Interesting bit of research done by an interested party. Puts to rest the "no talent" excuse. Face it folks, its the coach.

"The excuse is that scUM has no talent... So I went back and totaled up the rivals points from 2004-2008 to see how little talent they have. Every team loses players due to academics, injury, early NFL draft, etc... this is strictly about RECRUITING TALENT on signing day..

and the totals

10,055 Michigan
9,625 OSO
8,346 Notre Dame
6,828 PSU
4,744 Iowa
4,680 Illinois
4,652 MSU
4,017 Wisky
3,068 Purdue
2,731 Minni
1,246 Nwest
728 Indiana

Shocked? Not only have they recruited more than any other team, but look at the margin between them and say #4 PSU.... Its not even close.

And what were the top recruiting classes by Rivals points in the last 5 years?

#1 ND 2008 2,744
#2 OSU 2008 2,481
#3 PSU 2006 2,241
#4 scUM 2008 2,220
#5 ND 2006 2,189
#6 scUM 2004 2,116
#7 OSU 2006 2,000
#8 scUM 2005 1,995
#9 scUM 2006 1,974
#10 ND 2007 1,932

That's right 4 of the top 10 classes have been scUMs... and the top 2 classes are true freshman classes at ND and OSU so what impact do they have in reality?

and their starters?

5 stars - 3
4 stars - 11
3 stars - 7
2 stars - 1

class

2008 - 3 (mcguffie, odoms, I put threet here although he is a transfer)
2007 - 3
2006 - 6
2005 - 7
2004 - 3

14 starters rated 4 star or better and look at the class the starters were recruited... doesn't look young to me does it with 16 starters in the program 3 years or more?

Just wanted to clear some things up"

None of that translates into "the talent fits the system".

So in that regard, I agree that "it's the coach".

A coach with a completely different philosophy and scheme than Ol' Lloyd.

If you're going to ignore other threads, why should people not ignore this one?

If you're going to ignore other threads, why should people not ignore this one?
You sound a little prickly.

None of that translates into "the talent fits the system".

So in that regard, I agree that "it's the coach".

A coach with a completely different philosophy and scheme than Ol' Lloyd.
RR was supposed to be adaptable, remember?

Well, maybe he's not.

Maybe he knows what he wants and knows he has the job security to assemble it.

I don't know what your goal is here. Is it your hope that you are going to convince people that this was a bad hire?

Good luck with that after a handful of games.

I agree they have talent. I also agree Rich is not getting the most he can out of them. But, I'd rather have a down year where they are learning his system instead of an 8-4 year and putting off instilling his system. They will be better off next year taking their lumps now than if they simply ran a lot of Llyod's schemes to get wins now.

I'm not sure what you are looking for exactly. Yes, Michigan is horribly underachieving this year. I expected a few losses but still make a bowl game. However, I still think the hire was a good one.

Well, maybe he's not.

Maybe he knows what he wants and knows he has the job security to assemble it.

I don't know what your goal is here. Is it your hope that you are going to convince people that this was a bad hire?

Good luck with that after a handful of games.
My point is that MSU was faced with the exact same challenges last year as UM is this year with less overall talent on the team and had a very respectable season. Furthermore, my point is that by this measure Dantonio is a much better coach than RR and this fact will continue to be proven out. Thats my point.

PROPHECY!

My point is that MSU was faced with the exact same challenges last year as UM is this year with less overall talent on the team and had a very respectable season. Furthermore, my point is that by this measure Dantonio is a much better coach than RR and this fact will continue to be proven out. Thats my point.
Dantonio definately had a better first season, no doubt. Keep in mind that his skill position players were all upper classmen (besides Dell).

Hoyer, Culcrick, Ringer, Davis, Thomas. That gives them some solid leadership on offense. They also had quite a few quality players on defense as well.

Michigan has no leadership on offense, AT ALL. They lost basically their entire offense, plus a couple good safties and LB's. So you can't really say they've faced the same challenges.

Yes they both had the challege of instilling their own schemes, but the talent loss is not comparable IMO.

In the end I think they'll both be good coaches and both schools will be in the top 5 of the Big Ten consistently.

Furthermore, my point is that by this measure Dantonio is a much better coach than RR and this fact will continue to be proven out. Thats my point.


LOL!

Dantonio's a good coach, and it's good that he has a passion for MSU, but he's yet to win a big game. Call the UM win what you want, the Wolverines are 2-6, and probably looking at 2-10 when it's all said and done.

Let's take a look at the big games Dantonio has had since arriving to MSU, shall we...

9/29/07, @ #9 Wisconsin: MSU was 4-0 entering the Big Ten opener last year, and they lose.

10/20/07, @ #1 Ohio State: Played well, but still lost.

11/3/07, #12 Michigan: Blew a 4th quarter lead.

12/28/07, #14 Boston College: Champs Sports Bowl. This was the game where Brian Hoyer solidified his NFL draft stock.

8/30/08, @ California: It was 'Jahvid Best Field Day' in Berkeley.

10/12/08, #12 Ohio State: Game was over in the 1st quarter.


Dantonio has yet to beat a ranked opponenet since arriving at MSU. Even Rich Rodriguez beat #9 Wisconsin back in late September (I know Wisconsin sucks, but it still goes down as a win Vs. a ranked opponent).

All I'm saying bukdow, is have Dantonio knock off Penn St in a few weeks, then we'll talk.

Til' then...

If MSU, OSU and PSU all win out (besides MSU beating PSU on the last game), who wins the Big Ten? They would have all been 1-1 against each other.

LOL!

Dantonio's a good coach, and it's good that he has a passion for MSU, but he's yet to win a big game. Call the UM win what you want, the Wolverines are 2-6, and probably looking at 2-10 when it's all said and done.

Let's take a look at the big games Dantonio has had since arriving to MSU, shall we...

9/29/07, @ #9 Wisconsin: MSU was 4-0 entering the Big Ten opener last year, and they lose.

10/20/07, @ #1 Ohio State: Played well, but still lost.

11/3/07, #12 Michigan: Blew a 4th quarter lead.

12/28/07, #14 Boston College: Champs Sports Bowl. This was the game where Brian Hoyer solidified his NFL draft stock.

8/30/08, @ California: It was 'Jahvid Best Field Day' in Berkeley.

10/12/08, #12 Ohio State: Game was over in the 1st quarter.


Dantonio has yet to beat a ranked opponenet since arriving at MSU. Even Rich Rodriguez beat #9 Wisconsin back in late September (I know Wisconsin sucks, but it still goes down as a win Vs. a ranked opponent).

All I'm saying bukdow, is have Dantonio knock off Penn St in a few weeks, then we'll talk.

Til' then...
Most with a "spread" team that didn`t fit Dantonio`s "power running game". Now, lets look at what RR has done with his "ill-suited" squad with much more inherrant talent than Dantonio had. Wait, lets not, its just too damn ugly.

I've been battling the mouthbreathers on Scout for awhile, and there appear to be some here who are as dumb as them.

The talent argument is so overplayed and so deflective. Michigan has WWAAAAYYYYYYYYY better talent than not just being 2-6, but looking like non-competitive buffoons about 92% of the time.
Do you guys realize that Michigan has put together roughly six quarters of good football out of 48? Have you guys seen the regression since the Wisconsin game (yes, temporarily interrupted by the first half against Penn State and for stretches against Sparty)?
This team is a complete disaster, and LOOK! What's that I see? Recruits decommitting left and right.

Guys, facts is facts. It's bad, and RR has his hands fuller than John Holmes when he whacks off (before he died).

Most with a "spread" team that didn`t fit Dantonio`s "power running game". Now, lets look at what RR has done with his "ill-suited" squad with much more inherrant talent than Dantonio had. Wait, lets not, its just too damn ugly.

Ok listen, I'm not defending Rich Rod's season. I'll be the first to admit it's been awful this year, but to say he's a worse coach than Dantonio is just laughable.

John L. Smith's offense & Mark Dantonio's offense are FAR more similar than comparing Lloyd Carr's & Rich Rodriguez's offenses. If Michigan had hired, for example, Greg Schiano or Brady Hoke (a coach who ran a similar style of offense to what Lloyd ran), I'd guarantee we'd have 5 or 6 wins right now.

But I'm not judging Rich Rod on what happens right now. It's long-term. His futures far more bright here than Dantonio's is at MSU. Dantonio will never take MSU to a BCS bowl game, he'll never win the Big Ten, he'll never groom a top 5 recruiting class, and he'll never make 'Michigan State' anything more than "a team in the Big Ten" from a national standpoint.

MSU's 6 wins this year...

Eastern Michigan (2-7)
Florida Atlantic (3-5)
Notre Dame (5-2)
Indiana (3-5)
Iowa (5-3)
Northwestern (6-2)
Michigan (2-6)

All less than stellar, subpar, unranked teams.

So bukdow, I know your on cloud nine because Sparty has become bowl eligible for two straight seasons, but seriously...your argument is just flawed.

And you've learned nothing.

MSU's 6 wins this year...

Eastern Michigan (2-7)
Florida Atlantic (3-5)
Notre Dame (5-2)
Indiana (3-5)
Iowa (5-3)
Northwestern (6-2)
Michigan (2-6)

All less than stellar, subpar, unranked teams.

So bukdow, I know your on cloud nine because Sparty has become bowl eligible for two straight seasons, but seriously...your argument is just flawed.

Northwestern is a good win, ND, Michigan and Iowa were all decent wins. None is a signature win (like PSU winning in Columbus).

I agree they have talent. I also agree Rich is not getting the most he can out of them. But, I'd rather have a down year where they are learning his system instead of an 8-4 year and putting off instilling his system. They will be better off next year taking their lumps now than if they simply ran a lot of Llyod's schemes to get wins now.

I'm not sure what you are looking for exactly. Yes, Michigan is horribly underachieving this year. I expected a few losses but still make a bowl game. However, I still think the hire was a good one.

Really Chris? You are going accept a losing season instead of a mediocre season by Meeeeeechigan standards? No way that I believe that.

I am sick and tired of hearing the "wait til he gets his own players" arguement. It's a crock of crap and you know it. Carr did not leave the cupboard empty and there is plenty of talent on both sides of the ball. 8 returning defensive starters, along with depth that Carr recruited. I understand that there are shortcomings on the offensive side but come on. DickRod should be smart enough to adapt his offense to his players, exactly what Mark Dantonio did last year with all of John L.'s spread system recruited players. Dantonio looked at what he had, made personnel fit into where he needed (creating a FB from a LB I believe) and we got to a bowl game last year.

In the end I think they'll both be good coaches and both schools will be in the top 5 of the Big Ten consistently.

Sorry, but this really bothered me.

Top 5 in the Big Ten consistently is NOT acceptable at Michigan. Michigan needs to win 8 games next year and start competing for Big Ten titles consistently after that, or this hire was a complete flop. Rodriguez gets a free pass this year, but he sure as hell doesn't next season.

There's a very real chance Michigan could turn into Nebraska or Notre Dame. And we don't have the cushy benefits ND does.

Top 5 in the Big Ten is not the Michigan standard. The standard has been OSU, U of M, and Wisconsin at the top with everyone else looking for scraps at the bottom. MSU is climbing back towards the top but have a long way to go to prove they belong in the discussion of elite Big 10 teams.

I know it's only his first year but Dick Rod seems to have big blue heading in a downward spiral.

WTF? Am I supposed to say they'll both be the top team in the big ten? I think that they'll both be contending for big ten titles with OSU and PSU for years. Fucking roll me over the coals for saying such a thing.

And what is with this adapt your offense to your talent crap? All that does is delay their ability to run the offense. I'd rather have 10 starters on offense getting better in the system even if it doesn't fit the QB perfectly. Because when he's no longer starting everyone else is better for it. Instead you want them to win 7-8 games and then finally get comfortable with the offense that much later. Fuck that. Lose now while learning so you're ready to roll that much sooner.

You can't just take Llyod's guys and run a hybrid of Llyod's system because you're afraid of a down year. You have to take the step back in order to take two forward. After having conservative Carr we should be happy to have a coach willing to swing for the fences.

The Big Ten works like this...

1st Tier (at least two of these teams will finish in the Top 3 each year, the winner of the Big Ten will come out of this tier 9 out of 10 years)

- Ohio State
- Penn State
- Michigan
- Wisconsin

2nd-tier (at least one of these teams will finish in the top 3 or 4 each year, but almost never win the Big Ten)

- Purdue
- Iowa
- Illinois
- Michigan State


3rd-tier (at least one of these teams will finish in the top 5 every few years, but never win the Big Ten)

- Northwestern
- Indiana
- Minnesota

Very subtle how you put MSU at the bottom of the 2nd tier.

Very subtle how you put MSU at the bottom of the 2nd tier.

i was going to give you the excuse that it was alphabetical, but I realized I put Purdue first...

so you got me

Northwestern won the Big Ten just eight years ago and that was their third in like 5 years or something.

Northwestern won the Big Ten just eight years ago.

Well, Wil's done with this thread now, too.

I've been battling the mouthbreathers on Scout for awhile, and there appear to be some here who are as dumb as them.

The talent argument is so overplayed and so deflective. Michigan has WWAAAAYYYYYYYYY better talent than not just being 2-6, but looking like non-competitive buffoons about 92% of the time.
Do you guys realize that Michigan has put together roughly six quarters of good football out of 48? Have you guys seen the regression since the Wisconsin game (yes, temporarily interrupted by the first half against Penn State and for stretches against Sparty)?
This team is a complete disaster, and LOOK! What's that I see? Recruits decommitting left and right.

Guys, facts is facts. It's bad, and RR has his hands fuller than John Holmes when he whacks off (before he died).
Exactly. UM has plenty of talent. The fact this team is 2-6 with a loss to Toledo at home is utterly ridiculous.

Also, Zip makes a great point about the regression of the team over the course of the season. This falls entirely on the coaching staff. This is why I do not think that the team getting better next year is a given. The "system" QB everyone is hyped about will be a true freshmen and the defense loses 8 starters. Remember? The defense that was going to be a pack of murderous, wild animals and frankly, has the talent to be.

To me, all this points to poor coaching. There is absolutely no reason in hell this team should be 2-6 with the loses it has. None.

Concern troll. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=concern+troll)

Surprisingly, there's no entry for toolbox tumult.

Surprisingly, there's no entry for toolbox tumult.
I am ahead of the times. Here, I will provide a definition for "toolbox tumult"-- A violent or noisy commotion involving large overly physically developed people of suspect mental capacity. A rowdy confrontation involving "Palin dudes".

I am ahead of the times. Here, I will provide a definition for "toolbox tumult"-- A violent or noisy commotion involving large overly physically developed people of suspect mental capacity. A rowdy confrontation involving "Palin dudes".

That you are, my friend.

You can't just take Llyod's guys and run a hybrid of Llyod's system because you're afraid of a down year. You have to take the step back in order to take two forward. After having conservative Carr we should be happy to have a coach willing to swing for the fences.


Hmmm, I seem to recall a bowl game where they ran a hybrid of Llyod's system and it worked pretty well over Florida.......

That was Llyod running his offense without being a pussy conservative. That wasn't a hybrid.

I'm sure the terminology and plays are totally different. Llyod changed his philosophy for a game, not his playbook. he probably had all that shit in there for years and just decided to let it all hang out in his last game.

Chris, really? If that was the case then why didn't he run that all year?

Chris, really? If that was the case then why didn't he run that all year?
Because he was wrong and learned nothing from countless losses.

Don't ask me why he also ran the ball on first and second down and did a screen pass on 3rd and 8 for 10 years straight. I'll never understand why he didn't open it up sooner.

If you think that Florida game was a Rich Rod offense (or at least a portion), how come Henne had zero rushes (4 attempts for -24 yards that were sacks). it wasn't a hybrid at all. it was just Llyod ditching his conservative habits.

That Cap One bowl offense is THE offense UM should be using, and continue to use.

That Cap One bowl offense is THE offense UM should be using, and continue to use.

Agreed, and should have been using for the last 10 years. I would like the addition of a dual threat QB though.

If you think that Florida game was a Rich Rod offense (or at least a portion), how come Henne had zero rushes (4 attempts for -24 yards that were sacks). it wasn't a hybrid at all. it was just Llyod ditching his conservative habits.


I said it was a hybrid. We both know that Henne wasn't mobile and at that point, correct me if I am wrong, he was battling some injuries. I said it was a hybrid and they spread things out all over the place. I remember them running options and Henne pitching it all over the place.

Still doesn't change the fact that you have 8 returning defensive players that can't stop anyone. That has a lot to do with the coaching but look at what Dantonio is doing. We have far less talent yet we are pretty solid defensively.

Agreed, and should have been using for the last 10 years. I would like the addition of a dual threat QB though.


YES! That is something Threet could've done well in.

Remember in that game, Henne was in the gun almost exclusively. And Hart was able to run for over 100+ despite being lined up next to Henne, plus we had all those reverses to Manningham in that game.

RR is just too stubborn to adapt his offense to his personnel.

YES! That is something Threet could've done well in.

Remember in that game, Henne was in the gun almost exclusively. And Hart was able to run for over 100+ despite being lined up next to Henne, plus we had all those reverses to Manningham in that game.

RR is just too stubborn to adapt his offense to his personnel.

While I agree with 95% of what is being said I think we're forgetting a couple of things.....

1. Henne had established WR's (no matter the system used)
2. Mike Hart was a proven back (whether you like him or not)
3. The Spread was a surprise attack (I'm sure Florida had seen spreads, but were not ultimately prepared)
4. An experienced Offensive Line (#1 pick Jake Long must've been half decent)
5. A group of offensive players that were senior driven and experienced in the wars of college football (I wouldn't call Mike Massey "experienced")
6. A team that was winning it's last game for its leader


Now if you think RR has any of that going on right now then I understand you bashing his offense and calling him a terrible coach, but how can you compare the Florida game to our offense in general when its two completely different teams.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I wasn't picking on you Wil, just frustration with the thread in general.

While I agree with 95% of what is being said I think we're forgetting a couple of things.....

1. Henne had established WR's (no matter the system used)
2. Mike Hart was a proven back (whether you like him or not)
3. The Spread was a surprise attack (I'm sure Florida had seen spreads, but were not ultimately prepared)
4. An experienced Offensive Line (#1 pick Jake Long must've been half decent)
5. A group of offensive players that were senior driven and experienced in the wars of college football (I wouldn't call Mike Massey "experienced")
6. A team that was winning it's last game for its leader


Now if you think RR has any of that going on right now then I understand you bashing his offense and calling him a terrible coach, but how can you compare the Florida game to our offense in general when its two completely different teams.

All of that is true, especially the part about the surprise they opened up on Florida.
But that was a case of finally using the talent at your disposal, something Flloyd was never anything resembling good at.
But Rodriguez is not putting this team, with this talent, in the best position to win. In terms of Threet as QB, it's pretty clear that Rod Smiff ain't no quarterback coach, because all season long Threet has never stopped using his Luis Tiant-like windup to throw the football.
And that sideways shit looks horrible and isn't productive at all. Yet, we continue to see bubble screens about 953 times a game, sideways runs that all too often put the team in 2nd and 14, and eventually, in every game, Threet gets away from running tha ball and allowing opposing defenses to pin their ears back and kill Michigan running backs.

It's total poop.

I'd like to see what Threet can do if he could drop back and THEN step up in the pocket rather than being in the gun and having to step up before he can even look downfield.

I think the excessive bubble screens are a result of Threet panicking and checking it down to the RB because he's constantly under duress. He's not seeing his receivers on the posts or sidelines because he's having to waste time selling a fake handoff before he can look downfield. And since Koger & Moundros aren't normally lined up as blockers in RR's shotgun package (usually he lines Koger up as a WR), there's not enough blockers to pick up a 5 or 6 man rush.

I love Threet's heart and you can tell he want's to be able to master this offense, but he's just not cut out for the job. With Tate enrolling in January, and Rich Rod's stubbornness, I think it's better than a 70% chance Forcier starts the opener next year.

My uncle lives in San Diego, and had the opportunity to see Forcier play a couple weeks ago. He told me that even though he lacks size (6'1''), his ability to throw accurately while on the run was incredible. Plus, his 40 time is like a full second better than Threet's. Writings on the wall, Threet needs to take the 'Matt Gutierrez' route.