Wednesday, September 17, 2008
Chris McCosky: NBA
Four Pistons seek one spot (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080917/OPINION03/809170375/1127/SPORTS0102)
Curry wants best balance as Johnson, Maxiell, Brown look to unseat McDyess as starter.

AUBURN HILLS -- The Pistons open training camp in 13 days, and for the first time in several years, the camp will feature an honest-to-goodness battle for one of the five starting positions.

First-year coach Michael Curry will give Amir Johnson, Jason Maxiell and Kwame Brown a legitimate and fair shot at unseating veteran Antonio McDyess as the starting power forward-center opposite Rasheed Wallace.

"We are looking at how we can inject our young guys into the rotation more, giving them a solid role and still get the most out of our veteran guys and be as efficient as possible," Curry said. "One of the things we are looking at is having 'Dyess go back to his role of coming off the bench."

To be clear, Curry is in no way suggesting McDyess doesn't deserve to maintain his starting spot. Quite the opposite.

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"Whoever wins that starting spot won't necessarily be the best player," Curry said. "I think it's hands-down that McDyess is our second-best post player behind Rasheed. But who we end up starting will be the player who gives us the best balance."

Curry pointed out that as a starter last season, McDyess averaged eight more minutes per game than he had as the sixth man the previous season, but took nearly six fewer shots per the minutes he played. That was not good use of the team's second-best post scorer.

"Rasheed and 'Dyess are our two scoring post players," Curry said. "The other guys are more complementary. If 'Dyess is coming off the bench, then whoever else is coming off the bench with him will no longer be asked to play outside their roles."

Curry would love to be able to bring McDyess and Rodney Stuckey off the bench together, forming a second pick-and-roll combination as effective as the starting duo of Chauncey Billups and Wallace.

"We have to find minutes for Stuckey, as if he were our sixth starter," Curry said. "We want to have someone with him (like McDyess) to have a pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop combination that can carry that group. A lot of times last year, 'Dyess would pick up two early fouls and then 'Sheed would need his break and we were limited in what we could do."

In no way, though, is Curry going to give McDyess' starting spot away. One of those other three players will have to win it from him. To their credit, all three have been at the practice facility working out since the beginning of August.

"We are going to find out what's best and be open to finding the best way to be efficient and productive with the guys coming off the bench," Curry said. "We will give all these guys a chance."

I'd say that the best natural rebounder of the bunch is Amir. We need rebounding at that position more than anything.

My guess is Kwame.

Joe will want to give him every opportunity to make Joe look good.

Amir might start, but he'd be on the bench with two fouls in no more than 4 minutes. Thus Brown will get starters time.

My guess is Kwame.

Joe will want to give him every opportunity to make Joe look good.

You mean the new coach, right? Or are you being funny calling the new coach Joe? Oh, I get it. Lil slow today.

I hope it's not Maxiell...he'll get exposed.

I think they know that Max is likely a career reserve.

I hope.

Looks like it won't be Dice.


:langlois:

Among the other subjects he (Curry) touched on, he confirmed what we’ve been suggesting for the past month – that Antonio McDyess will go back to the bench to give more scoring punch to the second unit and better utilize McDyess’ talents.

“With Dice starting last year, he averaged the same number of shots in eight more minutes a game as the did the two years before that,” he said. “We think he can be more efficient when he’s not out there with the starting unit. We have so many guys who are capable scorers and who want to score the basketball. What we have on our second unit – and I know you don’t always play first and second unit at the same time – we have Rodney Stuckey, who, like Dice, could very well be a starter, and when you have both of those guys anchoring your second unit, you allow your role players to play their roles and not play outside of themselves.

“You’re not asking Amir Johnson to become a primary scorer or Jason Maxiell or Kwame Brown. Same with Arron Afflalo. Those four guys are key and their success is about having the right combinations and having a really good post scorer and a really good perimeter scorer out there with them. That will help with their development.”

Curry said he’s talked frequently with Rasheed Wallace over the summer – Wallace is the one Piston veteran who spends the majority of his summer here – to stress conditioning and efficient play, particularly post play. And he’s pleased with the way the message has been received.

“The thing we talked about early is I wanted him to be in better shape once training camp started and wanted him to maintain his conditioning throughout the season.” Curry said he believes that strength coach Arnie Kander is the best in the business, but the team hasn’t always taken full advantage of Kander’s keen instincts for maximizing workout techniques and conditioning levels.

“I know a lot of people talk about Rasheed getting down in the post,” Curry said, “and I talked to him a lot last year about it. We will call more plays for Rasheed – and not only Rasheed – to get down in the post. Getting points in the paint is going to be one of our main focuses, but it takes a lot of conditioning, especially as you get older, to get down in the post.”

Curry talked about reducing Wallace’s minutes as well as McDyess’, which opens the door for the likelihood that all three of the other big guys – Kwame Brown, Amir Johnson and Jason Maxiell – will factor into the rotation.

the move makes sense and the point about his production being the same even with increased minutes is a valid one. and i think dice and stuckey together off the bench would be dynamite.

if what curry is saying is true, i'm very excited to watch our bigs this year. i think we COULD legitimately distribute the minutes amongst 5 guys. there are 96 of them and you figure sheed plays 30-32, dice plays 25-28 perhaps, and then the other 3 guys could average about 12-15 minutes each. some nights more, some nights less depending on the matchups.

i'm fine with that and i actually would hope we'd cut a few more minutes out of sheed and dice's playing time. if we substitute them regularly and do sort of a tag team effort out there, then we should be able to get the versatility, athleticism, energy, and experience as we need it. this should increase our productivity......at least in theory.

Amir starting could be a disaster though. You know how many times he's going to get 2 fouls before the 10 minute mark?

The safest bet would probably be Kwame Brown. At least he's a bit more polished than Amir, and for all the hate Kwame gets (most of which is warrented), he's actually a modest defender inside.

His FT shooting will drive me ape-shit though...

Amir starting could be a disaster though. You know how many times he's going to get 2 fouls before the 10 minute mark?




Well, then bring in Dyess for 30 minutes.

Amir might start, but he'd be on the bench with two fouls in no more than 4 minutes. Thus Brown will get starters time.


Amir starting could be a disaster though. You know how many times he's going to get 2 fouls before the 10 minute mark?

The safest bet would probably be Kwame Brown. At least he's a bit more polished than Amir, and for all the hate Kwame gets (most of which is warrented), he's actually a modest defender inside.

His FT shooting will drive me ape-shit though...

Wil sometimes I couldn't even script these things any better...

why would him getting 2 fouls in 10 minutes be a disaster though? that happens to dice a lot......and that's why we have 3 other big men to come off the bench. no problem there.

i mean, yeah i want him to cut down on his fouls some. but that will come and we have 3 other guys ready to check in for him when/if it happens.

Who's gonna win the opening tap?

It's not Sheed, that's for damn sure.

Amir seems like he has the best hops+height for it.

I'd love to get back to winning the opening tap.

Having Dyess come off the bench is great because it keeps another threat out there so that Stuckey isn't ever stranded as the only legit threat, therefore being double or triple teamed.

why would him getting 2 fouls in 10 minutes be a disaster though? that happens to dice a lot...


Good point.

Just trying to think outside of the box on this (so step off) but I wonder how Samb would do as a starter?

If you accept that he's not going to give you much offensively and that he'll likely pick up two quick fouls, his presence in the middle would set an interesting tone for the rest of the game, potentially.

A Samb/Sheed front line at the start of games would be pretty intimidating defensively, IMO.

I lost count of the number of times I suggested moving Dyess back to the bench last year. I'm glad to finally have a coach that understands players have specific roles that need to be utilized instead of just throwing them out there.

BTW, my guess is Amir or Max outplay Kwame in the preseason and one earns the role. I suspect Kwame will get the nod some nights based on matchups though (against a center with more size).

BTW, my guess is Amir or Max outplay Kwame in the preseason and one earns the role. I suspect Kwame will get the nod some nights based on matchups though (against a center with more size).

I thought sure you were going to say I bet AJ or Max outplays Kwame in the preseason, but doesn't get the starting role.

I really think they want to put Kwame in a position to succeed and starting might be the place for that. Or to just get him going at the begining of the season or something.

I think they'll give Kwame a chance at it, but I think Amir plays too well for Kwame to take over that role. If Kwame starts and plays 15-20 minutes, Amir doesn't see the floor at all. Sheed will get 30+, Dyess 25 and Max 25+. That leaves no minutes for Amir. So either you trade somebody or one guy will be sitting most nights.

I lost count of the number of times I suggested moving Dyess back to the bench last year. I'm glad to finally have a coach that understands players have specific roles that need to be utilized instead of just throwing them out there.
Who was going to rebound?

Max has improved, but he's no McDyess when it comes to rebounding. Max is now at roughly the same level of rebounding that Kwame is, which is one big reason I don't like Kwame. The other starting four range from "ehh" to "putrid" when it comes to cleaning the glass, so we need someone who can do that.

Don't miss.

Well, Amir better learn how to box out then.

actually i don't think j-max will see 25+ mins chris. i think 15-20 is more likely and he's most effective in that role anyway. curry seems to think so too FWIW.

I agree with Highwarrior, I don't think he gets 25+ minutes. 15-20 is going to be his role, maybe 20-25. He's a role player, nothing more. A high energy guy off the bench that can really get the team going, but not much more than that at this point, though there is still room to develop.

How about...








Valter at the 4?

Valter at the 4?
Vhich Valter?

the vhite one

de vhite vun
fksd

Vhichvever Valter vants to play more.

Vell played, gents.

I think they'll give Kwame a chance at it, but I think Amir plays too well for Kwame to take over that role. If Kwame starts and plays 15-20 minutes, Amir doesn't see the floor at all. Sheed will get 30+, Dyess 25 and Max 25+. That leaves no minutes for Amir. So either you trade somebody or one guy will be sitting most nights.
Unless Maxiell managed to improve his endurance during the offseason, I wouldn't be surprised to see 6-10 minutes come off that figure.

As to the original poll question, I answered Kwame by elimination. Amir is too green, McDyess is more valuable as a 1st/2nd option in the 2nd unit than 4th/5th with the starters and Maxiell can't eat babies during the game so he loses his mojo too fast.

Maxiell can't eat babies during the game so he loses his mojo too fast.
Ahhh, the X factor.

As has been mentioned, looks like it's Amir.

Although I find the timing of this proclamation a bit odd with the"competition" just starting, I'm cool with this and actually suggested that start vs. Boston in the playoffs last year.

Let him play balls out and cause havok, while earning his fouls, and then plug Dice and Max in behind him.

They did say he's the starter FOR NOW, which could just mean for the preseason, like its his job to lose.

They did say it was his job to lose, IIRC.

Why not announce that later, though?

Announcing it now does nothing, really, but provide him with an opportunity to publicly fail, IMO.

If he loses the gig now that it is announced, how is his morale going to be?

Gotta worry about that emo shit with these young kids.

Wouldn't we know it was his job when he ... you know ... started?

I just assumed it was an announcement for the preseason. I didn't think it was for regular season purposes. Someone in the media asked him who would be starting so he answered them, no need to keep it secret until gametime.

I guess what I am saying is that it would be much cooler (and would probably mean more to Amir) if they had waited to announce that he actually won the starting role based on what he did in the preseason.

It seems like an anoitment, now.

I like it this way. He now knows that he will get the PT to show he's ready. Maybe he won't go out and foul like crazy trying to block everything knowing he will get a chance. It also shows confidence by the coaching staff in him.

If you simply say the position is completely wide open competition then he'll probably over hustle and get in foul trouble like he has in the past.

I suppose that's a fair assessment.

I can't help but think that Maxiell might have a bit of a problem having this handed to Amir, though.

Even going back to Darko, I've always had a problem with handing out playing time/roles without earning them, so I guess that I'm not surprised that I'm in the minority on this one, too.

Well, but this is the preseason. It hasn't been given on a permanent basis.

Well fuck me, I missed that minor detail.

That's what I was trying to point out. They just announced he was the starter for the first preseason game AFAICT.

They just announced he was the starter for the first preseason game AFAICT.


Sounds like more than that to me.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081004/SPORTS0102/810040426/1004

from your link:


Calling him a "welcome addition," coach Michael Curry made official Saturday what he's long been hinting at -- Amir Johnson, as of now, is the Pistons' starting power forward. "Amir does things without having to have the ball," Curry said. "He's able to pick up baskets through his activity, by running the floor and playing off the other four guys. He does all the intangible things, and through that he's able to create offensive opportunities for himself."
How long Johnson holds onto the spot is completely up to him.


I guess you can interpret that however you want. Especially since those are McClueless words (in bold) and not Curry's.

Hmm, maybe I'm way off then. I don't remember if I read it somewhere or just assumed it. I'm surprised if he's naming him the starter for the regular season unless he loses the spot, that just seems like it kills all aspects of competition, unless he's made it clear in the locker room that it can still change at any point and it has to be earned.

no it's simple. amir's game fits best in the role, over j-max's, dice's, and brown's. (nobody seriously thought brown would win the spot, did they?)'

amir brings energy and athleticism and can be the one who feeds off all our starter's. he has always played best when he plays with sheed. it makes perfect sense and they compliment each other well.

dice is the 7th man (after stuckey) and plays his typical role of scorer off the bench this year. j-max is the energy guy who can beat up on backups in short spurts.

brown is the guy to play against the big centers, like dwight howard, for example. he can be the physical guy to bang, defend, and rebound on odd nights. his role is the most likely to vary from game to game IMO.

so it only makes sense that amir is the starter. nobody else fits the role as well as him IMO. AND he gives us the added dimension of high flying athleticism and hustle while not requiring any plays being drawn up for him. when he's in with mostly backups he is often forgotten about.

but in with the starters they can get him the ball in areas he can be more successful IMO- alley oops, pushing the ball up the floor, drive and dishes, etc.

JMO

I think it's much simpler than that.

Amir fouls ... A LOT. Gotta get him in early or else you are already in the penalty before he enters the game.

I think it's much simpler than that.

Amir fouls ... A LOT. Gotta get him in early or else you are already in the penalty before he enters the game.

Agreed, but on the same token, he can almost single handedly put you in the penalty early and behind the 8-ball.

I still like the idea of him starting, though.

You've got 4 other offensive weapons, might as well add another one to the bench (Dice) and see if Amir is worth what he is being paid.

If nothing else, he'll be showcased for a trade.

(nobody seriously thought brown would win the spot, did they?)'



See the poll results.

wow. that's shocking to me. it would be almost like having mohammed in there all over again. just a bad fit all the way around.

save him for matchups with other big men and use him sparingly. if you listen to joe and curry, that is what the plan has really been for him all along. there was no way he was going to be a starter. sure they said it was a competition, but when you read between the lines you can see he doesn't fit as that 5th guy.

JMO

Who can rebound? Who can win the opening tap?

Amir's got some ups, I bet he can win the opening tap.

I'd wager he can win as many of them as Ben Wallace did. The tip off is purely a matter of height, leaping ability and timing... as a natural shot blocker that's his bread and butter.

I still don't understand the big deal about winning the tip. Who cares?

I can see being concerned about winning other tips throughout the game (loose ball tie ups, etc), but the opening tip doesn't do anything for me at all.

Yeah, the tip hasn't mattered since 1975 when they switched to the quarter possession rule.

I still don't understand the big deal about winning the tip. Who cares?

I can see being concerned about winning other tips throughout the game (loose ball tie ups, etc), but the opening tip doesn't do anything for me at all.
I think it results in an extra half-possession or so for the team who starts off with possession at the quarter. This matters more in close games in the 4th quarter. But mostly, I'm just sick and tired of seeing Sheed jump like he doesn't give a fuck. I like starting out with a quick couple points, and the path to do that is to win the tap.

I think it results in an extra half-possession or so for the team who starts off with possession at the quarter. This matters more in close games in the 4th quarter. But mostly, I'm just sick and tired of seeing Sheed jump like he doesn't give a fuck. I like starting out with a quick couple points, and the path to do that is to win the tap.


Lost me there. I'm a bit slow, can you explain this part a bit more?


Please note that I am not arguing with Mxy, which = certain doom.

He's saying "on average". It doesn't guarantee the team that won the tip will get an extra posession but the numbers work out that on average the tip winning team get's an extra possession every other game from winning the tip.

I'm just explaining what he is saying though, I've never seen a numbers breakdown of it. But I'd suspect 82games has done something on it.

Thanks for the effort, but I'm still not seeing where these "extra possessions" are coming from.

The team that wins the tip gets the ball in the 1st and 4th qtr and the team that loses the tip gets it the 2nd and 3rd, right?

I can see how winning the tip in overtime is an advantage, but in regulation, how is that not 2 possessions per side?

Thanks for your patience with me here.

There's a certain number of statistically calculated average possessions per team in a game, if I understand what Mxy/Fool are getting at, and that number is higher for the team that wins the tip.

Could be completely wrong but that's how I'm understanding it.

I think that it is a coincidence. The act of winning the tip does not reflect on any other jump balls. If that same player (who is good at winning tips) is involved in other jump balls then that would impact the stats. Otherwise the extra possessions are determined by the rest of the team being able to win a jump ball.

i don't think it makes one bit of difference who starts the 4th quarter with the ball. there are way too many posessions for that to make any kind of difference IMO. if you think one posession makes a difference, at the start of the 4th with 12 minutes and about 35 posessions left.....well then i won't argue anymore. we just won't see eye to eye.

nothing can happen in one posession at the start of the 4th that is in any way insurmountable or highly advantageous to the team that got the ball. like i said, too many posessions and too much time for that to make any difference.

Who wins the tip gets slightly more possessions that quarter, on average. If it's a tight game going into the 4th quarter, I'd want my team to have that little bitty edge. Again, that's trivial. Mostly it's Sheed jumping it up like he doesn't give a shit that bugs me. Win the opening tap, swing it to Rip for the easy bucket, start the game out right. :)

But doesn't the other team get slightly more possessions the 2nd and 4th quarters with that logic?

2nd and 3rd quarters, and yeah. It evens out. Again, it's minor. I am trying to remember exactly where I read about the impact of first possession per quarter on # of possessions per quarter -- something linked off of 82games.com, I think.

So is Curry going ride this out with Amir or will Langlois just slip into his blog that Dice is going to start?

I can see it now, "we really need Amir's energy off the bench" or something like that.

http://www.nba.com/pistons/news/ATLDET_081023_recap.html?rss=true

Amir Johnson has picked up nuggets of experience while playing sparsely in his first three NBA seasons. But there are some experiences - like playing extended minutes on consecutive nights - that you don’t realize how hard they are until you’re asked to do them.

The Pistons’ new starting forward was expected to log big minutes in the preseason finale Thursday night against the Atlanta Hawks, but picked up three fouls six minutes into the game. He managed only 15 minutes before fouling out with four points and seven rebounds - hardly the performance head coach Mike Curry anticipated the day after saying Johnson had a great training camp.

“I didn’t think he was focused tonight,” said Curry, who praised Johnson after eight points, six rebounds and four blocks in Wednesday’s win over Cleveland. “I think when we said we were going to let the starters off he thought he was a starter also. This was definitely his poorest performance, practice or game wise, in the preseason, and we told him at half he doesn’t have the luxury to have days like that.”

The Hammer threw down "the hammer" on AJ.