:langlois:

The Pistons will not have Bird rights to McDyess. They will have to fit him under the cap.

How much of the cap room are you willing to give Dice?

What is his market value?

Which of the other bigs on the market would be an upgrade over re-signing him?

1 MILLION dollars!!!!

http://usedbooksblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/dr-evil.JPG

it would be an insult to pay him less than Kwame...but it would be a waste of capspace in my opinion, i'd love Dice as much as any other Pistonsfan, but we're rebuildung right now, we should use the money for better, younger frontcourt players... if we can do that and Dice wants to stay, and we still got space left, 2 years 6 mil something like that would be great

But seriously... aside from Boozer, Bosh and Lee (i thinks), what other bigs are on the market? I'm too lazy to look, and it would help with more thought out answers to 2 and 3. I do think he is still a quality player, and can play a solid role on this team.

I always think of him crying after getting knocked out of the playoffs. IMO, that's awesome that he feels that strong about the game, and his biggest flaw is his inability to make the players around him feel the same way (or maybe the players around him just suck like that).

it would be an insult to pay him less than Kwame...but it would be a waste of capspace in my opinion

That's Joe's dilemma, for sure.

Sources tell me he will retire.

Sources tell me he will retire.

Maybe we need a new front page tomorrow.

Sources tell me he will retire.

DrTre11?

In the shadows...

I doubt he retires.

Surely he has many options this off-season outside Detroit.

Boston, Lakers, Cleveland and Orlando are 4 teams I can think of that could use him off the bench. Throw in the Spurs and that's quite a list.

Dice doesn't look like he's slowing down. I hope we can pay him/keep him.

Well, if the cap comes down and we're left with something like $18 million (after paying for our draft pick) would we be better off...

Retaining Dice on a 3 year deal starting @ $5,000,000. Some may think that's excessive, but loyalty don't come cheap. And we could scale the deal so his salary decreases over the life of the contract.

Sign Josh Childress or some other swingman type for the bench. This is likely gonna cost $5-6 million.

So, now we've spent approx $10 million of our cap room. We've still got enough to possibly steal Millsap or Marvin Williams or trade for Haywood or Kaman.

Joe does have a lot of flexibility this off-season - he just has to find the best way possible to achieve whatever it is he's hoping to achieve.

Judging on Joe D and how he treated Billups (trading him where he wanted to go for less tham market value) I could see Joe giving Dice a big one year deal to "reward" him for his loyalty. I see a +/-8 mil salary and then resigning him after the 09-10 season for less.

I wonder if Dice has any front office aspirations? (like Lindsey did before his "trouble")

There certainly could be some "make good" opportunities for Dice after he retires, if he's interested.

we need two new starting bigman, not just one, Dice+Max off the bench would be nice, get rid off Sheed, Amir, Kwame...

I wonder if Dice has any front office aspirations? (like Lindsey did before his "trouble")

There certainly could be some "make good" opportunities for Dice after he retires, if he's interested.


Dyess doesn't greet me as someone interested in such things. It may be his 'Bama accent, but he comes off a bit....simple?

So, now we've spent approx $10 million of our cap room. We've still got enough to possibly steal Millsap or Marvin Williams or trade for Haywood or Kaman.


With the amount of money Utah has coming off the books (especially if Okur opts out), then I don't see why they wouldn't match any offer for Millsap.

Assuming Boozer walks, Millsap is probably their starting PF next year.

With the amount of money Utah has coming off the books (especially if Okur opts out), then I don't see why they wouldn't match any offer for Millsap.

Assuming Boozer walks, Millsap is probably their starting PF next year.
If okur opts out wouldn't there be a risk of of more money being lost? I highly doubt they'd want to lose Okur and Boozer together. Millsap can't make up for both of them. So they have to pay Boozer or Okur big money.

Honestly depending on what Okur would want from us, i'd love to have him replace Sheed in Detroit like he was originally supposed to.

Wasn't Okur always drifting outside too? I'd like a big that wants to play underneath. I'm not sure about all of that though, he may still get his boards and play D.

Utah has been pretty talented for a few years and won nothing BTW.

They've had Okur/Boozer/Ak47 up front with one of the best PGs in the league and one of the best coaches in the league for 4 straight years. They've also had a decent cast of role players too (Brewer/Harpring/Korver/Millsaip/Collins/Price/Hart/Giricek). What have they won?

What makes you think that type of front court is going to win for us?

What if you could grab Okur and Kamen? Okur does drift to the outside at times, but you'd have Kamen down low as a post guy. But you have to take into account that we all look favorably on Okur and forget the annoyances we had with him while he was here. I remember quite a few times where he would lay it up soft instead of just dunking it and he'd end up not being able to finish. I do like having a big that can stretch the D with outside shooting though.

I would be happy with Okur and Kamen on the offensive end. Does Okur have the foot speed to guard PF's every night?

Mostly I would worry about either guarding a good pick and roll.

Do any of you think that another team might offer Dice their MLE for ~ 2 years?

I bet someone offers it, yes. Like a Boston, Cavs, Spurs, etc.

The issue is he really belongs as a 6th man. he doesn't have the foot speed to stay with quicker PF's, but also can't take the pounding of 30 minutes a night guarding post players.

he needs to be paired with a good young defender up front (like Howard), or coming off the bench. I like him starting right now, but that is because we don't have a good young defender up front.

Wasn't Okur always drifting outside too? I'd like a big that wants to play underneath. I'm not sure about all of that though, he may still get his boards and play D.
Actually he rebounds pretty well, and i have no issue with a big who stretches the floor. He's also gotten almost as good as sheed in the post. also he shoots damn near 45 percent from 3, i can't knock that.

Just a guess...offensive boards aren't great cuz he's outside when it comes time to board.

i'll take his 2 offensive rebounds a game, about the same as maxiell who doesnt shoot 3's.

i'll take his 2 offensive rebounds a game, about the same as maxiell who doesnt shoot 3's.
Max plays quite a few less mpg though.

Max plays quite a few less mpg though.
Fair enough. Still live with Okur's game. I think his efficient 3 point shooting(more efficient than sheed), decent dribbling, and solid low post game offset his offensive rebounding issues and love for 3 pointer.

Would Okur seek the full MLE?

He's not somebody I'd 'overpay' for.

Would Okur seek the full MLE?

He's not somebody I'd 'overpay' for.

No, he would not seek the MLE, he's scheduled to make $9m next year, so if he opts out, that's a starting point for him, at minimum.

So with Okur and Boozer both looking for $10 million or close to that should Joe really take a serious look at them?

Surely there are cheaper options?

I know that Lee and Millsap are restricted but would New York or Utah match an offer of $8 million?

yes and yes.

And again, 10 mil for boozer is a dream and a joke. Try 13 as a start.

So you're willing to give Boozer $13 mil of our $18 mil, Hermy?

That doesn't leave much money for another big

So you're willing to give Boozer $13 mil of our $18 mil, Hermy?

That doesn't leave much money for another big


I'd rather not if there are better options available from other teams fire sales, but you aren't going to touch Boozer for under 12. Why would he opt out in the middle of an awful economy from a deal paying him 12.5 mil when only one team has both cap space and an intention of signing someone? Next year there will be something like 12 teams under the cap including some winning clubs. Get healthy and he may be worth even more.

Maybe he really wants to come here/get out of utah and will take less cash, I don't know, but I don't see it. Something is very, very fishy if he ends up here at a 10 mil per starting deal.

what's fishy about a guy wanting to take a few mil less to win rather than go to Memphis?

I'd say it's fishy because

a) Utah is just as good or better of a situation than Detroit, especially at $12m+

b) Boozer is a money-first guy, so if he takes less anywhere I would be suspicious

a) Utah is just as good or better of a situation than Detroit, especially at $12m+

b) Boozer is a money-first guy, so if he takes less anywhere I would be suspicious[/QUOTE]


Yuppers.

I agree with B.

I'm not so sure on A. What have they won with this better situation? Nothing. And the situation could get worse when they retain Millsaip (or they lose Okur and Boozer is forced to play center every night). There is nothing to keep him from 35 MPG here (unlike in Utah), and he probably knows that if he signs here he has a great shot at the finals (no reason to think with Boozer and another solid signing we aren't finals contenders). In Utah he's had 4 straight years of getting no where near the finals, plus his back up chipping away at his job. Is that really a better situation?

I'm with Gl'enn (Apparently I've fallen behind on current events, when did you discover your elven heritage, Glenn?) on option A. There's no way a rational argument can be made that Detroit offers a better chance to win than Utah. To call it a lateral move is generous. I would call it a step backwards.

Well, I agree with Chris - Utah has had a preety damn good team for the last few years and they haven't made the Finals.

And no one has mentioned this yet but: If Boozer comes here he's automatically the star player. He's the name on the marquee and surely that means endorsement dollars?

Like overstock.com commercials?

To answer the initial subject's question -- at the rate Dice is playing, someone's liable to give him the MLE if we don't. He's always been kinda weird about leaving money on the table, dating back to his Denver Phoenix back-to-Denver trade. We're the beneficiaries of that this time. I guess that's a good thing.


I'm with Gl'enn (Apparently I've fallen behind on current events, when did you discover your elven heritage, Glenn?)
Must've been the same time that Amare' did. :)


on option A. There's no way a rational argument can be made that Detroit offers a better chance to win than Utah. To call it a lateral move is generous. I would call it a step backwards.
Both teams are entering into uncertain ownership situations. Is Karen Davidson worse or better than Greg Miller?

Memo has two things going against him.... his age for a new contract and his lack of mobilty on defense.

and butterfingers

(his hands, not the candy ba...well...)

and his bad back.

This Darko guy on Memphis is a BAD MAN!

Memo and Darko together??? Oh baby

Should have drafted Bosh, or Wade - he could have been the third guard with Billups and Rip.

Fuck Chucky Atkins

Dice with another stellar night.

15 mil, no less.

Dice deserves the max for showing up every night, i'd rather pay him 1 year/15 mil and take our chances in *10 than blow the cap space on a guy like Boozer...(if we can't get something done with trades)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-090321-22


Dice's new salary-cap number for the Pistons is a mere $600,532, which helped Detroit create an extra $2 million in savings against the cap for this summer thanks to the league's complicated formula for calculating cap holds for a team's own free agents.

The assumption, of course, is that McDyess will be compensated for his selflessness in the summer when he returns to free agency, with Detroit regaining McDyess' Larry Bird rights when he re-signed with them on Dec. 9. The Pistons thus possess the ability give him a raise without restrictions even if they use up their projected $17 million in cap room this summer on other free agents.

mistake?

I would think so because i don't think you can have bird rights if you were released.

The answer is simple:

Whatever he wants.

i wish he was 25 because although he is PLAYING LIKE IT, reality is that he has 1 maybe 2 more years left.

but his level of play right now is ridiculous and one of the most remarkable things i've witnessed in recent memory; a 35 year old guy who has had MULTIPLE devastating knee injuries, seems to be pulling a 'benjamin button' and elevating his level of play as he gets 'older'.

From memory there is no way we have his Bird Rights.

Denver would have had his Bird Rights this off-season - but they released him.

Therefore no one has his Bird Rights.

That's correct, right?

Sources tell me he will retire.


McDyess maintains that two more seasons is the "max" he'll play, no matter how the rest of Detroit's tumultuous season plays out.

"Definitely one more," he said.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-090321-22

Ok, I'll throw this out:

Let's assume Joe pays Dice for his loyalty and work ethic and passion etc

Assume that Dice gets a $4 million dollar thank you. It's only for 1 season though, so we can still have some cap space in 2010.

That would leave us with approx $14 million to spend on free agents.

Does anyone see us going after Boozer if that's what we've got?

Maybe we try for David Lee - starting at $8 million or so. That gets us a young big and we've still got $6 million left over.

Maybe Joe goes for a trade, using Amir, Kwame or Maxiell as the bait - that would allow us to take back a contract close to $10 million.

Would people be happy if Joe came out of the off-season with Chris Kaman, David Lee, Antonio McDyess and a couple of rookies (3 well positioned picks)?


C: Kaman
F: Lee
F: Prince
G: Rip
G: Stuckey

G: Bynum
G: AA
F: Rookie (1st Round Pick)
F: Dice
C: Kwame
F: Maxiell
G: Rookie (2nd Round Pick)
F: Rookie (2nd Round Pick)
F: Sharpe

Sharpe, Dice, Kwame, Bynum and Maxiell all would be expiring, allowing us to shop some of them in a trade or we could use the space we'd have in 2010 to grab a quality 6th Man.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-090321-22


Fucking pussy source.

Ok, I'll throw this out:

Let's assume Joe pays Dice for his loyalty and work ethic and passion etc

Assume that Dice gets a $4 million dollar thank you. It's only for 1 season though, so we can still have some cap space in 2010.

That would leave us with approx $14 million to spend on free agents.

Does anyone see us going after Boozer if that's what we've got?

Maybe we try for David Lee - starting at $8 million or so. That gets us a young big and we've still got $6 million left over.

Maybe Joe goes for a trade, using Amir, Kwame or Maxiell as the bait - that would allow us to take back a contract close to $10 million.

Would people be happy if Joe came out of the off-season with Chris Kaman, David Lee, Antonio McDyess and a couple of rookies (3 well positioned picks)?


C: Kaman
F: Lee
F: Prince
G: Rip
G: Stuckey

G: Bynum
G: AA
F: Rookie (1st Round Pick)
F: Dice
C: Kwame
F: Maxiell
G: Rookie (2nd Round Pick)
F: Rookie (2nd Round Pick)
F: Sharpe

Sharpe, Dice, Kwame, Bynum and Maxiell all would be expiring, allowing us to shop some of them in a trade or we could use the space we'd have in 2010 to grab a quality 6th Man.


I like where you are going with this. The only gripe I have is $8m won't get Lee, IMO. I think it does get you a lovely fruit basket and a thank you card from Donnie Walsh, however.

And Kaman looks like a total gump since he came back (fitness-wise).

With the economy the way it is, who has the ability to pay Lee more than 8mil and would actually do so? I could only imagine a S&T with the Knicks and someone who has a big expiring contract.

I like where you are going with this. The only gripe I have is $8m won't get Lee, IMO. I think it does get you a lovely fruit basket and a thank you card from Donnie Walsh, however.

And Kaman looks like a total gump since he came back (fitness-wise).

I've read quotes from Kamen saying the injury prevented him from working out like he needed to in order to stay in shape. He's also playing the rest of the year in pain until the scar tissue is gone.

I'd do an Amir for Kamen deal in a heartbeat.

I also like Lee (my only hesitation was pairing him with Boozer since neither is a true center). That would be a solid front court IMO.

If we had a C like Kamen, a slightly undersized PF wouldn't be as bad. Even Max would get a boost from playing next to someone like him.

i'm not sure anymore if i really want Kaman, i've read somewhere he's got a 15% tradekicker, so he would get almost 37 mil for the next three years, more than 12 a year, im not sure he's worth that amount especially when he can't stay healthy at all...

Ouch. That trade kicker does put a little bit of a damper on things. Anywhere to see if that's 100% true?

Why does anyone signing with the Clippers put in a trade kicker?

If Arnie Kander blesses him as ok, so do I. The Clippers have historically had the worst training/conditioning folks. It took 'em quite awhile to figure out that it'd be worthwhile to actually preserve their investment by even having such people.

I actually went on RGM (for the first time in, like, forever) to the CBA board where Larry Coon hangs out, to find out if Marc Stein was correct. Initial consensus seems to be that Stein was on crack.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2641609

Chris Kaman has signed a multiyear contract extension with the Los Angeles Clippers, and a source with knowledge of the negotiations said the deal was for five years and $52.5 million.

The extension, which was agreed to and signed late Friday night, takes effect for the 2007-08 season and includes incentive clauses that could bring it to $55 million.

And it also includes a "trade kicker" that would give the center a 15 percent raise -- a maximum value of $7.5 million -- if he were dealt to another team. For Kaman, that's insurance he'll be staying in L.A., or at worst, compensated nicely if he's ever dealt.

He could probably waive that.

NOTE: If Kaman is making $12 mil then my idea is Done.

We'd have $6 mil left in cap room. Throw in Amir's salary and that's $9 mil.

+ 25% ... it would be extremely close if his salary for next season was $12 mil. If it's any higher than 12 then it doesn't work unless we include someone else to match dollars.

Unless they take Kwame and not Amir. Kwame makes a million more than Amir.

They may prefer Kwame and a 2nd. Amir would require development, something they need to devote to Jordan right now.

So it's a deal?

:stein:


Have to recant one thing from our ode to Antonio McDyess in the last Weekend Dime about what a rare bargain he's been in Detroit's increasingly endangered season.

The Pistons did not regain their Larry Bird signing rights to McDyess when he rejoined them a month after the early-November trade that sent him to Denver with Chauncey Billups for Allen Iverson. McDyess lost them when he agreed to a buyout with the Nuggets, before agreeing to re-sign in Detroit for a pro-rated share of the league's veteran minimum when he was eligible to get a two-year deal from Detroit starting at $1.9 million.

The Pistons, then, will indeed have to cut into some of their projected salary-cap space this summer if they want to bring McDyess back, after Dice forfeited nearly $9 million remaining salary in his November buyout.

(Chalk it up as the umpteenth salary-cap stumble we've made over the past 15 years, no matter how hard we try to never fumble on cap matters. A proverbial cyberspace hat tip to David Lord of DallasBasketball.com for catching the gaffe.)

Yet McDyess -- who admits he has fears "every day" about the Pistons missing the playoffs -- remains convinced that he can recoup a good chunk of the money he's sacrificed with his increasingly resilient play at 34 even if something unexpectedly denies him a new deal in Detroit. Or even if the leaguewide economic crunch makes free-agent bucks scarce in July.

"I feel like I can," McDyess said.

Every time I read this thread title I want to answer "MONEY, and lots of it" So there I did it. I feel better now.

72...I hope he's right.

So he sacrificed $9 million...

I fear we're not just gonna over pay him, we're gonna give him too many years too.

A flat $5 million deal for 5 years could be possible...

Actually, that's fair. He deserves a $5 mil/3 year deal so we add the extra years and cash to make up for his sacrifice

So he sacrificed $9 million...

I fear we're not just gonna over pay him, we're gonna give him too many years too.

A flat $5 million deal for 5 years could be possible...

Actually, that's fair. He deserves a $5 mil/3 year deal so we add the extra years and cash to make up for his sacrifice

The five year part scares me quite a bit. I would be okay with 15 million over 3 years, but much more than that is dangerous. Then again, the guy is playing like a stud when there isn't much to be playing for, which maybe indicates that he has a lot left in the tank.

See, that's the problem.

Dice has actually earned the 3 years and $15 million.

So what else do we give him for the sacrifice he made? Dude gave up $9 million and then signed with us for the minimum when he could have gone to better teams. He was beyond loyal - he was stupid loyal.

You gotta give him something. Since I don't think he's the type that wants to become a coach, or a front office guy the only way left to pay him what he's owed is to overpay him.

I would prefer a shorter deal but his play gets him the 3 year contract. So, we sign him for 5 years and structure his contract to actually decrease every season (there is a maximum limit it can decrease, just like a maximum increase).

That means that his highest paying seasons are 2010 and 2011 - based on his play of late I'd say he'd be worth the investment.

Now, I'm not sure what amount he'd need to get as a starting salary in my proposed contract, but we've got almost $18 mil in cap space and the free agent class ain't that great. It could be done.

So what else do we give him for the sacrifice he made? Dude gave up $9 million and then signed with us for the minimum when he could have gone to better teams. He was beyond loyal - he was stupid loyal.
This isn't the first instance of stupid-loyal like that from Dice. He was very committed to Denver when they were the worst team of the era. When he came here, one concern I had was if he was afraid of the playoffs.

When he came here, one concern I had was if he was afraid of the playoffs.

Well if he is, then maybe coming back here makes even more sense.

That might actually be true Mxy.

He says all the right things but he did have an opportunity to go to Boston or Cleveland and came back.

Why wouldn't he have gone to Boston? Defending Champs, got KG, Pierce and Ray Allen to handle the heavy lifting plus they have some decent role players. It's not like he would be sitting on the bench doing nothing for his ring opportunity - Dice would have played.

I never even thought he was scared - Damn!

Oh, btw - there is nothing stopping us from doing a Cliff Robinson to Dice (you know, sign the guy and then trade his ass). I'm sure Dice is gonna get offers this off-season - maybe we can do a sign and trade?

He could probably waive that.

NOTE: If Kaman is making $12 mil then my idea is Done.

We'd have $6 mil left in cap room. Throw in Amir's salary and that's $9 mil.

+ 25% ... it would be extremely close if his salary for next season was $12 mil. If it's any higher than 12 then it doesn't work unless we include someone else to match dollars.

Unless they take Kwame and not Amir. Kwame makes a million more than Amir.
He'd prolly be thrilled to go back home (waiving the tk).... I recall reading a piece where Kaman sid he didn't like the phony lifestyle in L.A.

I like the idea of a post player that can hook with either hand... it means he can be a goto factor on the blocks without having his shot blocked.
His current conditioning could be a blessing for the asking price of a deal.
Milsap & Kaman works.

This are the type of things I would like Dumars to do this summer.

Washington gets the #1 pick.

Washington trades the rights to the #1 pick (Blake Griffin), Etan Thomas, Darius Songaila, and Oleksiy Pecherov for Amir Johnson, the rights to the Pistons 1st rounder (approximately 16th), and a future conditional 1st round pick.

This would get Washington under the luxury tax, and give the Pistons a future young stud to build around. Griffin's the only player in this year's draft I would make this trade for, and Washington's the only team that would consider this.

Pistons trade Kwame Brown to Oklahoma City for Chucky Atkins, the rights to Minnesota's 2nd round draft pick, and the Pistons 2012 2nd rounder.

Pistons waive Atkins, save an additional $3,240,000 under the cap.

Pistons sign McDyess to a one year, $9,000,000 contract. While it's only for one year, this would allow Dice to recoup all of his money while giving him a no-trade clause in the Devean George mode.

Pistons become:

Stuckey/Rip/Prince/Griffin/Dice with Bynum/Afflalo/Maxiell/Thomas/Songaila/Pecherov/Sharpe with $5 million to spend on additional bench help for that season (wing reserve). It would also give the Pistons about $8 to $9 million under the cap (assuming a $52 to $53 million cap). You could also substitute Mike James for Songaila, which would cost the Pistons about $1.6 million in cap room in 2009 but cut $4.8 million from the 2010 potential cap room.

Why would the Wizards trade Blake Griffin? I suspect they'd sooner trade Caron Butler, and let some other team ink out his probable extension after 2010. Am I missing something? <confused>

Agree with Mxy - surely they're not gonna trade the #1 pick in the Draft for Amir, #16 and a future 1st?

I was thinking more along the lines of what Kstat has been preaching: Haywood and their pick for a second rounder or something like that.

Nate (Neptune City, N.J.): If the Pistons re-sign McDyess and pick up Bynum’s option, do you think Joe D will give them a well-deserved raise for their outstanding play? And if Boozer opts out and the Pistons go after him, why offer him a max contract when they can make Millsap, who’s under seven figures this season, an offer for much less money?

:langlois:
Langlois: The Pistons will pick up Bynum’s option, but that means they’re obligated to the terms of the contract – there’s no negotiating on how much he’ll be paid. Bynum’s chance to get a raise will come in the summer of 2010 when he’ll be a restricted free agent. McDyess will be getting a raise, seeing as how he signed for the prorated veteran’s minimum when he came back to the Pistons. My guess is he’ll be signing for something around the mid-level exception (about $5.6 million), which will also be close to the amount he gave up when he agreed to his buyout from Denver.

Why would the Wizards trade Blake Griffin? I suspect they'd sooner trade Caron Butler, and let some other team ink out his probable extension after 2010. Am I missing something? <confused>

yeah, they wouldn't trade Griffin. They'd move Butler for cap space. Unfortunately Butler wouldn't fit well (too many guard scorers again). We could do a three way deal that nets us a big man though (with a team needing Butler).

We could do a three way deal that nets us a big man though (with a team needing Butler).

Bosh?

Would be nice. If they took Aldridge they would have a decent core:

Calderon, Kapono, Butler, Marion?, Bargnani, Aldridge.

So the Raptors would essentially be trading Bosh for Caron Butler? What do we give to Washington?

Amir and #16?

They can replace Butler with a cheaper wing at #16 and hope Amir pans out with solid PT.

cap space, ball hair, and a hearty "fuck you".

18 mil - 5 mil for Dice - 1.5 for 1st round pick = 11.5 mil, that could be all what's left, maybe we can add one good frontcourt guy, no one will take Maxiell, maybe Amir and Kwame got some value...

If we did the Amir + pick for Butler, then Butler to Raps for Bosh, where would that leave us capwise? Enough room to grab a backup wing and another big? We'd have Max backing up Dice at PF (or the other way around), and Bosh starting at C with Kwame backing him up. I'd rather have Bosh at PF with a true C though. Any way we get Butler AND Haywood out of Washington? Not sure what else we'd have to give up, but I'd rather have Bosh and Haywood out there than Bosh and Max for sure.

Bosh and Haywood to Detroit (+22 mil) - Amir and Max (7-8 mil) = -14 mil in space.

that puts us at 47 million (without Dyess). if we could get him to sign for 4-5 mil we'd still have room to get a MLE type wing.

Or, use the 12 mil in space to sign David Lee and our draft picks. We wouldn't have #16, so it would be possible for sure. Draft a backup SF with our first pick.

PG Stuckey/Bynum
SG RIP/AA
SF Tay/early 2nd rounder
PF Lee/Max
C Bosh/Kwame

It would be nice to have a true center next to Lee or Bosh, but since they can both guard centers neither has to be on Yao/Shaq/etc full time. It would be like when we had Wallace x2 and they could take turns down there.

If we could move Max in that deal (to either team) we'd have space to bring back Dyess too.

Ok, I understand the reason behind Washington dealing Butler (taxes/money)

But why would they want to play rape victim?

Toronto get Caron Butler, we get Chris Bosh and they get fucked! Amir and #16 is not gonna get it done. I doubt included Maxiell is gonna help, or some 2nd round picks.

Why wouldn't Washington simply deal for Bosh? They could always still dump Haywood and anyone else they wanted to for nothing - but would have Bosh, Jamison and Arenas to push for the playoffs.

I think Bosh is a goldmine for any team that can grab him - dude has played his ass off for years with poor results - imagine how much harder he'd worked if he actually saw some positive results of his hard work...