So are we going to give the big 3 a few billion...25ish just to keep them afloat? Then they come back to us (taxpayers) for more in a few months?

Should we let them go bankrupt so they can restructure and actually get their house in order?

I want Detroit to succeed without being subsidized.

I think bankruptcy might get messy. The LA Times had an article on Monday about how many people nationwide might be directly affected if the big 3 go belly up. I'm not sure how such a bankruptcy might play out, but there's a helluva lot of smaller suppliers looking in the mail for checks based on work rendered. If bankruptcy frees GM, Ford, and Chrysler from paying on that work, you might have saved the big 3, but killed the smaller 350.

The type of restructuring that enables the Big Three and friends to emerge as champions of industry involves screwing current workers and retirees, on a much larger scale than what the airline industry did. The taxpayers costs of their restructuing, because of having to support all the screwed businesses and people in various ways, could easily prove to be more than the bailout. Of course, if the bailout doesn't work, we'll have those costs + the costs of the failed bailout.

Oh, check out:

http://www.freep.com/article/20081117/COL14/811170379

I say you let these fucks go the way of the dodo, er, the Edsel. Could they have done something to save themselves? Do the Japanese have unfair advantages? Every dog has its day. We saw them teetering in the late '70s and early '80s. The big gas guzzling shits and redneck powered pickups saved them for awhile, but Detroit and the state of Michigan never diversified, and never axed the Big 3 to do anything to stay ahead of the competition. These guys have been going out of business for 30 years now.

We subsidized Big Oil for a generation, doing lots of things to keep gas prices artificially low (e.g. the Gulf War), to avoid paying the environmental and the infrastructure costs to offset Big Oil's impact as most other countries were doing. Remember, in 1981, average gas price was $1.35/gallon. Adjusting for inflation, after 20-odd years, that same gallon of gas should have been about ~$3.10/gallon. The average price of gas just after 9/11 and before Iraq in 2002? $1.35/gallon.

As people lived longer than anyone dreamed (at a greater cost than anyone dreamed), legacy costs shot through the roof. So, The Big Three went from selling K-Cars to bigass trucks, architecting itself around Big Oil. They're far from the only enterprise that's fueled by cheap gas. Suburban and exurban development doesn't happen with rising gas prices. Ecowarriors in L.A. bitch at the automakers for their smog, but they're the ones expanding at 30% per generation in a desert with no end in sight (and no water, for that matter).

The Big Three's saving grace is that they didn't fuck their employees and retirees through staged bankruptcies when they had the chance. Unions sacrificed their young to align current/future employee costs with non-union shops, and even stepped to the plate in dealing with healthcare. Ecowarriors claim that peak oil and more foreign demand made such price hikes inevitable. But as current events show, that inevitability shouldn't have spiked prices that much. Bush fucked them and us with Iraq and laissez-faire dollar policy.

The competition isn't doing so hot, realistically. Toyota's had projected flat profits at best,and they've historically been a lot more supported (some have said "subsidized") by the Japanese government than the Big Three ever were by Uncle Sam. Ever since Ralph Nader and the ecowarriors, the Big Three lobbyists have been lousy and on the defensive, and the Big Three blows research dollars on all sorts of government-required safety innovation that doesn't really help save many lives.

the Big Three blows research dollars on all sorts of government-required safety innovation that doesn't really help save many lives.

Aren't foreign manufacturers who sell here subject to the same requirements? I always had the idea the playing field was level in that regard.

Historically, much of the safety innovation came from the Big Three and was fanned out through suppliers in various ways. The Big Three are much easier to legally entangle here because the bulk of their R&D is done domestically. So, they've always been the ones with the gun on their head here. It's not like the Germans don't care about safety, but they learned that real safety wasn't just about car design, but keeping alcoholic and poorly trained drivers off the road. (That's why they get to have the Autobahn. :) )

I don't want to make it sound like it's ALL that their research labs have done -- check out telematics. But, it's been a really large amount over time given the relatively-low ROI on anything beyond seatbelts and airbags. Much of today's safety innovation involved compensating for legislatively-mandated unsafe design, and has been a "net zero". The environmental requirements to make cars lighter kicked in just as safety standards were jacked up, and you end up with "crumple zones" making up for plastic/aluminum vs. steel.

The relationship between the Big Three and Uncle Sam is adversarial when compared to relationships that most automakers have with their governments. The Japan MITI will bend over backwards for the automotive keiretsu (and even "nouveau riche" Honda) and South Korea for its chaebols, in ways that the U.S. won't approach. Renault, Daimler-Benz, and were part-owned by their governments at strategic points in a way that just doesn't happen here. The Big Three are America's pincushion for their problems with Big Oil.

Historically, much of the safety innovation came from the Big Three and was fanned out through suppliers in various ways. The Big Three are much easier to legally entangle here because the bulk of their R&D is done domestically. So, they've always been the ones with the gun on their head here. It's not like the Germans don't care about safety, but they learned that real safety wasn't just about car design, but keeping alcoholic and poorly trained drivers off the road. (That's why they get to have the Autobahn. :) )

If you want to sell a car here, you still have to meet the same standards whether you're VW or Toyota or GM. Where is the innovation shortcut for the foreign companies? The Germans may not care about safety but they still have to clear the same bar.


I don't want to make it sound like it's ALL that their research labs have done -- check out telematics. But, it's been a really large amount over time given the relatively-low ROI on anything beyond seatbelts and airbags. Much of today's safety innovation involved compensating for legislatively-mandated unsafe design, and has been a "net zero". The environmental requirements to make cars lighter kicked in just as safety standards were jacked up, and you end up with "crumple zones" making up for plastic/aluminum vs. steel.


I don't see where this is a bad thing. Lighter, more fuel-efficient cars with lower emissions are a net positive. Again, the foreign cars have to clear the same bar in those areas. The argument that these are special handicaps for the american companies seems weak to me.


The relationship between the Big Three and Uncle Sam is adversarial when compared to relationships that most automakers have with their governments. The Japan MITI will bend over backwards for the automotive keiretsu (and even "nouveau riche" Honda) and South Korea for its chaebols, in ways that the U.S. won't approach. Renault, Daimler-Benz, and were part-owned by their governments at strategic points in a way that just doesn't happen here. The Big Three are America's pincushion for their problems with Big Oil.
I can see this being argued from the standpoint of labor and tariffs/trade. Outside of that... not so much.

I think we should do whatever Uncle Mxy says we should do.

Hopefully Barack will tap Mxy for Paulsen's job, Mxy owns.

My dad retired from fords and said he could lose his retirement.

If you want to sell a car here, you still have to meet the same standards whether you're VW or Toyota or GM. Where is the innovation shortcut for the foreign companies? The Germans may not care about safety but they still have to clear the same bar.
And historically, they did so by following the Big Three's lead. Many safety standards don't necessarily make a lot of sense from even a compassionate beancounter angle (if such an oxymoron exists), if you consider fatalities and injuries. Once you get much past seatbelts and airbags, the automakers are compelled to spend a fortune for every life saved, while other aspects of vehicle driving that have more bang-for-the-buck were largely put aside for a long time.


I don't see where this is a bad thing. Lighter, more fuel-efficient cars with lower emissions are a net positive. Again, the foreign cars have to clear the same bar in those areas. The argument that these are special handicaps for the american companies seems weak to me.
First off, are you really safer in vehicles made from weaker materials (for those components not meant to be flexible)? It's not a net-positive if you're dead. It's taken the airline industry a long time to really embrace composites rather than titanium and steel, and they have less collision potential.

Right after "Unsafe At Any Speed", most foreign automakers' innovations particular to our market was knockoff work from us. The Big Three spent the money financing the restraint and crash systems, and everyone gained. (It's harder to patent and protect a design evaluation process than a widget.). It was one of the things that enabled foreign companies to even enter our market in a serious way. .


I can see this being argued from the standpoint of labor and tariffs/trade. Outside of that... not so much.
In the 1990s, our government's "big deal" investment in fuel economy was a total of $1 billion for PNGV over 8 years. By contrast, the Japanese spent more than that every year on their automakers for equivalent fuel economy and emissions control work, and that's -aside- from the hybrid. I don't necessarily think that it's good long-term business for our government to "own" auto companies, but the Big Three have been shunned throughout this generation, relative to the "what's good for GM is good for the country" days.

Oh, and I don't want Paulsen's job, just his money. :)

First off, are you really safer in vehicles made from weaker materials (for those components not meant to be flexible)? It's not a net-positive if you're dead. It's taken the airline industry a long time to really embrace composites rather than titanium and steel, and they have less collision potential.

Overall safety isn't measured in terms of weaker or stronger materials but in the context of design and safety features for the whole vehicle. In that sense, yes, it's a net positive if the safety bottom line remains the same (or improves) and lighter weight makes them more efficient.

Maybe your car is more likely to be totaled but you're not necessarily more likely to get dead in today's vehicles.

Ecowarriors in L.A. bitch at the automakers for their smog, but they're the ones expanding at 30% per generation in a desert with no end in sight (and no water, for that matter).
Saw an rx350 Hybrid today on Ventura Blvd. (in the beautiful San Fernando Valley) with a WOOD AND LEATHER steering wheel. Also a dude in a Prius with some insane sound system, cranked to 11.

I keep bitching about Desalination plants. Prolly never gonna happen. When the Colorado finally dries up, we'll simply ambush a weakened Michigan and take the Great Lakes.

Illinois will attack with the Cubs, and they'll put up a good fight..... for a short while.

Wisconsin will attack with cheese. But, since California cheese is better, they will fail.

By default, Ohio sucks at everything. So there is no fear.

Most of NY's power base is in the southeast of the state. By the time they realize what's happening Arnie will have "pleased" Hillary several times over. Since she's never been boned by a real man, she'll turn against her constituents and fight for us.

Our only concern is Minnesota, birthplace of MoTown. Out govt will have to bribe MoTown with $$$$$ to work with us. Because MoTown Owns, once he is paid in full Minnesota will not be a problem.

And there you have it. By this time in 2011 I'll be sipping Brita- filtered Lake Superior aqua. Delicious!

Overall safety isn't measured in terms of weaker or stronger materials but in the context of design and safety features for the whole vehicle. In that sense, yes, it's a net positive if the safety bottom line remains the same (or improves) and lighter weight makes them more efficient.
Consider measuring safety in terms of life and limb lost due to safety factors as a function of miles for the particular class of vehicle.

By such measurement standards, the automakers really haven't improved much since the big steel boxes of the 1970s. Most improvements in safety have correlated to changes in enforcement laws (seat belts, alcohol) than anything. (Non-uniform state laws make this easy to spot.) "Features" that aren't seatbelts and airbags (and maybe ESC too, but a lot of the instability results from lack of weight or sucky weight distribution) don't amount to big leaps, but burn tons of cash to implement per life saved.

The cars COULD have improved in safety a fair bit. But a lot of safety R&D was simply to compensate for unsafe materials changes made in the name of "efficiency", and disproportionately shouldered by the Big Three to the benefit of foreign car companies. Still, we lean on domestic automakers and the Big Three in particular for ever-improved "safety", even as the we want it light, even as the last "really big" domestic safety defect came from a Japanese tire company not warrantied by the automaker, even as aggregate road safety hasn't changed much. Meanwhile, other governments subsidize and protect their automakers and don't turn them into a proxy for Big Oil.

If you want to make today's designs safer, replace a lot of the composite materials with steel and do modern design verification. Few people really do that -- roll bars are largely an after-market thing. In fact, the prevailing safety mythology by insurance companies and the law is that slower is safer, despite counterexamples like the Autobahn. Automakers add to the myths occasionally by selling safety "features" that don't amount to much (ABS, which has nearly killed me as often as it's saved me -- gotta love faulty brake sensors). It's tough to have a reasonable conversation on the matter.

And it's kinda moot, seeing as how the Big Three CEOs fucked up in their testimonies to Congress. <sigh> Didn't anyone check out Lee Iacocca's accounts of testifying before Congress on such matters? <groan>

It's amazing how fucking obedient the people in this county are to the corporate media.
30 Billions is an outrage , 5 Trillion goes without notice or is called necessary.

When there is no more room in Arkansas, the stupid will walk the earth

It's called a paper tiger!

It does seem odd that they pushed that $700B for Wall Street through lickity split, but when the auto companies ask for $25B to help working class people keep their jobs/homes, they suddenly find their religion.

Lindsey Graham says he's got BMW to worry about in his home state. "How can I go to BMW and tell them that I'm helping their competitors?"

HELLO?

These southern legislators have a lot of foreign interests that they are looking out for.

It's amazing how fucking obedient the people in this county are to the corporate media.
30 Billions is an outrage , 5 Trillion goes without notice or is called necessary.

When there is no more room in Arkansas, the stupid will walk the earth

It's called a paper tiger!
The Big Three have been demonized for a generation, over big oil issues. Now they're getting demonized over something new and topical -- the Wall Street bailouts that don't seem to have had much of an impact. (Of course, it may be the case that they saved us from a lot worse -- this ISN'T 15 or 20% unemployment after all, but it's too early to say.)

Some of this is just stupidity on the part of the automakers. Some of it involves the automakers being forced to be relatively nice to their employees due to unions (the Democratic stronghold that Democrats like to piss on, and they wonder how those infamous Reagan Democrats emerged...).

Fundamentally, though, Big Oil is just bigger than Big Auto, and has its own league of nations in a way that most businesses would drool over. They won the hearts and minds of folks with Carter's defeat (Anderson's too :) ), and we never held anyone's feet or our feet to the fire to shake our dependence on them -- except the automakers. We just did a ton of things to try and keep prices cheap to fuel bad habits, until Bush fucked that up by pissing in their turf and pissing the dollar away. Now it's a shitty situation.

Whew, I though Mxy was about to thrash me.

I'm still not in the clear, yet.

Anyone know what the pay scale looks like for an auto worker these days?

I tend to agree with the peeps who say it's just a temporary bailout. The Auto industry has been declining for decades and this won't fix anything.

It does seem odd that they pushed that $700B for Wall Street through lickity split, but when the auto companies ask for $25B to help working class people keep their jobs/homes, they suddenly find their religion.

Lindsey Graham says he's got BMW to worry about in his home state. "How can I go to BMW and tell them that I'm helping their competitors?"

HELLO?

These southern legislators have a lot of foreign interests that they are looking out for.
Lindsey Graham also has a brand new Chrysler plant in Ladson, SC.

Anyone know what the pay scale looks like for an auto worker these days?

I tend to agree with the peeps who say it's just a temporary bailout. The Auto industry has been declining for decades and this won't fix anything.
It hasn't been declining overseas, not until the global economy meltdown.
It's difficult to say with Chrysler owing to the Damiler thing, but Ford and GM international sales has been going along fairly well for quite awhile -- ups and downs, but nothing like the domestic market. The #1 vehicle in China is GM truck. Ford's been tops in Britain and Latin America. Their long-term issues with domestic sales have been uniquely domestic.

Lindsey Graham also has a brand new Chrysler plant in Ladson, SC.


The fact that a brand new auto plant of any kind exists in the USA is really odd.

Seems like they could have gotten a really good deal on an existing one, don'tchathink?

Is Dingell losing his chairman spot to Waxman, good or bad?

I can't stand enviornmentalists (especially the defigured Henry Waxman). At least Dingell had our state's best interest.

Is Dingell losing his chairman spot to Waxman, good or bad?

I can't stand enviornmentalists (especially the defigured Henry Waxman). At least Dingell had our state's best interest.


Bad for Michigan, bad for conservitives, good for enviroment.

The Big Three have been demonized for a generation, over big oil issues. Now they're getting demonized over something new and topical -- the Wall Street bailouts that don't seem to have had much of an impact. (Of course, it may be the case that they saved us from a lot worse -- this ISN'T 15 or 20% unemployment after all, but it's too early to say.)

If you think the bailouts will save us from a lot worse, you have no idea what the fundamental causes were of the current problem. (Hint, the same artificiality of wealth creation that were purposed as the solution ) PS. I know people like to bring up 15-20% unemployment during the great depression as the standard, but that completely ignores that we had a much more agarian society that didn't employ as many people as we do now. 10% unemployment in our modern society is a crisis level. There is also the issue of disigneous statistics, a lot of people are employed but in povety..And unlike the previous depression, we have a negative savings rate. Money isn't just being destroyed in equities , it's being destroyed in things with real value, PROPERTY.
I don't even want to think about the possibilities of a collapse in the global import-export supplies sitting on docks going no where, ships in port unable to move cargo. Thats when stores go empty and people freak right the hell out, we have mobs of Arkansas in the streets.



Some of this is just stupidity on the part of the automakers. Some of it involves the automakers being forced to be relatively nice to their employees due to unions (the Democratic stronghold that Democrats like to piss on, and they wonder how those infamous Reagan Democrats emerged...).I'm not talking about that, and I don't disagree. I am speaking more of on the social aspect. People can't identify the wallstreet bailouts as any thing but an abstract topic. They understand the auto's though. If they understood wallstreet, this would seem meaningless in comparison. We have the greatest wholesale theft in world history going on and everyone wants to talk about the AutoCompanies that have been falling apart for decades.
Priorities?



Fundamentally, though, Big Oil is just bigger than Big Auto, and has its own league of nations in a way that most businesses would drool over. They won the hearts and minds of folks with Carter's defeat (Anderson's too :) ), and we never held anyone's feet or our feet to the fire to shake our dependence on them -- except the automakers. We just did a ton of things to try and keep prices cheap to fuel bad habits, until Bush fucked that up by pissing in their turf and pissing the dollar away. Now it's a shitty situation.
It's as I predicted, deflation will bring down fuel costs, but no one will have a job or a home.
The only concept I can't grasp is whether or not we see hyperinflation from the massive amounts of money in the multitrillion bailouts. If the Fed moves rates to negative I'm digging a damn pillbox.

Bad for Michigan, bad for conservitives, good for enviroment.


So does Waxman taking over signal the end of SUV's?

So is the truck we sell to China the same truck we buy? I have to get my vehicles smog checked every other year here in CA.

If you think the bailouts will save us from a lot worse, you have no idea what the fundamental causes were of the current problem.
I said it was too early to say. Don't read much into that. I just bought a lottery ticket. I could be a millionaire, but it's too early to say. I'm not holding my breath... :)


I'm not talking about that, and I don't disagree. I am speaking more of on the social aspect. People can't identify the wallstreet bailouts as any thing but an abstract topic. They understand the auto's though. If they understood wallstreet, this would seem meaningless in comparison. We have the greatest wholesale theft in world history going on and everyone wants to talk about the AutoCompanies that have been falling apart for decades.
Priorities?
Largely agreed. But, judging from what I hear from a lot of folks, they don't REALLY understand the auto companies nearly as well as they think they do. They just feel more of a relationship since they own and drive a car.

I feel the big 3 are burdened with their decisions to sign labor agreements that really hurt their ability to make a profit and a good car at the same time.

I wasn't too familiar with what type of pensions retirees were making, since I don't have any family members who worked in the auto industry, but when I heard that workers get 60% of their pay and all their health benefits when they retire, I nearly shit myself...

They shouldn't be getting even 20%, let alone 60%, and if you have to rely on your pension to meet your lifestyle, than DON'T RETIRE, and you'll get 100% of your pay!!!

Maybe it's not really 60% (I got that figure from hear/say), but still...

Regardless, they agreed to the contract with the UAW, so they have nobody to blame but themselves.

I wasn't too familiar with what type of pensions retirees were making, since I don't have any family members who worked in the auto industry, but when I heard that workers get 60% of their pay and all their health benefits when they retire, I nearly shit myself...

They shouldn't be getting even 20%, let alone 60%, and if you have to rely on your pension to meet your lifestyle, than DON'T RETIRE, and you'll get 100% of your pay!!!
401ks and significant tax-free retirement savings with a larger degree of employer independence simply didn't exist at the point that most traditional pension plans were established. It was harder to set aside money sufficient to retire on. Employers were keen on keeping their employees loyal, so tied pension plans and vesting to service with the company. Folks routinely would sacrificed base pay at the beginning, relative to equivalent jobs without a retirement plan, in exchange for that pension in the end.

The issue with employer pension and medical plans are that people live a lot longer than the actuaries expected. Most pensions were set up based on the idea that only ~60% of beneficiaries would live to age 65, then many would die soon afterwards. Now we're seeing ~80% of beneficiaries live to age 65, and living ever-longer after that, with truly obscene costs for life-extending medical stuff for those last few years. Also, over time, those pension plans would amount to a huge pile of money, and be targetted and sucked off of in various ways (much like Social Security is).

Don't retire? Lots of auto employees were given early retirement offers they couldn't refuse. That happens as you get old. You can be a fine employee, healthy, competent, paid fairly for what you do or want to do, and still be sent to permanent pasture due to the perceived risk of medical costs and associated higher premiums.

I feel the big 3 are burdened with their decisions to sign labor agreements that really hurt their ability to make a profit and a good car at the same time.
I've had good and bad experiences with auto unions. Unions have limited the Big Three's flexibility in certain areas, though that's less true with every year. They've actually helped with flexibility quite a bit in recent years with healthcare and other initiatives. Still, they're antiquated and creaky in a number of ways.

But a lot of what made the emergence of the Japanese automakers possible was listening to their workers in a way that the Big Three would only do at gunpoint. I suspect that if Deming had been prominent at the formation of the Big Three, we wouldn't have unions as they exist today.

If I had to pick a union responsible for the Big Three's decline, it'd be OPEC.

Most of what I've seen from unions in recent years is them throwing young workers under the bus to keep juicy wage and benefit packages for the old timers. Small wonder they're having trouble recruiting.

Most of what I've seen from unions in recent years is them throwing young workers under the bus to keep juicy wage and benefit packages for the old timers. Small wonder they're having trouble recruiting.
Baby boomers screw their young to fuel their lifestyle on a number of fronts. Sadly, the unions aren't any different than boomers as a whole, here.

Also, over the past several years, the auto worker choices haven't been so much about "keep juicy wage and benefit packages" as "keep jobs at all". Target the old and you get lawsuits galore involving broken promises. And the "young workers" often didn't exist because they weren't in the union yet.

As soon as they started negotiating multi-tiered wages it was every man for himself. A "union" in name only.

I agree that it's not a good thing what the unions did. I'm more than happy to bust union people's chops about this, to a point. But, let's not forget that the management and a good chunk of that generation acts the same fucking way. "Let the next generation foot the bill while we live it up." isn't union-specific.

All the Big Three chairmen had donated to Bush's re-election early:

http://www.newsmeat.com/ceo_political_donations/Robert_Nardelli.php
http://www.newsmeat.com/ceo_political_donations/G_Richard_Wagoner.php
http://www.newsmeat.com/ceo_political_donations/William_Ford_Jr.php

Let it go! He's not the prez anymore. :)

So now its Lyndsey Graham and Bush's fault. lololol

I feel auto worker unions time has come and GONE!

They're fucking things up more than they are helping now.

Wow, Pat Buchanan is making some sense on this.

I feel auto worker unions time has come and GONE!

They're fucking things up more than they are helping now.

Starting wage on the line these days is $14/hr.

I also heard that 900,000 peeps are employed at US-made dealerships.

I wouldn't have thought it was that many.

I feel auto worker unions time has come and GONE!

They're fucking things up more than they are helping now.

Most unions are these days.

IMO, unions are about protection of benefits, progressive discipline in the workplace, and strength in numbers. What they've BECOME is a thinly veiled version of domestic terrorists. Certainly, the prescence of unions checks unscrupulous businesses, but when unions grow out of control it is THEY who become unscrupulous.

The latest strike here is SoCal, the Writers Guild, was absolute bullshit. If I'm laying millions of dollars on the line, I have every right to earn a maximum profit on the investment. The Writers Guild jumps in and demand an increase in secondary market percentages, as well as several thing that were previously agreed to by both parties to be "off the table". When unions pull this, they become nothing but the glorified thugs they were created to defend against in the first place.

If UAW truly cared about the auto industry, they would take the lead in devising some sort of "temporary contract relief" until the big 3 can get back on their feet. But they won't. Not when Bob the Auto Worker has a home, a boat, two motorcycles, last years vacation to Aruba, and a college education to pay off.

Oh, did I mention what Bob does at the GM plant?

He checks bolt torques. That's it. Nothing more.

Let it go! He's not the prez anymore. :)

So now its Lyndsey Graham and Bush's fault. lololol
No, my intent was only to show that the Big Three leaders supported Republicans and now have to beg before Democrats.

I've always said that the jacked up oil prices that fucked the car companies are more the fault of Bush than anything. There's not a "so now" in my thinking, but that wasn't really relevant to the small thing I wanted to show.

IMO, unions are about protection of benefits, progressive discipline in the workplace, and strength in numbers. What they've BECOME is a thinly veiled version of domestic terrorists. Certainly, the prescence of unions checks unscrupulous businesses, but when unions grow out of control it is THEY who become unscrupulous.
Given that the size of workers in unions have shrunk, not grown, it's unclear to me that unions are the looming menace that many make them out to be. FWIW, the unions got their start as domestic terrorists, but it was a fight against businesses who were domestic terrorists themselves. A lot went down to fuel generations of adversarial relationships.

With the automakers in particular, what's KEPT them vulnerable to unions is "just in time" production practices. To make "just in time" stuff work, you have to have a non-adversarial relationship with every link in the chain. It doesn't take a big event in the pipeline to destabilize overall automotive production. Note that they're vulnerable to a LOT of external forces here -- tier two Plastech shut Chrysler down.


If UAW truly cared about the auto industry, they would take the lead in devising some sort of "temporary contract relief" until the big 3 can get back on their feet. But they won't.
Why on earth would they do that when the execs line their pockets with large salary and options? They've done lots of "contract relief" efforts. The issue is the retirees. If you've got a limited lifespan, "temporary relief" might as well be permanent relief, and they're already on fixed incomes as it is. For every dollar that goes to a current employee, there's another that goes to retirees, and hitting that is a gigantic lawsuit where the retirees suing really don't have anything to lose.

No, my intent was only to show that the Big Three leaders supported Republicans and now have to beg before Democrats.

I've always said that the jacked up oil prices that fucked the car companies are more the fault of Bush than anything. There's not a "so now" in my thinking, but that wasn't really relevant to the small thing I wanted to show.

I think these CEO's could really give a shit. They've been making millions for years. They're trying to make themselves look good for the workers.

And I'm not smellin what your cookin with the OPEC thing. They should be forward thinking enough to deal with things like that. Japanese automakers were hurt, but not the US companies from what I've read.

Given that the size of workers in unions have shrunk, not grown, it's unclear to me that unions are the looming menace that many make them out to be. FWIW, the unions got their start as domestic terrorists, but it was a fight against businesses who were domestic terrorists themselves. A lot went down to fuel generations of adversarial relationships.

With the automakers in particular, what's KEPT them vulnerable to unions is "just in time" production practices. To make "just in time" stuff work, you have to have a non-adversarial relationship with every link in the chain. It doesn't take a big event in the pipeline to destabilize overall automotive production. Note that they're vulnerable to a LOT of external forces here -- tier two Plastech shut Chrysler down.


Why on earth would they do that when the execs line their pockets with large salary and options? They've done lots of "contract relief" efforts. The issue is the retirees. If you've got a limited lifespan, "temporary relief" might as well be permanent relief, and they're already on fixed incomes as it is. For every dollar that goes to a current employee, there's another that goes to retirees, and hitting that is a gigantic lawsuit where the retirees suing really don't have anything to lose.

They could take the lead as DM said and deman the CEO's take cuts too. Go public with it...get Gov's, Congress peeps involved, get the press involved, etc. Would it work? Who knows. But a good suggestion.

One more thing...I just don't see the auto workers getting treated like they once were, thanks to the unions back inthe day. I still see a need for mine workers in the south. They absolutely get shit on.

And I'm not smellin what your cookin with the OPEC thing. They should be forward thinking enough to deal with things like that. Japanese automakers were hurt, but not the US companies from what I've read.
I'm confused by what you're saying about Japan being hurt but not the U.S.

Very few people predicted price per gallon going to $3-4/gallon over this decade. We had a trial run for middle east destabilization with 9/11, and gas prices went to $2/gallon, and automakers took a hit (along with everyone else during 9/11). We had our initial success in Afghanistan, gas went down to $1.35/gallon like it has been before 9/11, and the Big Three had returned to profitability. Then we invade Iraq and they immediately spike again, just like 9/11. As things get worse in Iraq and Dubya pours money into it instead of shoring up the declining dollar (which probably would've curtailed some of the real estate stupid lending), oil gets pricier. Now it's "cheap" because of the global economic collapse ("what's bad for America is bad for the world") has spread our currency problems worldwide. But,` it's not like there's a lot of money for anyone to splurge.

Sure, peak oil and competitive pressures from other countries for peak output had/has AN impact on gas prices. But the BULK of the impact comes from Dubya being really stupid in his foreign and economic calculus. Just look at the seasonally-adjusted gas prices next to Iraq headlines. Leave it to him to have a war about oil that results in making gas more expensive, taking away the cushion of cheap gas that a generation of Americans relied on all at once.

my bad...It should have been...Japanese auto were hurt, but not as bad as the US companies, from what I've read.

Small detail I missed there.

#48...I blame Dubya very little for oil prices. I blame the Dems for not drilling and having a safety net to keep gas prices down. And part of the increase is India and China consuming way more as they become more and more industrialized.

#48...I blame Dubya very little for oil prices. I blame the Dems for not drilling and having a safety net to keep gas prices down. And part of the increase is India and China consuming way more as they become more and more industrialized.
Oil consumption for China and India is growing at ~7%/year since 2002. That's big, but just not enough to jack up the worldwide prices as starkly as they've gone up. Think 40-50% over 6 years, not 200-300%. Gas spiked dramatically as we went to war, dropped with "Mission Accomplished", then rose again as it was clear that it wasn't over. Speculators love instability... fear, uncertainty, and doubt is a great way to make a buck.

I feel auto worker unions time has come and GONE!

They're fucking things up more than they are helping now.

amen brother

Keep in mind that the states with no unions doing the big giveaways to attract foreign automakers are still poor as fuck. Alabama only stays afloat because they get a ton more federal tax money than they pay in federal taxes. By contrast, Michigan is a donor state -- still paying more in federal taxes than we get from the federal guv'mint. In a very real sense, our tax dollars have contributed to Alabama being able to bribe automakers.

When you say 'bribe automakers' you mean making a legitimate biz offer for the AMers to come to their state and employ peeps...right?

I'm not challenging your claims of MI being a donor state but just clarifying.

And, btw, paying all those taxes must make all of you in Michigan feel...well...patriotic. :)

Hey, Michigan bribes its automakers too. :)

The idea is to bring the jobs in so the state prospers. It's not clear Alabama prospers, though. The only thing that keeping them from being -THE- poorest state are the Katrina states. It's not clear what kind of impact they should have, but it seems to be a trend. Sucking down the manufacturing jobs as a growth strategy is a race to the bottom, at least all by itself.

What enables Alabama to make superior bribes is the fact that they're being subsidized by the Federal guv'mint in a way Michigan never has been. They literally get double the money we get back for every dollar of federal taxes paid, and that approximate ratio has been true for decades. California is a big-time donor state as well, and getting worse.

Just making sure we we are on the same page with the bribe talk. We are.

I just want the state where I was born and raised to prosper again. I don't think that happens with the Unions and the current mindset of the CEO's.

I would have never left Michigan if there would have been jobs back then. I missed a lot of my family back there. Not complaining, just stating facts.

It's a good thing that the news cycle is being dominated by the auto industry. Otherwise it might be noticed that with no congressional dog and pony show, Citigroup just got a $27 billion bailout and the government is on the hook for another $249 billion in dodgy assets should they go bad.

Edit: America needs to stop fighting and put on the glasses.

wqKFadyJxwg

greatest fight ever.

I have the Region 2 version of They Live with the commentary by Carpenter and Piper -- awesome as hell!

Back to the topic at hand...
http://www.uaw.org/auto/11_25_08auto1.cfm

A niche electric car company whose product sells for >$100k/pop wants 1.5% of the automotive bailout:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/business/30digi.html?_r=1&ref=business

And here's an interesting old article about how Toyota predicted what would happen because they are so great and with-it:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-08-28-toyota-trucks_N.htm

Since Toyota's product is so awesome, they're making the big bucks:

http://industry.bnet.com/auto/1000395/how-bad-is-us-auto-market-toyotas-losing-money-too/

I thought that this was a really good read:
http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/106249/Who-Can-Save-Detroit?

Deal.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081210/ap_on_go_co/congress_autos

Midwest Credit Unions Create “Invest in America” by Pledging $10 Billion for Low-Cost Auto Loans, Give Credit Union Members a GM Discount

Contact:
Mike Bridges-Director of Public Affairs
(800) 262-6285, ext. 246

LANSING, Mich., Dec. 10, 2008 – At a time when economic stress is sweeping the nation and threatening the survival of the U.S. auto industry, a consortium of 1,200 Midwest credit unions announce a vehicle purchase price discount from GM available to their members. Credit unions from Michigan, Ohio, Indiana and Illinois have also pledged $10 billion in low-cost auto loans to their more than 12 million members.

“Invest in America” will provide a great value to consumers who take advantage of a GM price discount program on purchases of eligible new Buick, Cadillac, Hummer, Saab, Chevrolet, GMC, Saturn and Pontiac cars and trucks.

“Credit unions have a long history of helping hard-working Americans in troubled times,” said Daniel A. Mica, president and CEO of the Credit Union National Association, the nation’s largest credit union trade group. “In this period of severe economic stress, we are pleased credit unions can be part of a program that utilizes one of their primary services — auto loans — to make auto purchases more affordable for millions of consumers and, in the process, help energize our nation’s economy.”

Credit union members can find details on the discounts at www.lovemycreditunion.org, and obtain an authorization number to take to any GM dealership. The discounts, among the best and most broad-based values offered by GM, will stack on top of most other incentives being offered.

“This new arrangement with Midwest credit unions creates a tremendous value for GM and for thousands of credit union members. We appreciate the credit unions’ promotional support and are pleased to make this offer,” said Mark LaNeve, GM vice president, North America Sales, Service and Marketing. “As GM maps its future, one thing is clear, Americans are resilient and willing to step in and show confidence in each other. This is a great example of that spirit.”

The program, running from December 8, 2008 through June 30, 2009, offers eligible vehicles at a “GM Supplier for Friends” price discount to credit union members and members of their households. Credit union members will be able to get an additional $250 bonus cash between now and January 5, 2009 on their eligible new GM vehicle purchase.

“The purchase of a new car is one of the most significant investments citizens make,” says Governor Jennifer M. Granholm. “Providing them access to the funds they need not only helps them, but provides a much-needed boost to our domestic automakers and our struggling economy. I applaud “Invest in America” for investing in our citizens and our state.”

The “Invest in America” program will be piloted in a four-state region with possibilities to go nationwide early in 2009. The credit union consortium includes four state trade associations and CUNA. The discount is available to credit union members in the four-state region no matter where they choose to finance their vehicle purchase.

CUcorp, a wholly-owned subsidiary of the MCUL, will coordinate the program with GM and is also in talks with Chrysler and Ford.

Organized in 1934, the Michigan Credit Union League is a statewide trade association representing Michigan credit unions. Based in Lansing, the MCUL offers credit unions assistance in the areas of regulatory compliance, legislative advocacy, media advocacy and operational information. For more information, visit the MCUL’s Web site at www.mcul.org.

If the Fed moves rates to negative I'm digging a damn pillbox.

Treasureies are trading at negative.
Time to start building a pillbox.

Capitalism.

Capitalism.

Central planning, price fixing, socialism, elite control of money supply.
I wouldn't call that capitalism.

Taking accountability and the punishment for your own mistakes.

That's capitalism in it's purest form.

Those who fail, are meant to fail.

Unless you own all the money.

Don't forget that part.

Ledezma is turrible.

Peppermint Patty??? lmao

Taking accountability and the punishment for your own mistakes.

That's capitalism in it's purest form.

Those who fail, are meant to fail.

Unless you're in the finance industry.

New rule: Anyone who takes a principled stand against the auto industry bridge loans should be strapped down clockwork orange style and force-fed the whole sordid story on what has happened with AIG. Thus informed, citizens will then be issued torches, pitchforks and directions to washington. The auto thing is just a sideshow pitting one faction of the middle class against another over pennies while the financial bailouts are looting this country like it was a fucking banana republic. Don't fall for the oke doke.

^Super:cogent:

Unless you're in the finance industry.

New rule: Anyone who takes a principled stand against the auto industry bridge loans should be strapped down clockwork orange style and force-fed the whole sordid story on what has happened with AIG. Thus informed, citizens will then be issued torches, pitchforks and directions to washington. The auto thing is just a sideshow pitting one faction of the middle class against another over pennies while the financial bailouts are looting this country like it was a fucking banana republic. Don't fall for the oke doke.

I'm pretty fucking tired right now, but are you saying cuz we fucked up with AIG we should fuck up again with the auto industry?

BMW, Toyota, and another foreign auto maker here in the US using US labor can make a profit. It kind of points to some fuck ups in Detroit if you ask me.

iirc, Toyota sold about the same amount of units as Chevy...Toyota made a profit while Chevy loses billions.

Toyota's projecting a billion dollar loss:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=a7q7XlNrJ.P4&refer=asia

Hybrid sales decline radically with the gas price:

http://www.wwj.com/Hybrid-Sales-Plunging-More-Than-Auto-Sales-Overall/3471723

Why did Senate Majority Leader, Harry Reid (aka the guy who said we lost the war in Iraq) vote against the auto-bailout?

Shouldn't he be criticized even moreso than say, Richard Shelby, who is a Republican?

It's a moot point now, but the grilling of Richard Shelby through a poorly written Rochelle Riley article on freep.com seems pointless if you ask me.

Why aren't we pissed at all these enviornmental wackos like Henry Waxman? Guys like him hate industrial manufacturing period. Seems they have a greater influence than somebody like Shelby who is part of the minority party in the Senate...

Why did Senate Majority Leader, Harry Reid (aka the guy who said we lost the war in Iraq) vote against the auto-bailout?
It's a Senate procedural matter:

http://rules.senate.gov/senaterules/rule13.php

He voted against it so he can reserve the right to bring it up for a re-vote Only someone who voted "no" can bring it back up, and the Senate Majority Leader is who historically exercises that option. This doesn't mean anything with regard to Reid's actual support for the measure.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081210/METRO/812100433/&imw=Y

DETROIT -- How bad are things around the Motor City? So bad that even Jon Jon's Cabaret is offering half-off deals.

The topless club in the suburb of Warren -- where General Motors and Chrysler entertained upwards of 20,000 people -- cut the cost of a table dance in half, from $20 to $10, in mid-November. The dancer gets all the money plus any tips, while food and drinks generate the club's income, general manager Kelly Sander said Tuesday.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081210/METRO/812100433/&imw=Y

Where do girls from Warren get off (pardon the pun) charging ANYTHING for a lap dance?

I'm pretty fucking tired right now, but are you saying cuz we fucked up with AIG we should fuck up again with the auto industry?

What I'm saying is that there's a lot of venom and popular anger stirred up over the auto bailout. To paraphrase pulp fiction, if you are gonna blow over the auto bailout, you should be a mushroom cloud layin' motherfucka over the the finance bailouts that are orders of magnitude larger in scale without even a fraction of the concessions and oversight being proposed for the auto industry.



BMW, Toyota, and another foreign auto maker here in the US using US labor can make a profit. It kind of points to some fuck ups in Detroit if you ask me.

iirc, Toyota sold about the same amount of units as Chevy...Toyota made a profit while Chevy loses billions.

It's a simple choice, really. Euthanasia for the auto industry as punishment for past transgressions... or roll the dice with loans and their attendant strings and oversight to save a few million jobs. I don't know about you but I like the risk of the loans a helluva lot better than the risk of delivering another hammerblow to the economy with the shape it's in.

http://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/articles/2008/12/20/local_news/local02.txt

Toyota, BMW, and Honda (I think) have factories in states which do not recognize the UAW (free labor states, I think the term is called). This is the future of the big three.

"Right to Work" states.

Which really should be called the "make sure no union comes in and takes away our 'at will' ability to fire people without cause" states.

But you know, that's too long.

Also, Ledezma disagrees with me on this I'm sure.

But he can't explain why.

"Right to Work" states.

Which really should be called the "make sure no union comes in and takes away our 'at will' ability to fire people without cause" states.

But you know, that's too long.

Also, Ledezma disagrees with me on this I'm sure.

The workers seem to be happy at Toyota.

The "'at will' ability to fire people without cause" is overblown. Really, if you're not performing to the level expected, you SHOULD be gone. Instead, many incompetent UAW workers continue to get fat despite their inabilities.

Don't believe me? When one thinks of Detroit cars, what's one of the first things that pops into your head...... "lack of reliability". Some of that is poor design, but a lot of that is poor worksmanship. When the once- laughingstock of the automotive world, Korea, suddenly finds itself in the hallowed ground of Japanese automakers in regards to quality, surpassing Detroit in the process, something HAS to happen.

We see this all the time in sports. Fat contract, huge guaranteed conpensation, and ego all conspire to form a player who's lost the competitive fire.

Peeps are so quick to blame unionized labor for the auto industry's ills.

Last I checked, this is a global crisis, even the foreign auto companies without unionized workforces are having problems at home.

The workers seem to be happy at Toyota.


In part they're happy because they enjoy the luxury of drafting behind the unions when it comes to negotiating wages and benefits.

I love the "don't believe me" line. Like I'm not in Michigan and living this shit.

It's a joke to say that the dude who installs the bolts that hold the quarter panel on is the guy responsible for the factory recalls. Those are engineering defects. The American auto's were rated lower in reliability because they were designed poorly (or designed with a shorter lifespan of planned obsolescence). You don't call back 3 million Neons because Chuck on B shift was hungover one afternoon. Martha in the tool crib didn't decide to use the shitty Tiawanese cables that short out in damp weather and can catch the engine on fire if their sneezed on wrong.

The "unions protect shitty workers" comment is true but WAY FUCKING OLD NEWS. That certainly needs to be changed (and no one is saying otherwise) but you can't extrapolate that into why the guys who created the freaking industry can't figure out how to make a profit in it.

I love that companies' ability to fire people for no reason or, and I quote, "bad cause" isn't important to check but workers who came together to negotiate a better contract for themselves should have the protections they've earned collectively stripped from them. America baby. America.

If you factor out retiree benefits and regional cost-of-living, plant workers at domestic automakers make roughly the same as the ones at foreign automakers these days. Of course, the sample size for foreign auto workers is relatively small. GM employs more folks at U.S. plants than all of the other foreign automakers combined.

One thing of note with regard to retiree benefits and other things is...

We see this all the time in sports. Fat contract, huge guaranteed conpensation, and ego all conspire to form a player who's lost the competitive fire.
Much like today's NBA, domestic automakers find themselves routinely paying for performance AFTER it happened rather than AS it happens. That's problematic at a number of levels, on a number of fronts. With both the NBA and Big Three, management drove many of the "perform now, pay you later" schemes.

Much like today's NBA, domestic automakers find themselves routinely paying for performance AFTER it happened rather than AS it happens. That's problematic at a number of levels, on a number of fronts. With both the NBA and Big Three, management drove many of the "perform now, pay you later" schemes.


It Happened.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/18/tech/cnettechnews/main4675616.shtml

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/18/tech/cnettechnews/main4675616.shtml

He didn't take into account that a "moved" car is a "sold" car. A leased car, in Detroit fuzzy math, is considered "sold". Certainly, the big 3 "sold" many cars last year (2007), but how many of these consumers used GMAC in their purchase of that Cadillac Eslalade? Keeping the loan within the company structure is good to maximize profit on interest, but probably not so good when the client defaults.

Detroit DOES make some very good automobiles (Corvette, Enclave, Focus, 300, trucks). It's the garbage that keeps people scoffing at their quality. True, design and engineering play a role in this (as I mentioned in my initial post), but when you're producing shit like the Caliber, Avenger, Aveo (Korea), Cobalt, and the defunct Ford Five Hundred, and expecting people to pay the same amount as they would a comparable foreign brand, something ain't right.

I'll give you a perfect example: my 2007 VW Rabbit 2.5. New it sold for $14995, but it has electromagnetic steering, cruise control, traction control, an 8 speaker system, and a 5 cylinder engine. They can pull this off because most of that technology is trickle down from it's cousin, the Audi A4. Furthermore, VW is making a huge profit on the ride, since most of the R&D and production costs were handled on the Audi side. GM can't touch that value point, even with Cadillac right there to play Audi to their Chevy. The structure isn't set to accomodate that kind of brand-sharing. Try buying a Chevy Cobalt for $14995 and see what you get, or a Dodge Caliber, or a Ford Focus (which really is supposed to be a good car).

Hopefully, with this restructuring we'll see Pontiac and Dodge once again become powersport specialty brands, Buick, GMC Truck, and Mercury say adios (useless brands, except for the Buick Enclave, which should go to Cadillac), Lincoln and Chrysler upscale themselves to match Cadillac (Lincoln has some good shit these days, like the MKS), and Chevy become the everyman's car brand as it once was (except for the Corvette, which has pretty much always been on it's own).

As for the UAW, too little too late. I still think in two years the UAW will be no more. I simply cannot see them surviving in their current incarnation, just as I cannot see SAG continue as is out here in Hollywood. The smart unions will find a way to survive, the shit unions with inflexible directors running the show will perish. Right now, the UAW is in the crosshairs of the big 3, and right to work states are salivating at the notion of bringing factories to their people. I would not be surprised if some of this potential bailout $$$ is to be used SPECIFICALLY FOR new non-UAW factories.

Sorry if that bothers people, but evolution is evolution.

Correct me if I'm wrong of course but:

1. Wasn't GMAC actually sold off a couple of years ago?

2. Unless the big 3 are actually financing the leases themselves, they are actually selling them to the financing companies who do the actual leasing. This is how it is with many types of leasing deals and for sure with leasing cars in Spain (which is why I stand to be corrected on this point as it pertains to the American market as I have no idea whether American companies are financing the cars themselves or how it works with the financing companies they sub-contract).

Correct me if I'm wrong of course but:

1. Wasn't GMAC actually sold off a couple of years ago?

2. Unless the big 3 are actually financing the leases themselves, they are actually selling them to the financing companies who do the actual leasing. This is how it is with many types of leasing deals and for sure with leasing cars in Spain (which is why I stand to be corrected on this point as it pertains to the American market as I have no idea whether American companies are financing the cars themselves or how it works with the financing companies they sub-contract).
Sort of.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aHJ5U8LG4HMY&refer=home



GMAC’s request was approved even though the lender didn’t satisfy the capital requirements laid out when it applied to become a bank in November. GMAC, which is also the parent of mortgage lender Residential Capital LLC, said it needed three- quarters of investors that held $38 billion in bonds to exchange the notes as part of a plan to reduce debt (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GM1%3AUS). As of Dec. 17, holders of 58 percent of eligible notes had tendered.
That I didn't know. Hahahaha. GMAC got fucked by the housing collapse, too. Brilliant.

I'll give you a perfect example: my 2007 VW Rabbit 2.5. New it sold for $14995, but it has electromagnetic steering, cruise control, traction control, an 8 speaker system, and a 5 cylinder engine. They can pull this off because most of that technology is trickle down from it's cousin, the Audi A4.
Are you sure about that? I dunno about everything, but cruise control, ESP, the 8 speaker system, etc. have been options on the mid-range Golf platform cars for at least 5 years. Heck, cruise control's been around for mid-range for at least 10 years. If anything, I'd expect the trickle down technology effect to be from other Golf platform cars like the GTIs.

Yeah, I do like VW products, as long as you can get good service for them in your neck of the woods. AFAICT, if you don't live near VW's North American HQ in Auburn Hills, or Munk's Motors in Waterford, you're toast.

Are you sure about that? I dunno about everything, but cruise control, ESP, the 8 speaker system, etc. have been options on the mid-range Golf platform cars for at least 5 years. Heck, cruise control's been around for mid-range for at least 10 years. If anything, I'd expect the trickle down technology effect to be from other Golf platform cars like the GTIs.

Yeah, I do like VW products, as long as you can get good service for them in your neck of the woods. AFAICT, if you don't live near VW's North American HQ in Auburn Hills, or Munk's Motors in Waterford, you're toast.
Not options. Standard equipment. My car is bare bones and still owns that equipment. It's the main reason I bought it. The value of the standard package is out of sight. Toyota is kinda doing the same thing with it's Scion brand.

Also, I don't consider a $15,000 car "mid range" these days. The Passat would, IMO, be VW's mid-range model, with the CC being their luxury model. Anything from $12,000-$17,000 I would lump as "entry-level". Even the micro Smart Car hovers around $15,000. But when one compares, say, the Scion xB with a Dodge Avenger, the Scion absolutely kicks it's ass in build quality, design, materials used, and overall driveability, not to mention price.

It's that old concept that a "Dodge Guy" will always buy Dodge. Daddy gets the Ram or Charger, mommy gets the Avenger, and little Bobby gets the Caliber. The "Chevy Guy" will do the same, with the Truck/Corvette, the Malibu, and the Cobalt.

Obviously, they are wrong and have learned nothing.

Brand loyalty no longer has to do wth buying what your family has always bought, it's your personal experience with a brand. A kid buys an ugly-as-all-Hell Toyota Yaris in college, and the damn thing is as dependable as a sunrise. So, when he moves into the real world, he upgrades to a mid-range like Camry or a Highlander. Great experience. He moves up in the world, and switches to Toyota's luxury brand, Lexus. Along the way, he becomes a missionary to the product, telling all who wish to listen how wonderful his Toyota works.

With some Detroit brands, it's the opposite effect. I rented a Chrysler Sebring some years ago, when Sebrings still had style. It rode like a bucket of Jello, a rattled quite a bit. I also rented a Mercury Milan that same year. Great ride. Great amenities. You can still observe my bias against Chrysler products in my current posts. I've rented a Neon, a Sebring, and an Avenger -- all absolute junk! I'll never buy Chrysler. But I'd buy Lincoln, and I'd buy Cadillac. I rented the Pontiac G6 and found it a very nice ride, so Pontiac is a maybe.

And, of course, I'd ALWAYS buy the Corvette, especially the new ZR1.

Are you sure about that? I dunno about everything, but cruise control, ESP, the 8 speaker system, etc. have been options on the mid-range Golf platform cars for at least 5 years. Heck, cruise control's been around for mid-range for at least 10 years. If anything, I'd expect the trickle down technology effect to be from other Golf platform cars like the GTIs.

BTW, VW has been pulling from the entry Audis for quite a while. Their model have been DNA linked for as long as I can remember.

Good to know, thanks. It just seemed like what you rattled off as standard had started out as an option in a GTI, but that's just my years-old "gut feel" from hanging with a buddy of mine who was into VWs. His got crunched and he bought a truck just in time for gas prices to skyrocket, so I haven't heard much vehicle stuff apart from bitching since. :)

uoWFtPbhMmM
qgEvy60bZYI

Also, Detroit advertising sucks compared to some of the best VW and others. Come straight from non-creative minds at the top.

Faks are faks and the faks are that the big 3 union workers cost there empoyurs more money than the other auto manufakcherers in the US due.

Faks are faks and the faks are that the big 3 union workers cost there empoyurs more money than the other auto manufakcherers in the US due.
There's a simple solution. Screw all of the retirees, stick the tab on the tax payer, and the Big Three would have competitive pay. That's what other industries have done. Would such a solution for the Big Three cost more than simply loaning them and giving them money? Dats duh kwestyun...

It's not the people currently working that lead to the big extra cost, but the retirees. The killer are defined benefit plans, which are modeled after (and around) our Social Security system and other legal constructs Both have similar structural issues -- difficulty in dealing with increasing lifespans, the nasty reliance on current workers funding the retirees in various ways, etc.

Remember, the serious defined contribution plans of today didn't exist as real options until the 80s. It's not clear that what we do currently is really what we should be doing for retirement, but old voters grow all the time and want an ever-growing quantity of handout money. I like the Dutch retirement plans a whole more than our weird mix of Social Security and 401k/IRA.

Faks are faks and the faks are that the big 3 union workers cost there empoyurs more money than the other auto manufakcherers in the US due.

Obviously a successful graduate of the Bukdow "English has a Everyday Language" DVD instructional set.

He can has spread retardish

He can has spread retardish
The Anchiello Language? I thought only NoQuarter could speak it.



THE FANS OF DETROYET ARE #1 AND ORLANDO #15 OR #23 OR THIS!!!

Well, this is what I was waiting for, time to buy!


GM offers 0-percent financing to boost sales

By DAN STRUMPF, AP Auto Writer
28 mins ago

NEW YORK – General Motors Corp. said Tuesday it will offer financing as low as zero percent over the next week for several 2008 and 2009 models as the automaker makes a big year-end push to improve sales.

The news comes a day after its troubled lending unit, GMAC Financial Services LLC, agreed to take a $5 billion loan from the Treasury Department. Mark LaNeve, a GM vice president, said GMAC's approval to become a bank holding company and qualify for government funding were crucial steps to affording the new financing offers.

Previously, GMAC was unable to offer such low rates to consumers because its lack of funds, GM said.

"I think it would be fair to say that without this change ... we would not be able to do this today," LaNeve said in a conference call.

GM said it will offer zero-percent financing for up to 60 months on the 2008 Chevrolet TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy and Saab 9-7X sport utility vehicles through GMAC. The Saab 9-3 and 9-5 sedans also qualify for zero-percent financing.

The carmaker is also offering financing between 0.9 percent and 5.9 percent on more than three dozen other 2008 and 2009 models, including many trucks and SUVs. The deal runs through Jan. 5.

Many of the qualifying vehicles have seen big year-over-year sales declines and the automaker is eager to move them out of dealerships. TrailBlazer sales are down 42 percent through November compared with the same period last year. Envoy sales are off 49 percent.

The incentives come on top of numerous other deals offered by GM, which is struggling to boost sales and keep itself afloat. The GM is in the midst of its year-end "Red Tag" sale, and is also throwing numerous cash bonuses at willing customers.

Separately, GMAC said Tuesday that it will offer auto loans to customers with credit scores as low as 621, eliminating restrictions put in place two months ago that required a minimum score of 700.

Prior to the Treasury loan, which comes from the $700 billion bank rescue package, LaNeve said GM had difficulty tapping GMAC for one of its core functions: providing loans to car and truck buyers.

"Essentially, we couldn't even activate our finance company as an ally in trying to get deals done in the market," LaNeve told reporters. "I think what we're seeing today is a big improvement over that."

LaNeve also said GM was weighing a return to the leasing business, though it still lacks the financing to do so immediately. GM, along with other automakers, has dramatically scaled back customer leasing in recent months because used-car values have fallen so sharply that the practice has become too costly.

LaNeve said the previous restriction had sent a message to customers that GMAC was no longer in the financing business and added that the combination of lower credit qualifications and lower-cost loans should change that perception for consumers.

"It will certainly signal that GMAC ... is back in the game of financing vehicles," he said.

GM, along with Chrysler LLC, received approval from the Bush Administration for $17.4 billion in aid from the Treasury Department's TARP program. The loans require that the automakers submit a plan for viability by March 31.

Nothing like using their money to buy their cars. Better be cars, cuz if you are buying a truck, it should be a Ford.

Hey Big Three -- Oregon wants to give you money to lo-jack their population!


The governor wants the task force “to partner with auto manufacturers to refine technology that would enable Oregonians to pay for the transportation system based on how many miles they drive.”

http://www.dhonline.com/articles/2008/12/28/news/local/1aaa02_road.txt

Poor taxes are always the way.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/10-cutting-edge-car-questions.htm

It happened....

rAqPMJFaEdY

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10130380-54.html?tag=mncol

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10130380-54.html?tag=mncol


yet another stupid, Algore concept car that we'll never see on the roads...

not to mention, nobodys going to want to buy this (or afford it)

Another way for automakers to recoup cash?

http://techdirt.com/articles/20090109/0300333343.shtml

If enough auto executives conduct suicide bombings against Obama's limo, GM can build a fleet of them for a windfall!

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10133321-1.html?tag=mncol

Remember, other automakers are superior to the Big Three because they communicate with their employees:

http://jalopnik.com/5064700/automaker-lays-off-detroit-office-with-blog-post

GM Will Build Michigan Lithium-Ion Battery Factory to Supply Plug-In Volt (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aiWxz1VbuEJs&refer=news)General Motors Corp. will open a lithium-ion battery factory in Michigan, the first for a large U.S. automaker, to assemble the power packs for the Volt plug-in electric car.

GM and UM to create an automotive battery testing lab on Ann Arbor campus (http://e.ccialerts.com/a/hBJa6PVAGhvOMAdh$LYAI9EcH9V/cdb25)

Good news for Meeeeechigan.

GM and UM to create an automotive battery testing lab on Ann Arbor campus (http://e.ccialerts.com/a/hBJa6PVAGhvOMAdh$LYAI9EcH9V/cdb25)

Forcccccinnnnggggg.....seeeeelllllffffff......nnoo oootttttt.....tttoo.....
mmmmaaaakkkke....bbbbaaaaddddd.....crrrrraaaacccck kkk....
aaaaabbbbbooouutttt.....Miiiiicccchhhhiiigggannn.. ..Sssstttaaattteeee...


Ok, I think we're clear.

BATTERY ACID RAIN

General Motors to slash 10,000 salaried jobs this year (http://www.yahoo.com/s/1028343)

Michigan isn't even kind to the white-collars anymore...

I'm thinking about moving out to San Diego once I get my degree. My uncle who lives in SD told me he can ge me a job at Qualcomm.

This place is just depressing...

Michigan isn't even kind to the white-collars anymore...

I'm thinking about moving out to San Diego once I get my degree. My uncle who lives in SD told me he can ge me a job at Qualcomm.

This place is just depressing...

Yep.

Not because I'm white collar or anything...

Yep.

Not because I'm white collar or anything...

I wish I was...

I don't possess any 'hands-on' skills or trades.

Yeah, because once the "white collars" start feeling the pain, it's time to get out.

Yeah, because once the "white collars" start feeling the pain, it's time to get out.

That's the last step...

Now nobody is immune to the recession.

That's right, Lovey.

Enter... Manny Ramirez!
http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/scott_boras_able_to_get?utm_source=onion_rss_daily

http://www.theonion.com/content/infograph/auto_industry_crisis?utm_source=onion_rss_daily


The big three American automobile manufacturers spent much of last week lobbying Congress for a portion of the economic bailout, lest they go under. How did they get to this point?

1970: United Auto Workers fights for and wins 12 paid hangover days a year for its members

1977: Inspired by the hit motion picture The Spy Who Loved Me, Chrysler wastes four years trying to manufacture a car that turns into a submarine

1985: Ford spends the majority of its R & D budget designing sweet new "Chevy Sucks" decals

1991: Sales of the Pontiac Trans Am plunge after the car officially loses its pussy magnet designation

1997: Having meticulously crafted the 1998 Dodge Dakota to boast best-in-class payload and towing capacity, Chrysler decides to rest on its laurels for the next decade

1999: Chevrolet is sued for millions after it is discovered there is already a song named "Like a Rock" with the exact same lyrics and melody

2000: GM unveils the Buick Carbon, America's first mass-produced gas-coal hybrid vehicle

2001: At the Los Angeles Auto Show, GM introduces the Pontiac Aztek to raucous laughter, then stunned silence, then blood curdling screams of horror

2006: Oprah says her new favorite thing is non-American cars

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/03/18/windsor-plant.html?ref=rss


A group of disgruntled workers who took over a recently closed auto-parts supply company in Windsor, Ont., on Tuesday ended their siege Wednesday afternoon after reaching a deal that gives 80 laid-off employees severance and back pay.

The Canadian Auto Workers Union, which represents workers at the closed Aradco plant, held a rally there Wednesday. CAW president Ken Lewenza, speaking at the rally, told some 400 supporters a deal "in principle" had been reached.

About a dozen workers took over the Aradco facility Tuesday night. The plant takeover is the latest twist in a saga that has been brewing since two auto plants in the area shut down early last week.

The dozen workers had welded the doors shut from the inside, and said they would not leave until they got what they were owed.

Work at the Aradco plant stopped last week because of a dispute between the plant owners and Chrysler, which has mused publicly about pulling out of its Canadian operations unless unionized workers make substantial concessions.
Workers to vote on deal Thursday

Speaking of the deal, Lewenza told a cheering crowd that "where we are today is 10 times farther than we ever were and than we'd ever get."

No further details of the deal were available, but they will be provided Thursday morning when workers are due to vote on the agreement, the CAW said.

The CAW has said Aradco workers are owed severance, vacation and termination pay totalling $1.7 million.

The plant's owner, Catalina Precision Products Ltd., has offered the workers four weeks of severance pay — or about $200,000 in total for all 80 workers.
Union head says plant takeover was last option

The plant builds parts for Chrysler.

Since last week, Chrysler had been trying to go in and collect parts and tools it said belonged to the company, but the workers were not allowing it. They blocked trucks from coming on to the property.

Union representatives said the workers feared that if the tools and parts were removed, they would have no negotiating power.

"Some of the workers here have decided to take over the plant. That's the only thing they have in order to try to get the monies that are owing to them," Gerry Farnham, president of the CAW local representing the workers, said during the siege.

Wil Lewenza?

Yeah, because once the whites start feeling the pain, it's time to get out.

FIXED

If you consider Windsor to be part of the Metro Detroit area, it's the largest growing area.

Sources: $5 billion in aid expected for auto suppliers (http://e.ccialerts.com/a/hBJwmG0AGhvOMAdh-FOAI9EcHGB/cdb27)

Fuck'n A. Fuck it. If the execs in all these bailed out banking institutions get bonuses, help out my Michigan brethren. In fact, double that shit. At least it would go to hard working peeps.

7,500 GM hourly workers accept buyout, early retirement offers (http://www.yahoo.com/s/1049265)

$20K and a new car to just walk away. Interesting.

I can't even remember now how much the auto industry rec'd in bailout money, if any. But this is good thing to do with that money, imo.

From a political kabuki theater perspective, Obama effectively dismissing Rick Wagoner should play out well with most of the American public.

New GM CEO Fritz Henderson "Go deeper, Go harder, and second, Go faster. And so we got it and we understand exactly what that means"

Holy shit!

Is that someone's wife talking? Is that Schwartz talking to CJ?

Obama administration official: Chrysler will file for bankruptcy now that negotiations with creditors have collapsed.

They did file. But why did we pump all that money into them in the first place. I dont' care if it was a Bush move or an Obama move, its a stupid move.

Closer to the Truth:
Chrysler will file for bankruptcy now that the U.S. Treasury Department has been unable to convince the banks that lend to Chrysler to cut them a break.

Can we really call it the big 3 anymore? Supposedly Honda is about to take over the 4th spot from them in US sales (GM, Ford and Toyota are ahead of them, not sure if that is the order).

Can we really call it the big 3 anymore? Supposedly Honda is about to take over the 4th spot from them in US sales (GM, Ford and Toyota are ahead of them, not sure if that is the order).
Interesting, yet another "big 3" that are DONE.

^ Did you call this one too?

I'll check the archives, but I doubt it.

Closer to the truth...

Chuck Shumer and assorted other dipshits..."They are too big to let fail"

So lets give them a few Billion and where are the assorted dipshits now?

It wasn't ok to let them fail 3 months ago, but it is now?

If a company going down brings a hunk of the US economy with it, it needs to be busted up. Discuss.

Maybe it just needs to be allowed to fail.

WE CANT SAVE ALL THESE COMPANIES! Its too big to save all of them.

I'm thinking there are plenty of other cars out there for consumers to choose from if Chrysler goes down.

Chrysler's much smaller than GM or Ford. It'd been "the big 2 and the little 1" for decades. When GM and Ford spun off Delphi and Visteon, both were bigger than (pre-Daimler) Chrysler.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jdD8tAnE0nY9Ofivqa8KjAufPkPgD98BIOO80


WASHINGTON (AP) — Lawmakers appealed to the Obama administration on Friday to slow down the restructuring of General Motors and Chrysler, wary of shuttered car dealerships, job losses and the big unknown of a GM bankruptcy.

"We are asking President Obama to call 'time-out' on his automobile task force," said Rep. Steve LaTourette, R-Ohio.

Members of Congress urged the White House to re-examine its work to stabilize the U.S. auto industry, prompted by sweeping plans outlined last week by Chrysler LLC and General Motors Corp. to shutter hundreds of car dealerships.

They said a pending June 1 deadline for a GM bankruptcy created more uncertainty for the industry, and could lead to a rash of more job losses and dealership closings.

Thirty-six members of Congress, mostly Republican, told the White House they were troubled by the work of the auto industry task force appointed by the president earlier this year. The panel has worked with GM and Chrysler to try to restructure the companies.

"They represent various Wall Street interests who have long looked at exporting jobs out of this country," said Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, who accused the task force of facilitating plans by GM to import Chinese-made vehicles to the U.S.

Five House members, including Kucinich, LaTourette and House Judiciary Chairman John Conyers, D-Mich., met with a representative of the Obama task force on Friday. "They're anxious to have additional meetings," said LaTourette spokeswoman Deborah Setliff.

The White House said it was focused on helping the companies become viable to preserve jobs and strengthen the auto industry.

"Saving the auto industry is an urgent priority for our nation and our workers. The task force has worked diligently and deliberatively throughout this process and we will continue to work with all stakeholders," said White House spokeswoman Amy Brundage.

Chrysler LLC, which has received $5.8 billion in federal aid, disclosed in bankruptcy court last week its plans to close about a quarter of its 3,200 U.S. dealerships by June 9.

General Motors, which has received $19.4 billion in aid and could be forced into bankruptcy, has told about 1,100 of its dealers — about 20 percent — that their franchise agreements will not be renewed by late next year. GM said Friday it had borrowed an additional $4 billion from the government, bringing its total to $19.4 billion.

Chrysler plans to close eight manufacturing plants, part of its work to shed assets, debt and contracts and shift its good assets to Italian automaker Fiat Group SpA.

GM and the United Auto Workers union reached a tentative agreement Thursday on labor and health care concessions. Details have not yet emerged but GM had previously said it would close 16 factories, laying off 21,000 hourly workers.

While many auto plants are confined to Rust Belt states, the loss of car dealership jobs affect communities throughout the country. With an upcoming Memorial Day recess looming, members of Congress are expected to field questions about the job losses.

While GM has not made its list public, Chrysler has identified 789 dealerships in 49 states that are scheduled to be closed. Only Alaska was spared.

"These dealers deserve a little more than a pink slip in the mail," wrote Missouri Sens. Claire McCaskill, a Democrat, and Kit Bond, a Republican.

The job losses have also brought vows of congressional oversight. Sens. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., and Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas, the ranking members on the Senate Commerce Committee, said they would hold hearings on the dealerships in early June.

Rockefeller's home state could lose 17 of its 24 Chrysler dealerships while 50 Chrysler dealerships in Texas are expected to go out of business.

"These companies cannot be allowed to take taxpayer funds for a bailout and then leave local dealers and their customers to fend for themselves with no real notice and no real help," Rockefeller said.

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/06/elon-musk-on-the-inevitability-of-the-ev-running-detroit-and-firing-a-certain-someone/


Tesla Motors’ Musk: Let Me Run Detroit

Elon Musk has tackled electric cars, space ships and modular renewable energy stations. Now he wants a real challenge: running Detroit.

“When the mess gets sorted out, I’d like to have a conversation with whoever’s in charge at the time — the car czar or whoever — and say ‘I’d like to run your plants, if you don’t mind,’” Musk said, starting that conversation Monday at Wired’s first-ever business conference, Disruptive by Design in Manhattan.

What would he do? Hint: he doesn’t think much of namby-pamby hybrids. In the future, Musk said, only electric cars will make sense.

He characterized cars like the Toyota Prius as “splitting the baby” in the style of King Solomon — a compromise that delivers neither the perfect gas-driven or electric-driven experience, due to the duplicate equipment required to harness dual energy sources.

“[The electric car] is an inevitable thing,” Musk said in a conversation with Wired editor-in-Chief Chris Anderson. “The reason I’m putting so much time and effort into helping create Tesla is because I’m hoping we can accelerate that transformation.”

The Paypal co-founder, who made nearly $200 million when eBay acquired that company in 2002, now focuses his energy on three quasar-hot topics: electric cars (at Tesla, the only company that currently sells one), space exploration (at Space-X, which won the contract to replace the Space Shuttle), and new energy technologies (at Solar City, which builds solar power systems for single-family homes and corporations).

Gossip mongers hoping for dirt in the ongoing lawsuit between Musk and Tesla founder Martin Eberhard will have to look elsewhere — with one possible exception.

Part of the problem with Detroit, he says, is the union system. “It’s not out of the question to have unions, but if there’s going to be a union, they’d better understand that they’re on the same side as the company,” he added. “I’m against having a two-class system where you’ve got the workers and then the managers, sort of like nobles and peasants…

“Most of our experienced factory workers come from unionized environments, and we asked them what benefit did they see in unions,” he added. “They said, ‘Well, if their boss was an asshole, they had recourse.’

“I said, ‘Let’s make a rule: There will be no assholes.’ I fired someone for being an asshole. And I only had to do that once, actually.”

The auto industry will be fine once CEO of GM, Barrack Obama, signs up all the legacy shit to taxpayers...(uses the his new Gov't run Health Care) and prolly all of GM will use it too.

Auto Industry...FIXED! according Obama. Use taxpayer money. The Gov't can fix everything.

The Unions vote for me, so I'll steal money from taxpayers to pay them back.

The auto industry will be fine once CEO of GM, Barrack Obama, signs up all the legacy shit to taxpayers...(uses the his new Gov't run Health Care) and prolly all of GM will use it too.

Auto Industry...FIXED! according Obama. Use taxpayer money. The Gov't can fix everything.

The Unions vote for me, so I'll steal money from taxpayers to pay them back.
You're assuming that the money doesn't get consumed some other way. If you hit a telephone pole with your car, it doesn't matter whether you fix the old car or get a new car, make a claim or not, it's gonna cost you big bucks one way or another. Do nothing, maybe let the pole fall down and take some electrical wires on the way, while letting the car just sit there and block the other traffic, and you'll have significant collateral damage above and beyond the price of the car even if the driver abandons the fucking car.

The auto industry will be fine once CEO of GM, Barrack Obama, signs up all the legacy shit to taxpayers...(uses the his new Gov't run Health Care) and prolly all of GM will use it too.

Auto Industry...FIXED! according Obama. Use taxpayer money. The Gov't can fix everything.

The Unions vote for me, so I'll steal money from taxpayers to pay them back.
:record:

:record:
Colder than a witch's tit in church on Easter Sunday.

Hey, I'm sure he'll use it, too.

It's an equal opportunity emoticon.

Wait, does that mean he won't use it, then?

Hey, I'm sure he'll use it, too.

It's an equal opportunity emoticon.

Wait, does that mean he won't use it, then?
I don't think he will. It's a socialized image macro.

:record:

^ nice

But you can't refute that awesome post.

Talks broke down today between GM and Roger Penske, who was attempting to buy Saturn.

Ford makes a profit. The only automaker that our Gov't didn't take over and fuck with, and they make the profit.

Are you serious?

You fuck'n A right I am.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc

^ slkjd alkdj ajlkdkjf a bhalkdf

Anyone think that the rumors of a Ford loss had more to do with union bargaining than anything?

http://www.detnews.com/article/20091010/AUTO01/910100321/1148/%2BCool%2B%2Bcar%2Brules%2Bc%20ould%2Baffect%2Brad ios%2B%2Bphones


Washington -- California's latest requirement for the auto industry -- advanced window glazing to keep vehicles cooler -- could prevent drivers from making phone calls, listening to satellite radio or using garage door openers.

It also could lead Chrysler Group LLC to stop selling its soft-top convertible Jeep Wrangler in the Golden State. The standard for sunroofs is so tough that automakers warn the glass would have to be "effectively black."

The California Air Resources Board has adopted a new "Cool Cars" regulation ordering advanced glazing of windows to block the sun's heat and reduce the need for air conditioning. Windows must be coated with microscopic specks of metal oxide to reflect sunlight.

Advocates say the requirements will reduce the temperature inside vehicles, saving gasoline and cutting greenhouse gases.

The regulations take effect in 2012, with a three-year phase-in and requires that by 2014 all vehicles prevent 45 percent of the energy from the sun from entering a vehicle and 60 percent by 2016.The regulation applies to all new vehicles weighing 10,000 pounds or less.The board will review the second phase of the regulation next summer. By the end of this month, the board plans to publish its completed regulation. The public gets 15 days to comment with the final package to be completed by May 2010.

Some companies worry that the new requirements haven't been fully tested. In a Sept. 22 letter, Garmin International Inc., the California Manufacturers and Technology Association and the International Bridge, Tunnel & Turnpike Association warned that "more time was needed to assess the impact" of the rules.

They noted that "ankle bracelets for parolees," along with cell phone calls and laptops, "may be adversely affected by the metallic reflective standard" because the signals "must be able to penetrate the glazing in vehicles."

Garmin's initial testing said the signals from GPS devices were degraded.

Major automakers, led by the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers and Association of International Automobile Manufacturers, argued for a different standard that would "absorb" rather than "reflect" energy and wouldn't risk wireless signals.

"It achieves about 85 percent of the benefit at about 10 percent of the cost, and it doesn't have any of the complications of reflective glazings," said the alliance's Steve Douglas. He said the standard would lead to "more dropped calls." Sunroofs would have to be "effectively black. So there's no light coming through that."

Honda said the new requirement "is simply not feasible" on the current timetable. Toyota Motor Corp. used similar reflective glass in Japan from 1989-94, before dropping it because of problems with radio wave devices.

Chrysler Group LLC has sought an exemption for vehicles' plastic windows, warning it could affect its GEM Electric vehicle and Jeep Wrangler.

The irony is the GEM electric vehicles don't even offer air conditioning, Chrysler said.

"The very popular Jeep Wrangler fitted with a soft convertible top uses flexible roll-up side windows which are not capable of meeting the side window standard," Ross Good, Chrysler's senior manager of government relations told the board. "Outlawing the soft top would require us to use the hard-top vehicle with the hard windows, which would add significant weight to the vehicle."

The initial standard will cost $111 over the life of a vehicle; the 2016 standard will add $250 to the cost of each vehicle. California says it will take five to 12 years for consumers to recoup the costs from reduced gasoline use.

Air conditioning burns more gasoline and contributes to greenhouse gas emissions. California says its regulation will save 700,000 metric tons of carbon dioxide by 2020, which is equivalent to taking 140,000 cars off the road for a year.

The new rule has other benefits, California says. It will keep cars 13 degrees cooler and reduce fading of upholstery and cracking of the dashboard. "This is a common sense and cost-effective measure that will help cool the cars we drive and fight global warning," said Mary Nichols, chairwoman of the California Air Resources Board.

The board has acknowledged that the reflective coating on windows can hinder communications, but said antennas are "an alternative already abundantly used."

http://www.mlive.com/auto/index.ssf/2011/05/gary_peters_invites_john_mccai.html



Gary Peters invites John McCain to 'see the automotive industry's recovery' at Chrysler

OnStar Begins Spying On Customers’ GPS Location For Profit

http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=1270

OnStar Begins Spying On Customers’ GPS Location For Profit

http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=1270

A victory for the free market!

I buy Ford, so I've never had OnStar. I've never found it appealing anyway since I have most of those features on my smart phone anyway. It would only be helpful to me if I were in an accident and my phone was out of reach.

It needs two things to fix it. An easy to locate off switch that physically disables the entire onstar system and an emergency only subscription option with no resale of data.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2011/12/21/germany-builds-twice-as-many-cars-as-the-u-s-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/

Tell em to go to Green Hell


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yiah1fJ1MwM

That's well done.


Should have used "Green Hell" by The Misfits, tho, lol.

Cadillac leaving Michigan for NYC.

Cadillac leaving Michigan for NYC.

What a fucking joke.

Unions suck. Unions fucked Detroit. Unions fucked Michigan.

Moving Cadillac isn't about unions. It's about posh execs wanting to be in a posh place.
Ford did the same thing back in the '90s when it moved Lincoln to Orange County, CA.