Time to get started on this.

I have two things nagging at me.

1. What will they do with Sheff?

2. What will happen with Leyland?

As far as Sheff goes, if they don't want to bring him back they'd pretty much have to eat his contract for next year ($14m) or pay somebody roughly $10m to take him for nothing. Hard to see what they will do here.

Here's his contract terms, just as an FYI:

Contract:
3-Year worth 39M- + the deal includes 2007 option worth 13M- + he will make 13M each year in 2004, 2005 and 2006- + 13M of the deal is deferred w/ out interest until 2008 thru 2016: 4.5M each year of the deal is deferred- + if exercised, 4.5M of the option would also be deferred- + it's believed that at a later date, the Yankees agreed to include interest on all the deferrals, but this is unconfirmed- + he did not receive a bonus for a 2005 All-Star selection- + 2007 option worth $13M was EXERCISED by NYY on 11/5/06- + as part of trade from NYY to DET on 11/10/06, he signed a 2-year contract extension worth $28M thru 2009 season- + as part of extension, 2007 salary remains $13M though $4.5M of it is deferred at 3% compounded interest- + he receives salaries of $14M each year in 2008 and 2009- + $4M each year of 2008 and 2009 salaries are deferred at 3% compounded interest- + the deferrals are scheduled to be paid out in installments of $1M to $2.5M annually between 2010 and 2019- + the deal includes a limited NO-TRADE clause that allows him to list 10 teams to which he cannot be traded to w/out his consent prior to the season- + he receives a hotel suite while on the road
Agent: Himself (contract), Rufus Williams (PR) and Mead Chasky (marketing) and Scott Boras (former agent)

As far as Leyland goes, I wouldn't be surprised if he's so frustrated at the end of the year that he just walks into retirement, which begs the question, "Who's next?"

Can't really bring in a young, unproven guy for this team, IMO, and the rotation is going to be in shambles.

Thoughts?

I could definitely see Leyland walking after this year, unless there's a major pitching upgrade. This team seems to be wearing him down. I think if we took on the majority of Sheff's contract we could get a decent prospect out of him. Not a stud by any means, but someone who's at least got a chance of making it in the majors down the line somewhere.

I wish I could undo the Jair/Renterria deal right now.

I was thinking about a thread to examine Dombrowski's recent penchant for bad moves, but I'll leave that to someone else.

I'm more concerned about 2009 at this point.

Anybody have a good link that lists Tiger salaries, specifically onces that are coming off the books?

I'd really like a full roster-like one similar to what Hoopshype uses.

Also, regarding Leyland;


Jim Leyland, Manager--Oct. 2005 to present signed 3-year deal thru 2008 season on 10/4/05- + he receives salaries of about $2M each year- + later signed 1-year contract EXTENSION thru 2009 season worth $4M on 10/2/07

So he might stick it out one more year and he might not.

I also saw that Chuck Hernandez' contract only runs through 2008, which is good because I don't think he's the guy to rebuild a pitching staff.

There are only 3 moves that I can think of that would be in that thread. The one Chris mentioned, picking up Willis, and I already forgot what the third one was while I was typing. I was going to add Jacque Jones as #4 but we just cut him as soon as he didn't produce so it wasn't really that terrible.

Zek, there are more than 3, BUT I'M NOT DISCUSSING IT HERE.

Anybody want to project the 2009 rotation?

It's not pretty. At all.

Verlander, Bonderman, Robertson, Galarraga, Willis?, Porcello?

I think I just vomited in my mouth

Maybe they'll finally give up on Robertson as a starter and move him to the pen.

I don't know if any of our current releivers could start, maybe Lopez?

Ugh.

I wouldn't put Porcello on that group. He'll spend next year at AA or AAA.

Maybe they'll finally give up on Robertson as a starter and move him to the pen.

I don't know if any of our current releivers could start, maybe Lopez?
:howdidwegetminer:

What happened to Bazardo? Anybody know how far Brandon Hamilton is from the bigs?

I haven't heard Bazardo's name in quite some time. He dropped off the Tigers radar it seems.

Ouch.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/external/brandedstats/t512.html?cid=512&t=t_ibp

Ouch re: Bazardo, yes. And Vasquez. But Lambert is encouraging. He strikes people out and doesn't give up home runs. That's what I'm talking about. Not bad for the PTBNL in the Maroth deal.

By the way - here's my projected pitching staff:

I'll start by saying we aren't likely to score one of the better free agents (Sabathia, Sheets, Lackey, Clement, Burnett) or probably even 2nd tier guys (Wolf, Perez, Lowe, Penny, Garland).

1 - Verlander
2 - Galarraga
3 - Bonderman
4 - Robertson
5 - Lambert/Bonine/Miner/Willis

I wish Robertson was done, I have for a couple years, but I doubt that happens given his extension. Willis will be given every shot to win a spot in the rotation, also because of the extension (wouldn't it have been nice to see him pitch here first?). I put Lambert in the 5th spot because I think he can win the spot in spring training. I agree with any sentiment that Porcello should not be rushed into it. He'll be a September 2009 call-up, and I'm fine with that - but any sooner may be a very bad idea.

I agree we won't persue a high profile SP. Not with the money we put into Willis. I could see us going after a closer though. Not that there is a lot out there:

Joe Borowski (38) - no thanks, no better than Jones
Brian Fuentes (33) - Colorado gets compensation for him, I think he'll stay
Eric Gagne (33) - anything left?
Trevor Hoffman (41) - can't see him leaving at this stage
Jason Isringhausen (36) - anything left?
Todd Jones (41) - we know this story
Brandon Lyon (29) - don't see why they'd let him go
Francisco Rodriguez (27) - don't see why they'd let him go
Salomon Torres (37) - they probably keep him over Gagne
Kerry Wood (32) - good year, but the Cubs will keep him I think

We better hope Joel can get it together. There are some middle relief options, but the closer market is washed up (besides a couple pitchers I see staying)

Chances Farnsworth takes over the closer role this year (because we all know how much Leyland likes a pitcher that actually throws strikes), then resigns and its an open competition in spring training between him, Rodney, and Zumaya? I wouldn't bet on it, but its a possibility. Maybe even Dolsi can get in on it, I've heard rumblings of him being a potential closer.

Heres what I want for '09

- let Jones (7 mill), Rogers (8 mill), Renteria (9 mill when you include the 3 mill buyout), Jacque Jones (5 mill), Farnsworth (5.5 mill) Vance (1 mill) all come off the books and don't resign them

- we'll have to lock up Verlander to a long-term deal because he'll probably void his final year and be eligible for arbitration, could cost us 5 yrs/56 mill or so

- Zumaya is arb-elig, might as well sign him long term before he becomes the closer and his market value goes way up (4 yrs/16 mill?)

- swing a trade for Jack Wilson, he won't cost us much since the Pirates have already traded Bay & Nady...

- sign two relievers (Joe Beimel, Damaso Marte, Brandon Lyon)

- sign two starting pitchers, one of which a lock to be in the rotation (AJ Burnett, Derek Lowe to name a couple possibilites, CC & Sheets will cost too much)

- we don't need a backup catcher, we'll likely use Dusty Ryan or James Skelton since both are eligible for the Rule 5 draft, odds are in their favor they will be moved to the 40 man roster in the offseason

- if you can't sign a reliever, try and trade for one (Scott Downs, Luis Ayala, Brian Tallet, John Grabow, Jason Frasor, all of those guys would be significant upgrades to what we got)

- also we've had quite a few 'breakout' prospects this year in the minors who are eligible for the Rule 5 draft, so the Tigs could have to waste a spot on the 40 man roster just to protect them (Alfredo Figaro, Luis Marte, Skelton & Ryan, Josh Rainwater, Lucas French are all possible to be added)


(Somewhat) New Lineup

CF- Granderson
2B- Polanco
1B- Cabrera- move him to 3rd, Guillen isn't driving in runs
RF- Ordonez
3B- Guillen
LF- Joyce
DH- Sheffield
SS- Wilson
C- Inge

Bench- Thames, Santiago, D. Ryan, Raburn

*as bad as I want to dump Sheff, it's probably not gonna happen, and if it does, we'll be paying more than half of that 14 mill salary


Rotation

Verlander
Bonderman
Lowe- Dearborn Native, Has pitched in the AL (3 yrs, 36 mill??)
Galarraga
Robertson/Willis (one can assume Fossum's current role)

Bullpen

Aquilino Lopez
Robertson/Willis
Zach Miner
Bobby Seay
Joel Zumaya
Ryan Perry?
John Grabow
Luis Ayala


- also, when we void Renteria's contract, and we offer him arbitration (which is a risk, b/c he could accept), but if he didn't accept and he goes elsewhere, we would receive two draft picks (1st rounder from the team he signed with and a 1st round sandwich pick), since he's going to be a Type A Free Agent. The same could've happened to us if we kept Pudge, and Farnsworth may be a Type B pick (which would get us just a sandwich pick between Rd's 1 & 2), so anything that helps us replenish our minor leagues is gravy.

and Jethro, Lackey has a 9 mill team option which will almost surely be picked up, so he won't be available...

You put "move Cabrera to 3rd because Guillen isn't driving in runs" but then you still listed Guillen at 3rd and Cabrera at 1st. Explanation?

You put "move Cabrera to 3rd because Guillen isn't driving in runs" but then you still listed Guillen at 3rd and Cabrera at 1st. Explanation?
3rd in the batting order - not 3rd base. Wow.


I've heard K-Rod will leave, but it will be for a HUGE contract somewhere else. Probably more than any other RP has ever gotten.

Ahh, that's why I asked, figured it was something simple I overlooked. When I read that, I wasn't even thinking batting order.

I feel like Wil's prospective lineup is about the best we're going to get. If guys finally play up to their potential, it could be solid, but I have my doubts after this year.

KRod is looking to get paid, no doubt.

- also, when we void Renteria's contract, and we offer him arbitration (which is a risk, b/c he could accept), but if he didn't accept and he goes elsewhere, we would receive two draft picks (1st rounder from the team he signed with and a 1st round sandwich pick), since he's going to be a Type A Free Agent. The same could've happened to us if we kept Pudge, and Farnsworth may be a Type B pick (which would get us just a sandwich pick between Rd's 1 & 2), so anything that helps us replenish our minor leagues is gravy.

Agreed. But what if he accepts teh arbitration? (shudders)

If the arbitrators know anything at all, his arbitration number will be rather small.

Maybe he'll want to leave so he can sign a minor league deal with the White Sox so he can be invited to their spring training where he can beat the hell out of Orlando Cabrera.

Then, Renteria would proceed to slaughter us next year just as he is this year. Should we sign him to a small deal so he doesn't play for them?

Or is his suck universal?

Renteria will want more financial secruity from an NL team rather than a 1 year tender at less than what he's making now. It's safe to say he wouldn't accept. He needs to go back to the NL.

Also, Orlando Cabrera is a free agent possibility if we can't get Jack Wilson. And Jon Garland would be another pitcher who'd be intriguing to look at.

Verlander's contract will be the big offseason priority. He's going to void his 1 mill option and opt for arbitration (he'd probably get about 4-7 from an arbitrator) but I think it'd be smarter, especially since his numbers haven't been great this year, to sign him long-term and maybe save a few bucks since his '08 has been so lousy...

Seay, Lopez, Thames, Santiago, and Rodney are also arib. eligible...

Most likely all will get a 1 year offer and avoid arbitration, Seay could get a two or three year deal.

Also, Orlando Cabrera is a free agent possibility if we can't get Jack Wilson. And Jon Garland would be another pitcher who'd be intriguing to look at.

The ChiSox have regretted acquiring him from day 2.

That was a very stupid trade (Garland for Cabrera).

The Angels love it, I'm sure.

True, I'd rather have Orlando than Edgar though. Orlando has 17 SB and is a better defender.

Apples & Oranges...

I think Chuck Hernadez = DONE.

Name one guy that has not regressed this year under his guidance.

True, I'd rather have Orlando than Edgar though. Orlando has 17 SB and is a better defender.

Apples & Oranges...

Orlando hits around .300 as well.

Orlando hits around .300 as well.

Once in 12 years.

.272 career

I think Chuck Hernadez = DONE.

Name one guy that has not regressed this year under his guidance.


I don't know if he'll be gone. Leyland's loyal to his staff, and if Leyland want's him to stay, I don't think Dave will go against that.

Leo Mazzone would be a slam dunk replacement though, should Chuck get fired.

I myself don't blame Chuck as much as some people are. He's not the one throwing the pitches, year by year development should have little to do with who your pitching coach is. I think it's the whole "power pitching" approach which has hindered our growth as a staff.

The factination this organization has with guys who can top out in the upper 90's is vastly overrated. A 97+ mph heater is useless if you can't locate it (Dolsi, Rodney, Zumaya).

Chuck could be the fall guy, but I don't think he's the main problem.

As mentioned in post #5, fat Chuck's contract is up at the end of the year, it might simply "not be renewed".

Mazzone would be a great hire.

personally, i don't think it would be the worst thing in the world if jim left...

i appreciate what he's done since he's been here, but his "over-coaching" has become a nasty habit, not to mention his "Sunday Lineups", and the way he's always "committed" to certain players (Nate, Jonesy, etc.)

Andy Van Slyke would be my first choice, should Leyland decide to quit.

I think the strike zone has hindered our pitchers a lot this year.

We have given more free passes than all but 4 teams in all of baseball.

We've lost 19 games in which we had a lead at the 7th inning or later.

That should be an indication that the starting pitching this year has been about par for the course, despite all the lousy ERA's and misleading W/L records...

Our 23 team saves are also tied for the 6th worst in all of baseball. We also have the worst number of shut outs (1), the 4th most blown saves (and the 4th worst %) and the 3rd worst K/BB ratio.

I know that we're all feeling really good about the Tigers right now, so this is only going to help:


Tigers will slash payroll in wake of bust

By Lynn Henning

Mike Ilitch has been typically silent, typically reclusive during a season that was supposed to have been the Tigers owner's $138 million crown jewel.

It does not, however, mean Ilitch's voice has not been heard inside Comerica Park's offices. It has, apparently at high volume.

The front office has taken a couple direct hits from the boss, and shock waves have been felt all the way to manager Jim Leyland's office, which might have had something to do with Leyland's 20-minute verbal lashing of his team before a nightmare of a game Aug. 3 at Tampa Bay.

What matters is not Ilitch's anger. What counts is how he will approach his team from a business standpoint heading into 2009 and beyond.

And what this season's disaster almost certainly will mean is that the Tigers will cut their astounding payroll by a heavy sum -- perhaps by $40 million or more.

And season-ticket renewals are bound to take a heavy hit in 2009, barring a late-season rally that isn't probable.

Asked Tuesday if he could foresee Ilitch extending his team the same payroll latitude next year and beyond, Dave Dombrowski, president and general manager for the Tigers, said: "It is still too early to address this issue."

In fact, Ilitch rarely has been an early bird when it comes to giving his front office its budget for a coming season.

This year could be an exception.

Salaries don't match market
But what likely is clear to Dombrowski and his aides will no doubt be finalized by Ilitch at least by October: Salaries must be lopped.

It will surely necessitate a different roster in '09.

There will be no re-signings of Todd Jones or maybe Kenny Rogers, which is a quick $14 million.

Edgar Renteria will not return, which will mean an $8 million reduction on what it would have cost to pick up his option next season.

Pudge Rodriguez already is gone -- that's $13 million. The man who came to Detroit in exchange for Pudge, Kyle Farnsworth, likely will leave as a free agent.

Assuming the Tigers will not be investing in any free agents beyond those at minimum price, they still will be looking at a 2009 payroll of $100 million-plus by the time renewals and players eligible for arbitration have been signed

Their 2008 venture, which saw the salaries expand from $95 million to $138 million ($137,685,196 to be exact), is a payroll out of whack with this market's size and its ability to generate dollars.

Only the New Yorkers -- the Yankees ($209,081,577) and Mets ($137,793,376) -- paid more this season than the Tigers.

Team stuck with big deals
Now will come the corrections.

And what one wonders is whether the Tigers can sufficiently prune their paychecks in any way other than to trade Magglio Ordonez, a marketable player with a big but movable contract.

Everywhere else, the doors will be virtually shut.

• Gary Sheffield, $14 million for 2009. The Tigers are stuck, unless Sheffield gets healthy, hits, and quits squawking. Two home runs Tuesday might have helped the forecast there.

• Carlos Guillen, $36 million through 2011. There's no shot at moving Guillen.

• Jeremy Bonderman, $25 million through 2010. If Bonderman recovers from thoracic surgery, as expected, he could earn his keep.

• Dontrelle Willis, $22 million through 2010. Willis, who was trying to piece together his pitching mechanics at Class A Lakeland, was elevated to Toledo Tuesday.

• Nate Robertson, $17 million through 2010.

• Brandon Inge, $12.9 million through 2010.

• Placido Polanco, $4.6 million in 2009.

Other players not locked in for 2009 will have earned a bump, too: Marcus Thames; Justin Verlander is eligible for arbitration and will do nicely, even after an off-year; and Armando Galarraga, Zach Miner and Bobby Seay.

The big problem is Sheffield. If the Tigers could say goodbye to his $14 million in 2009, the books might well balance adequately to keep the roster reasonably intact.

Trading Ordonez is option
But with no realistic chance today of trading Sheffield and mailing his contract to another club, the prospect of dealing Ordonez could be a must-do to Ilitch.

Ordonez has the dual benefit Ilitch and Dombrowski could be seeking this autumn. A man now in the hunt for his second consecutive AL batting championship has a huge contract a top club in a big market could consider taking on.

If Ordonez has 135 starts or 540 plate appearances (at-bats, walks, hit-by-pitch, etc.) in 2009, his option years for 2010 ($15 million) and 2011 ($15 million) are guaranteed. If he has a combined 270 starts and 1,080 plate appearances during 2008-09, those last two option years kick in.

In other words, if Ordonez stays healthy in 2009, he ends up with the seven-year, $105 million contract the Tigers originally agreed upon in February 2005.

It's a lot of money. But Ordonez, at age 34, is a lot of hitter. And he could prove tempting to a team looking for a slugger who could help get them over the hump in '09.

The Tigers have drafted a crop of young pitchers and are, whether they agree with it or not, probably gearing for a fresh attack on the Central Division race that might not materialize for two or three seasons.

Trading Ordonez for any future help could prove more than tempting, even if that were the only consideration. But dealing Ordonez also might be a mandate. An owner who went for it all in 2008 has learned, painfully, that a hefty payroll and World Series appearances aren't always one and the same.

Don't friggin trade Mags for chrissakes.

Well, I certainly don't have faith in our team's ability to take the crown next year, so I'm open to dealing Ordonez at the right price... What that right price is, I'm really not sure and will have to investigate.

Fucking Willis. (polishes pistol, opens bottle of Jack)

If we trade him, it better be for some top-level prospects.

If we trade him, it better be for some top-level prospects.


I don't think we could get top-level propsects for him. For instance, there's now ay in hell the Reds would give us Jay Bruce for him. Best keep him.

Cabrera must love all this talk

I heard Henning on the radio on the way home and he said that the Tigers are pissed at him about that article.

I don't think we could get top-level propsects for him. For instance, there's now ay in hell the Reds would give us Jay Bruce for him. Best keep him.

No, they wouldn't, but if this situation were 2 years ago they might have. If we're going to trade Maggs we can't look for a Jay Bruce who's major league ready, we'd need to look for something similair to what the Marlins did when we got Cabrera, go after a stud prospect who's a couple years away like Maybin.

I'm not ready to mail in 2009 quite yet though. I think our problems are pretty easily identifiable and thus should be fixable. With a solid 3rd starter and a fixed up bullpen I think this squad can give it another go.

I can't see Illitch throwing in the towel for '09. Henning is a tool, he said in spring training of '07 that the Tigs wouldn't be able to sign Guillen to an extension until the offseason, and he signed a 4 year deal two days later...


I'll take it with a grain of salt. Chicago's minor league system is worse than ours (per BaseballAmerica), Minny & Cleveland won't spend money, and the Royals will never be a threat. '09 is there for the taking...

Besides, who do we have in the minors to 'rebuild' around?? Nothing but unpolished youngsters down there...

Danny Knobler from cbssportsline...



DETROIT -- If you were wrong about the Tigers, at least you had company.

Not just from the no-nothings in the media, either. Don't blame us, because in a Sports Illustrated survey of nearly 500 major league players this spring, 45 percent of them picked the Tigers to win the World Series, too.


Maybe they meant the 2009 World Series. Or maybe not, because four months after the Tigers were World Series favorites, they're enough of a mess that it won't be easy to fix them in just one short winter.

As one rival executive said this week: "They need CC Sabathia, and they need K-Rod."

The best free-agent starter. The best free-agent closer.

And even then, the Tigers still wouldn't have a shortstop.

The Tigers spent nearly $140 million on a 2008 team that's four games under .500 and sinking fast, a team that is a lot closer to last place than to first. They already have $100 million committed to just 10 players for 2009, and that's before you add in arbitration-eligible Justin Verlander, who could get $5 million himself.

There's no shortstop in that group, either. And no closer.

There is, however, $53 million committed over the next two years to Gary Sheffield, Dontrelle Willis and Nate Robertson -- three players the Tigers would just as soon not have on their 2009 roster.

As if that's not bad enough, the Tigers traded 11 players out of their farm system the last two winters, and the only player they received back who is guaranteed to help them in 2009 is first baseman Miguel Cabrera.

Cabrera is settling in and looks every bit as great as advertised. But 11-for-1? No wonder the Tigers will have a hard time trading prospects for help in the coming months.

They do need help. Somehow, they have to find a shortstop to replace Edgar Renteria, who has been a huge disappointment. They have to rebuild the bullpen, which is 3-for-11 in save opportunities since the All-Star break.

They really ought to add one or two starting pitchers, too.


I wouldn't even bother on K-Rod. He's an outstanding closer, but his price tag is going to be outrageous. Not to mention his stats could be a tad bit overrated since only reason he has so many saves, is because the Angels aren't a great offensive team.

Here's the rest of the article that Wil posted (I assume that he didn't see that there was a second page)


How do you do all that? Well, one executive suggested that the Tigers at least discuss shopping Verlander, Magglio Ordonez and/or Placido Polanco. While it's hard to tell how they'll feel this winter, at this point the Tigers seem to have no interest in moving any of them.

They also seem to have no interest in a big rebuilding project. It was suggested in a Detroit newspaper that owner Mike Ilitch would slash the payroll, but those who know Ilitch think it's more likely that Ilitch will authorize even more spending.

At 79, and with a fan base that continues to fill Comerica Park's seats, Ilitch remains committed to trying to win now.

Those fans seem understandably restless. They've booed Sheffield, Kyle Farnsworth and Joel Zumaya.

And that's just this week's list.

Sheffield's most recent complaints received a lot of attention, but it's hard to believe anyone took him seriously. He can't play the outfield anymore without getting hurt, and the feeling among most scouts who have watched him this year is that he probably can't hit anymore, either.

Sheffield is the Tigers' loudest problem, but not their biggest problem. They could make him disappear by simply eating money, either to convince another team to take him in a trade (no one is going to claim that contract on waivers) or by simply releasing him.

If only it were that easy to make some quality pitching appear.

At the moment, the 2009 rotation consists of Verlander, Armando Galarraga and a whole bunch of question marks. Haven't heard of Galarraga? He's the 26-year-old rookie who has been the Tigers' leading winner.

As one Tigers person pointed out this week, it's not good that their most consistent pitcher is the first guy they cut from big league camp this spring.

But maybe we -- and the Tigers -- should have seen this coming.

Another person in the organization complained this week that for the last two winters, the focus was always on adding offensive players, and never on adding pitching.

"Maybe we got blinded by how well the guys pitched in 2006," the person said. "But really, you can never have enough pitching."

The scary thing is that some people in the organization believe that it won't add a significant starting pitcher this winter. Instead, it would count on Verlander to bounce back from a disappointing season, and also on Jeremy Bonderman to come back from surgery.

That seems like quite a gamble. Then again, the Tigers were gambling with their pitching when they were World Series favorites this spring. Their 1,000-run lineup was supposed to make up for any and all pitching woes. Instead, that lineup has been shut out an American League-high 11 times, and avoided a 12th when they scored in the ninth inning of a 4-3 loss to Toronto Wednesday night.

The Tigers would do well to replace Sheffield with a decent left-handed hitter. They're 35-50 when the opponent starts a right-handed pitcher, a winning percentage that adds up to 67-95 over a full 162-game season.

Still, a lineup that starts with a top five of Curtis Granderson, Polanco, Carlos Guillen, Ordonez and Cabrera should be good enough. Should be, but wasn't, at least not this year.

"If you build a building and the base isn't strong, it can be the best building in the world and it's still going to tilt," Guillen said.

How do you fix that?

"How do you fix your house?" Guillen said. "You fix the problems."

Good luck on doing that. And rest assured that I'm not picking the Tigers next spring.

Chances are, 45 percent of the major league players feel the same way.

Intersting and encouraging stuff here (http://wtfdetroit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6741&page=8).

Cabrera must love all this talk

Besides the pitching staff, Cabs is prolly the player I'm most concerned about...I mean not getting pissed and wanting to get traded, etc.

Watching him again tonight, he shows NO signs of being down. I know he's making a bazillion dollars so he should be happy, but that aint the way it works with professional athletes these day. He seems to be happy and willing to bide his time or something or whatever that saying is.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9527/ddloc4.jpg

^ I just felt like posting that for some reason.

I've been thinking about how to salvage this team for next year without having to have another down year. I think they can do it. If this offseason is focused on pitching, they should be okay.

The problem areas, in my opinion, are shortstop, catcher and 3rd. I would actually like to see Inge move back to third. Yes he has a shitty average, but he's a top teir defensive 3rd baseman.

At shortstop, there are a couple of free agents, but I wouldn't mind Holliman playing short all season. He's good defensively, and his bat may develop. Here are the free agents at SS:

Orlando Cabrera CWS
Alex Cintron CWS
Alex Cora BOS
Craig Counsell * MIL
Adam Everett MIN
Rafael Furcal LAD
Cesar Izturis STL
Ramon Martinez LAD
Edgar Renteria * DET
Juan Uribe CWS

It would be funny to get rid of Renteria and sign Cabrera. I would LOL.

Catcher is the problem. Here are the free agents at catcher:
Rod Barajas TOR
Henry Blanco * CHC
Johnny Estrada WAS
Toby Hall * CWS
Adam Melhuse TEX
Mike Redmond * MIN
Ivan Rodriguez NYY
David Ross BOS
Javier Valentin CIN
Jason Varitek BOS
Vance Wilson DET
Gregg Zaun * TOR

I don't want Dane as our 2009 opening day catcher, but I don't want to spend a lot of money on anyone else. If the Tigers can get an aging Varitek (unlikely) that would be huge, but a solid defensive catcher would be nice. That leaves us with three holes in the lineup, but if the pitching is the way I want it, that shouldn't be a problem.

Pitching is where the Tigers should use any money they have to secure an Ace. Pitchers are overpaid, but how many times have we seen a team with small bats and great pitching win? Sign a good pitcher and things will look up for next year. A key bullpen signing would be nice. Verlander cannot be an ace, but he will be a great 2nd or 3rd guy. Here are the free agent pitchers:

Starting Pitchers
Kris Benson PHI
A.J. Burnett TOR (may opt out)
Paul Byrd CLE
Ryan Dempster CHC
Jon Garland LAA
Tom Glavine ATL
Mike Hampton * ATL
Rich Harden * CHC
Orlando Hernandez NYM
Jason Jennings TEX
Randy Johnson ARZ
John Lackey * LAA
Esteban Loaiza CHW
Braden Looper STL
Derek Lowe LAD
Pedro Martinez NYM
Mike Mussina NYY
Jamie Moyer PHI
Mark Mulder * STL
Carl Pavano NYY
Brad Penny * LAD
Odalis Perez WAS
Oliver Perez NYM
Andy Pettitte NYY
Mark Prior SD
Horatio Ramirez CHW
C.C. Sabathia MIL
Ben Sheets MIL
John Smoltz * ATL
Julian Tavarez ATL
Steve Trachsel BAL
Brett Tomko SD
Claudio Vargas MIL
Randy Wolf HOU

Relief Pitchers
Jeremy Affeldt CIN
Tony Armas Jr. PIT
Luis Ayala WAS
Joe Beimel LAD
Joe Borowski CLE
Juan Cruz ARZ
Brendan Donnelly BOS
Scott Downs TOR
Alan Embree * OAK
Scott Eyre CHC
Kyle Farnsworth DET
Casey Fossum TB
Brian Fuentes COL
Aaron Fultz CLE
Tom Gordon * PHI
LaTroy Hawkins HOU
Mark Hendrickson LAD
Trevor Hoffman SD
Bobby Howry CHC
Jason Isringhausen STL
Steve Kline SF
Brandon Lyon ARZ
Damaso Marte * NYY
Tom Martin COL
Julio Mateo PHI
Guillermo Mota MIL
Will Ohman CHC
Hideki Okajima * BOS
Darren Oliver LAA
John Parrish SEA
Chris Reitsma SEA
Dennys Reyes MIN
Juan Rincon CLE
Francisco Rodriguez LAA
Brian Shouse MIL
Rafael Soriano ATL
Jorge Sosa NYM
Mike Stanton * CIN
Salomon Torres * MIL
Derrick Turnbow MIL
Oscar Villarreal ATL
David Weathers CIN
Dan Wheeler TB
Dave Williams NYM
Matt Wise NYM
Jay Witasick TB
Kerry Wood CHC

Sheff needs to go, even if we eat most, if not all of his salary.

I would base the lineup as so:
1. Granderson, cf
2. Polanco, 2B
3. Ordonez, rf
4. Cabrera, 1B
5. Guillen, DH
6. Joyce, LF
7. Holliman, SS
8. *Catcher*
9. Inge, 3B

Pitching Rotation:
1. Free Agent
2. Bonderman
3. Verlander
4. Galaraga
5. Willis/Miner/Robertson?

This could be expensive. If we want to stick with the starting pitching we have now and hope for Willis to come back, so be it. The Tigers would need at least 2 solid bullpen guys then. I expect Porcello to start seeing some time late next season, as well as our first round draft pick from this year. That will help.

I have a feeling Mags might be traded in the offseason, however.

I'm hoping both Dontrelle and Freddy Garcia can get their shit straightend out to the point where they at least are average. If Freddy can have a strong offseason, the price we could sign him for would be a major discount from having to go overpay somebody else

And if Dontrelle can just win 12 games, and keep his ERA under 5, I'll take that out of my 5 spot in the rotation.

I'm still intrigued by Derek Lowe...though


And I'm not sure about Hollimon, I think they'd put Danny Worth on the fast track instead. I don't think Hollimon has any future other than a utility infielder.

I have a feeling Renteria's going to come back next year...

Not to mention, we're going to have to blow some 40 man roster spots on rule 5 eligibles...

Fossum, Glover, Sardinha, Hessman, Vance, Farnsworth, Vasquez, Lambert, Jones, Rogers, Bonine and possibly Clevlen are gonna to all have to go bye-bye so we can clear up some room for guys like Skelton, Wilkin Ramirez, Alfredo Figaro, Luis Marte, etc.

I forgot about Garcia - he could be an impact player. He could definitely round out our 5 man rotation if all goes well.

Tiger management just needs to bite the bullet and dump a bunch of salaries and start over with a few core players.

Pitchers to loose:

Bondo - too expensive- worth something in trade
Rogers - too old
Robertson - too crappy
Jones - just awful
Farnsworth - bring back if cheap
Willis - probaly stuck with him

Infielders to loose:

Renteria - too expensive
Sheffield - too old
Guillen - too expensive - worth something in trade
Inge - too expensive- worth something in trade

Outfielders to loose:

Thames - strikes out a ton - trade for youth
Ordonez - too expensive - trade for a starting pitcher

This dumps a crap load of money and leaves you a core of:

1B - Cabrera
2B - Polanco
SS - Santiago
3B - Larrish
reserves-Hessman/Rayburn/Holliman/
C - Sardinia
RF - Joyce
CF - Granderson
LF - C. Thomas
reserves - Rayburn/Cleveland
SP - Galarraga
SP - Verlander
SP - Miner
SP - Zumaya
RP - Dolsi
RP - Rodney
RP - Seay
reserves - a bunch of mediocre players

Add in the players that you get in trade and via free agency (now that you freed up some cash) and you have a solid team to build on.

^ I can go with almost all of that cept getting rid of Ordonez. He still has a lot left, imo, and can carry a team. He is someone who you helps so much cuz you can't pitch around the 3 or something, wherever he's hitting.

I'm not on board because that team would win 67 games.

Zumaya as a starter?

I'm not on board until you figure out how to spell lose.

Also how to win games.

I'm not on board because that team would win 67 games.

Zumaya as a starter?

67 games is being generous.

Ok, it was late last night and I spelled lose wrong. At any rate, Zumaya was a starter in the minors and was considered quite good. He was slated as a closer because of his velocity. Since he can't stay healthy, maybe a starting role where he isn't expected to throw at 96+ could revive his career.

Also, none of you considered what players would come in from trades and free agency. Mags is worth a fair amount. Bondo? Thames? You would get something of value for those guys. Freeing up all of that cash would also allow the Tigers to spend some money. I'm not saying that it would be a World Series team but it would get younger and would likely compete (depending on who they pick up) for a playoff spot. That's much better then what we have now.

The problem is that I don't think you'd get the same value on trades of Bondo or Mags. Dumping all of those salaries is easier said than done. I like most of our minor leaguers, but I wouldn't trust them to be everyday players.

Mags is like 35, right?

You could not get equal value or a top level prospect for Maggs. For example, there's no way in hell the Reds would part with Jay Bruce for Maggs, nor would, say, the Red Sox part with Ellsbury for Maggs. It's impossible to get value for a guy like him.

Not to mention, he's paid pretty fair for the production he gives us, so there's really no point in trading him.

Also, there's no sense in trading Guillen without anybody to replace him.

I really wouldn't mind seeing Guillen as our DH for next season.

I think we'll still be looking to contend next year. Even though the W/L record wasn't what it was supposed to be, Illitch saw what having a great offseason can do to the attendance (over 3 mill fans). This had to be the most profitable year for Illitch since the move to Comerica, so to assume we'll shave payroll as if this club is "way over there heads" is a bit premature.

We have tons of roster issues that will have to be made this offseason. Basically, we'll have to pick from a pool of 60 guys to fill out the 40-man with all the Rule 5 eligibles we'll have to protect, on top of all the AAAA players (Clevlen, Hollimon, Clete Thomas, Virgil, Hessman, Raburn, Larish) to make decisions on.

The AL Central isn't getting any better. Cleveland could be heading for rebuild next year, as they try and develop kids like LaPorta and shit. Chicago will be losing Griffey, O.Cabrera, Crede, and Dotel to Free Agency. And Minnesota, for all I know, could be a fluke (either way, they're not going to spend this offseason).

I think much of this year was a product of our horrendous start, absolutely nothing went right until late June, and it turned out to be too late. With a few roster tweaks and a couple FA signings (preferably relief pitchers and a starter) I think the Central is very winnable next year.

Anyone think that this Dusty Ryan kid could be our catcher for 2009? He certainly has the name to be a star.

I'd like to see Joe Biden get a start. If he's not playing corner for the Lions, maybe we can fit him in here.

Wil can never catch a break around here.

Catch what? Am I going to get sick?

I'd like to see Joe Biden get a start. If he's not playing corner for the Lions, maybe we can fit him in here.


You know Vinny, I did the Biden/Bodden thing on purpose, because both are about as well-known, nationally...

Anyone think that this Dusty Ryan kid could be our catcher for 2009? He certainly has the name to be a star.

He will for sure be our backup next year at the very least. He was going to be Rule 5 eligible had the Tigs not placed him on the 40 man, which they did, so he's pretty much punched his spot on next year's 25 man roster.

Sardinha's gone for sure. Vance could get a minor league deal, he said he wants to be with the Tigs or he'll retire. I'm sure DD will toss him a bone and he'll play in Toledo, but Ryan is a lock for '09.

If the Tigers can land Orlando Cabrera, does that solidify our defense for next year? I don't think he would be all that expensive...

C: Ryan (yeah I said it)
1B: Cabrera
2B: Polanco
3B: Inge
SS: O. Cabrera
RF: Ordonez
CF: Granderson
LF: Joyce
DH: Guillen

That seems like a pretty solid defensive team there, very solid in fact. I don't see a whole lot of holes in the offense, either, with the exception of Inge and possibly Ryan. Cabrera isn't a bad leadoff man, either. Granderson could move down in the order, as they've wanted him to for a while.

They would need to find one GOOD reliever and it I would consider that a successful offseason.

I don't think we'll go after Orlando, the more I look at it, the more I think we're going to re-sign Edgar...

Orlando will cost too much, especially if he plays well in the postseason.

Orlando is getting up there in age, I think he's 32 now. He's making 10 million this year. I would expect less for next year.

I'm okay with Edgar at SS, as long as Inge plays 3B. I know his bat sucks, but he's a sensational fielder. It will cover up for Edgar sucking as much as he already does.

If that's the case, the Tigers need to get two or three solid relievers. I may be wrong, but I think the starting pictching will be solid next year. I have faith that either Willis, Garcia or Robertson can do okay. Miner might not even be a bad 5th starter. But nearly everyone in the bullpen needs to be broomed. I would give Zumaya one last shot, keep Bobby, but that's about it. Everything else needs to be completely reworked, including set up man and closer.

I'm okay with Edgar at SS, as long as Inge plays 3B. I know his bat sucks, but he's an Ingespirational fielder. It will cover up for Edgar sucking as much as he already does.

Edgar should go eat a ween. Get him the fuck out of Detroit.

Is he better than what we can get on the market, though? Yes he probably should eat a ween, but if he's the best we got, we gotta stick with him and his ween eating ways.

Ramon Santiago >= Renteria overall.

Why did JL get suspended?

excessive arguing with Angel Hernandez...

Ramon Santiago >= Renteria overall.


I think Ramon playing fulltime SS would make you appreciate Edgar's mediocrity...

Why? His defense is superb, I wouldn't much care if he batted .240 looking at the rest of our lineup.

I'm not saying we should roll with that, but I'm saying it's not a bad fallback plan if we absolutely can't get a better SS rather than another year of Edgar.

If they thought Adam Kennedy (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3597316) could play SS, this would be a possibility.

David Eckstein could be a possiblity. He'd definitely be cheap, but he has his flaws. I think it will be difficult to convince Guillen to play full-time DH. He was actually playing solid at 3B.

The thing I hate about Inge at 3rd, is that he's such a terrible player at the plate, that I don't think it's worth having a catcher and third basemen who are going to offer little to no offense. Inge at catcher makes his batting average more permissable.

I think what's going to happen, is Edgar's option will be declined, and the Tigs will offer him a 1 yr deal with incentives and a vesting option. He said he wants to come back next year, and it's not worth shelling out dough to a Rafael Furcal or Orlando Cabrera.

Edgar's just one of many players having an inconsistent season, that said, I think he'll get the opportunity to rebound.

This offseason needs to be 95% dedicated to pitching. Re-sign Freddy, sign another starter (Derek Lowe), and sign a reliever or two...

The thing I hate about Inge at 3rd, is that he's such a terrible player at the plate, that I don't think it's worth having a catcher and third basemen who are going to offer little to no offense. Inge at catcher makes his batting average more permissable.


You better not be talking about Dusty Ryan. Them's fightin' words...

Kennedy sounds very professional there. Not what I expected from a modern-day professional athlete.

You better not be talking about Dusty Ryan. Them's fightin' words...
Dusty Ryan once kicked the ass of Bill Braskey!

Dombrowski: Leyland to return as Tigers' manager

Lynn Henning / The Detroit News

Jim Leyland will return to the Tigers as manager in 2009.

Dave Dombrowski, the Tigers president and general manager, today squelched any speculation that Leyland might be fired after three seasons in Detroit. The Tigers are tied for last place in the American League Central Division with the Kansas City Royals entering tonight's game against the Royals at Comerica Park.

"Yes, oh yeah," Dombrowski said when asked if Leyland would absolutely return in 2009. "He's under contract next year."

Dombrowski has steadily refused to evaluate his team during any previous season. He declined this week to get into any particular analysis of Leyland, the coaching staff, or the team, saying such explanations would wait until after the regular season ends.

The Tigers are scheduled to complete their regular season Sunday against the Tampa Bay Rays at Comerica Park. They could yet be required to travel to Chicago to play the White Sox in a makeup game Monday if it has any bearing on the Central Division's playoff representatives, which could be the White Sox or the Minnesota Twins.

Leyland had a dreamy start to his managerial tenure in Detroit in 2006. He was named American League Manager of the Year after directing the Tigers to a 95-67 record and to a surprise appearance in the World Series, which they lost to St. Louis in five games.

Last season, the team fell to 88-74. This season was viewed by most national baseball analysts as a likely playoff and World Series opportunity for the Tigers after they added big names during the 2007-08 off-season, including Miguel Cabrera, Dontrelle Willis, Edgar Renteria and Jacque Jones.

But the Tigers began the year with health issues in their bullpen, lost their first seven games, and only briefly have played above the .500 mark. They are 71-85 entering tonight's game with the Royals, despite having one of the top payrolls in all of baseball.

The Tigers pitching has been among the worst in baseball in 2008. Healthy bodies have been at a premium, due to season-ending ailments for Jeremy Bonderman, Joel Zumaya and Todd Jones, as well as a failure by Willis to remain in the Tigers rotation because of extreme control problems that sent him to the minor leagues for three months.

Beginning with Willis, the off-season's trades have been less than expected, with the exception of Cabrera, who could win the league's home-run championship.

Leyland turns 64 in December. He has made it known he would like an extension past the 2009 season. But there has been no indication from Dombrowski or from owner Mike Ilitch that Leyland will be extended.

Vinny - what's the status for Porcello for next year? Is there a chance he might come up at some point next year, or does 2010 look more likely?

Leyland's only 64, but he looks at least 74 to me.

I was actually hoping for a change for some reason. We needed the potent team of Mr D and JoeD running things here at the end.

Vinny - what's the status for Porcello for next year? Is there a chance he might come up at some point next year, or does 2010 look more likely?

I'd say late September 09 or 10 unless he's just gangbusters out of the gate in AA next year.

more likely to see Ryan Perry next year than Porcello...

Just because Perry's a reliever or is he really that much further along?

Just because Perry's a reliever or is he really that much further along?


Not only because he's a reliever, but Perry's much more polished since he played at Univ of Georgia for a couple years and he's older than Porcello is.

Rick was drafted out of HS, it's rare to see those guys make it to the big show with less than 2 full yrs of minor league ball.

It took Clayton Kershaw two years...I'd expect the same, at the very least, with Porcello.

Also, Leyland mentioned that for '09 he's looking at Guillen playing LF, and Inge playing 3rd??

So add a catcher to the offseason grocery list. (No, Dusty Ryan won't be the starter)

How does Guillen feel about playing LF, I wonder?

he volunteered to, per Leyland

Also, Leyland mentioned that for '09 he's looking at Guillen playing LF, and Inge playing 3rd??

So add a catcher to the offseason grocery list. (No, Dusty Ryan won't be the starter)

Die.

Renteria's contract will be bought out
by Steve Kornacki
Monday September 29, 2008, 1:56 PM


• Detroit will buy out the $12 million contract shortstop Edgar Renteria has for next season for $3 million, but could bring him back for less money.

"We have advised him that we are not going to pick up his option," Dombrowski said, "but we are not going to close the door. We have to get better at shortstop."

• Ramon Santiago could end up handling the shortstop position with a "mix-and-match" approach. He does not want to get a "long-term" shortstop because he is so high on Cale Iorg, 23, whom they drafted out of the University of Alabama in 2007.


"Cale Iorg is going to be a superstar," Dombrowski said, "and real soon."

• Dusty Ryan, who has had an impressive September, is being considered as the primary catcher.

"It might be Dusty Ryan," Dombrowski said. "We've got to bring some young guys in here."

• Obtaining a closer appears to be one change almost certain to come from a player not in the organization, though he is not totally ruling out Fernando Rodney.

"Fernando is the leading candidate with the team we have," said Dombrowski, adding that he can't count on the injured Joel Zumaya at this point. "But I'd really like to find someone else to do that."

The mid-season trade of catcher Ivan Rodriguez for Kyle Farnsworth did not end up being a solution.

"The move of Kyle Farnsworth did not work out for us," Dombrowski said.

******


http://blog.mlive.com/tigers_impact/2008/09/medium_080929-edgar-renteria-bobbles-throw.jpg

Yikes, I though Edgar was in the last year of his deal!

Too bad they don't have that same buyout option for Sheff.

• Dusty Ryan, who has had an impressive September, is being considered as the primary catcher.

"It might be Dusty Ryan," Dombrowski said. "We've got to bring some young guys in here."

:motown soa:

SUCK IT, LEDEZMA. YOU GOT DUSTIED!

"Cale Iorg is going to be a superstar," Dombrowski said, "and real soon."

Wow, I hope DD knows something we don't know. Cale hit .254 this year in A-ball, not looking like a superstar.

Wow, I hope DD knows something we don't know. Cale hit .254 this year in A-ball, not looking like a superstar.

Considering that he was a mid-season and post-season All-Star in the Florida State League, he's not doing too bad.
His statistics are interesting, because he only hit .254, he struck out 111 times, and he had 18 errors.
But at the same time, he was in the top 5 in triples, top 10 in SB, and top 25 for both HR and OPS in the league.
Some plate discipline and better decisions in the field and he could be legit.

I really hope so but I'm not holding my breath.

How can he not succeed with Dane and Garth's bloodlines?

How can he not succeed with Dane and Garth's bloodlines?

Ouch. Hopefully his uncle and father are no indication of his ability.

Uncle Dane could teach him to increase his BA, since he has a career average of .276, but Daddy only carried a .258 BA.

Generally you hope that a player can bring either a high average, or some power, or some speed. If they have more than one of those they are even better. If they have none, they better be able to field the position well.

Primarily an outfielder, Dane committed only 17 errors over 10 seasons, but only played in an average of 47 games per season.
Garth, an infielder like his son, played in 928 games (mostly at 3rd or 2nd) and only committed 79 errors, pretty decent for an infielder, especially at 3rd.

So what we've learned here is that neither of his baseball ancestors could hit for power (they both averaged 3 HR per 162 games played) and neither was fast (they stole a COMBINED 5 bases per 162 games).

So Dane better help him up his average by 25 points and Garth better help him become a better fielder. If he figures out speed and power on his own, Dombrowski may be right.

I recalled both of those names purely based on the memory of my baseball cards.

I just learned today that if you finished amongst the worst 15 teams in the league (which the Tigs certainly did), than you won't lose your 1st round pick if you sign a Type A Free Agent.

So say if we sign Brian Fuentes, we'll still keep our Top 10 pick next year.

So 2008 wasn't a TOTAL bust, I guess. It was.

Jon Paul Morosi suggested in Sundays paper that the Tigs need to approach their offseason as a mirror image of what the White Sox did last offseason.

If you recall, the White Sox we're unexplanibly brutal in '07 despite having a very talented roster and coming off a year in which they won 90+. And just like us, in '07 the Sox had MAJOR pitching issues, mainly the bullpen.

So last offseason, Kenny Williams ponied up some cash and signed both Scott Linebrink & Octavio Dotel. Two guys that didn't exactly set the world on fire, but two quality veterans who posted respectable ERA's and got the ball to the closer without blowing leads.

I hope Dave's able to pull off something like that.

The White Sox also made that awful Garland for Orlando Cabrera deal.

I just learned today that if you finished amongst the worst 15 teams in the league (which the Tigs certainly did), than you won't lose your 1st round pick if you sign a Type A Free Agent.

So say if we sign Brian Fuentes, we'll still keep our Top 10 pick next year.

So 2008 wasn't a TOTAL bust, I guess. It was.

So if a team like the Dodgers sign some big FA they lose their first rounder?

I thought that the team that loses the free agent got some extra sandwich pick(s) at the end of the 1st round.

Are you sure that teams lose picks for signing type A free agents?

I thought that the team that loses the free agent got some extra sandwich pick(s) at the end of the 1st round.

Are you sure that teams lose picks for signing type A free agents?


Yes, say the Dodgers sign K-Rod. K-Rod is a definite Type A. Since the Dodgers record was amongst the top 15 teams this year, their 1st round pick would go to the Angels.

Now on top of the Angels getting the Dodgers 1st rounder, they would also get a sandwich pick between Rounds 1 & 2.

Say the Tigers signed K-Rod. Then the Angels would get two sandwich picks, because the bottom 15 teams 1st round picks are protected.

Now, for Type B...

Say the Dodgers signed a Type B guy like Kyle Farnsworth (although I don't think he's Type B but for the sake of example). Then the Tigers would get a sandwich pick between Rds 1 & 2.


BUT here's the catch, you only get compensation for free agents if they decline arbitration.

For example: Pudge is a Type B free agent. The Yankees can either A) let him walk and get nothing, B) offer him arbitration and he accepts it, or C) offer him arbitration and he declines it

The only way the Yankees could get a compensation pick in that scenario is if Pudge does C).

But in the case of guys like Fuentes, Manny, CC, Sheets, and K-Rod. Those are 5 guys who are only going to be looking for long-term contracts. So offering them arbitration is a no-brainer. Those teams would LOVE them to accept arbitration.

The only way a team would offer you arbitration is if their certain you would decline it. Although, sometimes it happens and the player does accept it (Mark Loretta/Astros last year).


I hope I made it clear, it's a confusing study.

You explained it very well, thanks.

Too bad we don't have the resources...
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3647795

I'd give Verlander & Dusty Ryan for Peavy...

You just love to piss me off, don't you Wil?

I'll give them Willis, Renterria and Sheff.

Ok, what would they really want from us?

I'll give them Willis, Renterria and Sheff.

Ok, what would they really want from us?
The best part about this is thinking of all the young talent we gave up for those guys....







:emo kid:

Too bad we don't have the resources...
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3647795

Any word on if Mark Mulder's available too?

But which one's better, Vinny? Clearly we need a thread to discuss this.

The best part about this is thinking of all the young talent we gave up for those guys....


:emo kid:

Yeah, all of which has done absolutely nothing at the MLB level thus far. (except for Jurrjens)

Humberto Sanchez- Tommy John surgery
Kevin Whelan- nothing
Anthony Claggett- nothing
Cameron Maybin- could only crack a September call-up in FLA this year
Andrew Miller- went 6-10 with a 5.87 ERA and 1.64 WHIP for the Marlins, 56 walks in just 107 IP
Eulogio De La Cruz- got rocked in a couple stints with the Marlins over the summer
Burke Badenhop- went 2-3 w/ the Marlins with an ERA over 6 and a 1.61 WHIP!!! All before being placed on the 60 Day DL in June
Dallas Trahern- went 5-11, with an ERA over 6 in AAA
Jair Jurrjens- Armando Galarraga had the same amount of wins as Jurrjens, except Galarraga had less walks, a lower ERA, and fewer losses
Gorkys Hernandez- batting average dropped over 30 points playing in A ball
Mike Rableo- hit .202 in 109 AB's w/ the Marlins

You're fine to rip on everyone else, but Maybin did hit .500 in 32 at bats. Give the kid some credit - he is very young.

You're fine to rip on everyone else, but Maybin did hit .500 in 32 at bats. Give the kid some credit - he is very young.


Yeah, your right. He had a solid two weeks. But his strikeout numbers in the minors this year we're unheard of.

Any word on if Mark Mulder's available too?
Word on the ESPN ticker is they're not picking up his 11M$ option....

Word on the ESPN ticker is they're not picking up his 11M$ option....


I'd take a waiver on him... 1 year, 1 mill, packed with incentives...low risk-high reward really...

of course Freddy Garcia will probably get the same thing from us, but with as much SP woes as we have, the more the better, let these guys battle it out in spring training...

ESPN just reported Scott Boras is shopping Jason Varitek to the tigers. He's not what he once was, but he would be great for the clubhouse, pitching staff and mentoring Dusty.

I think he's from Michigan, too.

Rochester.

ESPN just reported Scott Boras is shopping Jason Varitek to the tigers. He's not what he once was, but he would be great for the clubhouse, pitching staff and mentoring Dusty.

Uhg. I hear Veritek wants a lot of money though (which is why he isn't already extended). Also, he has a terrible arm doesn't he? I'm pretty such people just round the bases on him like Victor Martinez.

Varitek's garbage.

If we're going to sign a catcher strictly for defense & leadership, why not just re-sign Pudge?

At least he'll hit .40 points higher than Varitek will.

The more I see it, the more I think Dusty Ryan is going to have every opportunity to win the catcher's job in spring training.

Also, IDK if anybody knew, but Virgil Vasquez was placed on waivers last week, and the Red Sox claimed him.

Also, Gary Glover & Dane Sardinha we're outrighted to AAA, and both will become free agents. Good ridance.

LET THE FUENTES SWEEPSTAKES BEGIN BABY! GET AFTER HIM DETROIT!

Don't get your hopes up.

Fuentes may be well out of our price range.

'09 Closer may be on the team already, as scary as that sounds.

Please no

Another 40 year old+ closer becomes available.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3694923

Dombrowski on The Huge Show: Tigers can't afford to pursue Francisco Rodriguez
by The Grand Rapids Press
Tuesday November 11, 2008, 10:30 PM
Tigers president Dave Dombrowski joined Bill Simonson on "The Huge Show" to talk about his plan for Detroit in the offseason, including a potential upgrade to the bullpen that won't include free agent closer Francisco Rodriguez.

"In the K-Rod case, what he's advertised out there what he's looking to have as a free agent ... I don't think we're in a position where we're going to compete and pay him those dollars," Dombrowksi said. "A lot of our people here need to step up and do the job for us. Right now, it's a wide-open bullpen."

I wonder if Dusty Ryan can close...

RE: #146

I heard that same interview and DD listed his top 3 priorities (in no specific order) as catcher, SS and bullpen.

Kerry Wood is now a real possibility now that the Cubs aren't going to resign him. I'd take him in a heartbeat.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3700730

Tigs are looking at a few relievers...

Trevor Hoffman
Darren Oliver
Arthur Rhodes
David Weathers


all are older than 37, and each of them have already played their best baseball, but you can probably get them at bargain prices and any one of them would be an upgrade to the crap we had last year...

Also, I know it would never be considered, but I would trade Porcello for Jake Peavy. Dombrowski would probably never put that on the table, but Peavy is a top 10 pitcher in the league, IMO and he's signed through 2013 at a reasonable amount.

We're not on Peavy's list and his salary is not on Illitch's list.

The big question to me is, "What are they going to do to get people excited about coming to Comerica Park next year?"

The season ticket renewal % has to be abysmal, and DD saying, "We just need to get more out of what we have" doesn't sell tickets.

They need to sign a solid FA pitcher first off. They should have some money with Pudge gone and Edgar's big salary off the books.

Jayson Stark



WHAT THEY NEED: Catcher, shortstop, closer, set-up men, pitchers of all sizes and shapes.

FREE AGENT WHO COULD TOP THEIR LIST: They might not even start shopping until January. But think Brandon Lyon or someone like him.

HOW THEY'LL SHOP: They're not in the mood to bump the payroll north of where it was last year ($138 million). So this is a team in no hurry to plow into free agency. Teams that have talked to the Tigers say they're willing to discuss dealing just about anybody on the roster besides Justin Verlander (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=6341), Miguel Cabrera (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=5544) and Curtis Granderson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=6125). So they'll try to clear some dollars and address needs on the trade market first. Then, when the January free-agent clearance sales kick in after New Year's, they'll see who's left and who's willing to take a one-year deal to pitch, catch or play short. So think names like Lyon, Bob Howry (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=3875), Henry Blanco (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=3701), Adam Everett, etc.

The AL Central is still up for grabs, IMO.


the Tribe are in rebuild, they have tons of young talent, but guys like LaPorta, Francisco, aren't ready to lead them to a division title. Plus you have to think Cliff Lee will come back to earth and Hafner & Victor are anything but a sure bet to regain their former selves after their injury filled '08 campaigns...

The Sox are probably the early favorite since they have the best pitching. But again, can guys like Gavin Floyd & John Danks who had career years duplicate that success?? Not to mention they lose Griffey, Crede, Uribe, Swisher, and Orlando Cabrera...and they may be the only team in the AL who's minor league system is more depleted than ours...


the Twins are the Twins. They're not going to make any huge additions this offseason, but you know they're going to play as if they did. they're only free agents are Punto & Dennys Reyes. other than that, they'll probably be the same...did they overachieve last year??? who knows

and of course the Royals...they've already upgraded at 1B by adding Mike Jacobs, but it came at the cost of their best reliever (Leo Nunez). They're set at closer (Soria) and have 3 good starters (Meche, Bannister, Greinke), but the rest of the pieces haven't fallen together yet...Mike Aviles was a pleasant surprise last year, but his track record suggests it was a fluke. Alex Gordon has been a bust, and Billy Butler still can't hit for power or find a position on the field. They might also look to unload Teahen & DeJesus. I'll be shocked if they contend...


we just can't afford to get off to such a poor start in April. We fell behind so quickly, that it made the rest of the season that much more uncomfortable...

Plus, even with these low-level free agent bullpen arms we may sign (who had better ERA's than any of our relivers), if they can hold leads in one or two run games, we'll be improved already. I think the amnt of 1 or 2 run games we lost last year was mind-blowing. Like to the point that if we would've just won 75% of the games in which we blew a lead in the 7th inning on, we would've won not only the AL Central, but had the best record in the league...

You'd have to think our pen won't be that bad next year.

Right...?

As far as signing a shortstop and a catcher. I think those are secondary issues to address. We have enough offense to win the division if our pitching is decent. Theres already enough thump in this lineup to survive the offensive shortcomings of Dusty Ryan & whoever we sign at short (Eckstein?).

As far as signing a shortstop and a catcher. I think those are secondary issues to address. We have enough offense to win the division if our pitching is decent. Theres already enough thump in this lineup to survive the offensive shortcomings of Dusty Ryan & whoever we sign at short (Eckstein?).

Maybe, but having the offensive shortcomings of Inge at 3B makes an offensively challenged SS not so appealing.

good point...I forgot about him...


CF- Granderson
2B- Polanco
RF- Ordonez
1B- Cabrera
LF- Guillen
DH- Sheffield
3B- Inge
C- Ryan
SS- ???


So basically, our 7/8/9 is offensively retarded, so our only hope is Sheff being 'Sheff' again...I suppose it's possible, but not likely.

This is why trading Ordonez is out of the question.

The list of FA's the Tigers are looking at (VIA Jayson Stark) is disgusting. If that's who we end up signing it's gonna be another long season next year.

Well, as unexciting of names the Tigs are looking at, you gotta admit, the guys Stark named would all be upgrades to what we have now...

Sheff started rounding back into his old form towards the end of the season didn't he?

no

I keep hearing Julio Lugo's name brought up as who Dumbrowski is targeting. Sounds about right as he hit around .260 and had around 260 errors last season.

He'll be just as good as Renteria.

I think he might be a wifebeater too, if memory serves.

Sign him up!

I keep hearing Julio Lugo's name brought up as who Dumbrowski is targeting. Sounds about right as he hit around .260 and had around 260 errors last season.

He'll be just as good as Renteria.

I've also heard Khalil Greene from San Diego, who's a much better defensive SS, but probably a slightly worse hitter...

Then again he did have to play in PetCo, which is probably the most pitcher-friendly park in the league

Closers (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab3pos1)

A nice article on the closer market

From ESPN Insider (let me know if I should move this to a "secret area"


Pirates seek Treanor, trade with Tigers
The Pirates, who have floated the name of shortstop Jack Wilson with several clubs, are trying to acquire catcher Matt Treanor from the Marlins and then trade both players to the Tigers, according to a report on FoxSports.com.

The Tigers are seeking a shortstop to replace departing free agent Edgar Renteria and the website says that Detroit has long had interest in Wilson. The 32-year-old Treanor would likely be used in a backup role.

By the way, that's Misty May's husband. The beaches in Michigan are tough to practice on October through April.

Who would we have to give up for those two?

Who would we have to give up for those two?


Probably somebody like Matt Joyce or Jeff Larish. The incentive for Pittsburgh is to unload Wilson's salary, so they'll gladly take pennies on the dollar as far as player return.

I would welcome Jack Wilson. He's a solid, all-around ballplayer...

Agent denies that Edgar Renteria has a deal with Giants

November 25
Detroit Free Press

"The San Francisco Giants and the agent for Edgar Renteria today denied a report by WFAN-AM in New York that the team has agreed to a two-year contract with the shortstop.

We've talked to a number of clubs, including the Giants, but there's no contract," Barry Meister, one of Renteria's representatives, said in a telephone interview.

Renteria, 33, spent this year with the Tigers and is not expected to return to Detroit. Meister said the Tigers have not spoken with him about Renteria since the end of the season.

The Tigers officially declined their $12-million option on Renteria in late October, which enabled him to file for free agency.

While Tigers officials do not have serious interest in bringing back Renteria for the 2009 season, his status is an important consideration for them. Renteria is a Type A free agent, so the Tigers would receive two early round draft picks if he signs with another team by next Monday.

If Renteria is unsigned as of next Monday, the Tigers could preserve their right to those draft picks by offering him salary arbitration. Team officials might be comfortable doing so if they are certain Renteria will sign elsewhere."

I don't care about the draft picks, just make sure he GTFO.

I don't care about the draft picks, just make sure he GTFO.

:cogent:.

I care about the draft picks.

So do I, but I want him gone. Anything else is a bonus.

YAY!


LOOKING AT A LEFTY? Left-hander Brian Shouse, 40, is a free agent following two of the best years in his career. Since the start of the 2007 season, the sidearmer is 6-2 with a 2.91 ERA in 142 appearances with the Milwaukee Brewers, according to STATS LLC. During that span, he issued only 19 unintentional walks in 99 innings.

Shouse believes the Tigers are among the clubs that have called his agent to express interest. He lives near Peoria, Ill., and said he would "not be picky" about geographic factors in deciding where to play.

"I'm excited that I'm still pitching and getting guys out -- I remember what it's like in the minors," said Shouse, a veteran of 538 minor league appearances. "I would welcome it if the Tigers wanted me."

When Shouse debuted with Pittsburgh in 1993, Jim Leyland was the team's manager. "It seemed like he was a real players' manager," Shouse said. "If you did what you were supposed to do and worked hard, you'd have no problems with anything. ... It would be kind of neat to get reunited and play for him again."

http://www.freep.com/article/20081126/SPORTS02/811260400/1050

At least he's a man.

his ERA would've ranked first on our team last year...

Can I help Renteria pack?

No, but you can shoot him if we sign him.

Or we can get him lessons from Plaxico Burress.

I hope to God we offer Edgar arbitration, I don't think he would accept it if he can get a multi-year deal elsewhere, and it could net us some comp. picks.

I hope to God we offer Edgar arbitration, I don't think he would accept it if he can get a multi-year deal elsewhere, and it could net us some comp. picks.

o rly?

Edgar needs to come back. Last season was one of his worst and no way he has a year like that again. Plus he's a 2 or 3 hitter batting 7th. You don't get great pitches batting 7th.

I'm inclined to bring him back too. I thought it was a good move at the time and we'd get close to a .300 hitter (even if his defense was sketchy). If we let him walk we bought high and sold low. That is, unless he goes lower.

It's official. Tigs declined to offer Edgar arbitration at todays deadline. He's officially gone.

It's safe to assume that after two 1-year stints in Boston & Detroit, Edgar Renteria will never play in the AL again.

Giants still want Rent.

Tigers | St. Pierre invited to Spring Training
Tue, 02 Dec 2008 10:56:39 -0800
Jon Paul Morosi, of the Detroit Free Press, reports Detroit Tigers C Max St. Pierre will be invited to the team's camp in Spring Training next year.
Tigers | Sardinha re-signed
Tue, 02 Dec 2008 10:56:14 -0800
Jon Paul Morosi, of the Detroit Free Press, reports the Detroit Tigers have re-signed C Dane Sardinha. He will be invited to the team's major league camp in Spring Training. Terms of the deal were not disclosed.
Tigers | Interested in Zaun
Tue, 02 Dec 2008 10:55:52 -0800
Jon Paul Morosi, of the Detroit Free Press, reports the Detroit Tigers have some interest in free-agent C Gregg Zaun (Blue Jays), according to a person in the industry.

I thought Gregg Zaun retired in the late 80s.

I thought Gregg Zaun retired in the late 80s.


No shit, didn't he have a 1991 Donross Rated Rookie card playing at 3rd base for the Cards?

Todd Zeile

Tigers | Looking at Everett
Thu, 04 Dec 2008 13:53:24 -0800
The Associated Press reports the Detroit Tigers are looking at free-agent SS Adam Everett (Twins).
Tigers | Might not be able to afford Wilson
Thu, 04 Dec 2008 13:52:57 -0800
The Associated Press reports the Detroit Tigers may not be able to afford the contract of Pittsburgh Pirates SS Jack Wilson unless the Pirates absorb most of his $7.25 million contract for 2009.
Tigers | Interested in Texas' catchers
Thu, 04 Dec 2008 09:53:49 -0800
T.R. Sullivan, of MLB.com, reports the Detroit Tigers are interested in Texas Rangers Cs Gerald Laird, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Taylor Teagarden and Max Ramirez. The Tigers and Rangers have been involved in trade talks for C Gerald Laird, but nothing is close. The Tigers are looking for pitching in return for a catcher. Names that could be included in a potential deal include Ps Luis Marte, Guillermo Moscoso and Alfredo Figaro.

I'm going to be pissed if we sign Adam Everett. Not only was he DFA'ed by the Twins at one point last year, but the only thing he's known for is his glove. And if the whole angle is to sign a guy for his defense, than we might as well start Santiago, because he's twice the hitter Everett is...

Dombrowski obviously is having a hard time putting deals together. Illitch must've chewed his ass out and gave him only $10 dollars to sign free agents.

Yeah, I don't like where this offseason is headed. I'm probably going to bury my head in the sand until Spring...

I can't imagine how many people DIDN'T renew their season tix...

it could be a gloomy April at CoPa.

I'd take everett at 3 mill over wilson at 7 in a heartbeat.

Olneyblog


Folks who know both GM Dave Dombrowski and manager Jim Leyland believe there is serious tension between the two that could manifest itself in some way if the Tigers get off to a poor start in 2009.

I'd take everett at 3 mill over wilson at 7 in a heartbeat.

No way in hell anybody's going to give Everett 3 mill, he'll get a minor league deal or a 1 year deal worth 1 mill at the very most...

Olneyblog


Interesting tidbit. I've never gotten that sense between those two, and it's possible the only basis for Olney writing that is because Leyland said he would've liked to have gotten a 1 yr extension so he's not a lame duck.

When Buster Olney writes something that none of the local gurus have picked up on (Morosi, Henning, Gage), then it's probably not much more than blog fodder.

We seem to have solid local baseball beat writers. I mean, they're no Keith Langlois or anything...

Tigers | Not talking with Garcia
Fri, 05 Dec 2008 18:47:47 -0800
Jason Beck, of MLB.com, reports the Detroit Tigers have not made contact with free-agent SP Freddy Garcia (Tigers) about re-signing him.

Tigers | Expected to meet with Everett
Fri, 05 Dec 2008 13:59:40 -0800
Jason Beck, of MLB.com, reports the Detroit Tigers are expected to meet with free-agent SS Adam Everett (Twins) at the winter meetings next week.
Tigers | Guillen to play in Venezuela
Fri, 05 Dec 2008 13:59:14 -0800
Jason Beck, of MLB.com, reports Detroit Tigers OF Carlos Guillen will begin working on his outfield skills while playing in the Venezuelan Winter League. He is expected to start playing Dec. 15, according to Leder en Deportes.

Tigers | Interested in acquiring Treanor
Fri, 05 Dec 2008 12:17:23 -0800
Jon Paul Morosi, of the Detroit Free Press, reports the Detroit Tigers are interested in trading for Florida Marlins C Matt Treanor.

Granderson will play in the WBC.

For team USA, no less.

The Detroit Tigers announced today the invitation of 13 minor league players to the major league spring training camp, which begins Feb. 13 in Lakeland, Fla.

Included in the group are two prospects drafted last June -- potential bullpen closer Ryan Perry and catcher Alex Avila, the son of Tigers assistant general manager Al Avila.

Players on the 40-man major league roster are automatically invited, but clubs bring in top minor leaguers to provide them a chance to work with major league coaches and players before receiving minor league assignments.

Others invited were pitchers Rudy Darrow, Casey Fien and Jon Kibler, infielders Cale Iorg, Don Kelly, Will Rhymes and Scott Sizemore; catchers Jeff Kunkel, Dane Sardinha and Max St. Pierre; and outfielder Alexis Gomez.

Pitchers and catchers report Feb. 13 to spring training and begin work outs the next day. The full roster reports Feb. 16 and full squad workouts begin Feb. 17.
Think Avila is that good or just lucky his dad is in the front office?

Avila was our 3rd or 4th round pick this past year if I remember correctly. That's pretty high for a catcher.

Iorg is assumed to be our full-time SS by 2010.

Can't be worse than Sardinha.

The Tigers on Wednesday agreed to one-year contracts with relief pitcher Fernando Rodney and outfielder Marcus Thames, reducing their list of arbitration eligibles to five.

No financial terms were announced.

Still eligible are pitchers Justin Verlander, Bobby Seay, Joel Zumaya and Edwin Jackson and catcher Gerald Laird.

According to SI.com, four teams are interested in right-hander Freddy Garcia, who made three starts for the Tigers last September: the Yankees, Mets, Rangers and White Sox.
An industry source confirmed Thursday the Tigers neither expect to re-sign him as a free agent nor have they had any recent contact with him.
Garcia, 32 and a two-time All-Star, was 1-1 with a 4.20 ERA as a Tiger. However, he has been hampered by shoulder tightness this winter.

Tigs have extended offers to both Jason Isringhausen & Brandon Lyon.

If the Tigs can land both, or at least one of these two, then I'll be pleased. While they're not big time free agents, they're better than a Rodney/Zumaya combo, and takes pressure off both of them.

Agreed, they would both be nice additions, but I don't think Izzy can close anymore.

Closing got in his head last year and he was even demoted to AAA IIRC.

Yeah Izzy might not have the mental stability or physical ability to take on the 9th anymore...

But at least he gives us an option.

Fu-Te Ni could be our closer?

Yeah, nothing says new closer like a 5-12 record in the overseas equivalent of Double-A for a defunct team.

Here's the Offseason-to-date outlook for each AL Central team.


ROYALS

ADDED: Coco Crisp, Mike Jacobs, Willie Bloomquist, Kyle Farnsworth, Horacio Ramirez, Doug Waechter, Jordan Parraz (via Rule 5 Draft)

LOST: Mark Grudzielanek, Leo Nunez, Ramon Ramirez


WHITE SOX


ADDED: Wilson Betemit, Jeff Marquez, Jayson Nix, Brent Lillibridge, Bartolo Colon, Dayan Viciedo

LOST: Ken Griffey Jr., Javier Vazquez, Boone Logan, Horacio Ramirez, Orlando Cabrera, Toby Hall, Juan Uribe, Joe Crede


INDIANS

ADDED: Kerry Wood, Carl Pavano, Luis Valbuena, Joe Smith, Mark DeRosa

LOST: Franklin Gutierrez, Sal Fasano, Juan Rincon


TWINS

ADDED: Jason Jones (via Rule 5 Draft)

LOST: Adam Everett, Eddie Guardado, Dennys Reyes


TIGERS

ADDED: Gerald Laird, Matt Treanor, Edwin Jackson, Adam Everett, Brandon Lyon, Kyle Bloom (via Rule 5 Draft), Fu-Te Ni

LOST: Kyle Farnsworth, Casey Fossum, Aquilino Lopez, Gary Glover, Kenny Rogers, Edgar Renteria, Matt Joyce

Losing Joyce and Lopez is NOT good, imo. Joyce has such a sweet swing at the plate. He was really consistent. We might regret that one.

Losing Joyce and Lopez is NOT good, imo. Joyce has such a sweet swing at the plate. He was really consistent. We might regret that one.


I know, it was tough to see him go because you knew the potential was there. But he wasn't going to help us win this year, which is what the main objective is.

Edwin Jackson, for as mediocre as he's been, is going to be a key factor into whether or not we're contenders this year.

It wasn't a popular move, but it had to be done.

Plus, our outfield depth is probably one of our strengths.

Guillen, Granderson, Magglio start
Thames & Raburn can both play OF
Inge can play OF if need-be
We'll have Clete Thomas & Brent Clevlen are in AAA
Wilkin Ramirez, one of our top 5 prospects, is also an OF
Casper Wells, another OF prospect was also added to the 40 man roster

So the depth is there to make up for the loss...

I would say in-division, only the Indians have had a better offseason. Not bad for a team with a closed wallet.

I would say in-division, only the Indians have had a better offseason. Not bad for a team with a closed wallet.


The Indians will be interesting. Injuries killed them last year and they ultimately had to wave the white-flag early by trading Casey Blake & CC Sabathia. But if Victor Martinez, Hafner, Carmona & Westbrook can stay healthy, and Raffy Betancourt has a bounce back year, than they could be dangerous.

I'm still not completely sold on them though.

Cliff Lee isn't going to duplicate his 2008 campaign, and Westbrook isn't supposed to be back until July. So their rotation will have a bunch of mediocre arms like Anthony Reyes, Jeremy Sowers and Scott Lewis for the first few months of the season.

C- Victor Martinez/Kelly Shoppach
1B- Ryan Garko
2B- Mark DeRosa
SS- Asdrubal Cabrera
3B- Jhonny Peralta
LF- Ben Francisco
CF- Grady Sizemore
RF- Shin-Soo Choo
DH- Travis Hafner

Wil, I gotta say, even though you may get a lot of shit here, you are the guy I go to first for my MLB news and analysis.

Apparently they're making cornbread in Tigers flavor this year:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090124/OPINION03/901240434/1129/SPORTS0104

I got about halfway through and realized I was getting way too excited and buying into it way too much.

Kyle Bloom:

http://firstinning.com/players/Kyle-Bloom-a

He's 26 in February and still hasn't made it past AA. Supposedly has great stuff but no control. A decent winter league is probably what got him picked. Walks too many guys. I'm gonna say there's about a .05% chance we keep him.

Although I wonder if they maybe think converting him to the pen can turn his career around.

Yeah, I'm not expecting Bloom to make the 25 man roster either.

I think if he doesn't make the team we have to return him to Pittsburgh.

Guess it's about time to see how the 25 man's shaping up:

Pitchers:

Starters:

Justin Verlander (R) -- Lock
Armando Galarraga (R) -- Lock
Jeremy Bonderman -- (R) Lock if Healthy

These three would seem to be locks. Galarraga will need to prove that Armandomania last year was no fluke and Bonderman will have to be ready for opening day, which is by no means a guarantee no matter what they're saying.


Edwin Jackson (R)
Nate Robertson (L)
Dontrelle Willis (L)

I have no idea how this is going to shake out and this will hopefully be quite a battle in Spring Training. Willis and Robertson's salaries would seemingly give them a leg up but we need to put the best pitchers out there period and can't worry about sunk costs. It may come down to whether they want 2 lefties starting or not, which hurts Jackson's chances. Whoever doesn't make it will probably be destined for long relief.

It's a good problem to have, and seemingly the team is acknowledging that injuries are inevitable and you really need 6-7 solid starters to make it through a full season.

Presumably they'll go with a 12 man staff so that leaves 6 more slots:

Fernando Rodney - Defacto Closer

Zach Miner (R) - He's a valuable guy to have around as he's a passable starter but with the 6 guys discussed above on board I'd like to see how he'll do if they give him a more defined role out of the pen

Brandon Lyon (R) - They didn't give him 4.5 million for nothing so he'll get a chance to close but I'm not sold. He started off on fire in the first half last year but then fell apart, lost his closer job and got even worse, with his ERA ballooning over 8 after the break. That just screams "undisclosed injury". He did finish out the season with 6 straight scoreless appearances so maybe he got something figured out.

Bobby Seay (L) - Was pretty good in the first half but fell apart with the rest of the team down the stretch. Typical lefty bullpen arm.

Joel Zumaya (R) - This one's written in pencil.

That's 11 which leaves one spot up in the air. Depending on how the rotation plays out, they'll probably want another lefty which could give Clay Rapada (L) the inside track.

Other candidates if Zumaya or Bonderman aren't healthy include Freddy Dolsi (R), Mackay McBride (L), Fu Te Ni (L) and the recently signed Scott Williamson (R). If they really like Kyle Bloom, he'll get the nod as the second lefty since they'd otherwise have to offer him back to Pittsburgh who would presumably take him.


That leaves 13 spots for the position players.

Outfield:

RF - Magglio Ordonez
CF - Curtis Granderson
LF - Carlos Guillen
4th - Marcus Thames, who can double as the backup first baseman.
5th - This is where things get interesting with Clete Thomas, Ryan Raburn and Brent Clevlen all taking turns last year. My money's on Raburn. There's a chance they could also only go with 4 and keep an extra infielder but Guillen and Raburn can both fill in at spots there in a pinch so I doubt it.

Infield:

1B - Miguel Cabrera - God I hope he hasn't gotten fatter.
2B - Placido Polanco - His head is large.
3B - Brandon Inge - He finally gets what he wanted and returns to third base. Supposedly he's put on 25 pounds of muscle so hopefully that doesn't hurt his range. If he can hit even just .250 or so, his glove makes him an asset.
SS - Adam Everett - I'm going to assume Everett is healthy and gets the gig from day one. If he is, he's a remarkable fielder who makes hard plays look easy. He won't make Sportscenter much but he could help our team ERA more than you think.
5th - Ramon Santiago will presumably be back again unless Mike Holliman blows everybody away in camp.

DH - Gary Sheffield - Hopefully he's not done yet and keeps his mouth shut for once. I'm not holding my breath on either note. If pitchers start to realize his decline, they'll be throwing him more strikes which means less walks which means he's all but worthless. We'll see.

C - Gerald Laird - He'll be the "starter" but I imagine he'll get about 100-110 games only. This should end up a platoon.
C - Matt Treanor - I can't imagine they would have signed him if he wasn't going to make the team but he's never been all that impressive with the bat. He's worked with Dontrelle before so maybe he can get him back on track. Sorry Motown, but Dusty Ryan's probably going to Toledo. Maybe Zekyl needs a roommate. Or Rekyl (http://wtfdetroit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13974).

It's a good problem to have, and seemingly the team is acknowledging that injuries are inevitable and you really need 6-7 solid starters to make it through a full season.

On second thought, it'd be a much better problem to have if all the options were more reliable but oh well....

Here's how the rest of the divison stacks up...

CLEVELAND INDIANS

C- Victor Martinez
1B- Ryan Garko
2B- Mark DeRosa
SS- Asdrubal Cabrera
3B- Jhonny Peralta
LF- Ben Francisco
CF- Grady Sizemore
RF- Shin-Soo Choo
DH- Travis Hafner

Bench: Kelly Shoppach, David Dellucci, Jamey Carroll, Luis Valbuena

SP- Fausto Carmona
SP- Cliff Lee
SP- Anthony Reyes
SP- Aaron Laffey
SP- Scott Lewis

*Jake Westbrook will begin the year on DL and isn't expected back for the first couple months, and so might Carl Pavano

Bullpen

Jonathan Meloan
Masa Kobayashi
Rafael Betancourt
Joe Smith
Jensen Lewis
Rafael Perez
Kerry Wood


Outlook: They have a ton of pitching depth, lousy starting pitching and the demise of their bullpen is what really did them in last year. Each month they had a different closer, so they definitely addressed their needs. It will be interesting to see if Cliff Lee was for real last year. I have my doubts but if Carmona and go back to his 'old self' they won't need him to be Cy Young.

The lineup has some question marks. Asdrubal Cabrera was brutal last year at the plate, and they're going to move him to SS and move the fat ass Peralta to 3B, a move that should've happened 4 years ago. Sizemore is a freakin stud. He's a lock for 30/30, and could have an outside shot at 40/40. Hafner still can't hit lefties and Victor's health remains a question.


CHICAGO WHITE SOX

C- AJ Pierzynski
1B- Paul Konerko
2B- Wilson Betemit
SS- Alexei Ramirez
3B- Josh Fields
LF- Carlos Quentin
CF- Brian Anderson
RF- Jermaine Dye
DH- Jim Thome

Bench: Dewayne Wise, Jayson Nix, Jerry Owens, (Backup Catcher)

SP- Mark Buehrle
SP- Gavin Floyd
SP- John Danks
SP- Bartolo Colon
SP- Clayton Richard/Jeff Marquez/Aaron Poreda/Lance Broadway

*Jose Contreras will begin the year on the DL

Bullpen

Scott Linebrink
Octavio Dotel
Matt Thornton
Adam Russell
Ehren Wasserman
D.J. Carrasco
Bobby Jenks


Outlook:- Chicago is the team I think will take the biggest step backwards in the AL Central. They're losing alot of key players: Griffey, Cabrera, Vazquez, Uribe, Swisher, amongst others. They didn't really add anybody noteworth to plug up the holes, either. They have a pretty good bullpen but have a lousy 4-5 combination in the roation. They traded Vazquez for nobody that can help them this year.

As far as the lineup goes, there are quite a few question marks. Brian Anderson has never been able to show he can play full-time. After a bit of a breakout year in '07, Josh Fields spent nearly the whole season in AAA where he struggled, now he's penciled in to start at 3B. Carlos Quentin is a question mark because we don't know whether or not what we saw from last year was legit. Konerko has almost become dead weight, his play was awful last year and it got to the point where he was splitting alot of time with Swisher at 1B. They also got Wilson Betemit in the Swisher trade form the Yankees, Betemit has had several opportunites on other clubs (Dodgers, Braves) to be a full-time starter, and each time he failed.


MINNESOTA TWINS

C- Joe Mauer
1B- Justin Morneau
2B- Alexi Casilla
SS- Nick Punto
3B- Brian Buscher or Brendan Harris (possibly Joe Crede if they sign him)
LF- Michael Cuddyer
CF- Carlos Gomez
RF- Denard Span
DH- Jason Kubel

Bench: Delmon Young, Mike Redmond, Harris or Buscher, Matt Tolbert

SP- Francisco Liriano
SP- Nick Blackburn
SP- Scott Baker
SP- Glenn Perkins
SP- Kevin Slowey

Bullpen

Jesse Crain
Matt Guerrier
Jason Jones (Rule 5)
Craig Breslow
Boof Bonser
Joe Nathan

*Pat Neshek is out for the year

Outlook: Easily the most well-coached team in the division. Their uncanny ability to overachieve is something no other franchise can seem to figure out. They just don't make mistakes. Their starters don't walk batters, and you can't put 'em away. Not to mention they seem to always get the lucky bounces of playing in that freakin bubble stadium.

There are a few question marks for the Twins heading into '09. They didn't add anybody via free agency. It's likely they'll still add a middle-of-the road bullpen guy like Eric Gagne before Spring Training gets underway, but nobody that will really make them much better. The rotation is very young, so it will be interesting to see if they improve or take a small step back this year. Liriano still hasn't really regained his 2006 form, and you wonder if he ever will, regardless he's still a very good pitcher but he's got to be the ace of the staff now.

The lineup is pretty much the same as last year. They don't really have a starting spot for Delmon Young, but he'll see plenty of time as they rotate Denard Span in and out of the lineup. They don't have much power in the lineup. Only Morneau & Kubel have legitimate HR power, while the rest are just basehit, hit-for-average players. Cuddyer's coming off an injury-plagued season and Mauer will be coming off some shoulder surgery.

Will they win the division?? Who knows? On paper they shouldn't win more than 75 games, but we've seen this story unfold before. The Twins are notorious for starting the season slow only to somehow be within one or two games of the division lead by mid-August. Ron Gardenhire might be the best manager in baseball for all I know, so I wouldn't put anything past them.


KANSAS CITY ROYALS

C- John Buck
1B- Mike Jacobs
2B- Alberto Callaspo/Mark Teahen
SS- Mike Aviles
3B- Alex Gordon
LF- Jose Guillen
CF- Coco Crisp
RF- David DeJesus
DH- Billy Butler

Bench: Ross Gload, Miguel Olivo, Willie Bloomquist, Callaspo/Teahen, Esteban German

SP- Gil Meche
SP- Zack Greinke
SP- Brian Bannister
SP- Kyle Davies
SP- Luke Hochevar/Robinson Tejeda/Hocario Ramirez

Bullpen

Doug Waechter
Kyle Farnsworth
Jimmy Gobble
Joel Peralta
Joakim Soria
John Bale
Ron Mahay


Outlook: While they may have improved the lineup over the offseason by getting Crisp & Jacobs, they're pitching remains lousy. They have 2 reliable starters in Meche & Greinke, and a pretty damn good closer in Joakim Soria, but the rest of the pitching is suspect to below-average. They traded their top two relievers from last year Ramon Ramirez (71 games, 2.64 ERA, 70 K) and Leo Nunez (45 games, 2.98 ERA) to get both Crisp & Ramirez. As Tigers fans we've seen where trading pitching for hitting gets you, so needless to say those may not have been smart moves for the Royals.

Billy Butler still doesn't have a position, and it seems they don't seem interested in finding him one by trading for Mike Jacobs. He still lacks a HR swing, but eventually it will come around. Alex Gordon started to put things together after the All-Star Break last year, but he's still nowhere near the player people expected him to be as a Evan Longoria type prospect two years ago. They also have Jose Guillen who despite driving in 97 runs last year is still more trouble than he's worth.

They're not a pushover like they've been in years past, and they had our number last year, but I don't consider them to be contenders for the division crown.

Chicago is the team I think will take the biggest step backwards in the AL Central.

Good to hear. The White Sox are one of my two most hated teams (the Steelers being the other team).


Sizemore is a freakin stud.

Rage filled me when I read that.

Rage filled me when I read that.


I know, I hate him too, but he's damn good ballplayer.

What infield positions is Raburn best at? I can't remember if he was a 3rd/SS guy or a 2nd/3rd guy? I thought it was one of the two. If he makes it as an OF, that could play a role in what utility infielder we keep.

What infield positions is Raburn best at? I can't remember if he was a 3rd/SS guy or a 2nd/3rd guy? I thought it was one of the two. If he makes it as an OF, that could play a role in what utility infielder we keep.

He played 2nd in the minors.

Gerald Laird & Matt Treanor - catcher only

Miguel Cabrera- 1B (probably not playing anywhere else this year, maybe a bit of DH)

Placido Polanco- 2B

Adam Everett- SS (has some 2B experience)

Ramon Santiago- SS, 2B, 3B

Ryan Raburn- can play all 3 OF' spots, 2B, 3B

Brandon Inge- 3B, probably will not see any time behind the plate or in the OF

Gary Sheffield- DH, might see some OF time in Inter-league games if he's an offensive asset

Maggs- RF

Granderson- CF

Guillen- LF, I'm not sure whether or not he will see any time anywhere else. I doubt Leyland wants to move him around all that much...

Thames- He could see quite a bit of time at 1B this year if Cabrera gets hurt (knock on wood). He'll play alot of LF, RF and DH as well

Jeff Larish- 3B, 1B...I think he's going to be playing 3B from now in the minors, with Cabrera here for the long-term, it's for Larish's best interest

Detroit Tigers sign ouftielder Timo Perez
by Steve Kornacki
Monday January 26, 2009, 1:03 PM
DETROIT -- Detroit signed outfielder Timo Perez to a minor league contract and invited him to major league spring training. Perez hit .302 with 13 home runs and 63 RBIs last year for Triple-A Toledo.

Seven on the 40-man roster agreed to 2009 contracts: pitchers Kyle Bloom, Alfredo Figaro, Chris Lambert and Zach Simons; catcher Dusty Ryan; infielder Michael Hollimon; and outfielder Casper Wells.


The Tigers have signed 29 of their 40 roster players.

Didn't Timo Perez steal a case of Ensure from Kenny Rogers?

Tim Kurkjian had an article yesterday on ESPN.com about how the AL Central is completely up for grabs...

I'm too lazy to go copy paste it over here, but if you want a good read and a bit of optomism heading into the season, I suggest you read it...

I'm too lazy to go copy paste it over here, but if you want a good read and a bit of optomism heading into the season, I suggest you read it...

I was burned by optimism last year, not again.

I'm all about pessimism for the Tigers this year.

Same here. No hope.

You guys suck. There aren't any expectations this year from the ESPN's of the world, so it should make things more enjoyable.

Plus, we play only 9 home games in April...so the cold weather effect won't be as damning as it was last year...

Remember, we're not competing with the Yankees & Red Sox, we only have to finish ahead of the Twins. Tribe, White Sox...

...And the Royals, who pwned :us: last season.

What hurt fan optomism last year was the 0-7 start. Once that happened it made everybody skeptical for literally the rest of the season.

Glenn and DrRay (I think) were the only two, IIRC, that picked the Tigers to miss the playoffs before the season even started last year. So you've gotta hand it to those two fellas.

yes, I just complimented Glenn.

Hand it to them? Or maybe blame them...

I said if they get this thing going the sky is the limit. I stand by that. And I said, "if their offense shows up...the sky is the limit' or something. And I said if we could get some starting pitching and some help from the pen, there's a chance.

Thats what I remember anyway.

All I know is, there will not be a MoTown sponsored countdown to the 2009 season (at least not a new one).

Big K already pulled the plug (according to Vinny).

And I will not make any OST's.

See, if we all do our part, we can make this happen.

Tigers could trade a starter or two (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090131/SPORTS0104/901310342/1129)

I remember suggesting that most of the roster looked out of shape last year.

Tigers' Jeremy Bonderman, Dontrelle Willis confident they'll bounce back in 2009
by Steve Kornacki
Sunday February 01, 2009, 1:00 AM

LAKELAND, Fla. -- The stretch run of the road back began here.

Not long after Christmas, Jeremy Bonderman and Dontrelle Willis started five-days-a-week workouts and throwing with Detroit Tigers strength coach Javair Gillett and minor league personnel.

"They have great looks in their eyes now," said new Tigers pitching coach Rick Knapp, who has been with them for most Monday and Friday throwing sessions. "Dontrelle is in very good condition. Jeremy is, too."

Bonderman walked out of the weight room at Joker Marchant Stadium on Friday morning, his T-shirt soaked in sweat. He'd been in the house of pain more than one hour, paying the price required in comebacks from dire situations.

His 2008 season was over June 6, the day a blood clot was discovered. The vein carrying blood from his right arm to his heart was plugging. A thrombolysis was required to break up the clot, followed by an angioplasty. Later that month, his first rib was removed to remedy the clot-causing vein pinching and a vein was replaced.

"I wondered if I had pitched my last game in the big leagues and I was scared," said Bonderman, pausing to wipe his brow. "I got a piece of the rib. They wanted me to take it. But after I saw it, I threw it away."

He was instructed to do nothing for months after the surgery in Dallas. Then he took baby steps before rolling into full-blown rehabilitation. On Monday, Bonderman fulfills a goal he has had for nearly eight months.

"I'm going to throw off the mound for the first time," Bonderman said. "I want to get back to work. That's what I want most."

Tigers manager Jim Leyland said Bonderman has regained velocity lost from his fastball. Bonderman had 347 strikeouts in 388 1/3 innings in 2006 and 2007, but fanned just 44 in 71 1/3 innings last season.

"I do not want to use this as an excuse," Bonderman said. "But my arm felt like a piece of wood, and now I have the whipping action back. I'm better -- the way I used to be. I feel the seams on the ball again. The feel went away slowly for so long."

Willis also is in search of what he once had, reaching for the control and stuff that made him a 22-game winner for the Florida Marlins in 2005. He was 0-2 with a 9.38 ERA in eight games for the Tigers, spending most of last season in the minors with a simple mission: Throw strikes.

"The workouts and throwing have been very good," Willis said Friday, after a bullpen session. "My knee (injured in April) feels good again, and everything feels strong."

He said he's enjoyed working with Knapp, the minor league pitching coordinator of the Minnesota Twins for the past 12 years.

"At Minnesota, they take pride in throwing strikes," Willis said. "Rick has come in and told me to be myself, and to attack the strike zone, have fun. He likes the shape I'm in and my strength."

Knapp said he had two concerns with Willis: "I did not want to take his personality away. And he has certain mechanical things that he has to do."

He says adding backup catcher Matt Treanor, a free agent from the Marlins, is important.

"Dontrelle pitched great when they were together," he said.

Willis said he loves working with Treanor, but noted he was pleased with his catchers last year.

"Matt busts his butt and is a student of the game," said Willis, adding that he's also very impressed with new starting catcher Gerald Laird, obtained from the Texas Rangers.

Willis didn't win a game in the majors last year; and Bonderman won only three. Starters Justin Verlander and Nate Robertson combined for 18 wins.

Verlander also came to Lakeland early, along with reliever Joel Zumaya, who is coming off a non-displaced fracture in his right shoulder. Robertson arrives here this weekend after intense workouts in Michigan. Pitchers and catchers officially report Feb. 13.

"We're all focused or we would not be down here this early," said Willis, who will vie with Robertson and Zach Miner for the fifth spot in the starting rotation.

Bonderman and Willis said they've gained strength from one another.

"I want to make sure I'm ready, like all of these guys," Bonderman said. "We were all disappointed in the year we had or didn't have. We have an owner (Mike Ilitch) who put all that money into us. And the fans were so disappointed.

"We have to put together a good year, for ourselves and everybody."

I can see Bonderman being decent next year, he was 3-4 with a decent ERA before he got hurt last year...

Willis is the one I'm not so sure about. Frankly, I'm not even sure he's going to get a rotation spot unless he performs well in spring training, and even then he could be on a short leash...

Verlander got a raise.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/11335202

Also looks like we reached agreements with everyone that was in arbitration.

1 year? Get on that DD

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/tools/med/2009/02/ipt/1235328239.jpg

Gammons Blog


Healthier Tigers eyeing better times in '09

Wednesday, February 25, 2009

LAKELAND, Fla. -- Brandon Inge's point is about expectation and reality.

"Last year, we were being talked about as a World Series team," Inge said of the Detroit Tigers. "There were some expectations that were realistic. We had some weaknesses that got overlooked because of the offseason moves.

"This spring, it is very different. People aren't jumping on our bandwagon; we finished last, we know it. But it's better. We're realistic, and we're getting a lot more work done."

"Hey," Jim Leyland said, "I hope everyone's picking us to finish last again."

Sorry, but that won't happen. If there's one team currently in Florida that might exceed winter expectations, it is the Tigers, who declined from 95 to 88 to 74 wins the past three seasons.

"A lot has to go right," Leyland said. "But we can be pretty good."

Detroit's fall last season could be attributed to three catagories: pitching, defense and injuries.

Justin Verlander, who made a run at the American League Cy Young Award in 2007, got into bad habits in spring training and finished 11-17. Jeremy Bonderman came down with a blood clot in his right arm and made just 12 starts. Nate Robertson finished with a 6.35 ERA. And Dontrelle Willis could not throw a strike. Only rookie Armando Galarraga's 13 wins kept the Detroit starters' ERA as low as 5.03.

Verlander has thrown the ball very well this spring and promises he has his arm slot back. Bonderman believes he will be back, healthy. Willis makes no promises, but he thinks he is on the road to rediscovering his delivery. "Until I do it," Willis said, "I don't think people want to hear me make excuses. Man, I stunk." The Tigers also added 14-game winner Edwin Jackson in an offseason trade with the Rays.

And on the radar is 20-year-old Rick Porcello, who was signed away from the University of North Carolina in August 2007 for more than $8 million. Porcello, a right-handed pitcher, was brought along slowly last season, throwing only 125 innings for Class A Lakeland. But his delivery, stuff and maturity have the coaching staff convined he can win in the AL right now, although the organization might hold off his arrival until June or July.

Porcello has been one of two major revelations thus far. The other has been Joel Zumaya, who is throwing smoke as he did in 2006. Zumaya and Fernando Rodney threw only 63 2/3 innings between them last season. But, healthy as they seem, they give Leyland a potentially dominant setup crew for new closer Brandon Lyon.

As for the defense, everyone realizes the Tigers had problems last season. Pudge Rodriguez and Edgar Renteria played like old players. The Carlos Guillen-Miguel Cabrera flip-flop also did not work right away.

Now they have what Leyland thinks is one of the best defensive left infields with a healthy Adam Everett and Inge, who is one of the premier defenders at third base. For Inge, getting out from behind the plate is really important.

"Catching, I couldn't think about hitting," Inge said. "I couldn't think about anything but the pitchers."

His career stat line shows that when Inge has caught, he has batted .199 with a .590 OPS and 27 homers in 1,149 at-bats. Playing anywhere but catcher, his career line is a .257 average, a .752 OPS and 69 homers in 2,112 at-bats.

Cabrera is making himself a good first baseman ("He may have the best baseball instincts on this team," says Leyland). Second baseman Placido Polanco is very good. Gerald Laird is an upgrade behind the plate, and Curtis Granderson is the centerpiece between Ordonez (right field) and Guillen (left field). They might need a defensive corner backup, but the improvement behind the pitching should make the staff better.

Then there are the injuries. Gary Sheffield batted .225 last season and had struggled for a year and a half with a bad shoulder, which he says is now healthy and strong.

"There's a lot to be excited about here," Verlander said. "But we need to stay under the radar and do it on the field."

Does anybody feel optimistic after reading that?

I'm not allowing myself to be optimistic. The pain was too great last year. I won't be optimistic until they are up on the Yankees in game 4 of the ALCS 10-0 in the 9th with a 3-0 series lead. Then I'll be optimistic.