather than qualities believed of God. Catholics emphasize the role of the church as it was established first (before the Bible) and directly by Jesus (who didn't write anything but did build a church in terms of his followers and believers, plus he says to Paul, literally, that Paul is the rock upon which he, Jesus, has built his church) and the congregational understanding of the Bible (church authority over what the Bible means). Protestants emphasize the role of the Bible as divine authority and the individuals understanding/calling from the Bible with the church being a coming together of those individual understandings (in terms of the role of the Bible and the church).

There are plenty of Protestant denominations who's theological beliefs (beliefs about God) are markedly different than Catholicism, but typically both Catholics and Protestants agree on what each considers the most important issues.

A good reason to switch would be that you disagree with them on some pretty fucking important points. I can't imagine the cognitive dissonance those issues would cause, and why you'd even consider going there. Holy shit,man, it's one thing to find a nice place that maybe doesn't have all the calisthenics that go with a typical catholic mass--but to justify it by saying you weed out the majority of what they stand for is silly.

Pretty fucking desperate sounding.

Well, they don't preach about any of that at my church (like I said). I happen to know that the Catholic Church believes those things though. So I'm not weeding out information during mass or anything. Think of it this way. Say your parents believe marriage is between a man and women only but you feel people should be able to marry whoever they want. You don't decide everything they say is bullshit and find new parents. You realize that they don't push that belief on you and you can simply learn the things you do agree with.

Here is another reason why I don't change. I like to express those opinions to other Catholics in hopes that they too will see my points. Tahoe gets hammered in political threads on here, but he sticks it out because if he gets even one person to agree with him, it makes his time worthwhile. My dad is in fact a republican, and I work on him all the time. I think eventually he will agree with enough of the points I make to change his mind (because I really get no reasons why he hasn't already).

I think I'd be a coward if I simply left the church over a few issues I disagree with. If the teachings were totally against my beliefs, then I agree. But those few issues I disagree with could be changed.

Honestly, I actually respect anyone willing to call himself a Catholic. There are tons of people out there who were raised Catholic and believe in it, but they can't be bothered to go to church for some insipid reason or another, so they stop calling themselves Catholic. It's usually not on principle. It's more like "I don't like getting up on Sunday mornings, and some priest somewhere molested a little boy, so I'm going to use that as a reason to stop getting up on Sunday morning."

Catholics are actually pretty fortunate. They have a strong religious community around them that has something to offer at every step in life. Not many religious people can count on such a supportive community.

This may sound strange to a lot of you. I don't care. I just know that anyone who is willing to come and help a dying person achieve peace of mind through prayer and meditation is doing good work, and that's something that both Catholic priests and Buddhist monks do.

Also rabbis.

Chris--that's dumb. I can choose a church, I can't choose my parents.

Also rabbis.
I am (was?) Jewish and I never heard of such a thing.

Hmm, come to think of it, Shiva and the other death rituals in Judaism that I can think of center on the bereaved rather than the dead or dying. It's not a rabbinical duty to visit the sick or dying?

Swami:

Man, once you are in the Club, you are in the Club. I think the Jewish mythology has given us a great look into their sense of humor with the god they created. Ironic, crotchety, jealous, mean, kill 'em all if they won't listen to ya, sell 'em into slavery to teach 'em a lesson every now and then, give 'em permission to go on rampant killing sprees when they get a bit frustrated, make 'em wander around the dessert for 40 years, go down to Earf yourself and let 'em kill ya, put 'em in a paradise and tell them there's ONE THING they can't do (but it's really fucking beautiful and how can they resist? Talking snakes and apples...man, most of that shit is fucking hilarious. I'll tell ya something: good ol' Jewish rabbis are some of the funniest people you will ever meet. I mean, look at those sideburns!

A lot of that isn't in the Jewish Bible, player.

You guys lost my dumbass about 10 posts ago.

Not too shy to admit that when it comes to deep and meaningful discussions on different religions I am lost.

Still interested, even though you guys are now discussing the ins and outs of several different religions.

Swami - is it possible that the Supreme Being resides within us?

Swami - is it possible that the Supreme Being resides within us?
From the Buddhist perspective? Absolutely. Any human can achieve the highest Enlightenment in this life with enough hard work and dedication.

It's not particularly likely for the vast majority of us, though. For the rest of us, it's going to take many, many lifetimes, so instead we just work on being the best people we can be. Serious work, though.

Buddhism is about knowing that inside each of us is an Enlightened being. That being is crusted over with lifetimes of greed, hatred, and delusion. The goal is not to become something greater than we are, but to become something less than we are. Start throwing away those things that aren't doing you any good. Chisel away at the cigarettes and the booze and the racism and the fear and the laziness and the one-night stands and the titty bars and the fights and the swearing and the gossip and the weapons and the stealing and the cruelty, and eventually, all you're left with is the Supreme Being.

A lot of that isn't in the Jewish Bible, player.
Are you referring to the Talmud or the Old Testament?

I'm not going to get too into this because there is nothing more pointless than an argument about religion, but I will share a couple brief thoughts:

I believe in a Supreme Being. In the most simplistic sense: I don't believe that everything is just coincidence. I don't believe that endless space was just an accident. I don't believe the gift of life is just chance. The beauty of this world and outside of this world is too perfect too perfect to be accidental.

I believe in free will and don't believe in fate. I think the struggles that we face on Earth will someday be considered pointless. I think our job is to do the best we can in our time on Earth and then enjoy ourselves in Heaven.

I believe that religious people can be arrogant and evil. When religious people start preaching to you and judging you, I think that does against what the message is. It drives people away, and that's exactly the opposite of what Christianity was founded upon.

I believe non-religious people can be arrogant and evil. When people make fun of you for having a different belief than you, it's just as bad as religious zealots. Either way you look at it, there's no proof. Both sides pretend there's proof - but there's not. I think that mean people are going to be mean, regardless if there a person of faith or not. Wars are started over religion, but if there was no religion, those wars would have been started over something different. To fight over beliefs is the stupidest thing in the world.

Finally, someone mentioned that they get mad when religious people try and explain everything in science with God. The way I see it, not everything can be explained by religion or science. We, as humans, aren't that smart. Just because we're the smartest beings on Earth doesn't make us all-knowing. But we are proud. And we think that we should be able to explain everything and if we cannot, then we get frustrated by it. I don't understand how everything works, but I'm okay with that. It makes me uncomfortable from time to time, but I'm okay with it.

But as I stated earlier, getting mad and arguing about other people's beliefs is pathetic. If everyone just believed in what they wanted and let everyone else alone, it would be fine. I won't explain my beliefs to anyone unless they ask my beliefs. Standing up in my wedding: An Agnostic, a Muslim, a Catholic, a Baptist and a non-denominational Christian. Beliefs aren't bad until you start fighting over them.

That's about all I got. I'm sure there's plenty of things in my post that some of you will love to tear apart.

(That was a much longer post than I intended)

Are you referring to the Talmud or the Old Testament?

The Old Testament (only in the Jewish order), but neither contains the stuff about Jesus.

The Old Testament (only in the Jewish order), but neither contains the stuff about Jesus.

No shit, but you said "alot" of that stuff wasn't in the Jewish bible--all of it was except the Jesus stuff. But Jesus was allegedly Jewish and allegedly hinted at throughout the Old Testament.

Jews certainly don't think Jesus was hinted at in the Old Testament. As for the "lot", you are correct. Originally I thought you started talking about Jesus as the "one path to heaven" when you actually started talking about the Tree of Knowledge. In my defense, I usually don't read even that much of your posts.

As a side note, I think it's very probable that Jesus never existed, and that the Christian religion was created for political purposes. It doesn't matter though. It still contains really beautiful stuff.

Unitarian is a pretty drastic change from Catholicism. Unitarians deny the divinity of Jesus which produces a lot of changes in their theology, practices, beliefs as opposed to Catholics and the great majority of Protestants.

Asking if there is a difference between Catholic ideas of God and Protestant ideas of God is a bit difficult...
To be clear, my question was mostly for WTFchris to chew on -- what makes HIM a Catholic vs. a nominal Christian? It wasn't intended to be an exercise in comparative religion... was just trying to phrase it in some different ways.

For most, it's part of the society they grew up in, and isn't an active choice. Some dude dunks you in water at a Protestant church before you remember, you're taught the Lord's Prayer with "For Thine Is The Kingdom..." and poof, you're a Protestant. Some really get into it, while for many others, that's the extent of their "religiousility".

I think a large percentage of religious people are essentially praying to the same "God" with a different name, and reading a different book about him. Just look at how many religious figureheads were supposedly born on Dec 25th. If there is a supreme being, he probably understands that depending on what part of the world you were born in you give him a different name, and he won't hold it against you just because you were born on the wrong continent.

To be clear, my question was mostly for WTFchris to chew on -- what makes HIM a Catholic vs. a nominal Christian? It wasn't intended to be an exercise in comparative religion... was just trying to phrase it in some different ways.

For most, it's part of the society they grew up in, and isn't an active choice. Some dude dunks you in water at a Protestant church before you remember, you're taught the Lord's Prayer with "For Thine Is The Kingdom..." and poof, you're a Protestant. Some really get into it, while for many others, that's the extent of their "religiousility".

Maybe I'm an idiot, but I don't know what you mean by nominal Christian. I have only been to Catholic and Methodist (friend's church growing up) Church before. I know about the Mormon church (my brother's old GF was such). Otherwise I couldn't tell you the difference between Catholic and other churches.

Maybe I'm an idiot, but I don't know what you mean by nominal Christian. I have only been to Catholic and Methodist (friend's church growing up) Church before. I know about the Mormon church (my brother's old GF was such). Otherwise I couldn't tell you the difference between Catholic and other churches.
The Catholic church is a huge institution, and (according to its own way of looking at things) it is older than the Bible. Therefore, the Bible is still pretty important, but the catechism of the Church is more so. Simply put, the Catholics teach that the Bible is a part of Christianity but it's not the whole shebang. Catholic countries are pretty much all of southern Europe and all of Latin America.

The Orthodox churches were once a part of the Catholic church, but they split off in the early middle ages because they didn't agree that the bishop of Rome (i.e. the Pope) should be the leader of the entire church. Since then, history has split them even more over issues of doctrine and ritual, but even now they don't have a unified structure with one single leader like the Catholics do. Orthodox groups include Greeks, Russians, Armenians, Syrian Christians, Egyptian Christians, Serbians, etc. If you've a Christian, and you've got a unibrow, you're probably Orthodox.

The Protestants split off in the late middle ages, but for a different reason - they believed that the Catholic church had become corrupt, it had lost its moral authority and diverged from the core message of Jesus. They were basically religious purists who thought that the Catholic church had diluted Christianity. So they broke off and decided that the only way to really be good Christians was to pore over every tiny detail of the Bible, and interpret it as literally as they could. Protestants include Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and many other denominations. They emphasize the Bible as the utmost authority on everything. Generally Protestants come from northern Europe - countries like Denmark, the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway and England, but they also convert large numbers of people in 3rd world countries too.

The Church of England is a different story altogether. They split from the Roman Catholic church a long time ago, but only about a political issue. Since then, they've been influenced heavily by Protestant doctrines. They consider themselves both Catholic and Protestant at the same time, and they've been working for hundreds of years toward reconciling their church with the Pope. The Anglicans and Episcopalians are both part of the same group.

Mormons are a uniquely American religion, and it's hard to say conclusively whether or not they are really strictly Christians at all. They consider themselves to be, but their beliefs are very strange to the ears of most other Christians.

What group you belong to is usually a matter of what nationality your parents were, not what your beliefs are. But at least you can see how it all got started.

I think a large percentage of religious people are essentially praying to the same "God" with a different name, and reading a different book about him. Just look at how many religious figureheads were supposedly born on Dec 25th. If there is a supreme being, he probably understands that depending on what part of the world you were born in you give him a different name, and he won't hold it against you just because you were born on the wrong continent.

That's all well and good, but does the supreme being understand why those who "read a different book" don't seem at all averse to killing the shit out of each other in his name?

The problem with the "different book" theory is that if there is one "supreme being"--he has GOT to have one message and one message only--but we really do not, nor seem to want to, know what it is. Ultimately, in my opinion, that is THE problem with people who don't just believe in god, but feel the need to have big books read to them by people who take that shit and spout their BS as gospel interpretations--they ACT on the shit, pass on the lies and the interpretations, and forcefeed their own demonspawn this crap, which exponentially grows this crap enough that you WILL have enough misguided zealots to completely fuck life up for EVERYONE else. And it is all based on a being and a practice (worship and faith) that should do nothing but bring people together and give them hope.

That's all well and good, but does the supreme being understand why those who "read a different book" don't seem at all averse to killing the shit out of each other in his name?

The problem with the "different book" theory is that if there is one "supreme being"--he has GOT to have one message and one message only--but we really do not, nor seem to want to, know what it is. Ultimately, in my opinion, that is THE problem with people who don't just believe in god, but feel the need to have big books read to them by people who take that shit and spout their BS as gospel interpretations--they ACT on the shit, pass on the lies and the interpretations, and forcefeed their own demonspawn this crap, which exponentially grows this crap enough that you WILL have enough misguided zealots to completely fuck life up for EVERYONE else. And it is all based on a being and a practice (worship and faith) that should do nothing but bring people together and give them hope.

There are crazy people in every religion who kill in their "God's" name. Obviously, they have misread the message. Whether we're talking about Christians, Muslims, whatever, the majority do get the right message from their preferred book.

Maybe I'm an idiot, but I don't know what you mean by nominal Christian. I have only been to Catholic and Methodist (friend's church growing up) Church before. I know about the Mormon church (my brother's old GF was such). Otherwise I couldn't tell you the difference between Catholic and other churches.
Nominal means "in name only".

There's lots of folks who I'd class as vaguely Christian. They say they believe in a God and Jesus mostly to shut up whoever asks the question, but otherwise don't really think about faith at all.

Nominal means "in name only".

There's lots of folks who I'd class as vaguely Christian. They say they believe in a God and Jesus mostly to shut up whoever asks the question, but otherwise don't really think about faith at all.

I'd say that is about 80% of christians. And I include the fucks who go to church just to say they go in that group.

Zip is who I would go to if I wanted to get the pulse of Christianity.

Belief in a supreme being is a lot like the appendix. There might have been a time in the past when it was a critical survival tool but now just a vestigial notion you can remove and never miss it. And like the appendix, the fact that it remains means it can get inflamed and cause death.

Now tell them how geometry+bridges = no god.

Zip is who I would go to if I wanted to get the pulse of Christianity. Although, I wouldn't know, because I don't read his posts, even though I respond to all of them. I'm a homo.

Now tell them how geometry+bridges = no god.

If explanations have to be made, I'm pretty sure the burden falls on the people who actually believe there's an invisible man in the sky.

December 25th has nothing to do with the birth of any person, prophet or being.

It's a Pagan (sp?) thing for ... I forget - you guys should look it up (cause I'm lazy but will remember tomorrow).

And LMAO @ all those religions that choose to focus on what the Bible says. Old dudes in Rome put that shit together to make peace. It's fucking fact. It can't be disputed.

If you wanna believe in a Supreme Being (and I do) then forget about some fucking stupid book that in all honesty could be the greatest thing ever if you believe in UFO's.

If explanations have to be made, I'm pretty sure the burden falls on the people who actually believe there's an invisible man in the sky.

You don't remember the geometry + bridges = no god conversation?

You don't remember the geometry + bridges = no god conversation?

I remember it. That was the one where you went devil's advocate in support of creationism.

I wouldn't characterize it that way, but to each his own.