I'm thinkin Thursday is going to be thumpin. She's green.

I'm thinkin Thursday is going to be thumpin. She's green.
If debates were about issues more so than attack strategy, she'd get thumped. Luckily if she keeps enough attacks coming false and true, half the debate will be Biden defending himself against bs like Obama was. This will protect her enough i guess. All she has to do is keep the base happy and with neo cons that's not hard. They only need enough rope to spin.

The VP debate needs its own thread.

The VP debate needs its own thread.

I was going to start it with that post but it just felt like it would take too much energy at the time.

The VP debate needs its own thread.

:cogent:

I'm not sure I have enough schadenfreude in me to watch "Godzilla vs. I Am Sam."

Do y'all get Southwest Airline commercials? Wanna get away?

I'm thinkin they might be recording Palin in this debate.

I've been hearing people say that they want Biden to ask Palin if she wants to "use of her lifelines", but as funny as that might be, I sure hope he doesn't.

I hope SNL finds a better person to imitate Biden than they do Obama.

Biden's strategy: Go easy on Palin

By: Roger Simon, Politico
September 30, 2008 10:20 AM EST

If Sarah Palin goofs, flounders, stumbles or blunders during her debate against Joe Biden on Thursday night, Biden is going to let it slide.

“If she makes a gaffe, he underplays it,” one of the people prepping Biden for his vice presidential debate told me. “At most, he says, ‘I am not sure what Gov. Palin meant there.’”

There are three reasons for this. First, Biden does not want to look condescending. For the same reason, he plans on referring to Palin as “Gov. Palin” during the debate and never as “Sarah.” (He will sometimes refer to John McCain as “John,” however, because they have been senators together for many years.)

Second, Biden knows the press is going to pounce on any mistakes, and so he does not need to.

Third, and most important, Sarah Palin is not Biden’s true target.

“Joe Biden’s No. 1 job during the vice presidential debate is to keep the focus on the top of the ticket,” the Biden debate prepper told me. “He is going to keep the focus on John McCain.”

This is an arguable strategy. After all, McCain is the experienced one on the Republican ticket, the one whose credentials to be commander in chief from Day One are not in much question.

So why attack him instead of Palin, whose lack of readiness has been the subject of endless discussion as well as late-night comedy?

Because, at least in the past, Americans have not concentrated on the bottom of the ticket when it comes time to vote. They care about who the president is going to be, not who the vice president is going to be.

Dan Quayle had a disastrous debate against Lloyd Bentsen in 1988. Even before Quayle stumbled into the trap of comparing himself to John F. Kennedy, Quayle had enormous difficulty answering this basic question from Brit Hume: “Let us assume … the president is incapacitated for one reason or another, and you have to take the reins of power. When that moment came, what would be the first steps that you’d take and why?”

(Gratuitous advice to Biden and Palin: Have an answer ready for this one, just in case.)

Quayle had no answer, looked shellshocked and mumbled something about how he would “say a prayer for myself and for the country.” (He wouldn’t have been the only one.)

After the debate, Susan Estrich, Michael Dukakis’ campaign manager, came into the press filing center wearing a blue button that said “President Quayle?” Other Democrats wore more grisly red buttons that showed an EKG graph with the words “Quayle — A Heartbeat Away.”

Quayle was considered a joke after that debate. But he got to the White House. Americans decided that the top of the ticket — George H.W. Bush — was a lot more important than the bottom of the ticket.

But wait. Things are different now, aren’t they? We are engaged in shooting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, our economy is teetering on the verge of collapse, and the top of the Republican ticket is 72 years old and a cancer survivor. So won’t Americans care more this time about whether Sarah Palin is really qualified to be president should she need to be? Won’t they care more this time about who the running mate is?

Probably not, says the Obama campaign. “Who a candidate chose as his running mate may be one factor in how a voter feels about the presidential candidate,” a top aide to Barack Obama told me. “But at the end of the day, voters go into the booth and vote for who they want as president.”

Biden is prepping hard. While he does not expect to make much of any gaffes Palin might commit, he is preparing his own lines of attack on her record.

But at the end of the debate, he will not judge his success on whether the audience believes Biden is a better choice than Palin. He wants the audience to believe Obama is a better choice than McCain.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122265784614384667.html


But in recent days, Gov. Palin flubbed quasi-mock debates in New York City and Philadelphia, some operatives said.

Many analysts have suggetsed that she'll be prepped with one or two "key phrases" (think Reagan's, "There you go again") that she can use over and over whenever she is in trouble.

There are a lot of reports about the smell of fear emanating from McCain's camp about Thursday night.

I can hardly wait.

she dominated her Alaska debates, hopefully she can hold her own on Thursday

either way, the liberals are going to say she lost and twist her words, so I really am not going to put much stock into this thing...

she dominated her Alaska debates, hopefully she can hold her own on Thursday
Those were three-person debates, on issues she was much more comfortable talking about. She was able to let the two experienced people beat themselves up. Two-person debates are a different beast. Sometimes people shine. Other times, people fail. We'll see. The expectations for her are awfully low. If she shows up wearing the right clothes, it'll be spun as some kind of Palin win.

either way, the liberals are going to say she lost and twist her words,

Her words aren't twisted already?

Oh, those rotten, underhanded liberals!

Her words aren't twisted already?


It's a battle she can't win (the debates) with the media. So there's no point in taking much from it if your a conservative.

It's a battle she can't win (the debates) with the media. So there's no point in taking much from it if your a conservative.

So if I read you right, you think her shortcomings are all media fabrications?

It's a battle she can't win (the debates) with the media. So there's no point in taking much from it if your a conservative.


So if I read you right, you think her shortcomings are all media fabrications?

... (http://www.thesoundarchive.com/caddyshack/waiting.wav)

UYaJkWUBP3s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYaJkWUBP3s

I'm hearing rumors that Palin might not show up. Any truth to that?

I really hope she does.

Where will they hide the microphone with which to feed her answers?

Gwen Ifill shouldn't be conducting this thing.

I'm not watching this garbage, could they possibly have set this thing up any more in Obama/Biden's favor?

To hell with the debates, I'm voting for McCain/Palin no matter what.

Fuck Obama.

I'm voting for McCain/Palin no matter what.

Fuck Obama.

no matter what.

no matter what.
Thanks for illustrating a very important point.

Gwen Ifill shouldn't be conducting this thing.

I'm not watching this garbage, could they possibly have set this thing up any more in Obama/Biden's favor?

To hell with the debates, I'm voting for McCain/Palin no matter what.

Fuck Obama.

This is a big reason why I dislike American Politics.

Both campaigns agreed to the moderators and the formats a looooong time ago.

Stop whining.

Gwen Ifill shouldn't be conducting this thing.

I'm not watching this garbage, could they possibly have set this thing up any more in Obama/Biden's favor?
Ifill's been known to have been doing her book on new black politicians for awhile now. I heard about it while watching her show on PBS weeks (and probably months) ago. Brokaw's acting as informal liaison between NBC and McCain. Should that discount him?

If the Republicans didn't know that, it's their own fault. My sense is that they did know, and this is pre-debate spin-doctoring.

Okay, I wish this was happening tonight.

LOL, when you have to agree on Ifil as a moderator it says a lot about the media.

OMG, and then the book. Thats some funny stuff.

Suggestion: Y'all should have a chat and post it afterwards.

It's be a great read.

... (http://www.thesoundarchive.com/caddyshack/waiting.wav)

I guess Wil just didn't read this, for some reason.

That's unusual.

First off, why didn't they do any research on her prior to agreeing on the moderator selection?

Second, it looks like McCain's camp thinks she will conduct things appropriately.


The McCain (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/candidates/john.mccain.html) campaign said it had not seen Ifill's Post interview, or been aware of her book, until Tuesday. McCain told CNN's Juan Carlos Lopez that the situation concerned him but that he was sure Ifill would be professional.

Ifill's got a solid rep as a neutral journalist, there really shouldn't be a problem.

It's much harder for the McCain camp to paint Sarah as the victim with a female moderator, but since the victim angle is the one that they have chosen, they basically had to play the race card.

Ifill says that she wishes that peeps wouldn't pre-judge her moderation, but has no problem with them doing so after they see the debate. That's honorable, IMO.

But no worries, I'm sure the "the debate was biased" ads are already produced and ready to ship out.

Hasn't Palin already won the debate??

To use a sports analogy (not an original one, it's been out there for days now), the McCain camp is really "working the refs" and hoping for a favorable call.

It could actually work, who knows? Is it possible that under the hot lights that Ifill keeps this criticism in the back of her mind and is a little tougher on Biden (or easier on Palin) than she would have been otherwise.

PLAY THAT VICTIM CARD, JOHN(NY)


Here McCain's exchange on "Fox & Friends," as released by Fox News Channel:

HOST BRIAN KILMEADE: Right now a recent study says and the polls reflect that Barack Obama is gaining ever since this crisis has landed in everyone’s kitchen table, why is that?

McCAIN: Because life isn’t fair. ... He certainly did nothing for the first few days. I suspended my campaign, took our ads down, came back to Washington, met with the House folks and got on the phone, and also had face to face meetings.

HOST GRETCHEN CARLSON: Do you think it will work to your advantage [having Ifill moderate the debate given her book] because people will really be looking at her questions?

McCAIN: Frankly, I wish they had picked a moderator that isn’t writing a book favorable to Barack Obama. Let’s face it. But I have to have to have confidence that Gwen Ifill will handle this as the professional journalist that she is. ... Life isn’t fair, as I mentioned earlier in the program.

http://www.cremationofcare.com/images/newspics/violin_animated.gif

Odds of Obama responding to the "Life isn't fair" remark with something about how unfair it's been for the average middle class person: 100%

Good call Mxy. That would make a great commercial.

BTW, McCain didn't suspend anything. That's total BS. He still had the ads out there. He still did his interview that morning (was it the Today show?). What a load of crap.

Odds of Obama responding to the "Life isn't fair" remark with something about how unfair it's been for the average middle class person: 100%


What, exactly, has been unfair for the middle-class? Obama wants to focus his campaign on "putting the middle-class first". But what the hell does that mean?

I shouldn't have to research that on my own, he should tell me.

OTHER than his "95% tax cuts for people making less than 250K" catchphrase, which given his senate voting history, I have a fair reason to think that's nothing but a lie, he's said nothing about what he plans to do.

I've been raised in a middle-class home, and I've never sensed being treated "unfairly". College tuition, finding a job & gas prices are expensive for everybody, not just the middle-class.

Your never going to satisfy the middle-class, because those are the people who are trying to get ahead and be part of the "upper-class" (a.k.a. the people they're jealous of and bitch about). And when you do get to the upper-class, liberal propaganda will tax you up the ass, just because it's assumed you have more disposable income.

It's impossible for a middle-class citizen to "get ahead" with a liberal government.

Just look where Granholm got us...

Hasn't Palin already won the debate??

She did. She was awesome. And Joe thinking there really are 57 states. :)

She stared into his eyes and convinced his soul he should quit the race.

This race could be over after tonight.

What, exactly, has been unfair for the middle-class? Obama wants to focus his campaign on "putting the middle-class first". But what the hell does that mean?

I shouldn't have to research that on my own, he should tell me.
So McCain has outlined everything he's said thoroughly to you?

I'm just as interested in the post-debate spin wars than the actual debate.

Get ready to read/hear about how "she did better than everyone thought she would" and "how she passed/crossed the threshhold", etc.

Should be LOLs for all.

Its going to be one receiver but I'm more interested in the games.

^Self defense mechanism. :(

I'm just as interested in the post-debate spin wars than the actual debate.

Get ready to read/hear about how "she did better than everyone thought she would" and "how she passed/crossed the threshhold", etc.

Should be LOLs for all.

How closed minded of you.

Well ol Biden used the 'watchamacallit card' tonight. But I'm sure we won't hear much about that. lol

And like I said, I wouldn't bring it up if hadn't been brought up about JM

I was only able to listen to the last 15 min because my class ran late today...


Any gaffes?

I had to DVR it, but I talked to someone who watched it and said both parties played it pretty safe. Palin was very well coached. The only thing that I heard was a little suspect is Palin winked at the crowd a couple of times.

That's all I heard - I didn't see any of it yet.

Yeah I saw the Palin winks. She didn't hit it out of the park, per se, but she got bat on ball and I think it was enough to keep the media off her about it.

So McCain has outlined everything he's said thoroughly to you?

No, but since McCain and Palin are Republicans, most of what they will do for the middle class goes without saying.

Mainly stereotypical GOP propaganda (lower taxes, less government, inequality, etc.)

There's nothing wrong with giving tax breaks to the rich. They're the people who create jobs, start small businesses, and have earned the right to be part of the upper-class.

51 Good point cept the VP power thing.

The media will sieze on that opportunity to tie her to a VP with low, low, low approvals. They all need to have something to talk about till the next Prez debate afterall.

"...and they all agree, John McCain is the man to leave...lead, this nation."

LOL


Palin didn't do quite as badly as I thought she would. That being said, she really didn't answer any questions either.

The topic of Cheney and his urging to offer the VP position more power as a part of the executive branch was the big eye opener. After her answer, I seriously have doubts Palin has ever read the Constitution. Obviously, not many of us have ('cept fpr Mxy... and maybe Xanadu...ok ok, and Glenn), but being a mayor AND a governor, I simply cannot believe she has not.

There's nothing wrong with giving tax breaks to the rich. They're the people who create jobs, start small businesses, and have earned the right to be part of the upper-class.

Agreed, up to a point.

Small businesses should be given tax breaks, but not the rich. Look, this is not a point of contention: the rich can afford to pay people to save them money, pure and simple. If you tax them more, they'll simply squak for more loopholes and write-offs. If you cut their taxes, they'll continue to use the same loopholes and write-offs. In the end, you gain nothing by adding tax to the wealthy, and you still gain nothing if you leave them alone. The answer is a simplification of the tax code.

Cut that shit down to the page length of "Michigan State Championships: A History" and we'll all be better for it.

I was watching this on PBS and I thought Mark Shields pretty much nailed it: this stops the bleeding for the McCain campaign, but it probably doesn't do much else. I was surprised at Sarah Palin's sudden confidence at the podium, but I was also disappointed with her inability to say "this is our plan and this is what we're going to do."

So Sarah Palin Ability++, but Sarah Palin Straightforwardness--. Less dense, but a little more phony.

All in all, not much substance to this debate. I'm glad it's the only VP debate.

A few random observations:

"RAAAAWWWW! CAN I CALL YOU JOE?" lol!

BIDEN: "I was taught a long time ago to respect even Jesse Helms, and that guy was a total dickbag!"

PALIN: "MAVERICK MAVERICK MAVERICK MAVERICK MAVERICK. MAVERICK? MAVERICK!!!!" She said "maverick" more times than fucking James Garner.

The Cheney question was straight up PWNAGE for Biden. You rarely see a guy in a political debate just speak his mind, and he flat out did it. Good for him.

I hated both of them constantly referring to their running mates. That was weak sauce.

Palin's got cankles. Hey hey hey, I'm not criticizing. She's 44. I'm sure Joe Biden's got some cankles too.

Palin's smile is like the beard of Billy Mays. It JUST DOES NOT STOP. I'm not saying I think Sarah Palin is nearly as awesome as Billy Mays. She probably couldn't sell me OxyClean, but maybe if the product was a little bit better and didn't destroy rubber, her unblinking, steel-reinforced smile might get me to buy it.

They both actually seem like nice people, but they're both doing the phony debate thing and that's just insufferable.

"I'm so glad to hear that we both love Israel." Please just shut the fuck up. Your entire life, you met two Jews: Joe Lieberman and Henry Kissinger. Do battle with my Nana when she's drunk on Manischewitz on Purim, and come back to me on loving the Jews.

These debates suck. I wish they would just stop doing them.

After her answer, I seriously have doubts Palin has ever read the Constitution. Obviously, not many of us have ('cept fpr Mxy...
Who needs to read the Constitution when you have Schoolhouse Rock?
Q_TXJRZ4CFc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_TXJRZ4CFc
:)

Who needs to read the Constitution when you have Schoolhouse Rock?
Q_TXJRZ4CFc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_TXJRZ4CFc
:)
Do they have something on the 4th Amendment? Because I'm pretty sure not even the Supreme Court Justices have read that one.

She was terrible... all her answers were about her stint in Alaska fighting off the evil deed doers while using big words that had abosolutely no substance to what her policies were... the only thing I could get out of her talking in circles was that she would support handicaps and supported Israel... oh yeay she doesn't want gays to get any assistance for being married... I'm serious what did she actually say about details of policies?
I came in with an open mind and left with thinking she doesn't have a clue about specifics on health care or improving economic conditions (unless it's only about more drilling in Alaska)...
He kicked her ass up and down and twice more for effect.
Biden effectively proved McCains failures on defense policies.
Let's see the spinmasters try to turn this turd into a diamond.

The Cheney question was straight up PWNAGE for Biden. You rarely see a guy in a political debate just speak his mind, and he flat out did it. Good for him.

Yep.



Palin's smile is like the beard of Billy Mays. It JUST DOES NOT STOP. I'm not saying I think Sarah Palin is nearly as awesome as Billy Mays. She probably couldn't sell me OxyClean, but maybe if the product was a little bit better and didn't destroy rubber, her unblinking, steel-reinforced smile might get me to buy it.

Fuck Billy Mays. My mom just bought that Awesome Auger contraption, and it didn't even come with the cotter pins to put it together. When she called to complain, they said they'd send her some... for $10!!! I said FUCK Billy Mays for doing that to my mama!!!


"I'm so glad to hear that we both love Israel." Please just shut the fuck up. Your entire life, you met two Jews: Joe Lieberman and Henry Kissinger. Do battle with my Nana when she's drunk on Manischewitz on Purim, and come back to me on loving the Jews.

There's still Jewish posters on WTF? I thought Taymelo was the last?


These debates suck. I wish they would just stop doing them. Still better than Jeopardy.

The undecideds appear to have judged this a win for Biden.

Palin did much better than expected because she simply ignored questions she couldn't answer in favor of the ones she had talking points for. The few times she wandered off the plantation trying to respond to the actual thing she was asked will prove to be her weakest moments.

The undecideds appear to have judged this a win for Biden.

Palin did much better than expected because she simply ignored questions she couldn't answer in favor of the ones she had talking points for. The few times she wandered off the plantation trying to respond to the actual thing she was asked will prove to be her weakest moments.

RACIST!!!!!!

Oh wait, I cracked a Jewish joke the post before.

.....*

Nevermind.

Yeah, I think she helped rally the GOP base (except for the gay rights part which I think will be rescinded)...I just don't think she did anything to pull in all those independents they need. She kept throwing out the phrases like Maverick, but I think those were all put to rest by the couple quotable comments that Biden had linking McCain back to Bush and not as a maverick.

In the end she basically recited a bunch of talking points on whatever topic she wanted to address. I guess I didn't expect anything more (except a couple gaffes), so she pretty much met or slightly exceeded expectations in this debate.

Chris Matthews had a good analogy. Biden won the night, Palin simply beat the spread.

RACIST!!!!!!

Oh wait, I cracked a Jewish joke the post before.

.....*

Nevermind.
<kicks self> It was poor word choice on my part. I didn't mean it that way at all. I used it strictly as a figure of speech, and I profusely and humbly apologize to anyone offended.

A poll being reported on Fox:

http://www.myfoxcleveland.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=7567908&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1

The undecideds appear to have judged this a win for Biden.

Palin did much better than expected because she simply ignored questions she couldn't answer in favor of the ones she had talking points for. The few times she wandered off the plantation trying to respond to the actual thing she was asked will prove to be her weakest moments.
She did what she was supposed to. Keeping up in a debate doesnt take as much as some think(bush has proven that time and time again). I expected Palin to keep it even atleast by dodging questions and attacking her opponent always whether in truth or not.

Expectations for her were very low and she met them.

Can't almost anybody ignore the topic at hand, pose a question to themselves and then answer it with rehearsed talking points?

I thought Biden was the man. Respectful, knowledgable, insightful, versatile, tough and he showed his soft side. He had in-depth answers for any question on any topic.

Didn't like the format at all, there was very little interaction between the two of them, they could have been filmed in a studio by themselves (seperately) and we could have just watched the videos and it wouldn't have been too much different. The format couldn't have been any better for Palin.

It would have been nice to see Ifill insist that the rules that they both agreed to be adhered to, but she must have been gun shy.

In sum, Biden was Presidential and Palin was a good actress, IMO.

I thought Biden did a good job. He was emotional, he showed personality by laughing along at Palin's little jokes and what not. I definitely think Biden does more for that ticket, in a positive way, than I thought before the debate.

I just thought Palin did a bit better. Not in a way that it would sway voters, but in a way of keeping GOP members from wavering.

I don't know that I would consider either "Presidential", yeah they are both one-heart beat away from the chair and what not, but let's face it, their on the ticket to be VP.

Palin looked at the camera, looked at Biden and didn't gaffe. I was watching Countdown last night and even Olberman said she didn't do anything to "hurt herself".

Once this bailout passes, I think McCain will start to pick up the pace a little bit, his downfall came once Lehman brothers collapsed, it will help to just put that issue in the past.

I finally watched it, and Palin looked very well coached. She didn't answer anything she hadn't been coached on, but she was coached well enough to change the subject so much that it made her sound like she was answering the question. There was a question about home mortgages and somehow she ended up answering that question with information on the energy crisis, but to the average idiot she sounded okay doing it.


In sum, Biden was Presidential and Palin was a good actress, IMO.

That's a pretty good analogy. Biden seemed much more professional, Palin answered all her questions as the way she was coached.


I have to admit, I was disappointed. I was hoping to get some good drops on Palin's fuck ups. Oh well, it was better than my fiance watching Grey's anatomy.

She's single handedly making me hate both the state and the word "ALASKA".

Yea, I agree. She was awesome and he looked old and confused. She stayed on point and he was drifting a lil bit. Whomever did his facelift should be fired. She is soooo likeable. :)

Seriously, she handed the race back to JM. She definately didn't lose it last night. It's his to win or lose. And with him losing almost 3pts in the polls and BO gaining 3pts in the polls over the last week, it isn't looking good right now.

There's a lot I could say about this post, but I'll start here:


What, exactly, has been unfair for the middle-class? Obama wants to focus his campaign on "putting the middle-class first". But what the hell does that mean?

I shouldn't have to research that on my own, he should tell me.
Yes, you should.

In fact, everyone should research the candidates on their own. We live in a world in which sound bites and complex semantics are used to conceal real meaning, or to oversimplify concepts that are hard to present in a 30 second commercial or other act of political theater. It's really rare that a sound bite accurately captures the essence of things. It's increasingly rare that the conventional media does anything but appeal to audience share. Fortunately, we have more info at our fingertips than we've ever had.

One of the more insightful parts of the debate demonstrating this was the little exchange of the somber "drill drill drill" versus "drill baby drill!". From a sound bite perspective, one would think "we have 3% of the oil but consume 25% of the oil" makes sense to people who get that "big versus little" concept we learn as an infant. But it's pointless to the vast majority who get lost in a blizzard of numbers, who think numbers are a way to screw them. So, they descend to even more meaningless sound bites to convey policy through verbal imagery. Yee-fucking-haw!

Seriously, she handed the race back to JM. She definately didn't lose it last night. It's his to win or lose. And with him losing almost 3pts in the polls and BO gaining 3pts in the polls over the last week, it isn't looking good right now.
It was a personal victory for Palin and her debate preparation team. She lost by 2-3 touchdowns when everyone expected she'd lose by 5 touchdowns. But if the undecided polls out there are any indication, she may not have stopped the bleeding. Her efforts at going negative were not well-received. There's plenty of fodder for Tina Fey <wink>. Take away her cue cards and permit follow-ups to force her to answer the question that was asked, and it's not clear she could make it through a serious interview today.

I just thought Palin did a bit better. Not in a way that it would sway voters, but in a way of keeping GOP members from wavering..
IMO that won't win the presidency though. Until either her or McCain prove to independents and hillary backers that they are a better choice, it'll still be a loss.

Yea, I agree. She was awesome and he looked old and confused. She stayed on point and he was drifting a lil bit. Whomever did his facelift should be fired. She is soooo likeable. :)

Seriously, she handed the race back to JM. She definately didn't lose it last night. It's his to win or lose. And with him losing almost 3pts in the polls and BO gaining 3pts in the polls over the last week, it isn't looking good right now.

Wow, that is certainly a big spin. I didn't hear one republican analyst agree she stayed on point. They basically said she strayed a ton but that it was fine because the format was conducive to it.

You could see her looking down at her notes, almost trying to find a canned topic that she could steer the question into. She also got snotty a couple times too. Some will like it, some won't. I wonder how the independents liked them.

I found the focus group on CNN very interesting. It was a small sample (like 50 people), but the group of undecided voters from Ohio were telling. 7 people said last night made up their minds, and only one decided on McCain and Palin. When they asked that lady, her reasons sounded about as scattered as Palin's answers to Couric.

Obama caught a lot of flak from Hillary with the speeches, but no substance line of attack. Palin is just that. Biden was dead on near the end when he said she hasn't outlined one plan the entire night. She gave no specifics. I'm sure that was the plan, but I wonder how many voters that weren't already voting McCain bought her vague speeches.

Fallout...

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/10/palin-misstates.html

Sarah Palin got her facts wrong in Thursday's debate with Joe Biden when discussing where John McCain stands on new protections for homeowners facing foreclosures.

The Alaska governor incorrectly made it sound like McCain supports giving bankruptcy judges the power to rewrite mortgage payment terms on first homes.

He doesn't.

The McCain campaign confirms to ABC News that Palin misstated McCain's position.

MI0IXwiBbIY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI0IXwiBbIY

Did they issue a statement about her gay rights position last night?

Fallout...

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/10/palin-misstates.html


Everyone should read this.

Biden actually told her correctly what McCain's position was and she denied it a second time. She was so clueless she changed the topic entirely.

I found it interesting how Palin tried to say that Biden and Obama don't agree on certain issues, as thats bad in her winking eyes. Then she turns around and admits her and JM don't agree on everything, because well.....when you have two mavericks......wink.....wink.

I thought this was fishy when I heard the name McClellan (Afganastan commander). I instantly thought of the Civil War general myself, but didn't know she was wrong until after the debate.

I didn't think the name gaffe was a big deal, but she completely misrepresented his position as well:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brandon-friedman/mcclellan-mckiernan-you-k_b_131488.html

http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1986

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/01/AR2008100100789.html?hpid=sec-world

The longer this goes, the worse it is for McCain.

Initial respose of Palin's performance was she, as Matthews put it, "beat the spread". But, as the debate is dissected (McClennen/McKiernan), the gloss should be removed to reveal a woman who has absolutely no clue what's going on.

The consensus is "she seems to be a nice person". But, as the supoenas are issued in Alaska, we could see a completely different side of Palin.

Quick turnaround for the next debate (Tuesday).

New thread anyone?

Make a game thread for it.

Fuck Billy Mays. My mom just bought that Awesome Auger contraption, and it didn't even come with the cotter pins to put it together. When she called to complain, they said they'd send her some... for $10!!! I said FUCK Billy Mays for doing that to my mama!!!

YOU SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT BILLY MAYS. YOU SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT HIM.


There's still Jewish posters on WTF? I thought Taymelo was the last?

I'm culturally Jewish, but I don't observe the religion.


Still better than Jeopardy.

I don't know man. Jeopardy is still pretty strong entertainment, but Trebek needs to grow out his afro and mustache again and bring sexy back.

The longer this goes, the worse it is for McCain.

Initial respose of Palin's performance was she, as Matthews put it, "beat the spread". But, as the debate is dissected (McClennen/McKiernan), the gloss should be removed to reveal a woman who has absolutely no clue what's going on.


I don't know. I think most knowledgeable people already thought she was pretty clueless. I think the bar was lowered after the Couric interviews. I guess it depends on where you put the bar as an individual. I already thought she was scary green.

(CNN) -- Fortunes were wiped out this week. Washington seemed paralyzed. And Republican vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin should
In the wild swings of U.S. markets and politics, John McCain's running mate was almost overlooked. That's lucky because Palin has a problem.
The problem is that candidates have to speak; not just in prepared speeches and advertisements, but unscripted and on their own. And Palin hasn't been doing a good job of it. Truth is, she's hardly been doing it at all.
As you read this, Americans will have just seen her debate against Democratic vice presidential candidate Joe Biden (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/joseph_biden) -- her biggest unassisted outing yet.
Watch for the reaction. Before the debate, the McCain (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/john_mccain) campaign was very nervous about letting Palin speak her mind near anyone with a camera, microphone or a notebook.
By CNN's count, Biden has done nearly 100 interviews as Obama (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/barack_obama)'s running mate. Palin (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/sarah_palin) has done three. And they haven't gone well.
In one, she claimed foreign policy experience because she's the governor of Alaska and "you can actually see Russia" from one part of the state.
In another, she couldn't or wouldn't name a single magazine or newspaper that she reads.
Conservative columnist Kathleen Parker was a Palin supporter who gave up after seeing her on TV.
"I watch her interviews with the held breath of an anxious parent," she wrote this week, "my finger poised over the mute button in case it gets too painful. Unfortunately, it often does. My cringe reflex is exhausted."
Most Republicans still love Palin. They crowd her rallies and cheer wildly.
But independent voters could decide the election and they are turning against her.
A pair of Washington post-ABC News polls found that last month, 60 percent of independents had a favorable impression of her. That's down to 48 percent. Her "unfavorable'"ratings rose from 26 percent to 36 percent. And McCain has followed her down a bit in the polls too.
Some Republican strategists say it was a mistake to limit Palin's exposure to the press. She's had very few opportunities to learn how to take tough questions and every one of the encounters has been examined exhaustively because they're so rare.
But the explanation may be simpler. She's new. New, unconventional and defying expectations. Or new, inexperienced and unqualified. Americans are making up their minds.

My cringe reflex is exhausted.
So 8 years of Bush wasn't good enough to do just that?

The longer this goes, the worse it is for McCain.

Initial respose of Palin's performance was she, as Matthews put it, "beat the spread". But, as the debate is dissected (McClennen/McKiernan), the gloss should be removed to reveal a woman who has absolutely no clue what's going on.

The consensus is "she seems to be a nice person". But, as the supoenas are issued in Alaska, we could see a completely different side of Palin.


...your a Republican, right?

Dick Morris (D) bitchslaps Alan Colmes over the debate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJh-fOQf3hA

just two weeks after Rove took Alan to school

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-llDJ0iMPA


Idiot.

Wow. Alan "my whole job on FoxNews is to lose every argument" Colmes was beaten to pulp on FoxNews. Twice.

Shocking.

Fox News Liberals = Washington Generals

Dick Morris is as much of a Democrat as Pat Buchanan.

...your a Republican, right?
I think Denny is an independent who does tend to vote for conservatives. But he's the type of not so affiliated vote that i think McCain is losing imo.

Label, schmabel...

My opinion of the debate is that it was the ultimate shark jump in political satire. Sarah Palin has completely blurred the line between politics as usual and political satire. I have to believe that most people now see the connection between the media and politicians. Essentially, the media serves to amplify the talking points of the day with little to analysis or questioning. People are accustomed to the fact that politicians will lie through their teeth with little regard for the question being asked. As many have noted, palin's trouble with couric's interview was the follow-up questions. The lack of substance was illuminated by digging into the superficial answer in search of some basic foundation. Once the superficiality is debunked in the follow-up question, the superficiality of the original answer is magnified 1000x by its repitition.

On the debate, the media surely would've named palin a blowout winner if it ended after 15 minutes. However, 90 minutes of tangentially related talking points are self-revelatory. When Palin gives the same drill baby drill answer to 3 unrelated questions, it clarifies her lack of substance in the same fashion that couric's follow-up questions did. It is not at all ironic that the media did not pick up on this after the interview, because they seem utterly unaware of the role they play in our political farce. In fact, the media's disdain for the common individual is highlighted by the fact that they thought palin did a good job, not by answering questions or outlining policy proposals, buy by playing her part well. The media wouldn't care if Sarah Palin herself showed up or if the mccain campaign hired an actress to play Palin's role. Palin was never expected to explain her policy priorities or how she would make decisions as president. Rather the media judged Palin's ability to deliver mccain talking points in folksy manner. On this scorecard, she was a success. Ultimately, her success just underscored the hollowness of politics as a whole.

As for satire, it is not really necessary to alter palin's words at all. It is just necessary to demonstrate the meaninglessness of her answers to the questions posed and to her potential role as president in general. However, the satire itself is only superficially funny. once we realize that the joke has been on us all along, it calls into question our acquiessence in the process. In fact, I doubt there would be any questioning if palin had been nominated in 2000.

Satire in charge:
cxJnf5tkfoo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxJnf5tkfoo

I have to believe that most people now see the connection between the media and politicians.
Looks like voters for the Democrats are catching up. The Repub voters realized the media bias ages ago.

Team McCain ran a web ad with "Famous Person" praising her on the Washington Post site:

http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr50/canuckster_or/ad.jpg
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/10/03/palin_web_ad_cites_thumbs_up_f.html

Satire in charge:
cxJnf5tkfoo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxJnf5tkfoo

'If you stare at the abyss long enough, the abyss stares back into you.'

Team McCain ran a web ad with "Famous Person" praising her on the Washington Post site:

http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr50/canuckster_or/ad.jpg
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/10/03/palin_web_ad_cites_thumbs_up_f.html



I'm sure I'm not the only male in America who, when Palin dropped her first wink, sat up a little straighter on the couch and said, "Hey, I think she just winked at me." And her smile. By the end, when she clearly knew she was doing well, it was so sparkling it was almost mesmerizing. It sent little starbursts through the screen and ricocheting around the living rooms of America. This is a quality that can't be learned; it's either something you have or you don't, and man, she's got it.



It's not even the partisanship that drives me insane, it is the hollowness of partisanship on both sides. The best thing that could happen to the media would be issues-based hyperpartisanship on both sides with politicians accountable to answering real questions from both sides. A media devoid of serious questions is far worse than one that would demand answers to hyper-partisan, but intelectually honest questions. gwen ifill was a horrendous moderator because her questions were ill-defined and poorly worded. However, her greatest sin was the lack of accountability in answering any of the questions in the first place.

Biden's 14 Lies from last night...

http://minx.cc/?post=274757


JOE BIDEN’S 14 LIES LAST NIGHT


1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.


2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.


3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.”


4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.


5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.


6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.


7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people's health insurance coverage -- they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false


8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska -- she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it's not a windfall profits tax.


9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO's International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.


10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation -- he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.


11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.


12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.


13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.”


14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won't pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan

Just like Al Quadea forced your helicopter down, right Joe?

Biden's 14 Lies from last night...
Some of this stuff is real. Most of it is a joke. The talking points from Team McCain are amusing, but just saying someone is wrong doesn't cut it. Some of these talking points are so nebulous or trivial as to be meaningless, and some are just full of shit. I'd cite chapter and verse if you cared, but the one that amuses me the most because I JUST happened to read about it is the windfall profits tax on oil in Alaska:


8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska -- she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it's not a windfall profits tax.
Ok, so what do you call a NEW tax on profits that progressively increases as the price of a barrel of gas increases?

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/02/news/economy/palin_oil/?postversion=2008100316


In late 2007 Palin succeeded in raising the tax on oil companies from 22.5 to 25% of net profits. Alaska also added a clause increasing the tax for each dollar oil goes above $52 a barrel - essentially, a windfall profits tax.
If you wanted to really do research, you'd see this characterized as windfall taxation by the legislators who wrote the replacement to Alaska's Petroleum Profit Tax at Palin's behest. You might even find Palin herself referring to her ACES tax as a windfall tax in casual conversations. But there's not much of a point in spoonfeeding you when don't have any interest in finding things out on your own. You dont ask even the simple questions like "why didn't the governor of Alaska defend Biden's characterization of Alaska's tax plan". She had plenty of time to do so, especially since she wasn't answering so many of the questions posed to her. And unlike federal domestic and foreign policy issues, it was up her alley and it even involved energy.

Think man, think!

Wow, that is certainly a big spin. I didn't hear one republican analyst agree she stayed on point. They basically said she strayed a ton but that it was fine because the format was conducive to it.

You could see her looking down at her notes, almost trying to find a canned topic that she could steer the question into. She also got snotty a couple times too. Some will like it, some won't. I wonder how the independents liked them.

I found the focus group on CNN very interesting. It was a small sample (like 50 people), but the group of undecided voters from Ohio were telling. 7 people said last night made up their minds, and only one decided on McCain and Palin. When they asked that lady, her reasons sounded about as scattered as Palin's answers to Couric.

Obama caught a lot of flak from Hillary with the speeches, but no substance line of attack. Palin is just that. Biden was dead on near the end when he said she hasn't outlined one plan the entire night. She gave no specifics. I'm sure that was the plan, but I wonder how many voters that weren't already voting McCain bought her vague speeches.

The first paragraph was all a joke Chris. My bad.

Biden's 14 Lies from last night...

4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.



How much of a wingnut do you have to be to buy this shit? Most of the supposed lies aren't even pertinent to what was said. Talking abstractly about regulating two govt. affiliated entities does not negate calling for deregulation incessantly for 26 years.

the $42,000 bill was generally about ending the bush tax cuts. obama wanted to increase taxes on the wealthy and could have easily introduced followed up with a second bill specific to the middle class if the bush tax cuts were rescinded. one could make the argument that mccain voted against the original tax cut that obama later wanted to rescind. that is a bit convoluted, but doesn't match palin's lie about the same topic. she said obama wanted to tax families making $42,000, when only individuals making $42,000 would be included. For a married couple, it would require an income of $84,000 and for a married couple with children it would be $90,000+. The whole question is nonsense since it doesn't reflect the tax structure obama wants as pres. anyway.

Of all of them, no. 2 is the closest to being correct, but doesn't seem to match his current proposal. john 'drill baby drill' mccain should understand that people change their opinions from time to time.

Label, schmabel...
I agree, but people in this country and in the world no less are more comfortable with a label. Because w/o labeling you, its like they dont know anything about you, and admitting something like that scares the shit out of most americans and breaks their comfort zone. Which is why Anybody who sees a problem with the candidates the Conservatives have baked the past decade will be labeled a dem or liberal as byproduct of two party system brainwashing and vice versa for thos who arent a fan of the dems candidates.

I'm switching to the Whig Party...

Sounds like a metrosexual group.

4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field.
Team McCain is provably wrong:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200810030010?f=h_top

Team McCain is provably wrong:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200810030010?f=h_top

They seem to admit that this is not a lie in no. 4. THey just pretend like it makes a difference whether or not the pres. would veto it.

Palin provably wrong on the Sudan:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5948944&page=1

I saw a fact check thing on CNN and there were lies on both sides. They concluded its pretty much the same in all debates. Tell what sounds good, cuz most peeps won't bother to go check the statements out for themselves.

Biden lied some and Palin lied some.

I saw a fact check thing on CNN
Oh shit!!! Was FoxNews Unbiased Fact checking department down???!!!

Typical liberal, attack the messenger cuz you can't attack the message.

I saw a fact check thing on CNN and there were lies on both sides. They concluded its pretty much the same in all debates. Tell what sounds good, cuz most peeps won't bother to go check the statements out for themselves.

Biden lied some and Palin lied some.

Considering Palin only answered %5 of the questions her percent of lies told is much higher.

Nfd4r6l4Fc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Nfd4r6l4Fc

Palin interview right after the debate:
b85YO-pkGMg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b85YO-pkGMg

Considering Palin only answered %5 of the questions her percent of lies told is much higher.

I guess if you consdier not answering a question a lie it would be higher.

Again, wow, a politician not answering a question. I'm shocked.

What I'm saying is that if they both told the same number of lies (lets say 5), but Biden answered all the questions (let's say 20) and Palin only answered 4 of them (the rest of the time giving the same answer or something totally off topic)...then the % of lies she told is much higher because she gave much fewer actual answers.

It's not shocking for a politician to lie. It is shocking to have so many lies told by McCain and Palin in debates, when you are supposed to be out there front and center showing yourself to the country. I guess you would be fine with that considering we've been lied to for 8 years on a daily basis.

What I'm saying is that if they both told the same number of lies (lets say 5), but Biden answered all the questions (let's say 20) and Palin only answered 4 of them (the rest of the time giving the same answer or something totally off topic)...then the % of lies she told is much higher because she gave much fewer actual answers.

It's not shocking for a politician to lie. It is shocking to have so many lies told by McCain and Palin in debates and BO and Biden, when you are supposed to be out there front and center showing yourself to the country. I guess you would be fine with that considering we've been lied to for 8 years on a daily basis.

Fixed that for ya.

And lol at that rationale btw.

Typical liberal, attack the messenger cuz you can't attack the message.
Typical idiot move to make up a response that doesn't have shit to do with what i said. :) Or how about following your own advice since you are derailing that direction. You've attacked the messenger how many times when someone brings up facts from another news channel?

LOL is attacking someone? :) Cuz when someone posts something from MSNBC (LOL) , I consder that a point and laugh moment.

LOL

LOL

LOL is attacking someone? :) Cuz when someone posts something from MSNBC (LOL) , I consder that a point and laugh moment.
You have a fuzzy beer memory because you've gone farther than LOL. And yes thats attacking the messenger rather than the message because you're overlooking the validity of the message because where is came from. Eat your own advice before you get to throwing it out in irrelevant scenarios.