Stole it from another site, but what is the legacy of CBill, Rip, Tay, Ben, Sheed? I'd expect that Rip and Tay are the only players left, if that, so can we close the book on them? Was this already discussed?

Won a championship baby? Just win!

Underachieved?

Made a good run at that ECF for years?

Thoughts...Comments

Unfortunately, we spoiled fans will probably brand them as underachievers, but I think it's important to remember that few people gave us a chance when we won it all. I still remember reading the newspaper predictions, particularly from AS Blakely. He had us losing to New Jersey in 6 games, and then had us losing to Indiana in 6 games, and of course had us losing to LA in 4 or 5. Truthfully, those predictions seemed fairly safe, in some respects, except for losing to Jersey. I think time will show that Ben and Chauncey's Pistons did the most that they could with what they had for two seasons, flopped bigtime against LeBron the following year, and might have had a chance against the Celtics last year with a fully-healthy Chauncey.

All in all, I hope their legacy will stand the test of time as a team that worked hard to get to the top, even though they didn't always work as hard once they got there.

Good post.

Remember the guy who was on NBA TV known as the coach saying the Lakers would sweep us? Even when he got to Detroit he was catching hell from Pistons fans while doing the show and he would still hold up the 4 fingers that we would get swept...which at that point was impossible.

I'd also say that it seemed like we won it a year or 2 before I expected to win it.

I think those teams over achieved and were the first of the new/old breed.

When we won the "2 superstars plus role players" model that only ever applied to Jordan's Bulls was in effect. We took it old school and came with a teams of fucking players that tgether were more than the sum of their parts.

We had no right to win it when we did but we out worked and out hustled many teams on our way to the top. In the beginning none of our 5 were thought of as "stars", except maybe Sheed and he had serious issues.

We basically were a collection of unwanted players and somehow they developed this insane chemistry that took down any team in their path. The run where we held a bunch of teams under 70 points will always be a highlight for me, simply because we crushed teams and had fanboys whining about the game being boring. Kicking ass is not boring.

Not too long ago I called them a dynasty and was shouted down. A recent article was posted here that used the term "dynastic". Whatever - if you have to invent a new word to not "hurt" the "real" dynasties then get the fuck out. We ruled the East for 5+ years and for me that is enough sustained excellence to be branded a dynasty. Only those caught up soley in rings would dispute it.

I think that the legacy of the team will be "What could have been!" If you think about it, maybe they did underachieve in some people's eyes but they were damn good. They won a Championship and made it to the Finals twice. What if Sheed hadn't left Horry open? What if Ben hadn't left? What if Darko panned out even just a little? What if Billups wasn't constantly getting injured in the playoffs? This team easily could have won 3 or 4 Championships but didn't for one reason or another. Oh, what could have been!

What if Tay doesn't block Reggie?

What if Tay doesn't block Reggie?
Then no one would have any notable memories of Tayshaun Prince.

Nah, he'd still be the guy who single-handedly stopped McGrady and the kid who destroyed the Sixers out of nowhere. Tay's more than a one trick pony. It's just that one trick stands out so far from the others.

It wasn't as single-handed as what he did to T-Mac but he was HUGE against Kobe too.

I think that the legacy of the team will be "What could have been!" If you think about it, maybe they did underachieve in some people's eyes but they were damn good. They won a Championship and made it to the Finals twice. What if Sheed hadn't left Horry open? What if Ben hadn't left? What if Darko panned out even just a little? What if Billups wasn't constantly getting injured in the playoffs? This team easily could have won 3 or 4 Championships but didn't for one reason or another. Oh, what could have been!

What if you weren't such a negative motherfucker?

I don't know if it's just me but it seems you're the kind of guy that complains about the quality of food they serve at a strip club.

You can sit there all day and wonder what might have been. I'd rather focus on what was and what they did accomplish.

In your opinion they could have easily won 3 or 4 Championships?

Have you have ever fucking tried to accomplish anything difficult in your life? Winning a fucking NBA Championship is not easy and repeating that feat 2 or 3 times would be extremely, extremely difficult.

But you know all about that, right? You trash Joe, you complain about our 5+ year run and you Monday morning quarterback the fuck out of everything the organisation.

Maybe you should run your own business - you seem to know everything.

What if you weren't such a negative motherfucker?

I don't know if it's just me but it seems you're the kind of guy that complains about the quality of food they serve at a strip club.

You can sit there all day and wonder what might have been. I'd rather focus on what was and what they did accomplish.

In your opinion they could have easily won 3 or 4 Championships?

Have you have ever fucking tried to accomplish anything difficult in your life? Winning a fucking NBA Championship is not easy and repeating that feat 2 or 3 times would be extremely, extremely difficult.

But you know all about that, right? You trash Joe, you complain about our 5+ year run and you Monday morning quarterback the fuck out of everything the organisation.

Maybe you should run your own business - you seem to know everything.

LMAO, nice, P.

full disclosure here, I've got some damn good food at some strip clubs in Miami.

Ok, back on topic.

Full disclosure here: I once worked busing tables, washing dishes and helping in the kitchen at Players on 8 mile during lunch hours. :we: served lobster, filet mignon and pasta dishes to executives who would put a stack of bills on their tables. They'd eat, drink, talk about their stuff and go through their stacks in various ways.

Anyway, it was a real chef working there. The food was amazing.

i'm very appreciative of what they accomplished in their time. it was quite a run and there were a lot of good times and great milestones along the way.

however i don't care what anybody says- this is a team that was built for and should have won at least 2 probably 3 championships. yes, i do understand how INCREDIBLY hard it is to even win ONE in a lifetime. but they were right there for the taking and we became too full of ourselves and dug holes for ourselves that we thought we could always overcome, because we had before.

i think if our guys had the mentality- ie mental toughness- of many of the players from the 1980s, we wouldn't have become so comfortable and we would have maximized our opportunity to win more than 1 title. again, i'm not downplaying the significance of that one or how great it was. but we pissed away great chances to TRULY build a legacy.

and i don't buy the argument that we didn't have a true star so we were lucky to win one and we only did it by outworking our opponents, bla bla bla. sure we did- championship teams do that. but we also DID have the talent and the chemistry to win more.

i don't see that we lucked into our one title by any means, as some would suggest. we were fortunate to stay healthy and all that stuff. but we were playing the best basketball when it counted most and we wanted it more than anyone else. so we focussed and executed on both ends, and won. we were as good and talented as any team for a good 4 or 5 years and while having 1 title to show for it is a great accomplishment, it could have and IMO it SHOULD have been at least 2 possibly even 3.


so for me, i will forever remember this piston team as one that could be both the most fun to watch but also the most frustrating to watch at the same time, given their lack of motivation/concentration/inspiration, often at key times. there was at least 1 more title there for the taking and we left it out there.

What if you weren't such a negative motherfucker?

I don't know if it's just me but it seems you're the kind of guy that complains about the quality of food they serve at a strip club.

You can sit there all day and wonder what might have been. I'd rather focus on what was and what they did accomplish.

In your opinion they could have easily won 3 or 4 Championships?

Have you have ever fucking tried to accomplish anything difficult in your life? Winning a fucking NBA Championship is not easy and repeating that feat 2 or 3 times would be extremely, extremely difficult.

But you know all about that, right? You trash Joe, you complain about our 5+ year run and you Monday morning quarterback the fuck out of everything the organisation.

Maybe you should run your own business - you seem to know everything.

Damn! Who peed in you Wheaties?

I didn't think that my post was negative nor was that my intention. I even state that they were a damn good team. Do you not agree that if Sheed had covered Horry we would have likely beat SA? What if Billups hadn't come up lame in two different playoff years? I'm not blaming the Pistons for this but just stating that this team was good enough and possibly could have won 3 or 4 Championships.

As for accomplishing difficult things I have done many. I don't claim to know eveything but I am fairly knowlegeable about the Pistons. I was thie first one to jump on Curry and now almost everyone agrees with me. I was the first one to jump on Joe D and now many are agreeing. I was instantly pissed with Joe for not drafting Chalmers and I was right.

And FYI, Monday morning quarterbacking is AFTER the fact. A lot of my criticisms are before the fact.

Mick - you have been posting a ton of negative shit and this was just the last straw.

Good on you for picking Chalmers - maybe you and I should be hired as scouts cause we all know ours are fucking useless.

I agree there are a lot of "what ifs" like all those you mentioned PLUS

What if we Draft Chris Bosh (and not Darko)?

What if we draft Josh Howard (and not Delfino)?

What if we draft Jason Kapono (and not Maxiell)?

The organisation has fucked up quite a bit and I'm not hating on you for pointing it out. I guess I'm hating on you for reminding me...

well then i hate to point out to you that we never had a chance to draft jason kapono over jason maxiell. they were drafted 2 years apart actually. :o)

they were like 7 min away from the back to back championchip, so that hurt the most...that and the Robert Horry 3 in game 5, i'd like to blame Sheed...so they underachieved could have won at least one more championchip easily...

well then i hate to point out to you that we never had a chance to draft jason kapono over jason maxiell. they were drafted 2 years apart actually. :o)

It seems we're having the same convo in 2 seperate threads so:

I went through Maxiell's Draft a little while ago and had a list of names I would prefer over Maxiell due to production and potential. I'm not gonna do it again.

If Kapono isn't one of the guys on that list it doesn't matter much to me. I mentioned him off the top of my head and was mistaken - so kill me.

lol- i was just pointing out an error, no need to get defensive buddy.

Their legacy is that they entertained me greatly, and played some good ball.

I could play woulda coulda shoulda until I'm blue in the face, but the overall legacy of Chauncey's stint here (which happens to clearly mark the beginning and end, though it's not just about Chauncey) was far more positive than it was negative, and I'm not planning to view it any other way.

HW - I'm not getting defensive dude. I was just mistaken.

I had a pretty extensive list for the Darko Draft and the Maxiell Draft.

Any chance we drafted Delfino and could have drafted Kapono then?

Maybe that's where I fucked up?

yeah they were in the same draft. that being said, there probably wasn't an nba GM or scout who would have made that pick at the time. delfino was one of the most highly thought of prospects and it was surprising he even fell as far as he did.

once upon a time he really looked like he was starting to put it together. then he injured his knee and wasn't used right by our coach...and it all went south. but back then he was considered by all to be the better prospect. sadly, that didn't work out for us as we all know what popular opinion is worth....

But that's my point HW - Delfino was thought of highly by our scouts and for many reasons (some you mentioned, some you didn't) he was a failure.

I don't care what other scouts think - if they're stupid that's better for us IF our scouts don't just follow the popular opinion. However our scouts seem unable to spot the "capable" from the "quality" players.

I honestly think that we, as a forum, could do the same job as our scouts and we don't have the luxury of the extensive tests they conduct on each and every prospect we deem worthy.

And that frustrates me.

Actually, like HW said, our scouts really liked him and they were right it seemed. He was developing into a solid SG that could be used to handle the ball when needed. Unfortunately, he hurt his knee and he was just never the same afterwards, but that's not on the scouts. They just find the players, they don't coach them up, heal their wounds, or tell stupid coaches that the guy is a slashing SG that can be used as a combo guard and not a fucking SF so please for the love of god stop running him out there as Tay's backup and having him stand in the corner for spot-up 3's all game. That's not on the scouts, they just find the guys and move on.

^ what he said!

but i do agree with you pharoah, in that we DO have a group of guys in here who could do a nice job as scouts for the pistons. show me where to sign up!

Well, it's obvious we view pre-injured Delfino differently.

yeah definitely. i remember him slashing to the hoop and throwing it down on people and being very creative at dishing it to others.

how many games of his did you see? he was a really good slasher and could've been a real nice player for us, if he was not asked to play outside of himself and if things did not go south after his injury.

I remember the whining and the bitching mostly.

The games? I saw a lot back then - I just thought he was too inconsistent to be relied upon (though he was still in his first 3 seasons).

I guess I just didn't like him - once Josh Howard proved he was capable for Dallas I thought our scouts had fucked up again.

HW...Delfino was, and prolly still is, a whinny lil bitch. Put your wus and pus stuff you have for Artest on this panty wearing hoebag.

T, if it makes you feel better:

I believe both Artest and Delfino are pussies and should not be allowed to wear the Piston uniform.

I would rather see crackhead Chris Anderson here than Artest.

It was never said that Anderson was banned for crack. Actually, I don't think the actual substance ever made the media. It could have been a number of different (and equally terrible) things.

Dope for sure, probably more.

But I think you can say that about 4 of the 2008/09 Pistons and nobody seemed to care about that.

Yeah, um, it wasn't dope.

It was on their higher-level substance list, that's about all that was released. Guys get a (relatively) short suspension for pot. Anderson got MINIMUM 2 years and rehab.

I really still cant figure out why we gave maxiell the extension we did.

He threatened to eat someones children, I'd assume.

Because Joe thought Maxiell could be the role player many here think he can be.

Think Bass, or mini-Ben Wallace.

It's just a shame that Maxiell doesn't seem to be driven, or it's a shame that Flip and Curry couldn't motivate him or it's a shame the coaches don't utilise him better.

Pick the excuse - it has to be someone's fault that this beast of man can't become a regular member of our rotation and yet Kwame Brown can!

I like last year's Maxiell, the one with a moderate ability to rebound.

But...

Anyone who thinks that the major legacy of the recent Pistons team is about Maxiell needs their head examined.

Um, thread went off one a tangent, as it usually does.

I seriously doubt anyone gives a flying fuck about Maxiell and how he relates to the legacy of the "recent" Pistons teams.

Because Joe thought Maxiell could be the role player many here think he can be.

Think Bass, or mini-Ben Wallace.

It's just a shame that Maxiell doesn't seem to be driven, or it's a shame that Flip and Curry couldn't motivate him or it's a shame the coaches don't utilise him better.

Pick the excuse - it has to be someone's fault that this beast of man can't become a regular member of our rotation and yet Kwame Brown can!

Maybe he's bad at basketball?

Yeah, maybe. Make any excuse for him not being what many expected.

Just don't blame the scouts for not seeing through the holes in his game/mental make up.

They didn't spend tons of money doing tests on the guy, did they?

In show business, they say "Always leave them wanting more".

I think the Pistons followed that to a t.

It's a strange dynamic to have such a great run, but to still feel like you got shafted.

That's the opposite of an excuse. It's the same reason I'm not in the league. He's not good.

He's a late first. Most aren't good. He's one of them.

Dude, don't come with that "he's a late first and they all suck" excuse.

I expected us, in his deep draft to find a quality role player. They missed a few quality role players and took him.

He was a career back-up the day he was Drafted.

He was NEVER gonna be anything more than what he was on Draft Day.

He was/is an undersized, possible energizer that is capable of playing 10-15 quality minutes AT MOST per game.

You're gonna tell me we couldn't do better in that Draft?

I'm tired of having this fucking discussion, especially when some seriously smart dudes like Mxy, HW and now Hermy all believe our scouts don't suck monkey crap.

On any other topic I usually agree with you 3 I'm torn when you disagree but as far as our scouting/drafting goes I couldn't disagree more.

He is a role player. It isn't an excuse. It is what he is.

We could have done better in that draft, of course. I'm sure you'll agree we could have done worse, yes?

And I'm no fan of our scouts. They're average. Which isn't good enough to win titles, which is all I care about. Now find better ones.

Yeah, we could have done worse in that Draft, and the 2003 Draft.

But the fact we didn't do better is a serious fucking concern, considering we're talking about the legacy of our recent starting 5.

IF we had drafted better we'd still be contenders - I have no doubt about that. Chris Bosh would be here, Josh Howard would be here and David Lee would be here in a "best case scenario".

Imagine our team! (and yes I'm aware that with those guys here we wouldn't have drafted Stuckey @ 15 cause our record would have been better. My response? We'd have Bosh!)

pharoah- i said nothing about our scouts in general. all i've pointed out is that you are VASTLY overrating that draft class and this particular pick was at best, solid, and at worst 'OK'.

i don't care how much you hated the maxiell pick, that was NOT a very deep draft. not at all. we've beaten this one to death but you keep bringing it up, so i'll have to keep pointing out your mistake.

i don't think our scouts are terrible overall. they've had some decent hits but some painful misses too, no doubt. it's not just them though.

you just can't expect much from late 1st rounders. look at afflalo. do you think he'll EVER be more than a backup who has no athleticism or lift in his legs but is a good hustler and occasional 3 point shooter? no. never. he'll never be more than just a role player who can play decent, but who also has some serious flaws in his game.

and he was a late 1st rounder. so did we bomb on that pick? i don't know- there was big baby- who if you'll remember, i wanted back then as an undersized 'center' from LSU, there was ramon sessions......and pretty much nothing else but spare parts. j-max's year is very similar. a couple of players who could play a role but nobody worth crying about passing on them.

it's just the nature of picking late in the 1st round. there are hits and misses and there are lots of space eaters- IOW, guys who you take and don't progress much past the title of role player.

IMO that's what j-max and afflalo both are.

Just one fuckin time in my life I want to see HW post a fuckin 1 word post. He must go through 6 fuckin keyboards a fuckin day.

five

lol

Here I Go Again On My Own -

Maxiell's Draft and the players I think are better/on par:

David Lee
Brandon Bass
CJ Miles - might not be better right now but has more upside
Monta Ellis
Louis Williams
Andray Blatche
Von Wafer
Ryan Gomes

Roko Ukic was also part of the 2005 Draft - what happened to him? Everyone was hyping him up at the time. Ronny Turiaf was also drafted that year and he's proven that he can play reasonable minutes in the league.

If Ukic is doing reasonably wherever he plays that's 10 guys we could have Drafted instead of Maxiell. Granted that's looking back in hindsight but I expect our scouts to be able to look ahead a couple of years and see who is gonna be capable.

As for AA it's too soon to tell if any player drafted below him is "better". I think he was a good pick, but if he ends up being passed by 6 or 8 other guys then that will piss me off again.

I believe our scouts are paid to work through all the bullshit and find talent that will excel at the NBA level. The fact that they miss so many guys is a real worry and directly impacts our ability to win games, win titles and maintain the team internally as a franchise.

You can't just keep buying players all the time. You need that cheap labour lol

Just one fuckin time in my life I want to see HW post a fuckin 1 word post. He must go through 6 fuckin keyboards a fuckin day.

Damn! Tahoe is one angry dude. Chill out, bro

I know...And I need to quit saying fuck so fuckin much

like the blue?

Its off to a rough start, imo. We'll see...

The White Text thing is fuckin ground breaking though.

Well, I don't really do humour so the blue isn't going to appear much, unless someone else does it.

one thing's for sure- if our scouts can find even ONE player from our 3 second-round picks this year....then they are an incredible group of scouts.

there are some decent developmental players in the early 2nd. and who knows how the board will shape up. but this is- overall - a very poor draft and those 3 second rounders would've been a lot nicer to have in other years when the draft was actually really deep.

OK, gotta go switch out my keyboard.....

Well, I don't really do humour so the blue isn't going to appear much, unless someone else does it.

I'll give it a go here at some point.

what does blue stand for? or is it just a random color choice? nobody tells me these things. it took me 2 years before somebody told me 'green' meant sarcasm. i think.

back on topic.....what were we talking about? vaginas?

humor...some peeps just don't fuckin get good humor in fuckin swearin all the fuckin time. They think peeps are being fucking mean and shit, so hopefully blue will help the fuckin situation

fuck you in the ear, that's a good idea!

your screen name is in blue. that supposed to be some kind of funny?

Oh, and while I'm checking Drafts here is 2003:

We all know the Darko pick was fucked up and we could of had everyone not named Lebron (when discussing this pick no one ever mentions that David West was drafted @ 18! Not saying we should have drafted him at #2 - just amazed at the depth of this Draft)

The Delfino pick is another screw up:

Perkins, Barbosa, Josh Howard, Kapono, Luke Walton, Steve Blake, Willie Green, Zaza Pachulia, Matt Bonner, James Jones and Kyle Korver were all drafted after Delfino.

And I think everyone wants me to go back to 2001 and 2000:

Missing on Turkoglu, Des Mason, Q Richardson, Magloire, Claxton, Mo Pete, Stevenson, Eddie House and Michael Redd for Cleaves in 2000

And missing Joe Johnson, Radmanovic, Richard Jefferson, Troy Murphy, Zach Randolph, Haywood, Gerald Wallace (25), Samuel Dalembert (26), Tinsley (27), Tony Parker (28) in the first round of 2001

What a sequence to end the first round - all solid starters at worst!

In the 2nd round in 2001 Arenas was picked before Okur - so we could of had him and not White!

Fucking hell we suck at the Draft!

So, the quick recap:

2000 = fucked up
2001 = fucked up except for Memo
2002 = Got Tayshaun.
2003 = fucked up big time
2004 = picked 55th
2005 = fucked up with Maxiell, scored with Amir
2006 = picked 51st and 60th

WOW! And some people claim we're average?

Please remember even a blind squirrel can find the odd nut.

And NOTE: No fucking blue in my last post.

That's cause our scouts are seriously fucking useless.

And I would love to know if we sacked any of them fuckers over the last 8 years due to their horrible, fucking moronic performances on Draft Day.

I wonder if these cunts just fly all over the world, watch games and then just throw a name out there when Joe needs to know one.

IIRC we did work out Joe Johnson, Richard Jefferson and Rodney White. And we still picked White! Fuck me! The mind boggles!

i blame joe for cleaves though. EVERYBODY knew he was just a nice college player but he was too slow and unathletic to play in the nba. not to mention a 15 foot jumpshot was out of his range.

but joe got caught up in his 'leadership' qualities and thought he could make him into a player. bad pick and i'm sure even our scouts told joe these things. they couldn't have not known what they had in cleaves.....

At the end of the day Joe is respsonsible for those Drafts.

We stuffed up so many that we now find ourselves in our current position:

Few young studs and relying on cap space for a bighter future.

If we had of drafted better we'd still be a contender IMO, especially if we got Bosh. But think back to the beginning when Stackhouse, Corliss and Cliffy were on the roster. Imagine we had Turkoglu and not Cleaves, Parker and not White. That makes a pretty big difference to the future path we would have taken.

Would we have got Sheed? Would we have won the title? And I'm glad I didn't check to see who Boston and Atlanta got with our picks or who we could have picked. It drives me insane already.

When we drafted Delfino, I wanted us to take Luke Walton pretty bad.

I also remember really holding out hope for Haywood, I don't remember what draft that was though.

The Mateen pick was the year before I really started paying attention to draft stuff.

Unfortunately, I wanted Darko, based mostly on all of the hype surrounding him and the fact that I thought Carmela looked like too much of a cocky asshole to me and we already had Tay (who we all thought was going to develop into a stud).

I think a lot of this comes down to our player development, if you really think about it. Guys that have a ton of upside (Darko, Delfino, Amir, Rodney White was even supposed to just be a big bundle of upside, etc.) just never really get developed for shit by us and its pathetic, we need to work on that as much as scouting, IMHO. Name the last "upside" guy we developed at all? Prince is the only guy we ever drafted that developed into a solid player and I feel like he already had that in him, it wasn't really our doing.

LB would have developed some players, IMO.

LB could've coached that group of uncoachables.

See, this is where the Draft debate gets tricky:

Many blame the organisation for not developing these kids, not playing them enough minutes to improve.

Others blame the player for not devloping his game in practice and in the off-season to reach the point where Coaches are forced to play him.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I probably am the most out-spoken about our Draftee's lack of internal drive and I do have to admit I didn't think of the following scenario:

You get drafted by the great Detroit Pistons and you know they basically have their rotation set. You don't care - you're a driven dude and have proven yourself on every level of basketball.

So, you go to Summer League and do what you're told. You do extra work in the gym. You go to practice early and you stay late. Pre-season comes and you're getting limited minutes cause you have a guaranteed deal and the organisation wants to look at other players. You don't care, cause you're driven

You go to practice early, stay late, do everything you're told and then the season starts. You get almost ZERO minutes. You sit out many games! You have no role and when you do play you are basically playing a pick up game with the other scrubs in a blow out. You don't care, cause you're driven...

At what point does the rookie lose hope? At what point does all the extra work become, in his mind, "pointless"?

Maybe the organisation does need to look at how the develop players and how they treat them - surely all these different kids couldn't have been "mentally weak"?

Holy Shit - I'm actually softening my stance - time for bed before you guys try and convince me Curry can Coach.

See, this is where the Draft debate gets tricky:

Many blame the organisation for not developing these kids, not playing them enough minutes to improve.

Others blame the player for not devloping his game in practice and in the off-season to reach the point where Coaches are forced to play him.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I probably am the most out-spoken about our Draftee's lack of internal drive and I do have to admit I didn't think of the following scenario:

You get drafted by the great Detroit Pistons and you know they basically have their rotation set. You don't care - you're a driven dude and have proven yourself on every level of basketball.

So, you go to Summer League and do what you're told. You do extra work in the gym. You go to practice early and you stay late. Pre-season comes and you're getting limited minutes cause you have a guaranteed deal and the organisation wants to look at other players. You don't care, cause you're driven

You go to practice early, stay late, do everything you're told and then the season starts. You get almost ZERO minutes. You sit out many games! You have no role and when you do play you are basically playing a pick up game with the other scrubs in a blow out. You don't care, cause you're driven...

At what point does the rookie lose hope? At what point does all the extra work become, in his mind, "pointless"?

Maybe the organisation does need to look at how the develop players and how they treat them - surely all these different kids couldn't have been "mentally weak"?

Holy Shit - I'm actually softening my stance - time for bed before you guys try and convince me Curry can Coach.

This is a good point, and one that I've actually considered many times. I was so surprised that Stuckey didn't receive "the treatment," as P outlined it, and I think he's much better off because of it. I think Darko's drive and fire, which everyone said he had in Serbia, were calmed and put out, so to speak, by the way he was handled. I don't buy that we didn't have 15 minutes to put the guy on the floor. He probably expected that and probably deserved it, honestly, and when it didn't happen in his second season, the guy quit because he knew it wasn't going to work out for him in Detroit.

I think LB can coach up and develop guys that have been in the league a few years, but he had no interest in developing our rookies, if you remember. He can take a guy like Chauncey and completely mold him into an MVP-caliber point guard, but he has no time or patience for taking a rookie making rookie mistakes and turning him into a solid contribution to the team. One of the very few things I didn't like about him as a coach.

Pharaoh, I'm not saying we have the best scouts, but I've got to assume that at least some of the time the scouts got the right guy and we just didn't develop him properly. Maybe if we bring in a real big-man coach instead of just some guy from his home country that he likes, a guy like Darko isn't a COMPLETE bust. He still had a shitty attitude and work ethic, but if we'd worked his development a bit more and gotten him some court time that wasn't garbage minutes MAYBE he works a little harder for us and at least makes the rotation. That still is no excuse for taking him over Wade or Bosh. Side note: how can you not love the drive and work ethic of a guy that knows you aren't going to draft him, but comes in and busts his ass for you anyway in a pre-draft workout. That would tell me that if he wants to prove himself to me so much right now, he's going to do that in the offseason, training camp, and practice and really develop his game for us. If I'd heard about that before the draft, he'd have been my pick. That's why I like Bosh so much now.

More likely, if we'd brought in a real big-man coach and sent him to the D-League with Amir, then Amir wouldn't have just been playing down there and dominating only with athleticism because they'd be forcing him to develop his game as a whole.

You have to admit that our scouts found a gem in Amir and we've pretty much fucked up in developing him. Some of that is on him, but with the skills he has and good coaching he should have at least turned into a great energy guy off the bench, not someone that comes in and just fouls the shit out of people.

At this point, I just have no trust in our player development in the slightest. If we had a track record of bringing in guys and getting them to bust ass and reach their potential for us, like the New England Patriots of basketball essentially, then I'd love Dumars' move to move down and draft Sharpe. But look at our last 5-6 years of draft picks and tell me who we've taken and made reach his full potential. I'm not the best scout in the world so people will probably need to correct me on this stuff, but its what I've seen. Just off the top of my head:

Amir - not even close, could be a stud but he's a fouling machine.

Max - showed flashes of getting there last year and then regressed. His potential is probably a great energy 3rd big, not a starter, but he's not even at that point right now.

Stuckey - The kid has skills and he's still got time to develop, but we would have been MUCH better off using him as the 3rd guard for another year and letting him develop. His still a work in progress so I can't be too harsh.

Sharpe - too soon to tell but he looks lost on the court at this point. I'm not sure why they didn't give him some D-League burn this year just to get used to playing the 3

Afflalo - solid defensive guy, I feel like we should be getting more out of him but I can't really complain. Tell him to do nothing but dribble around a court and shoot jumpers this offseason. All day. Every day. No questions asked.

Darko - NEXT

Delfino - showed flashes of being a good combo guard that could handle the ball and occasionally break down his man in a 3 guard rotation. So what did we do? We used him as a swing man that stood around the corners waiting to jack up 3s as a 33% 3pt shooter. Then he went and played the combo guard role for the Argentina national team and excelled, so we bring him back and shove him into our swingman spot again. This one has always bugged me. I felt that way about him before I started posting here, and then I came here and heard other people saying it and felt justified. If we can all see that he's best used as a 2 that can handle the ball and he plays at his best when used that way, why can't our team?

I really had no expectations of Acker, Paulding, or Gliniadakis. That covers everyone back to the '03 draft.

Our e-mail and phone systems are down at work so I felt it was a good time to just ramble. My apologies.

It's cool, dude. Type as much as you like. If you wanna read essays on pro wrestling go check out the thread in the Other Sports forum.

I will admit that we have drafted several guys that had obvious skills. We've just always found a way to not use them properly or erode those skills to the point that we trade them away for little in return.

I find that to be the most frustrating thing.

And if you take a guy (Darko) and you are in the ECF I believe you have 2 options:

Play him as much as you can get away with, even if it costs you some regular season wins. You know you have a quality team, built for the playoffs - play the kid but make sure you make the fucking playoffs.

OR

You trade the kid on Draft Day for some proven talent that you believe can help your Eastern Conference Finalist reach the NBA Finals.

We did neither!!!

We sat him. We told him to work hard and you will be rewarded with minutes. It Never, Ever, EVER happened.

Dude never fucking played.

No wonder he got all shitty/pissy/bitchy.

And until the day I die I will complain about the fact that our scouts worked out both Bosh and Darko and they decided that Darko was the better pick!

WTF? Stupid, stupid, stupid fucks!

It's their job to see through the bullshit and they couldn't!

They should have traded with Denver and let Denver take Darko! We take Bosh @3 and likely pick up some other piece in the deal for dropping 1 spot!

Fuck me! I can't believe we fucked that up! That choice, on that day cost this fucking franchise big time.

And the only excuse people have for our huge, monumental fuck up is: "Everyone was high on Darko".

So? Everyone might like to drink Foster's - doesn't mean I have to be a dumbass and drink that shit. Make your own mind up and make your own choice.

Blindly following popular opinion is the dumbest fucking thing on Earth. Bunch of sheep. Wake the fuck up already.

My favorite part about how we fucked up with Darko is that in Europe he wasn't a back to the basket guy. In his workouts he wasn't a back to the basket guy (from everything I read, including that ESPN Mag main feature on him). He was always a face up, stretch the defense player, but we tried to force him to be a back to the basket guy even when he publicly said that wasn't his game.

I think LB can coach up and develop guys that have been in the league a few years, but he had no interest in developing our rookies, if you remember. He can take a guy like Chauncey and completely mold him into an MVP-caliber point guard, but he has no time or patience for taking a rookie making rookie mistakes and turning him into a solid contribution to the team. One of the very few things I didn't like about him as a coach.

Totally disagree with you there. He had a team that was ready to win right away and he did what he had to to win the ring. With that type of team, I'd much rather have a guy priming the team to win titles than having him coddle the youngsters so they can develop at the expense of winning.

He did plenty of teaching in practice for the guys that were willing to pay the price. If he knew that he was going to be around for 5-6 years, he might have been more willing to "develop" some of the prospects, like he is doing in Charlotte, but here, his was a "win now" situation from the get go.

I just remember the word was always that even in Philly, where he was staying for quite a while, he hated rookies and pushed management to trade draft picks for players.

Z's right though - we tried to take a face up player and change him, which is stupid. I understand that they wanted him to develop a better overall game and stuff, but dont take away his strength at the same time.

But Z, all coaches prefer proven players that know what the fuck they're doing, IMO.

LB was/is no different but when he arrived it was obvious what he was here for: Win a ring or 2 or 3.

Which is why Darko never played. Joe should have sat down with LB and asked him point blank: "Are you gonna play the kid?"

LB would have given Joe a ton of reasons why Darko was not gonna play significant minutes as a rookie and Joe would have to make a choice: Trade Darko for some talent or explain to Darko just what kind of situation he was in for.

I believe neither of those things happened. Darko was led to believe that playing time was right around the corner if he worked hard. But they lied.

So naturally at some point he said Fuck You and that was that. He was dealt for next to nothing!

That 1 Draft choice change the history of this franchise. I don't think we had Sheed at the time, but if we took Bosh does anyone really think we wouldn't have done the Sheed deal?

It's not like Larry Brown would have played Bosh so much that Joe would have assumed he didn't "need" Sheed.

I'm wondering if the pivotal move was Dumars trading Corliss and trying to second-guess the cap. What Dumars did -should- have been the right move long-term, but the NBA decided to give a bunch of salary cap relief to those teams that overextended themselves, so they didn't have to make the really hard sacrifices. It wasn't the right move short-term inasmuch as a 7-man rotation got worn down and beat.

And here we are again... Dumars making a big move with cap space in mind, in a year in which teams ought to be vulnerable. I'm wondering if the league is going to do some weirdo bailout to the detriment of the fiscally responsible.

Mxy, please tell me that won't happen.

Although - if all NBA teams were allowed to shed one contract due to the economy that would put a lot of other players on the free agent list.