Idea 1

Trade Tay/#15 to OKC for Green

Trade Amir to CHI for Hinrich

We're left with:
Hinrich
Stuckey
Green
??
??

Rip and Kwame's potential expiring deal as our big trading pieces. What do we do with them?



Idea 2 - Even less likely

Trade Rip/#15 to OKC for Green

Afflalo/2nd to CHI for Hinrich

Prince/Amir/2nd/Future 1st to TOR for Bosh/Filler of their choice
Filler = Kapono 2yr/$12.8mil, Banks 2yr/$9mil, or Humphries 2yr/$6.4mil
Humphries could replace Amir as PF depth, Kapono could help fill the backup SF spot, Banks wouldn't really do much for us but I'd take him if it got us Bosh

Leaves us with:
Hinrich
Stuckey
Green
Bosh
Kwame (if he opts in)

We'd still have some room to go after a C and some bench depth because we lost cap space getting Hinrich but we gained it all back in the Rip trade.

Thoughts on what we could do to finish off either of these? Can we get a guy like Haywood or Chandler for a 2nd? Do we have the pieces to pry away Biedrins?

Tell me again why we trade Tay and #15 for Green?

Build with youth. We won't be back in the conference finals right away, but in a couple years we could be contenders again. This is more of a total rebuild idea. Stuckey is our one young piece that Joe seems to want to build around. Trading Tay for Green gives us another young up-and-coming piece to build around.

Just throwing things around for fun really. The likelihood of any of these trades happening, let alone all of them, is slim to none.

We'll take Tayshaun for that shitbag Adam Morrison and our 2nd round pick

Part of me thinks that Tay might be a candidate for a trade because Joe might feel that he's got a lot of miles on him and he might be ready to start breaking down.

That's just speculation on my part.

I think the trade target is clearly on Rip. Partially because of his post-Chauncey, post-benching attitude, partially because of his contract and partially to make more room for Stuckey to play the 2.

Build with youth. We won't be back in the conference finals right away, but in a couple years we could be contenders again. This is more of a total rebuild idea. Stuckey is our one young piece that Joe seems to want to build around. Trading Tay for Green gives us another young up-and-coming piece to build around.

Just throwing things around for fun really. The likelihood of any of these trades happening, let alone all of them, is slim to none.

I just see that as overpaying. I don't have a problem with getting a younger SF (Outlaw, Green, Williams), but Tay and a pick might fetch us a solid post player.

You're trading our best assets to acquire a PG (Hinrich) and a SF (Green)?

What about the frontcourt?

FWIW I would be inclined to trade both Rip and Prince for reasons many have mentioned. Neither is great at creating their own shot. Neither is a great 3 point shooter. And both have a lot of miles on those tyres.

I'd prefer we trade them for bigs, or trade 1 of them for a big where we take back salary (Bosh/Amare/David West) but it doesn't have to be that way.

I don't think too many people are gonna like your idea Z, but maybe if you finish it off and show who you could add to help us up front people might come around.

Zekyl, the way I look at it, if there was a top level big that anyone would trade us for the expirings, they would much rather do it now while they can just lose the cap number now entirely and not take back anything. Gotta agree with Pharoah that we have to start big and fill in the pieces.

P, I do agree with you. I was just hoping that this could start something and someone could take what I did and work it to bring us some big men.

In the first idea, we have more cap space than we started with and could still move Rip or Kwame for a big man. Rip if they wanted to get talent back, Kwame's expiring if they just wanted to dump salary.

In the 2nd, we get Bosh in the deal and we'd still have cap room to go after a C via trade or FA.

Its a start, but nothing substantial or special.

Well finish it dude.

In deal 1 we have more cap space than we did before the trade - so use it. You know the usual suspects (Millsap, Boozer, Hedo, Gordon, Ariza, Birdman). Take a look at the free agent thread and find some depth guys or other dudes you wouldn't mind seeing in the Red, White and Blue.

In deal 2 you now have your big (Bosh) so go use your space on other players and round out that unit.

It's not like anyone else on this site is a genius. Take my Birdman, Bosh, Ariza, Gordon, Stuckey plan that Atti and Chris approved.

I dealt both Tay and Rip in the one package (which I said no one had thought of)! BAMM! I'm a genius, right?

Wrong, cause I did it to get Bosh - every single one of us wanna get Bosh in a deal. I just posted one that people haven't poked a million holes through yet (the regular "they wouldn't accept that" is out cause I gave them Rip AND Tay!)

Next I followed Glenn's advice and signed Ariza. A lot of dudes are probably thinking we should sign him. Glenn is just the guy I remember who mentioned it earlier than most (can't say he was first cause I don't know for sure)

Then I decided to sign Gordon - again, a player we have discussed a lot over the past month.

There is no genius involved Z. It's a combination of this guy's idea with that guy's theory added to my "way" of building "my" kind of team.

I think that Birdman, Bosh, Ariza, Gordon, Stuckey team is about as close as I will ever come to putting together my kind of team on paper. Every time it comes up in discussion I find it difficult to explain why I would have "my" team the way I'd have it but now you guys can see what type/kind of team I would build if I was a GM.

If it's a contender or not is up for debate - but that is always how I would have my team. It's not as hard-nosed as I'd like it to be (bench would need another enforcer unless AA is gonna do it) but it's close.

So finish your idea off Z. Crunch the numbers and work out how much you have to spend.

If you could get Lee instead of Birdman, I think that's about the only way you could improve that team P.

I like Birdman, but I think he's better as a 25 MPG player. Lee can give you 30 minutes of solid play.

I don't see any way to add Lee instead of Birdman, Chris.

I suppose I could have traded Kwame to NY and done a sign and trade (Kwame + what I gave Birdman = Lee's salary) but then who is my bench C?

I think with what I have I have enough to do well at that spot with Birdman, Bosh and Brown (BBB - Mason would love it!!!)

Besides, you can't create the perfect team in 1 off-season. You add the pieces you can at the time and as long as you don't overpay for your role players you'll be OK.

I haven;t named my Drfat picks - maybe I drafted Mullens at #15? I guess I could do the Lee for Kwame S&T and have Mullens be the bench C...

Nah - too "perfect".

Anyway, we really shouldn't be discussing that team in this thread.

This is Z's place to play. I wanna see him complete it.

Not sure I'd want Lee over Anderson. You have a shit ton of scorers already with Stuck, Gordon, and Bosh, I'd rather have the defensive intimidation.

Just not a fan of starting Ariza though....just not a fan. Nothing personal, just he'd be the 28th or so best starting 3 in the league.

Not sure I'd want Lee over Anderson. You have a shit ton of scorers already with Stuck, Gordon, and Bosh, I'd rather have the defensive intimidation.

Why can't you have both? Anderson would be a FA signing so he costs you nothing.

I can't remember what P traded exactly. Can you repost your exact trades (they may have been in another thread)?

We might be able to get Lee for Amir and some second rounders (if they really want to save money).

I'll try and piece it together (with my Lee idea added)...

RIP (11.4 mil), Tay (10.3 mil), Max (5 mil) for Bosh (15.8 mil), Kapono (6.2 mil)

That gives us another 4.7 mil in space. (#15 can be included if need be)

Kwame, Amir and second rounders for Lee (S&T for 10 mil).

That adds 4.1 mil in salary, which brings us to a net gain of 0.6 mil in space.

Sign Gordon at 10 mil

Sign Ariza at 6 mil

Sign Anderson at 6 mil

That takes us to 55 mil in total salary. That leaves 4 mil to bring back Dice for a year or two. All picks are gone in Bosh and Lee trades.

As I mentioned I'd bring Gordon off the bench for instant offense (he'd still get his 33 MPG).

PG Stuckey/Bynum
SG Kapono/Gordon
SF Ariza/Kapono
PF Bosh/Dice
C Lee/Anderson

Hermy - my deals are posted in my Research/Question thread. I would appreciate it if you poked holes through those deals and signings.

And I had Ariza signed as a free agent for $5 mil.

If you can find a better starting SF at that price or less then please let me know. I thought of Childress and Ariza and thought Ariza was the better of the 2.

OK, here comes the Fingerpoke of Doom!


RIP (11.4 mil), Tay (10.3 mil), Max (5 mil) for Bosh (15.8 mil), Kapono (6.2 mil)

That gives us another 4.7 mil in space. (#15 can be included if need be)

Why do they take Maxiell? IMO they'll wanna dump shitty contracts in a Bosh deal, not take one back. But I'll cut you some slack...


Kwame, Amir and second rounders for Lee (S&T for 10 mil).

That adds 4.1 mil in salary, which brings us to a net gain of 0.6 mil in space.


Lee gets a starting salary of $10 mil? That's, like, WOW! And since Kwame and Amir = more than $7 mil in salary you actually only spend an extra $3 mil in space...

So you still have our $18 mil, plus $1.7 mil left from the Bosh deal



Sign Gordon at 10 mil

Sign Ariza at 6 mil

Sign Anderson at 6 mil


You run out of cash before signing Anderson.

We start with $18 mil (or $20 mil if you traded #15)

You then scored an extra $4.7 mil from Toronto. We got 22.7 mil (24.7 mil)

You then took back an extra $3 mil in the Lee deal. 19.7 mil (21.7)

You then sign Gordon ($10 mil! WOW!) Ariza (6) and Anderson (6)

You are over by $300,000 at a minimum.

Or did I fuck up somewhere?

You could start Birdman at $5.5 mil and it works though.

PG Stuckey/Bynum
SG Kapono/Gordon
SF Ariza/Kapono
PF Bosh/Dice
C Lee/Anderson

No picks and no players making more than the minimum past that 10 though. No extra big in case shit happens, no extra guard NOTHING!

I didn't start with our "cap space" figure because I think that is taking draft picks into account as well (which I traded away). It's more accurate to take our total salary, subtract the outgoings and add the in comings. When I did that we had enough space. I'm not saying I would sign each of those guys for that amount, but I was leaving a cushion in there so the plan had some room in case it did take a little more for a guy.

Pharoah, if the Pistons trot out that lineup, and lose because of injuries I am fine with it. After the Boston trade that netted them the big 3 everyone said they had no depth. Depth will come via veteran free agents or diamonds in the rough (bynum).

That doesn't really look like that good of a lineup to me.

That doesn't really look like that good of a lineup to me.

Who has a better top 9 than:

Bosh
Gordon
Stuckey
Lee
Kapono
Ariza
Anderson
Dice
Bynum

I still doubt the numbers make it work.

No offense, but your way isn't legit.

If you start with $18 mil and trade #15 then you have $20 mil to spend.

Spend it how you see fit.

That's how it works.

Bosh 15.8 mil
Gordon 10
Stuckey 1.8
Lee 9
Kapono 6.2
Ariza 5.8
Anderson 5.8
Dice
Bynum 0.8
AA 1
Sharpe 0.7

That's 57 mil before Dice. So I don't see how the numbers don't work. Obviously Kapono is out with his trade. Maybe we do RIP/Tay for Bosh/Banks without #15 now and use #15 for a wing? Banks only makes 4 mil, so you have extra money for #15.

I think it's a bad idea to use these cap numbers out there when you don't know how they arrived at them. Some say 18 mil, some say 20 mil, some count Brown, some don't. It's much better to add up the salaries on your own to see.

Is the cap gonna be $57 mil?

Like you said it really doesn't matter now, though - Kapono is out of Toronto.

Who has a better top 9 than:

Bosh
Gordon
Stuckey
Lee
Kapono
Ariza
Anderson
Dice
Bynum
I don't know, you've got essentially 7-8 really good backups and Bosh here. A lot of teams have better than that. Also, "top nine"? That's an odd set.

I don't know, you've got essentially 7-8 really good backups and Bosh here. A lot of teams have better than that. Also, "top nine"? That's an odd set.

I consider Gordon a solid #2 guy. Stuckey is a solid #3 guy. Lee is a great #4 guy. I'm a little concerned about bench scoring (the rest are mostly role players), but I don't see 7-8 backups. I see good 1-4 options and 5-9 are backups.

What team has 5 legit options anyway? The Lakers are probably the deepest team, and Ariza is their #5 option to start as well.

You have Gordon coming off the bench behind Kapono.


PG Stuckey/Bynum
SG Kapono/Gordon
SF Ariza/Kapono
PF Bosh/Dice
C Lee/Anderson
That starting core get's destroyed defensively. Anderson helps down low but the bench get's killed at the arc. You've spent all the money and I have a hard time seeing how this isn't the Detroit version of the Raptors (better, playoffs for sure, but nowhere near a championship team).

Fool, can you poke holes in my team (Research/Question thread)?

It's similar (Chris copied my ideas) but I believe it's significantly different.

I wanna talk about Zekyl.

I haven't had time lately, give me a chance to go back and look at things and I'll finish up my idea later today.

Wouldn't Rip, Tay, Max, #15 for Bosh, Kapono not work (not that it matters now)? The Raps don't have cap space and the incoming salaries would have been a solid 5 million higher than outgoing for them.

What? RIP and Tay make like 21 mil combined. Bosh makes almost 16 and Kapono makes just over 6. How does that not work?

Ok, first try at finishing this.

#1:
Tay/#15 to OKC for Green
Amir to CHI for Hinrich
Rip/2nd to GS for Biedrins/Wright
Sign Matt Barnes or Quinton Ross as a backup SF - can Barnes play SG if needed? How much is he going to cost? If he can play some SG and won't get overpaid, go with Barnes, if not go with Ross.
Sign PF

still have two 2nds

Hinrich/Bynum
Stuckey/AA
Green/Barnes or Ross/Sharpe
FA/Wright/Max
Biedrins/Kwame

Can Wright play any SF? I know he was battling for the PF spots in GS, but he's always listed as just a Forward and not a PF

2:
Rip/#15 to OKC for Green
Afflalo/2nd to CHI for Hinrich
Prince/Amir/2nd/Future 1st to TOR for Bosh/Banks
2nd to WASH for Haywood
Sign Matt Barnes or Quinton Ross - same reasoning as above

still have a 2nd

Hinrich/Bynum/Banks
Stuckey
Green/Barnes or Ross/Sharpe
Bosh/Max
Haywood/Kwame

I much prefer deal #2, obviously. Any Bosh trade is assuming he signs an extension, we're not just giving Prince away for a rental.

Z - the more salary you deal out the more you can take back.

Example: If we deal Amir $3,333,333 + 25% the most we can take back $4,160,000 or so.

I'll take Chris at his word and say Rip and Tay = $21 mil. Add $5 mil for Max and $2 mil for the pick for a total of $28 mil.

We could take back $35 mil in that trade!!!

THAT'S why we should spend all our cap space and then do a trade like that.

What? RIP and Tay make like 21 mil combined. Bosh makes almost 16 and Kapono makes just over 6. How does that not work?
They make 21 combined, plus Max (5mil) and the pick (2.5mil?). That's 28.5million to Bosh/Kapono's 22million.

Rip/Tay for Bosh/Kapono would have worked. I was talking about the Rip/Tay/Max/pick that was mentioned. Maybe it was just Rip/Tay/Max which just barely works. If so, that's my bad, but I thought our pick was mentioned in that and it does count towards the trade value, right?

P - I agree that we can take back more, but that trade had Toronto taking back more.

They make 21 combined, plus Max (5mil) and the pick (2.5mil?). That's 28.5million to Bosh/Kapono's 22million.

Rip/Tay for Bosh/Kapono would have worked. I was talking about the Rip/Tay/Max/pick that was mentioned. Maybe it was just Rip/Tay/Max which just barely works. If so, that's my bad, but I thought our pick was mentioned in that and it does count towards the trade value, right?

P - I agree that we can take back more, but that trade had Toronto taking back more.

First off, the pick doesn't count as any salary, so RIP/Tay/Max/Pick is the same as without the pick salary wise. Second, if you add Max in there it makes 26 mil. They could have taken up to 27.5 mil back for Bosh and Kapono.

Doesn't matter anyway with him gone. Now it would have to be Banks and Humpries or something to match.

Hmm, I've been assuming the picks count once its the offseason. That's good to know.

I think the Raps would want to include Banks before Humphries. Humphries is a good backup and he only makes about $6.5mil over 2 years. Banks can be a headache, and he's drastically overpaid at $9mil over 2 years. I'd definitely be willing to take him if it means getting Bosh.

Nope. Unused draft picks are not counted against the cap. Players actually taken with first round picks (but the player is unsigned still) count as their salary "slot" amount. Unsigned second round picks do not count after the player is drafted.

Remember when Pheonix traded away the pick that turned into Rondo so they could get Banks and sign him to that contract?

And that was before Kerr got there and fucked them all up.

What did they get when they traded Banks to Toronto? Just think of how great they'd have been with Rondo. Still no defense, which means still no championship, but they'd have been a whole lot closer. Would Rondo have developed the same though? He didn't really break out as a player until after the "Big 3" came together.

If PHX had Rondo, they could have traded Nash for another piece or two and they'd be that much closer to not being the mess that they are.

Z - the weird thing about first round picks:

Once drafted the guy counts as his salary slot like Chris said.

But you can go over the cap to sign him.

So all our second round picks = ZERO. (Though if we don't have 12 players we'd have minimum wage cap holds - it's all rather complicated)

Anyway - we'd be able to spend our #18 million space, make trades where we take back more salary than we deal out (but within the 25% range) and THEN go over the cap to sign our second round picks and give #15 the usual raise (it used to be 10% - not sure anymore)

Basically we could end up being well over the salary cap after all is said and done - depending on what moves we make.

Okay my stab at it and this should be at least feasible:

1. Amir Johnson (3.66), our first second rounder for David West (9 mill). - 5.4 mill - If they would take Maxiell, that would be great, but I doubt it. If they still say no, maybe even do it without Amir and they save 18 mill in lux tax.

2. Okafor (10.5 mill), Radmanovic (6.45 exp 2011) for Sheed (8mill S&T) 2 year deal. Larry B will like this and the net is - 9 mill

3. I will leave trade number 3 to your ideas but Radmanovic (6.45), 3.5 mill in cap space and/or Rip/Tayshaun could net us anything from a star to a complementary piece.

Okafor, West, Prince, Rip, and Stuckey with Bynum, Afflalo, Radmanovic, Maxiell, Kwame, and #15 on the bench and a starting frontcourt locked in long term.

I like that team.

Attempting to Poke Holes Through It:

The Sheed trade has to happen first, because you didn't renounce him to get the cap space to take back West's contract.

Charlotte get Sheed? Sure, why not. It likely makes them a playoff team if Sheed comes to play for 41 games each season and with LB around Sheed might be willing to do what's needed.

I like the fact we get Okafor - he might be overpaid but we really someone like him on this team. Getting Radmanovic probably makes Joe smile, since Radman can nail a 3 or 2 up front and help space the floor.

New Orleans get Amir? Why do they accept that trade? Yeah, they have money issues but you don't take any shit contracts back, you don't throw in a pick - basically you rape them of an All-Star calibre big man.

If it worked that's a fine team and I'd probably keep both Rip and Tay on board and see how we went.

At #15 I'd probably Draft Austin Daye and hope he developed into a quality SF. If you ended up with that bench he could be brought along slowly (10-15 mins per) in the first half of the season.

Attempting to Poke Holes Through It:

The Sheed trade has to happen first, because you didn't renounce him to get the cap space to take back West's contract.

Charlotte get Sheed? Sure, why not. It likely makes them a playoff team if Sheed comes to play for 41 games each season and with LB around Sheed might be willing to do what's needed.

I like the fact we get Okafor - he might be overpaid but we really someone like him on this team. Getting Radmanovic probably makes Joe smile, since Radman can nail a 3 or 2 up front and help space the floor.

New Orleans get Amir? Why do they accept that trade? Yeah, they have money issues but you don't take any shit contracts back, you don't throw in a pick - basically you rape them of an All-Star calibre big man.

If it worked that's a fine team and I'd probably keep both Rip and Tay on board and see how we went.

At #15 I'd probably Draft Austin Daye and hope he developed into a quality SF. If you ended up with that bench he could be brought along slowly (10-15 mins per) in the first half of the season.

Pharoah,
That's the good thing about the trades. Its not like we couldn't throw in our first, or a couple seconds, or switch Amir for Kwame even throw in Tay or Rip to New Orleans. I just think that when it comes time to pay the tax, New Orleans would probably just rather we didn't give them anyone. They definitely won't be able to move Chandler, and honestly no one is going to take Peja. Unless they are parting with Paul, West is the only big ticket they can move.

ok, using some of the ideas in BFF's plan...I'll try and tweak that:

Step #1 -
Renounce AI and Herrmann, probably Dice too (depends on what he wants to do).

Step #2 -
S&T Sheed + Tay for Okafor + Wallace + Vlad (net cap space -6.5)

Step #3 -
Sign Hedo for 4 yrs (net cap space -8 or 9 mil)

Step #4 -
Max + 2nd rounders for David West (net cap space -4.5 mil)

Step #5 -
RIP for Etan Thomas + Mike James + #5

Draft:
#5 Curry or Flynn
#15 Clark or Johnson

Rotation:
PG Stuckey/#5
SG Wallace/Stuckey
SF Hedo/#15
PF West/Vlad
C Okafor/Kwame

depth:
AA
Thomas
James
Amir

To be clear, you have Gerald Wallace playing the 2 guard.

Yes. Do you think that's a bad idea? I think he has the foot speed to guard it and be an effective defender there. He also complements Hedo (Wallace is more of a slasher).

I think he had to play SF because they were running two PG's when JRich was traded. I'm betting Wallace guards Kobe, Wade, etc though and Jrich did not.

If you think he can't you could simply sign Gordon instead of Hedo and keep Wallace at SF.

Yes. Do you think that's a bad idea? I think he has the foot speed to guard it and be an effective defender there. He also complements Hedo (Wallace is more of a slasher).

I think he had to play SF because they were running two PG's when JRich was traded. I'm betting Wallace guards Kobe, Wade, etc though and Jrich did not.

He was playing PF before they got Diaw. Not sure Chris, when I've seen Wallace he's been under the hoop, but he does have good foot speed, he can shoot 3s, he's be a bull there.....I think it's a bad idea but it may just be an unconventional one.

I'm not going to criticize it right off the bat, I'll just suggest it may not be possible.

Fair enough. I haven't seen enough to know myself. If Joe did think he could guard SG's I think it works. If not, like I said Gordon instead of Hedo might be better.

Gordon and not Hedo is always better.

He'd be great as a SF but I don't see him ever making the move to full time SG. He could possibly play a few minutes there but not the bulk of them. Wallace doesn't have the best handle and he's not a great 3pt shooter, but he's a stud on defense and an athletic freak. He'd be like Tayshaun, only he can bull around the bigger wings that Tay has trouble with. He averages 2 steals and a block a game.

Chris, I'd make that deal in a heartbeat. They'd be idiots to make it, I think. Yes, they shed some cap space and Larry gets his guy, but they're giving up a solid young C and a ridiculously talented forward. I'm not too high on Vlad, does he even TRY to play defense? I suppose he brings us a 3pt gunner though, plus he takes some salary off their books.

Well, Wallace would only have to be able to guard SG's. Hedo would bring 3 point shooting and ball handling. I'm thinking he can't guard SG's full time, which would lend itself to Gordon instead of Hedo after that trade.

That could be great or a disaster.

Stuckey is a slasher that works with the ball in his hands.

Gordon is a slasher that works with the ball in his hands.

Wallace is a slasher that works with the ball in his hands. Not all the time, but he does like to attack the basket.

^he gets to the line alot too and is a pretty decent ft shooter. I'd take Gerald Wallace, but maybe not as the 2 guard. If im not mistaken, he did play a little bit of 4 too?

I once stated that I thought we should trade for Gerald Wallace. There was quite a debate about his skill, injuries and situation in Charlotte.

Good to see the mention of acquiring him doesn't cause such a stir anymore.

I believe he's still a Joe type of guy.

He could be in the mix as a starting SF or a 6th Man role if Charlotte just want cap relief. What does he make per season?

More than a 6th man role...

Not if we've still got Tay and Rip.

And if we're dealing one of them we shouldn't be doing it to get Gerald Wallace.

That could be great or a disaster.

Stuckey is a slasher that works with the ball in his hands.

Gordon is a slasher that works with the ball in his hands.

Wallace is a slasher that works with the ball in his hands. Not all the time, but he does like to attack the basket.

Defintely some truth to this... there needs to be a balance of scoring and facilitating... or you start to resemble the Clippers.
There should be a premium on IQ and recognizing game situations... players that plow to the rim with their head down often make poor decisions and encourage a selfish environment (team mates start thinking I better jack it up cause I might not see the ball for another 10 minutes).
Stat whores need not apply.

But Gordon has 3 point range and can work off the ball to some extent.

Wallace also can hit jumpers at a reasonable rate.

We're not talking about Jerry Stackhouse kind of guys who can't consistently hit an 18 foot J or drive to the hoop without dribbling the ball off their feet.

Gordon and Wallace are better than that.

We're not talking about Jerry Stackhouse kind of guys who can't consistently hit an 18 foot J or drive to the hoop without dribbling the ball off their feet.

Oh my god P I think you just gave me an acid flashback. I forgot how much I used to hate when that happened. And then happened. And then happened 2 more times each game. At least he gave us 52 wins, 50 against the Bulls, and Rip of course. And I talked to him during a timeout a home game... in between his free throws nonetheless. I liked him.

Well, at one point in time he was my favourite player.

Dude just didn;t improve or add anything to his game after a certain period of time.

Lack of work ethic? Happy with his spot? Who knows?

I think he was just upset about the ugly uniform he had to wear.

Obviously I remember he was your favorite player, he was your namesake. In all facets he delivered for us really. Scored, made FTs, played with more intensity than Hill has ever shown, and wanted to play for us. He was a Piston, regardless of his propensity for TOs. Actually given the Piston era he was replacing (I call the Rothstein since he just summed up the whole thing), having a lot of TO's seems appropriate.

I could never hate him.

In most games you can see the effort he's giving, trying to get such a bad team to a "W".

That was what I liked about him from the word go - his effort. In games he would just try his guts out to make the play or the shot or somehow, anyhow get us a win.

I never understood why that didn't apply in the off-season.

Maybe he hated practice?

He left me with good memories though - The Bulls scoring frenzy, the punch to Laettner, the dissing of Grant Hill in a SLAM magazine I own where he says "he's never won anything either so why do I have to listen to him?"...

(that was after Hill had been signed and traded)

Plus he got us Rip lol - and I actually proposed a Rip/Stack deal on RGM. It was the first deal I was "right" about

I could go on and on but won't