I'm kinda wondering how the timeline of Joe's activity will go, and I'm willing to take the chance of looking like a id10t here.

My uninformed opinion is that he will:

First
Either trade or draft #15

Then
Sign his free agents

Then
Make some trades, bringing in additional salary

Does that jive with what you guys think?

Basically, if he's got prime FA targets that he wants to spend on, trading #15 clears more room for them. Once he signs his FA's and gets up to the cap number, he can then make some trades and take on the extra 25% of salaries all the way up to the tax threshold (if he's got permission from Mama Davidson, that is).

I'm wondering if that will be the correct order of things, because if trades come first, it's going to eat into the cap space, and then he can only go up to the cap # to sign any FA's. In other words, doing them in reverse order hurts his flexibility, right?

Thoughts?

Am I a dumbass?

Wait, don't answer that.

Yeah that sounds right, unless one of his trades involves taking back less money. Then he would pull it off before signing anyone (at the draft or after I'd guess).

You are correct Glenn, that is the ideal scenario.

Key Dates:

June 25th - Draft
June 30th - Deadline to exercise options
July 1st - Free agency begins
July 8th - Teams can sign free agents

I think he needs to make trades before signing free agents, especially if they involve RIP or Tay for a big. How do you convince a free agent wing to come here when he'll be a backup?

That week (July 1-8) will be a key time for that when you know who's opting and before anyone can sign a contract. That is when you try for Amare, Bosh, Kamen, etc. At the same time you take visits from everyone you are interested in. A trade for Amare or Bosh could really sell another FA on Detroit too.

100% Disagree Chris.

You convince your wing (Hedo for you, Gordon for me) by:

1) paying him a big fucking salary
2) selling him on the franchise and it's history/commitment to winning
3) Coach (LMAO)
4) Team mates
5) Location (LMAO)

Being "reduced" to a bench player would hurt a player's pride, but $9 million per salves a lot of hurt.

GD - Ideally we would trade our pick (and Amir) on Draft Day for a future first. That gives us a lot more cap space.

Then we go sign who we want.

Then we make the big trade.

Really, from Draft Day through to July 7th (11:59pm) you are organising your moves and the sequence of them. For example if we brokered a Bosh deal during that week we wouldn't do it!

It would be agreed to "in principle" and not finalised because we'd be sending them at least one of our un-signed draft picks.

So, when that clock strikes midnight we fucking pounce, renouncing our free agents and then signing others. Then we sign our picks (going over the cap to do so). Then we finalise the Toronto trade (going over the cap some more)

It's also in Toronto's best interest for everything to be done quickly, so they can renounce their own free agents and use the cap space we helped create for them.

Long story short - you were right, dumbass

I think if you're trading Rip or Tay, you would want to trade them before you signed their replacement (assuming you don't replace them in a trade). If you sign Ben Gordon, Rip's trade value is going way down because teams know you have to deal him. If you keep him after signing Gordon then you have to send one of them to the bench. Gordon won't want to sign here if he's stuck in a bench role. He views himself as a starter and that's what's important to him, per the stories last time he was a FA and toward the end of the season.

If you're doing a trade like a 2nd rounder for a player, or an exipring contract for a guy that's making quite a bit more, you'd have to do that trade before you use up your cap space as well. For example, if you wanted to trade a 2nd rounder for Haywood, you'd have to do that while you still have the cap space. Or if you're trading someone like Amir or Afflalo for a contract like Hinrich.

Otherwise, if you know that any trades you're making will fit that 125% rule, then you wait on them until you've used up as much cap space as you can.

Great point. Even if you tell Gordon you're going to move RIP, you still are ruining your trade value for RIP. Teams will know you're trying to trade him and RIP might start bitching and demand a trade anyway. You'd completely screw your chances of better value if you signed Gordon first.

I don't think signing a big man before trades is a negative though. Everyone already knows Sheed is gone and Max/Amir are more or less role players. We wouldn't be damaging anyone's value there.

You're not ruining any trade value if the deal is already agreed to "in principle" before you sign Gordon.

Look, you guys are taking each move as a single deal, like teams evalute it on a per-deal basis.

I think many teams look to use that "week off" to get all their shit together and once the clock strikes it's Boom!, Boom! Boom! Done!

If you are trading Rip or Tay AFTER signing their replacement the team that is dealing for them must be satisfied they are getting a good deal, too right? Otherwise the trade wouldn't be happening in the first place.

So, let's use New Orleans and David West as an example:

If we use most of our cap space (signing Gordon in the process) and then do a Rip + Amir for West, Mo Pete and Daniels deal why would they balk at taking Rip?

Has Rip's value to them decreased? They're doing the deal to get $$$ off the tax/payroll while gaining an All-Star calibre SG. They don't give a fuck what we're doing. I seriously doubt they'd back out and say "Rip's trade value has taken a hit, cause you signed Gordon."

And if they do back out who loses? We got Stuckey, Rip and Gordon in the backcourt - handly shit. With Bynum and AA there too.

Up front we'd suffer a bit, but that's hardly new either.

Minutes would be hard to come by for some, but there are always other trades and other teams who aren't fucking stupid and know that Rip is All-Star calibre and is locked in to a reasonable contract.

It's still likely we'll see a draft day deal... #15 + small contract for larger salary... nobody wants to go through a PC, have the kid spew his love for the new team then ship his ass out in a week.

Joe may not want to sign a single F.A. (weak class) and elect to use all the space in trades.

Just realized we can't do any lopsided trades until we renounce our F.A.s

We could do that (15 + small contract for Large contract) after we renounce everyone.

A draft day deal is still likely though - we could just trade picks.

most of those guys will be renounced right away anyway. no reason to keep AI or Sheed on the roster unless you think someone wants to do a S&T. I don't think there will be a huge demand for that, and Joe can feel those few possibilities out before then anyway.

P, I meant that the player would lose value if we didn't have a deal already in place.

We sign Gordon without having a deal in place for Rip.
Teams know that we have to trade Rip because we can't keep Rip, Stuckey, and Gordon. Gordon would sign knowing he is a starter, Rip wouldn't move to the bench (that experiment failed miserably last year), and teams would know that we're trying to move Rip. Once teams know that you're trying to move someone, they don't want to offer you as much in return.

For example, the NFL (first one that comes to mind), everyone knew that the Raiders were looking to deal Randy Moss, so no one wanted to give up anything substantial for him. The Pats got him for a 4th round pick or something like that. His value dropped because everyone knew the Raiders were looking to trade him.

And because he was a fuckup.

Bad example, methinks.

NFL is a bad example in general though (unless you are talking QB or RB) because you could get a replacement for almost any other position and still play him next to the guy he's replacing (or at least people could see it that way). Drafting CJ didn't ruin Roy Williams' value for example, but if you drafted a QB #1 it would be a different story.

In the NBA, anytime you bring in a starting player you are replacing another starter.

I agree it's fine if you have a trade worked out in principle though, but most of those end up public anyway.

I couldn't think of any NBA examples off the top of my head. That situation just comes about so infrequently. Most teams know not to replace a guy while he's still on the roster.

First
Either trade or draft #15

Then
Sign his free agents


Don't go out on a limb or anything.

Of course you'd have the deal agreed to before signing Gordon.

There's a whole week to get shit done before you can actually make anything official.

Once the clock hits midnight you start rolling out the press releases.

1) Renounced all fuckheads
2) Signed Gordon for 5 years, $however much it works out
3) Spent rest of cap room
4) Trade Rip and shit for Big & Rich (better than Big & Shit)

It all won't be released the first day, but gradually over a week or so.

That doesn't mean that all our shit couldn't be agreed to in principle during that off week.

1) Renounced all fuckheads.

Ha Ha Ha... dems funny!

I haven't been around for awhile, but in this gap of time did Ben Gordon stop being a 1 dimensional ass suck?

No. P and Chris just seem to love him.

I haven't been around for awhile, but in this gap of time did Ben Gordon stop being a 1 dimensional ass suck?

Seems like it's been since January 25th or so.

No. P and Chris just seem to love him.

Uh, what? I was the one saying he wouldn't fit with Stuckey well. Go back and read them.

You have trade threads where you base your team around him. Let's not pretend you don't think he should be on the team.

I haven't been around for awhile, but in this gap of time did Ben Gordon stop being a 1 dimensional ass suck?

No he did not, and I still don't want him on the team.

I haven't been around for awhile, but in this gap of time did Ben Gordon stop being a 1 dimensional ass suck?
:cogent:

WWID?

What would Isaiah do?

OOPS! Wrong CBA. Sorry.

In Chris' defense I believe that trade you spoke of Fool was him ever so slightly changing my entire plan that included Gordon.

I'm willing to declare myself a Gordon "fan". Dude can nail a 3, handle the ball a bit, score the rock, is young and I doubt Chicago consider him priority #1 this off-season.

Gordon ticks a lot of the boxes Joe has stated he's looking for. Unless Joe has done a backflip on his presser I can't see any other free agent hitting so many marks in the one package.

If listening to our GM makes me a moron then so be it. I can't be blamed if/when the GM goes against what he said on the record.

P you asked me to poke wholes in your team when I was criticizing Chris' team a while back and I don't think I got around to it. From what I recall, I didn't see much of a difference in the two teams to really change anything I originally said about Chris'.

Didn't mean to ignore you like that.

In Chris' defense I believe that trade you spoke of Fool was him ever so slightly changing my entire plan that included Gordon.

I'm willing to declare myself a Gordon "fan". Dude can nail a 3, handle the ball a bit, score the rock, is young and I doubt Chicago consider him priority #1 this off-season.

Gordon ticks a lot of the boxes Joe has stated he's looking for. Unless Joe has done a backflip on his presser I can't see any other free agent hitting so many marks in the one package.

If listening to our GM makes me a moron then so be it. I can't be blamed if/when the GM goes against what he said on the record.

P is correct. I was simply tweaking his trade idea. I've said it many times on here, I would prefer Hedo over Gordon (I just think he fits better with Stuckey). That would of course require some changes on the wings, but I was planning on moving RIP/Tay for big men anyway.

It's all good Fool.

I forgot about my "Research" thread the minute Kapono got traded.

Is there a winner in this som bitchin thread? Cuz there should be, damn it!

First
Either trade or draft #15

Then
Fire idiot coach, hire replacement

Then
Sign his free agents

Then
Make some trades, bringing in additional salary


Offseason v. 1.1