Let's see them be all adversarial in close quarters!

BO should just play it cool and he will be Prez.

Obama was a big fat zero. McCain had some surprise. Obviously, Joe the plumber won big-time!
EASpPlcVbdI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EASpPlcVbdI

Oh, the post-debate snap polls show Obama winning this debate too.

Fox, afaict, is saying nothing but BO won it.

McCain went into Kitchen Sink mode tonight like everyone wanted him to. I'm kind of surprised that it took him so long. He brought out every "character" argument he knew.

Obviously Obama's tactic was similar to the priests in The Exorcist: don't engage, don't argue, don't take the bait. And that was the tactic that seems to have put him over the top. I've heard of "too little, too late" but I think McCain invented something new called "too much, too late."

It was interesting when the question of negative campaigning came up. It seemed to launch McCan't into even MORE mudslinging.

Agreed. All Obama had to do was not screw up. McCan't looked lost up there, simply throwing everything at the wall and hoping something sticks.

I especially remembered the part where Obama retaliated regarding the supposed "fees" he would imposed to those with no health care packages. When he said "zero", McCain literally dropped his jaw and gaped. Regardless of why he did, it looked like someone who just got caught doing something naughty.

i don't think mccain's strategy of combining the same answers from previous debates with a dose of debunked bullshit was a winning strategy. My favorite line:

McCain: Mr. Ayers, I don't care about an old washed-up terrorist. But as Senator Clinton said in her debates with you, we need to know the full extent of that relationship.

At least, we didn't have to sit through another parsing of what kissinger thinks (as if it should matter what kissinger thinks anyway).

McCain went into Kitchen Sink mode tonight like everyone wanted him to. I'm kind of surprised that it took him so long. He brought out every "character" argument he knew.
Actually, he didn't rattle off all the names he used as attacks in the campaign ads -- Rezko, Wright, Daley, etc.

McCain's performance was muddled even at its best.

His bullshit about Ireland's business taxes ignores the fact that Ireland is in a recession and people are leaving the country. He doesn't seem to get that one big reason the recession has hit Ireland harder than most is BECAUSE the Irish were so tax-cut crazy.

His bullshit about the $6.8 billion he spent fighting the 2003 Boeing bid ignores the fact that, at the end of the day, the deal still isn't done, and that inaction cost people. Oh, there was that little interlude where McCain lobbied for French Airbus to get the re-bid, and all those lobbyists work for him...

I was amused at how hard they were fighting for Joe the plumber's vote... kinda funny since the Joe in question isn't registered to vote. Joe has since confessed that he's NOT in $250k+ "rich" bracket where Obama says his tax cuts hit him, but still thinks Obama's going to raise his taxes anyway.

And this was all before McCain's meltdown where he was talking about John Lewis and Ayers...

Here's some fact checking by the way:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27206446/?GT1=43001
(yes, Wil, it's MSNBC, I'm sure the facts are wrong)

I guarantee that Palin will out on the stump today babbling about "Joe the plumber".

They are going to try and make this guy into an icon of some kind, it's all very Wag the Doggish.

It's fun to watch the immediate post-debate reaction from the right wing pundits. They go on and on about how McCain won, and then the polls start coming in and show that the people see Obama as the winner and their frustration is just palpable.

Great sig, Swami.

I thought that "zero" was Obama's best moment in the debate.

McCain's reaction helped Obama even more.

Great sig, Swami.

I thought that "zero" was Obama's best moment in the debate.

McCain's reaction helped Obama even more.

I missed the debate - what exactly happened there?

I missed the debate - what exactly happened there?

This is exactly what happened, unedited.

alRIGhNJpZc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRIGhNJpZc

I love the snap polls. It cuts out all the pundit bullshit. Obama appears to have won independents by about 2:1 yet again.

Knowledge Networks/CBS:
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/15/politics/horserace/entry4525171.shtml
Opinion Research/CNN:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/15/debate.poll/
SurveyUSA:
http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=2781429f-786e-4830-bf64-d896decf284c
MediaCurves:
http://mediacurves.com/Images/pres3-results.jpg

I'm somewhat curious about the MSNBC fact check that says that Obama's plans aren't revenue-neutral:


OBAMA: "Every dollar that I've proposed, I've proposed an additional cut, so that it matches."

THE FACTS: The bipartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget estimates that his programs would add $281 billion to the deficit at the end of his first term. The analysis includes Obama's proposals for saving money.

Because those very same folks just two weeks ago said his plans were, with a specific quote from former McCain adviser Maya MacGuineas:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/10/obamas_trillion_dollar_spendin.html

The non-partisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget calculates that Obama has promised a total of $990 billion in new spending over his first four-year term. At the same time, he has also proposed spending cuts that amount to around $989 billion, so the net cost roughly balances out. The debt will continue to increase, more or less in line with current projections, based on keeping most of the Bush tax cuts.

"Obama has talked about a lot of new spending initiatives, but he has also talked about new ways to curb spending," said Maya MacGuineas, president of the Committee, whose detailed budget analyses are available here. "I give him points for holding the line."

Also, their factcheck about medical premiums assumes that the only savings in medical premiums come from automation, that there wouldn't be any savings from, say, the collective buying power of the federal government. And the factcheck where Obama says it's 95% of Americans when the Tax Policy Center says it's only 81% of households doesn't seem to grok that households often have more than one person in them... false equivalency.

Oh well... back to work.

McCain's line about you should have run 4 years ago if you wanted to run against Bush was a good one. The problem is he's been soaking up the Bush/McCain comparison for too long now. That would have been a good line in the first debate. McCain just got way too wierd at the end. He was seething all the time, he went off topic to attack other issues. he just look rattled and Obama kept his cool. I don't think Obama made any great points, but he didn't have to.

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20081016/i/r1772410910.jpg

I'm beginning to wonder if Obama figured out how to push McCain's buttons.

For instance, I think Obama figured out that if he kept it positive, McCain would do nothing but talk about Obama. +1 Obama.

McCain does not like to be ignored or disregarded. When he lays out the personal accusations, Obama responds calmly and without looking at McCain, and further insinuates that the accusations are coming out of a party or campaign, and not coming from McCain himself. McCain gets frustrated, looks like Grumpa McCranky. +2 Obama.

I wonder if it would have been considered elitist for obama to point out how unlikely it would be a for a small ohio plumbing business to earn profits in excess of $250,000. It was such obvious bullshit. You could tell that mccain was chomping at the bit to point out that obama was out of touch for wanting to tax income greater than $250,000. He really wanted $250,000+ = middle class plumber in ohio, no matter how ridiculous the notion is. Anyways, it was fun to see the anger in mccain's eyes when he congratulated joe the plumber on being rich. It is hard to "talk directly to the american people" when you are really seething at your opponent (an opponent that hasn't even done anything provacative other than refute mccain talking points). I personally think that the anger is really an acknowledgment that mccain will lose the election unless something happens that is completely out of his control. anyways, i am sure that psychologists have a field day watching mccain debates.

I guarantee that Palin will out on the stump today babbling about "Joe the plumber".

They are going to try and make this guy into an icon of some kind, it's all very Wag the Doggish.

It's fun to watch the immediate post-debate reaction from the right wing pundits. They go on and on about how McCain won, and then the polls start coming in and show that the people see Obama as the winner and their frustration is just palpable.

Kristol, Barnes, etc didn't say that. They were on the 'immediate post-debate' coverage on Fox. Granted there are others, but Fox didn't do that last night, imo anyway.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I wasn't watching Fox last night after the debate.

Pat Buchanan has said after every debate so far that McCain won, lol.

JM was a lil fiesty or is it feisty whatver, last night but thats about it, imo.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I wasn't watching Fox last night after the debate.

Pat Buchanan has said after every debate so far that McCain won, lol.
Both of the republican analysts on CNN also declared McCain the winner initially (Castellanos and Sanchez). They said he was clearly on the attack and Obama looked flat. However today's "report card" shows them giving C's and saying he made no compelling case why he should be president.

Everyone else said this was his strongest debate, but that he looked old and bitter and not very presidential. They all thought republicans would be happy, but that independents would not be impressed, especially with some of the positions he outlined in the debate. Most of them were targeted at McCain's base.

I think he made some good points, but they were all overshadowed by his poor demeanor.

Overlooked great ideas in mccain debate history:

the idea that it is ridiculous to think about safety in regard to nuclear energy as if the relatively small amount of energy needed to operate a submarine away from population centers demonstrates the safety of huge complexes producing much greater amounts of energy. Also, what would stop terrorists from taking a job at one of those plants and using the waste for a relatively simple dirty bomb?

The idea that soldiers don't need a teaching certificate: do they need to graduate from college, high school? what is the standard? i was surprised he didn't reference clearing and holding individual school districts.

The idea that houses increase in value the moment banks are repaid the full amount of a mortgage. At best, his 'plan' would stop home prices from falling, but home prices would not magically start to rise. The reason we had a housing bubble is that houses were over-valued. That imaginary wealth is never coming back- it was an illusion. Plus, his plan is a huge give away to banks with the worst lending practices. it is the pure essence of bush's crony capitalism disguised as a plan to help struggling families.

It is amusing to hear about the need for candor about ayers from a man that once insisted that keating 5 scandal was the most dishonorable event of his life, but now claims to have been fully exonerated. when you factor in the incessant lies mccain and palin tell about her record, it becomes an absolute joke.

I just hope that the race baiting about acorn and subprime mortgages ends soon. our economy is hanging by a thread right now which greatly increases the odds of civil disobediance as it is.

Great points on the nuc-u-lar subs and the "soldiers as teachers" ideas.

I was shaking my head at both of those last night, too.

That's at least the second time that he's done that incredulous nuc-u-lar submarine routine.

I can't believe he actually used his nuke sub experience to talk about the safety of nuclear energy. You've been treated for cancer 3 times, dumbass!

OK: the above post was meaner than I intended it to be, but I own up to my mistakes and I will leave it unedited.

I think Obama's idea on penalty-free retirement account withdrawals is terribly short sighted. Every dollar drawn out of those accounts now is going to cost a lot more down the road. It only shifts problems, maybe even making them worse in the future, rather than solving anything.

I hope this is something he abandons or dies in congress.

Agreed. It's a terrible idea.

I think Obama's idea on penalty-free retirement account withdrawals is terribly short sighted. Every dollar drawn out of those accounts now is going to cost a lot more down the road. It only shifts problems, maybe even making them worse in the future, rather than solving anything.

I hope this is something he abandons or dies in congress.
I was a little confused when I read this at first. There's two ideas along this vein that Obama's proposed:

1) Access to IRAs without penalties in the event of emergency

We already have that, for the most part. I haven't dug into it fully, but I think all Obama's doing here is expanding the already-existing definition of "emergency" beyond medical expenses, taxes, college, first-time homes.

2) No taxes on minimum required withdrawals once you're older, for now.

That tax is also considered a "penalty" (thus my confusion). Yeah, that could have some serious tax revenue impact, but the "down the road" impact would be for federal government, not the 60-70+ year olds doing the withdrawal.

I was a little confused when I read this at first. There's two ideas along this vein that Obama's proposed:

1) Access to IRAs without penalties in the event of emergency

We already have that, for the most part. I haven't dug into it fully, but I think all Obama's doing here is expanding the already-existing definition of "emergency" beyond medical expenses, taxes, college, first-time homes.

2) No taxes on minimum required withdrawals once you're older, for now.

That tax is also considered a "penalty" (thus my confusion). Yeah, that could have some serious tax revenue impact, but the "down the road" impact would be for federal government, not the 60-70+ year olds doing the withdrawal.
Here's what I read... (http://www.usnews.com/blogs/planning-to-retire/2008/10/16/how-obama-and-mccain-want-to-change-your-retirement-accounts.html)


Barack Obama proposed penalty-free hardship withdrawals from IRAs and 401(k)'s, which are currently subject to a 10 percent early withdrawal penalty for those younger than age 59½ who need access to their retirement stash. Fifteen percent of the account—up to $10,000—may be withdrawn in 2008 (including retroactively) and 2009 but will still be subject to normal taxes.
You can't normally take money out of your 401k for any reason. Emergencies included. You can borrow against it but you can't withdraw. His proposal isn't for old people, it's for everyone and taking up to $10,000 out of a 401k now could cost many times that amount depending on how far you are from retirement.

It's an inducement to raid the 401k and a bad idea.

What follows is the part that applies to current retirees, I don't have an issue with this:



Both Obama and John McCain's recently proposed economic plans will also allow retirees to avoid selling off their retirement assets while the market is at historic lows (http://www.usnews.com/blogs/planning-to-retire/2008/10/8/retirement-savers-lost-2-trillion-in-the-stock-market.html?s_cid=rss:planning-to-retire:retirement-savers-lost-2-trillion-in-the-stock-market). Currently, annual withdrawals from traditional IRAs are required for everyone age 70½ or older. These required minimum distributions (http://www.usnews.com/articles/business/retirement/2007/12/11/6-tips-on-retirement-account-withdrawals.html) are taxed as income. Both senators have circulated proposals to temporarily suspend the required withdrawals for seniors over age 70½. This will allow flailing nest eggs more time to recover from recent market turbulence (http://www.usnews.com/blogs/planning-to-retire/2008/10/10/stock-market-gains-from-past-three-years-wiped-out.html?s_cid=rss:planning-to-retire:stock-market-gains-from-past-three-years-wiped-out).


But some retirees (http://www.usnews.com/blogs/planning-to-retire/2008/10/8/survey-americans-changing-their-retirement-plans-because-of-the-economy.html?s_cid=rss:planning-to-retire:survey-americans-changing-their-retirement-plans-because-of-the-economy)need to tap their retirement accounts for immediate expenses and can't put off their distributions until the market improves. To help this group of retirees, both candidates plan to lower the tax rate on retirement account withdrawals, which are currently taxed as income. McCain will tax withdrawals from retirement accounts at the 10 percent rate up to the first $50,000 withdrawn. Obama will exempt from taxation any withdrawals made up to the required minimum amount.

Ahhh... I see what you're getting at. What Obama said in the debate is:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/15/debate.transcript/index.html

Let's allow them to access their IRA accounts without penalty if they're experiencing a crisis.
which didn't faze me any. We already do that, for the most part. There's all kinds of emergencies that permit you to borrow from your retirement savings without penalty. But reading the more-specific speech about his new plan, I understand where you're coming from -- the speciifc language goes:

http://www.barackobama.com/2008/10/13/remarks_of_senator_barack_obam_136.php

Since so many Americans will be struggling to pay the bills over the next year, I propose that we allow every family to withdraw up to 15% from their IRA or 401(k) - up to a maximum of $10,000 - without any fine or penalty throughout 2009. This will help families get through this crisis without being forced to make painful choices like selling their homes or not sending their kids to college.
This wouldn't make sense for most people, because the withdrawal would still count as income you'd be taxed on. If you're unemployed and using it to pay down credit card debt at interest rates greater than (retirement savings appreciation + low tax for withdrawal), that's actually NOT so bad. I agree that it's generally not worth it, but this isn't evil as long as you understand what "withdrawal" really means and do the math. (Yeah, I'm probably dreaming.)


You can't normally take money out of your 401k for any reason.
Yes, you can. It's called getting old. :)

Great points on the nuc-u-lar subs and the "soldiers as teachers" ideas.

I was shaking my head at both of those last night, too.

That's at least the second time that he's done that incredulous nuc-u-lar submarine routine.

I guess McCain isn't familiar with Chernobyl at all. Sure, technologies have improved. But McCain stands up there and touts it like there is no risk involved.