"Officially" Realized.

This thread is going to look pretty silly in about a week.

Well, we have 10 guys under contract, so 5 roster spots are open.

#29 pick, a MLE and a couple extra bucks to splurge on a pretty unspectacular free agent class...

This thread is going to look pretty silly in about a week.


K u goin tomorrow night?? I'm going, it will be my first playoff game since the LeBron debacle last year...

I'll be there, and I'll be at game 2 of the finals.

I'll be there, and I'll be at game 2 of the finals.

OH SHIT!

If the C's advance, you can bet your ass I'm not going to watch 1 minute of the NBA Finals this year. I wasn't alive for the old Lakers/Celtics rivalry, but I've gotten enough it through other peoples nostalgia, that I feel like I was alive for it, and to be honest, I have no desire to see a fraudulent version of something like that be rekindled.

I know it's all due to my bias, but seriously, the fact that KG will be portrayed as Kevin McHale, and Paul Pierce will be portrayed as Larry Bird, and Kobe as Magic is enough to make me fucking puke.

Please Pistons, just fucking win this series. For me.

First finals series I ever watched was the last Laker/Celtic series.

First finals series I ever watched was the last Laker/Celtic series.

First finals series I remember watching, was the Bulls/Jazz...I want to say it was '98 or something...

TERRORDOME: Bubbles' thread vs Kstat's guarantee.

This thread is going to look pretty silly in about a week.
In "about" a week the finals could be over , so, I really forsee no scenerio within +/- one week that could make this thread silly, other than the fact I started it.

On an offseason side note, do you think the Pistons would match anybody who signs Valter (RFA) to an offer sheet? We are going to need at least 1 big this offseason...and I'd take him over Theo...

I suppose Herrmann still has upside, he just came here at a bad time, if he knew how to play as a swingman rather than a big, it would make him far more valuable (at least to our team), we need a backup SF badly...

First finals series I remember watching, was the Bulls/Jazz...I want to say it was '98 or something...
The first Finals I remember paying any real attention to was in '82 -- Dr. J versus Magic. Fuck, I'm old!

^ I think I've got you beat by more than a decade...maybe I should say you have me beat by more than a decade.

I was watching basketball a bit before then, but not paying particular attention to the Finals. Dr. J was my favorite player, early on.

The first Finals I remember paying any real attention to was in '82 -- Dr. J versus Magic. Fuck, I'm old!

I thought colored wood blocks were really cool and fun.

If the C's advance, you can bet your ass I'm not going to watch 1 minute of the NBA Finals this year. I wasn't alive for the old Lakers/Celtics rivalry, but I've gotten enough it through other peoples nostalgia, that I feel like I was alive for it, and to be honest, I have no desire to see a fraudulent version of something like that be rekindled.

I know it's all due to my bias, but seriously, the fact that KG will be portrayed as Kevin McHale, and Paul Pierce will be portrayed as Larry Bird, and Kobe as Magic is enough to make me fucking puke.

Please Pistons, just fucking win this series. For me.


i agree completely

I will watch the Finals, even if it is Boston vs LA.

I'd definitely like to see them bring back Valter. At the very least, he'd be a decent backup and solid emergency plan. He'd also have a year with everyone here so he'd be more comfortable.

I'm curious what do you guys think the approach to the offseason will be?

Say we lose this series to the Celtics...

Are you guys of the opinion that Joe should try and unload parts of our core for young talent? Or are you of the opinion that Joe should try and trade a piece of our core to obtain better talent?

I'm of the opinion that I don't think this franchise can handle going through what it did during the teal era again. We have a good enough team, as of right now, to get back to the ECF for at least another two seasons, but obvioulsy we need to win a Championship.

I just can't see a guy like Dyess or Chauncey accepting Joe dealing a guy like Rip or Sheed strictly for young talent, picks or unproven commodities. I think that if Joe is going to make a move this summer, it's going to be one that will put us over the top, not one that will take us a step back...

Boston's window for a title isn't going to be that long. They have 3 guys eating their entire cap, they have hardly any picks after those trades, and their entire bench are free agents this year, not to mention it's not like Pierce, KG and Ray are getting any better, if they don't win it this year, they may not win it period...

East is still up for grabs for the next couple years...I think the approach still needs to be "win now" this offseason, regardless of what happens in this series.

This is the first thread I thought of after that shot by Rondo

This thread is going to look pretty silly in about a week.
It would show a lot of respect for you to capitulate here. Just that and everything is back to normal again.

I'll be there, and I'll be at game 2 of the finals.

Have fun in Boston.

It would show a lot of respect for you to capitulate here. Just that and everything is back to normal again.

I wish Kstat was right. But at least I got some Alapca out of this !
[smilie=blaha.gif]COUNT THAT BABY!

Eh, it was my last game ever at the Palace.

If there was ever a time to roll the dice, this was it. I had nothing to lose.

On a side note, even if I ever moved back to the detroit area, I'd never go to another playoff game, ever again.

I'm definitely not renewing my season tickets either. If I go to another Pistons game, it will be becuase I stole, conned, or was given a ticket. I'm done wasting my money.

I'm curious what do you guys think the approach to the offseason will be?

Say we lose this series to the Celtics...

Are you guys of the opinion that Joe should try and unload parts of our core for young talent? Or are you of the opinion that Joe should try and trade a piece of our core to obtain better talent?

I'm of the opinion that I don't think this franchise can handle going through what it did during the teal era again. We have a good enough team, as of right now, to get back to the ECF for at least another two seasons, but obvioulsy we need to win a Championship.

I just can't see a guy like Dyess or Chauncey accepting Joe dealing a guy like Rip or Sheed strictly for young talent, picks or unproven commodities. I think that if Joe is going to make a move this summer, it's going to be one that will put us over the top, not one that will take us a step back...

Boston's window for a title isn't going to be that long. They have 3 guys eating their entire cap, they have hardly any picks after those trades, and their entire bench are free agents this year, not to mention it's not like Pierce, KG and Ray are getting any better, if they don't win it this year, they may not win it period...

East is still up for grabs for the next couple years...I think the approach still needs to be "win now" this offseason, regardless of what happens in this series.

I think he should move two aging pieces for one young piece (that is also good). Trading Billups and Sheed for someone younger but still all star caliber wouldn't start up the teal era again. We'd still have RIP, Tay and that piece, plus a couple young emerging players as well.

The biggest mistake would be to trade RIP or Tay for an older piece that you think might get you closer to the title for a year or two.

Is Joe doing his annual "Hey, we just lost in the ECF again, but there's nothing wrong" state of the franchise presser on Monday?

Has anyone seen any quotes from him yet?

Is Joe doing his annual "Hey, we just got our anal-gang-raped in the ECF again, but there's nothing wrong" state of the franchise presser on Monday?

Has anyone seen any trades from him yet?
Fixed.

:langlois:


Pistons clear out - some, perhaps, for good?

Most of the Pistons showed up late Saturday morning at the team’s practice facility to clean out lockers, an infinitely easier task than cleansing their psyches, still smarting a little after getting drummed out of the conference finals for the third straight year with Friday’s Game 6 loss to the Boston Celtics.

As there was a year ago, when the Pistons lost four straight after taking a 2-0 lead over Cleveland in the conference finals, there will be intense speculation that Joe Dumars will undergo an overhaul of his creation, perhaps one involving one of his core veterans.

“I really don’t know,” said Chauncey Billups, who a year ago on the same day didn’t know if he’d be back with free agency pending. “We’ll see what happens. I enjoy playing here with these guys and I hope it stays the same, but you never know.”

The bottom of the roster is still more likely to change than the top of it, though, with Juan Dixon, Jarvis Hayes, Lindsey Hunter, Theo Ratliff and Walter Herrmann all headed for free agency. Hunter is expected to retire, although he gave a quick “I haven’t even thought about it yet” before pulling out of the parking lot. Ratliff, likewise, is considering retirement and said it would be a decision made in consultation with his family.

Dixon and Hayes are unrestricted free agents who might find greener pastures elsewhere. Of the two, Hayes is more likely to return, though his role was all but eliminated in the playoffs.

“Flip tightened up his bench,” Hayes said. “I just didn’t know it would be this tight. But we’ll see. I still like the situation here.”

Dixon is buried behind not only All-Star veterans Billups and Rip Hamilton, but also rookies Rodney Stuckey and Arron Afflalo.

The Pistons like Herrmann and probably would match whatever NBA offers he might bring back to them, but the real threat with Herrmann is an offer from a European team. With the value of the Euro soaring against the dollar and Herrmann’s production in past international competitions, he might fetch an international offer that would be too rich for the Pistons. Herrmann has already reportedly drawn interest from a team in Spain.

Beyond that, Dumars will prepare for the draft. The Pistons have the 29th and 59th picks. Next year they will have four picks – their own plus second-rounders from Toronto (Carlos Delfino trade) and Minnesota (Ronald Dupree).

The bottom of the first round is viewed increasingly unfavorably by teams – a guaranteed contract to a player similar to someone you could get a few spots later in the second round is one reason; the international prospects that used to be picked there and left overseas to blossom now favor staying overseas because they make several times more than the rookie salary scale will allow a late first-rounder to make in the NBA is another – so it’s possible the Pistons could either trade out of it or use some of their surplus second-rounders in combination with the No. 29 pick to move up if they target someone they like who might project to go in the late teens or early 20s.

The Pistons are likely to look for help in one of two areas in the draft: a young big man to groom in combination with Amir Johnson, Cheikh Samb and Jason Maxiell, since both Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess will be 34 by the time next season tips off; or an athletic small forward to compete for minutes with or behind Tayshaun Prince.

If Dumars explores the trade market, anything is possible. Wallace, because of his unique skill set and favorable contract status – one year left at a figure in keeping with his production – would be easy to move. But because Dumars has been prudent in his signings, no one would be problematic to move if he spots a creative way to make the team better.

Like Billups, the players that chose to speak to reporters Saturday expressed the hope that nothing dramatic would be done.

“The majority of the players will be back here next year,” Stuckey said. “Whatever Joe D does, it’s his decision.”

Stuckey said he, Afflalo, Johnson and Samb all expect to participate with the Pistons’ entry in the Las Vegas Summer League, which runs July 11-20. However many players the Pistons end up taking in the draft are also likely to be on the roster.

Who coaches them remains to be seen – in Las Vegas and beyond. There has been heavy media speculation that Flip Saunders, coming up on the last year of the four-year contract he signed before the 2005-06 season, won’t be back after taking the Pistons to three straight conference finals. Saunders left the practice facility without talking to reporters; following Friday night’s loss, he said he and Dumars would sit down at some point to discuss the future.

Speculation on a successor, if there should be one, has centered on assistant Michael Curry, brought in by Dumars last summer to serve on Saunders’ staff. Curry was a teammate of Dumars’ in the ’90s and it was Dumars who encouraged then-Pistons GM Rick Sund to sign Curry as a free agent in 1999 to help fill the leadership void created by Dumars’ retirement as a player. Curry has served as president of the NBA Players Association and has long been thought to be head coaching material.

Asked Saturday if he felt ready to be an NBA head coach after just one season as an assistant, Curry, who took on a mentoring role as a veteran player, said, “I’ve been on the bench as an assistant 15 years. For me, personally, it was an easy transition (to coaching). Until you (become a head coach), you don’t know how you’ll be judged or how you’ll grade out.”

Some of the questions facing Dumars will be answered even before the June 26 draft. Then comes the start of free agency July 1. Thanks to the December trade of Nazr Mohammed that had favorable salary-cap implications, the Pistons can and likely will use some or all of their mid-level exception to pursue a veteran free agent or two. With many teams pressed tight against or over the luxury-tax threshhold, the market should again be favorable for teams in a buying mode. And somewhere in all of that, Dumars will consider trade possibilities – with a greater likelihood than years past, perhaps, that a veteran instrumental to the six straight conference finals appearances will be on the table.

Pistons president Joe Dumars' to-do list: Trade away Rasheed? Fire Flip?

Older Pistons not hungry like in 2004; plenty of wins, not big ones for coach

BY MITCH ALBOM • FREE PRESS COLUMNIST • June 2, 2008

Don't kick 'em when they're down. There's no need. The Pistons know they're finished. Finished for the season. Finished as a concept. When Rasheed Wallace told the media around his locker Friday night, "That's the end, man," he wasn't talking about a movie.

He was talking about all of it, this whole long and crazy Pistons ride, which promised so much, delivered less, but still -- and let's not forget this -- provided some amazing, tough, winning basketball, and gave Detroit six good springs, six springs where hope jumped eternal, and one where it slid all the way down the rainbow and landed in a pot of gold.

That's nothing to dump on. You want an alternative? Move to Memphis. Ask how the fans enjoy their May and June basketball.

There is no reason to throw the entire Pistons franchise under a bus and run the wheels back and forth over it.

Say thank-you. Say good effort.

Then say good-bye.

Begin, maybe, with Wallace. Yes, it's true, the Pistons only became champions when he arrived. Without him, they don't have the one ring they flaunt. But from that winning moment, Rasheed drove the bus, and this team carried shades of his personality -- good and bad. It carried a swagger (good), an arrogance (bad), an unwavering belief in itself (good), and a shut-up-we-know-what-we're-doing approach that made it difficult to coach (bad).

Well, swagger now seems silly. Arrogance, laughable. The ridiculously over-the-top pregame ritual the Pistons perform, with Rasheed dancing in the middle of a circle, looks, in retrospect, pathetic. Even the Detroit players, following the collapse against Boston, seemed to suggest they no longer believed in their kryptonite. Chauncey Billups told the media the Celtics were a better team, said they were "more focused" -- something you used to say about the Pistons. Antonio McDyess told the media his team blew its chances and let the fans down again.

Wallace, for his part, was last seen by the national audience throwing a towel into a TV lens and saying "get that (bleeping) camera out of my face."

Not exactly heroic stuff.

But that's what you get when, for the third straight season, you are bounced in Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals and for the third straight season, it's a different team that does it. That gets old. What's new, however, is that, for the first time, Rasheed looked like an aging hot rod that needed a tune-up.

He's the catalyst of this team, but the catalyst went 2-for-12 in the season-closer, had four rebounds in the game before that, and his final quarter Friday was almost sad. Foul trouble. Had a shot blocked. Had a ball stolen. Clanked his last, desperate three-point heave of the season.

That's the end, man.

What to do about 'Sheed?
The problem with Wallace -- the big one, anyhow -- is that he often has been Joe Dumars' best player. When he's digging in, playing defense, hitting those turnaround jumpers, executing fundamental basketball the way few know how, he is hard to match. And he's big. Guys 6-feet-11 with those skills are nearly impossible to find.

Dumars was not upset with Wallace last season when he exited Game 6 against Cleveland with a tirade against the refs. That game was lost anyhow. And Wallace had been the only consistently good Piston all series.

But it was a different Wallace who left the Palace floor Friday night, muted, tepid, totally outplayed by Boston's big men, Kevin Garnett and young Kendrick Perkins.

Things run their course. The fans are weary of The Rasheed Show, the media are weary of it, too, but most significantly, Wallace, who will be 34 next season, has one year left on his contract, which makes this the perfect time to trade him and the worst time to keep him, if you don't want him around long-term.

I suspect Dumars will have a heart-to-heart with Wallace and gauge whether he is committed to winning basketball for three or four more years. Perhaps deep down, Rasheed knows his time in Detroit has passed like a sunset. I think it has. He's a smart guy. He deserves to be thanked.

But you thank guys when you let them go, too.

What to do with the others?
Not that trading him would be easy. Or that Dumars, as president of basketball operations, will surely do it. But he can't stand pat and expect to win -- and Joe is not one to keep coming back to a wall and knocking his head against it. And if Wallace goes, the rest of the starters is a toss-up. It all depends on who is acquired in return. You could make a case that Billups, good as he was in Game 6, is expendable with the speedy development of young Rodney Stuckey.

You could make a case that Richard Hamilton, as machine-like as he is, may not work on a team that isn't constructed to set him screens all the time.

You could say that Tayshaun Prince, a great body, a great talent, has nonetheless come up small in several key series moments now, and maybe you move him.

Who knows? The rules have changed in the NBA since the Pistons' clamp-down defense won the championship in 2004. And the fact is, you need players who can create their own shots. Slash and drive to the hoop. Draw a foul. Every team the Pistons lost to had players like that. Only Billups really did it for Detroit, and his age and injury slowed him in that area this year.

Why do you think Stuckey seemed like such a breath of fresh air? Why do you think you kept hearing the word "aggressive"? That's how you get points in this league in the playoffs. You can't jump-shoot your way to a title. Ask Utah. Ask Phoenix. Or now ask Detroit. Relying on three-pointers to bail you out is a dangerous and undependable habit. The Pistons will be haunted by Rasheed, Chauncey and Tayshaun all missing three-point attempts as the minutes ticked away on their season Friday night.

So Dumars has a real challenge on his hands, because he was so good at constructing this model, where every starter played a role, that deconstructing it becomes surgery. It is folly to sit here today and say "this guy should go" and try to Rubik's Cube the new version of the Pistons. All anyone can clearly say is that they need to get faster, more aggressive, a little younger in their starters -- and if Wallace goes, and McDyess retires or diminishes, they need to find new bigs.

That's no small task.

But retooling never is.

What to do with the coach?
As for Flip Saunders? Well, remember he was a scramble hire to begin with. Dumars was told Larry Brown had to go, right away, it didn't matter who was out there to replace him. Had it been up to Joe, Brown likely would have coached one more season, and a behind-the-scenes search for a replacement would have been given more thought and care.

Flip was the best available at the time. He fit the "manager" profile. He was never going to light a bonfire under these guys, but at the time, coming off an NBA Finals in 2005, they didn't seem to need it.

Flip won a lot of games. He got his teams to three straight Eastern Conference finals. He has been a good coach, if not a stellar one, and he's a decent man who has faced the fire. If he now faces a heave-ho, it's not because he doesn't know how to do his job. It's just because, as Chuck Daly always said, after a while, they just stop listening to you.

It was telling to watch those ESPN in-the-locker-room scenes before Friday's game. While Doc Rivers was telling his Celtics, "I don't need to trick you to fire you up. ... We're the better team," Flip, meanwhile, was caught imploring his guys to execute, and if they did that, "we're as good an executing team as (anybody) in the league."

Even he didn't seem to believe Detroit was superior.

He was right.

What about the playoffs?
But let's remember a few things. The Celtics were better than the Pistons -- and everyone else -- in the regular season. And in the end they were better in the playoffs. It is not a shame to lose to this Boston group -- the ultimate in single-season front-office rebuilds. Then again, this wouldn't be the Pistons if there weren't some curiosities about it.

For example: The Celtics needed seven games to edge past lowly Atlanta and seven games to squeak past Cleveland, yet they beat Detroit in six, on Detroit's home floor.

On the other hand, nobody could win in Boston this postseason until the Pistons did it on their second try.

On the other hand, Boston couldn't beat the Hawks or the Cavaliers a single time on the road. Yet they won two games at the Palace.

You see where this is going. It's the same old same old. Pistons lift up, Pistons let down. And ultimately, Pistons perplex.

From where I sit, the difference between these Pistons and the three teams that have passed them three straight years now is this:

Hunger.

Miami. Cleveland. Boston. All played with a fire and passion that the Pistons, in crunch time, seemed to lack. Those teams got it from their stars (Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, Paul Pierce) as well as role players (remember Daniel Gibson's three-pointers? Perkins' career night in Game 5?). You get that effort when the entire team is laser-focused and saliva-dripping for a title.

The Pistons were that way once. In 2004. They were castoffs then, players nobody else wanted, guys who had been told, "You're OK, but you're expendable." They melded that abandoned puppy spirit into a powerful force, and they stomped through the starlit Los Angeles Lakers for a championship, surprising everyone by winning in a quick five games, remember?

That was hunger. More recently, the Pistons give away minutes, quarters and games to a complacent attitude. This last series likely was not lost Friday night but in Game 3, when the Pistons had the Celtics down and handed away a blowout at the Palace. A starving team wouldn't do that.

These Pistons talk hungry, but, at times, play fat.

And that won't win you anything.

What about the past?
So say good-bye for now, and, as currently constructed, for good. This Detroit cast would not win a title next year any more than it did this year. All it would be is a year older -- a team with one starter under 30 (and that's Prince, who is 28). The 2008-09 campaign, meanwhile, could again see these Celtics as a powerhouse, could see LeBron on a warpath in Cleveland, could see Orlando and Toronto improve, and who knows what out of Chicago, with good young talent, the No. 1 pick and Doug Collins in charge.

Things change, and the Pistons must, too. Dumars is good at what he does. He has managed to restock a young core of talent with late picks. He deserves time to figure his next moves.

Meanwhile, we should acknowledge that is not akin to failure. Remember, there has been a lot of noise in the Palace the past six years, a lot of Thunderstix late into May, even when the hockey team disappointed and the baseball team was lousy. The last three teams to keep Detroit from a title are also home right now, and none, except the San Antonio Spurs, can point to as consistent a record of winning in the playoffs over the past six years as Detroit.

Don't kick them when they're down. Give them a backslap. Let them exit with dignity. Thank them for giving us what we want out of sports -- excitement, drama, a huge dose of success.

And then roll up your sleeves, Joe.

Because this game never sleeps.

Mitch probably wrote this a month ago or so.

Thanks for FUCKING BOLDING.

Wobb Parker


Dumars cannot stand pat with Pistons this time

It shouldn't come as surprise, but no one in Pistonland is safe.

Not coach Flip Saunders and especially not his players. For sure, there will be fallout from the Pistons' third straight disappointing loss in the Eastern Conference finals. On Friday, the Pistons lost the best-of-seven series to the Boston Celtics, 4-2.

It was the third straight time these Pistons knocked on the NBA Finals' door and failed to enter.

In previous years, however, the thinking was that there was no need to panic or blow up a successful team that simply fell short at the end. That was cool the first two times, but it's hard to imagine that this will fly again.

When you don't win, changes come. It's pretty simple in professional sports these days.

Pistons president Joe Dumars -- just as competitive in his general manager position as he was as a player -- wasn't available for comment Sunday. But you can be sure that he'll be putting a plan together to turn his team around and get them back to championship caliber.

Core could change
While coaches have come and gone in the Dumars Era -- he has had four in eight years -- Dumars has been extremely loyal to his core players.

In fact, Dumars still has four of his five starters from the 2004 championship team. The lone missing player is Ben Wallace, who left to sign a megabucks, free-agent contract.

You get the feeling that Dumars will, indeed, break up the core group this time around. There's a chance that one, maybe two pieces, will be different in the starting lineup.

Many expect one of those players not back next season is forward Rasheed Wallace. What a difference a year makes. After Wallace blew up in the fourth quarter of Game 6 in the conference finals against Cleveland last season -- he was ejected -- many fans cried for the Pistons to get rid of him because of his antics.

But Dumars made it clear that Wallace wasn't going anywhere and that he stood firmly behind Wallace, the NBA's biggest lightning rod. But this time around, you get the sense that it just might be time for Wallace to move on.

He came here and did what he was supposed to -- help the Pistons win a championship. At this point, you wonder if that same focus is still around. The crack in the armor came after Game 5 -- a loss in Boston -- when some of Wallace's teammates criticized him publicly about hugging Celtics forward Kevin Garnett after the loss.

Backcourt could change
It also didn't help that Wallace had his worst game of the season in Game 6, shooting 2-for-12 from the floor, including 0-for-6 from the 3-point line. It gave all the Wallace-haters more fuel for why he should have played his last game in Motown.

Then there's a possibility that it's time to break up the All-Star backcourt of Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton. While the Pistons lost Game 6, it wasn't their fault. Both came to play and did their share in trying to force a Game 7.

Breaking them up, though, wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Sometimes change is good.

I have no idea where to post this since we seem to have a lot of threads about what the Pistons should do next, but here's my thoughts as of right now (again, just some ideas running through my head):

I think what we need is front court help more than anything. If Chauncey stays, it's not the end of the world for me. I don't know if we can find a big man either through trade or free agency but I would want one whom you can dump the ball to for easy buckets at least 10 times a game. That's what so bad about this Pistons team, unless Sheed was feeling it, they had no way at all to ever get an easy 2. They always had to work hard for baskets and those all come from jump shots.

I'd also love to find another big man that can patrol the paint more and actually rebound. I think if we had big men like that, Chauncey would be able to just general more than create, he would be covered better when the smaller, faster guards run right by him and he wouldn't be such a liability come playoff time.

Wobb Parker

skip

What to do with the coach?
As for Flip Saunders? Well, remember he was a scramble hire to begin with. Dumars was told Larry Brown had to go, right away, it didn't matter who was out there to replace him. Had it been up to Joe, Brown likely would have coached one more season, and a behind-the-scenes search for a replacement would have been given more thought and care.

This is wrong. Flip was passing up jobs waiting on the Piston gig. It wasn't a last second scramble.

It was a scramble from the Pistons end.

Flip wasn't in any rush since he was gonna get paid for another couple seasons by Minny. :)

That's how I remember it too. And it wasn't that Larry had to go right away, it was something that started in the playoffs, especially with the whole Cleveland thing.

It was a scramble in relative terms, especially since you had a playoffs going into mid-June and you really want to know who your coach is come draft-time.

Why are you defending the semantics of this MXY? Albom paints it as though Brown up and quit without notice one day and Dumars just grabbed the first guy available (like the Nazr pick up which was a real scrambel). Sure he had to replace Brown earlier than he had expected, but there were Vessey columns and the like out during the whole mess saying that Dumars targeted Flip and Flip was only waiting Brown out.

There were talks about Nazr and Przybilla weeks beforehand too. I agree that was more of a scramble than LB and Flip, but June was already a scramble to begin with between the Finals and deadlines. Dumars has more time now than he's had in a long while.

Its June now.

'Sheed remaining tight-lipped about his future in Detroit

BY VINCE ELLIS • FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITER • June 4, 2008

While news that Pistons president Joe Dumars was looking for his fifth head coach cast a cloud over the organization, the mood was light on Detroit's west side.

Pistons forward Rasheed Wallace, fashionably late because of his son's graduation from fifth grade, appeared at the SNYX Sneaker Studio for the unveiling of his new, limited-edition Nike Air Force 1 basketball shoe.

Sales were brisk at the store owned by onetime NBA All-Star and Detroit Northern alum Derrick Coleman, and despite criticism from the media and fans over the ending to the Pistons' season, Wallace was a hit with students and sneaker junkies who turned out to snap up the $225 shoe.

Wallace, who refused to address his future with Pistons, apologized for being late before sitting down for a question-and-answer session moderated by espn.com columnist Scoop Jackson.

And there were no bombshells there.

He said it was tough sitting at home with the NBA Finals set to start Thursday.

He said his biggest weakness was his "big mouth."

And he didn't sound like somebody who wanted to leave Detroit, as he talked about how much he loved his chemistry with teammates Richard Hamilton and Chauncey Billups.

He ended by taking some questions from the students, then signed autographs and left after hanging around for about an hour.

For those interested in the shoe, it comes in several color combinations. Wallace bragged about his own personal Carolina blue shoe.

You could make a case that Richard Hamilton, as machine-like as he is, may not work on a team that isn't constructed to set him screens all the time.
What team doesnt use screens though? Most guys dont shoot off of them, but most teams run screens. I think Rip being a system guard is bull.

Why don't we just let him come off the books after next year and look to sign a really good FA after next year with his salary cap space?

Its going to take more than an offseason to rebuild this team. It would nice to have Sheeds salary in cap space to sign a FA to add the final piece.

He prolly won't yeild much in return in a trade, unless its at next years trade deadline.

We could trade him for another expiring?

If Arenas doesn't decline his option, we could trade him for Rasheed straight up, and then look to trade Chauncey:
Arenas/Stuckey
Hamilton/Afflalo
Prince
McDyess/Johnson
Whatever Chauncey gets/Maxiell

Fuck Arenas, yea I said it. Fuck him royally. I dont want that prick on our roster. He does more talking off the court than playing on it. He also didnt respond well to the tougher coaching of Eddie Jordan, so i dont see him responding well to Michael Curry choking the life out of him.

I think its no accident that Joe D said the FA market was dry this year fully knowing Arenas is scheduled to be in it probably(its almost a given he opts out).

I'm not a big fan of Arenas either, the guy falls in love with his jumper way too often and even moreso on nights when it's not falling because he thinks it's going to come, he thinks he's a can't miss, bonafied super star, when in reality he's a chucker...

when you shoot 40 shots a game, odds are 8 of them will go in, Gilbert's made a career out of that

I'm not a big fan of Arenas either, the guy falls in love with his jumper way too often and even moreso on nights when it's not falling because he thinks it's going to come, he thinks he's a can't miss, bonafied super star, when in reality he's a chucker...

when you shoot 40 shots a game, odds are 8 of them will go in, Gilbert's made a career out of that

We actually see eye to eye here. I don't like Arenas either.

I don't think Joe D concerns himself with MAX type free agents.
Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, and Wade could all be available to the highest bidder this summer, and we wouldn't be it. The free agent class of MLE-level players and lower would still be weak in Joe's eyes.

and I'd rather have a player that gave it his all every game than one that didn't, especially when the former is a greater talent.
I never liked Sheed as a person, either, but that didn't stop Joe from taking him on. "Cut the check"? You don't think Dumars had read up on his idiotic soundbytes before he traded for him?

Please keep hairy anuses off our team, Joe!

Why don't we just let him come off the books after next year and look to sign a really good FA after next year with his salary cap space?

Its going to take more than an offseason to rebuild this team. It would nice to have Sheeds salary in cap space to sign a FA to add the final piece.

He prolly won't yeild much in return in a trade, unless its at next years trade deadline.

I think Joe removed that option with his presser comments.

If he were to keep Sheed, the first time he fucks up it would be a PR nightmare, "Why didn't they get rid of him when they had the chance?"

With the amount of attention that has been brought to this now, I think Sheed's next blow up is going to absolutely kill any trade value that he has (as a player, that contract is still valuable). So in that way, I think he's a ticking time bomb.

Gotta cut bait now, IMO.

I think Joe removed that option with his presser comments.

If he were to keep Sheed, the first time he fucks up it would be a PR nightmare, "Why didn't they get rid of him when they had the chance?"

With the amount of attention that has been brought to this now, I think Sheed's next blow up is going to absolutely kill any trade value that he has (as a player, that contract is still valuable). So in that way, I think he's a ticking time bomb.

Gotta cut bait now, IMO.
:cogent:

I think Joe removed that option with his presser comments.

If he were to keep Sheed, the first time he fucks up it would be a PR nightmare, "Why didn't they get rid of him when they had the chance?"

With the amount of attention that has been brought to this now, I think Sheed's next blow up is going to absolutely kill any trade value that he has (as a player, that contract is still valuable). So in that way, I think he's a ticking time bomb.

Gotta cut bait now, IMO.
Maybe its already happened, because i heard this same story last year. I personally think sheed's relationship with the coach is a direct relation to his mushroom cloud possibility. If he has value or none, i doubt any blow up will have a hand in his value at this point. We were out of the cleveland game and not doing much to change that. The boston game was heated, but he didnt get a tech, nor was the rest of the team poised at all in that game. besides those his blow ups have not bothered me much. Maybe because i can relate to 70 percent of them, his performance But if we can't get a center worth a damn, then ship him to charlotte (where LB would be happy as would sheed), then they'll probably be the gritty playoff team we wanted.

I think fans of any team start thinking their guys are shit as soon as they know they are being shopped and forget that the GMs of this Association are completely in love with things like talent and size for the most part and give terrible players like Kwame Brown endless chances before finally giving up.

Remember when this team sucked and Joe was able to ship of guys like Buechler, Vaught, Montross, and Cleaves for usable resources? Some of us have been waiting a year or more for Dumars to get back to doing what he's best at, don't start getting all pessimistic about what he has to work with.

I don't think Sheed's value is shit, I just think that Joe would have a hard time answering the critics if he holds onto him too long, especially after that presser. His own words will fly right back at him.

If he keeps him into next season and Sheed cracks, causing Joe to move him mid-season, everyone will assume that he could have gotten more value this summer, which would probably be true, IMO.

Ok, lots of folks I have talked to said otherwise, that the deadline would be the best time to swap him, because more teams with talent are looking to move salary. But history is a mixed bag so far as that's concerned.

no matter how good or clutch gilbert may be offensively, fuck that shit haha

dont need a guy who takes 20 shots/4 turnovers a game.

i dont think joe's gonna want that either

Sheed for Amare seems really logical, IMO. He's the kind of guy we want -- attacks the basket, explosive, good rebounder and defender, won't float at the three point line.

Also, consider that Kerr probably wants to fortify his defense, making Sheed a desirable player to have.

Get on the phone, Joe!

If Kerr trades Amare for Sheed, he's gone within 2 years.

Sheed for Amare seems really logical, IMO. He's the kind of guy we want -- attacks the basket, explosive, good rebounder and defender, won't float at the three point line.



I dunno, he said he wanted to work on his 3 point shot...

Imagine ...

... Stuckey throwing lobs to Amare...

... Amir and Amare running the wings on the break...

I think it was kerr that said Amare had a decent 3point shot...and he has a good enough mid range jumper..oh god

Amares not a good defender Atticus, not sure where you got that scouting gem from...

but still I'd take him for Sheed

Amares not a good defender Atticus, not sure where you got that scouting gem from...

but still I'd take him for Sheed

hes a horrible defender..might look like an average defender because of his blocking but granted id take him for sheed too

i have a hard time imagining phoenix would trade a young stud like him (when shaq and nash are already rapidly aging) for sheed who is in the last year of his deal.

if it happens, i would be ecstatic and kerr would officially win the 'worst executive EVER' award.

stoudemire goes no where. I'll believe that only when i see it period.

Amare had been somewhat better defensively until the latest round of injuries -- not "good", but at least keeping TD somewhat honest.

The only reason they'd trade Amare, is if Kerr realizes he needs to commit to the defensive side of the ball. The Steve Nash era isn't going to last much longer, you need a title now, even though Amare is a better player than Sheed, they would be better off with Sheed since he can actually guard another teams PF or Center, they thought they'd get that with Shaq...but instead they got a first round exit...

It'd be another risky deal for Kerr, but I think one he needs to make if he wants to win a title before Nash, Grant & Shaq move on...if not for Sheed, than a guy like Camby...

I can't believe he balked on a KG for Amare swap last year, Phoenix would be playing tonight if he did that...he'd have KG, Marion, Nash, Grant, Raja, Barbosa, I mean damn, they'd be loaded, even with Marcus Banks contract

Amare would make a wonderful fit here, but in Phoenix he's not the answer

Here is my new plan:

Trade Sheed/RIP/#29 for Amare/Barbosa/#15

Trade Max for a mid first rounder (Portland? Toronto? Washington?)

Draft McGee at #15, Rush/Walker/Batum with pick from Max.

Bring back Dixon and Hermann with the MLE.

PG Billups/Stuckey/Dixon
SG Barbosa/Stuckey/Max pick
SF Tay/Max pick/Herrmann
PF Dyess/Amir/Herrmann
C Amare/McGee/Samb

That team would be exciting as hell to watch.

I'll sign off on that one, Chris.

Maybe sign Flip Murray instead of Dixon?

Ok, no?

Alright, I still like it.

Also, you forgot Afflalo.

Also, you forgot Afflalo.

Good call. I might let Dixon go then and sign a vet backup big since I think Samb will stay in the D for another year.

flip murray is a bitch, not a very nice person

Good call. I might let Dixon go then and sign a vet backup big since I think Samb will stay in the D for another year.
Why? I think he'd be about as good as Ratliff is these days, and I don't think we'll get a worthwhile vet backup big that's considerably better than Ratliff.

flip murray is a bitch, not a very nice person

Well, I'd be a bitch too if my house was robbed and someone asked me about it.

and if I fucking suck.

Why? I think he'd be about as good as Ratliff is these days, and I don't think we'll get a worthwhile vet backup big that's considerably better than Ratliff.

He probably is as good as Ratliff. Porcello is probably as good as Bobby Seay too. Never the less they both have some things to learn and need time in the minors to develop them. Worst thing for Samb is to develop him is to sit on the bench all the time and never get any work. We have a hard enough time finding Amir any PT as it is.

Here is my new plan:

Trade Sheed/RIP/#29 for Amare/Barbosa/#15

Trade Max for a mid first rounder (Portland? Toronto? Washington?)

Draft McGee at #15, Rush/Walker/Batum with pick from Max.

Bring back Hermann with the MLE.

PG Billups/Stuckey/Barbosa
SG Barbosa/Stuckey/Afflalo/Max pick
SF Tay/Max pick/Herrmann
PF Dyess/Amir/Herrmann
C Amare/McGee/Samb
Fixed

I'd rather draft DeAndre Jordan than JaVale McGee...

My plan for the offseason:

Trade Billups + Max + #29 + Minnies #1 for Brand

Sign Fabio, Quinton Ross and Beno Udrih with MLE and BAE


Sheed/Dyess/Samb
Brand/Dyess/Amir
Prince/Fabio/Ross
Rip/Afflalo
Stuckey/Udrih

Beno's going to get paid.

My only memory of Beno was him really sucking in the 2005 finals. Has he gotten better?

My only memory of Beno was him really sucking in the 2005 finals. Has he gotten better?

I don't know if he got better or finally just got a chance to play.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/beno_udrih/index.html

How much will get though? I wouldn't assume much more than the MLE...

And what does everyone value Ross at? His defence would be nice to have, even if it means we lack scoring off the bench.

I thought you were implying that you'd be able to get Beno for the BAE, which I don't think will be the case.

The MLE might do it, but the Kings will most likely give him that, too.

Geoff Petrie isn't that much of an idiot, Udrih will get a "Matt Carroll" deal

Beno's not leaving Sacto. Not even if we give him our full MLE. Not unless some team is stupid enough to give him more than the MLE.

And also we don't have a Minny #1. We have their second rounder.

Don't trade Maxiell!

I am really hoping he doesn't get thrown in as filler in a trade OR traded for a pick. Why trade a known commodity unless you know the guy you want will be there?

After Stuckey and Dice, Max is the last Piston I want to see go. Of course, thats my inner fan talking, not my inner GM. Hell, in that trade scenario, don't even get new backup for Tay. Just alternate three guard lineups with a few three big man, zone lineups and get Stuckey, Max, Amir, and AA a little extra time.

That said, I do like the trade to Phoenix, but does Kerr really want to bet his job on Sheed? That's the kind of trade that requires owner approval, Marion then Amare and Barbosa?

I'd trade Max if a Sheed trade brings us a defensive oriented big (like Camby). If we have an offensive minded big (say Brand or something) come here, then Max may compliment him well.

I just don't want Max to start, I love his effort, but he gets exposed when he plays more than 20 minutes...

I don't question his heart and effort, but he's simply too small to be a 40 mpg, PF...

I don't question Maxiell's heart. I question his IQ.

Agreed, I'd prefer to keep him and send him out there 20 minutes a night off the bench to put up offense and hustle plays.

I just don't ever want him in a position where he has to make crucial decisions, because he almost always makes the wrong one.

And also we don't have a Minny #1. We have their second rounder.
Yeah I meant that...


Don't trade Maxiell!
Aside from him, the only young good prospects we have are Amir and Stuckey - and I really don't want to see them go cheaply, if at all.
If teams are giving away their best player, they are going to need something other than 1 expiring contract in return, or an aging PG.

j-max has made mistakes, sure. but i don't think his basketball IQ is bad. he's still developing and i've seen him improve his decision making a lot. i've also seen 'stars' like sheed, rip, and billups have complete mental lapses too and make stupid decisions.

he's not larry bird out there (high b-ball IQ) but i don't feel he's a liability with regards to that.

that being said, i agree that he gets worn down with more than 30 minutes out there. i'm hoping we see him play somewhere in the 25-28 min. range and for amir to pick up some of those minutes too. obviously it depends who else is brought in.

i'm not necessarily opposed to starting maxiell though- he often sets the tone when he starts and seems to fuel our other starters from the tipoff. we can still limit his minutes down the stretch somewhat. but i am not against him starting.

If Elton Brand opts out, What are the odds of him getting maxed out coming off an injury? I'd love to sign him, but dont know how likely it is.

on the maxiell baskeball iq thing, i think he's fine mentally. You dont have to tell him to work hard and he's improved his game every year. He's also played much smarter on offense. But if Joe wants him out, then so be it. I can only hope he has an idea of the structure of this team in his mind.

If Elton Brand opts out, What are the odds of him getting maxed out coming off an injury? I'd love to sign him, but dont know how likely it is.
Impossible to get him for the MLE, especially with our front court depth (why wouldn't he pick Houston, Boston or some other place with more minutes for him?). Even with the injuries he'll get 10 mil+ somewhere. You'd have to do a S&T with the Clippers for Billups and a big I would think. They'd also have to agree to it, and Brand would have to be on board.

yeah j-max is one of the guys we will build around, not trade. his attitude, toughness, work ethic, and high energy play is exactly what joe is trying to shape the entire team to be. i can't see him being moved.

he has vastly improved his game in his short time in the league and while he still has some limitations, he also has a lot of value as a solid role player. he's not technically 'untouchable' but i think he is of far greater value to us than he would be to other teams. so i don't see him going anywhere.

I'm in no rush to see Maxiell traded but you're stretching it to say he's one of the guys we are building around. No thanks on shooting him up the value ladder that far.

He's not so much one of the players we should be building around as one of the personalities we should be building around.

he's a kid who gives 100% all the time and has an ever improving offensive game. will he ever be a superstar? no. but he is exactly what detroit basketball is all about.

he is extremely valuable TO US if not other teams. he's hardly a franchise player by any means, but he is a big player for us now and can be a pretty big part of our future. so in that regard, i do believe he's a guy who will be part of the core players we build around. not THE core guy. no way. but ONE OF them IMO.

Maxiell's future depends a lot on what other teams would be willing to pay for him. Does Joe match if some team offers him most/all of their MLE?

yeah j-max is one of the guys we will build around, not trade. his attitude, toughness, work ethic, and high energy play is exactly what joe is trying to shape the entire team to be. i can't see him being moved.

he has vastly improved his game in his short time in the league and while he still has some limitations, he also has a lot of value as a solid role player. he's not technically 'untouchable' but i think he is of far greater value to us than he would be to other teams. so i don't see him going anywhere.
I agree with this. The top 3 young players have some great things going for them: first, they have a hungrier attitude; second, they have years of potential ahead of them; and lastly, none of them can be blamed for shitting up the ECF.

Maxiell's future depends a lot on what other teams would be willing to pay for him. Does Joe match if some team offers him most/all of their MLE?
I think he's worth the full MLE. There will be plenty of other big men getting the MLE that provide less than him. I think he's great as a 6th man, or as a starter complementing a post oriented center. I am willing to move him though if need be to get that post center, but I would certainly welcome him staying.

Pretty much agree with Chris. I like the guy, like the fight in him, but I'm not ready to build around him. I'd love to keep him at the right price.

I'm not sure why we are talking about Max being a free agent.

He's locked up for next year, and at bare minimum, they can keep him for another year after than with the qualifying offer.

There's lots of time to evaluate him yet before having to worry about his contract.

I'd be more worried about Rip, actually.

^ Exactly, thats what I was going to say.

I'm not sure why we are talking about Max being a free agent.

He's locked up for next year, and at bare minimum, they can keep him for another year after than with the qualifying offer.

There's lots of time to evaluate him yet before having to worry about his contract.

I'd be more worried about Rip, actually.
I agree on that.

I think we ought to have some idea of both players' long-term futures with our team by February, if not sooner.

If we get a stud such as Anthony, what do we do with Tay? Trade him for someone like Brendan Haywood and perhaps a pick?

I believe any trade for Anthony would probably include Tayshaun.

Yeah, I haven't been following much lately -- I was assuming the Billups for Melo swap.

I've asked this before and nobody answered......when are they allowed to start making deals?

july first i think..or is that when teams can offer to RFA's?

I think they can make deals at any time but Chauncey has Base Year Compenstion status until July 1st so any deals involving him need to wait. Carmelo too.

Larry Coon #85


In addition, teams cannot trade players under the following circumstances:


For two months after receiving the player in trade or claiming him off waivers, if the player is being traded in combination with other players. However, the team is free to trade the player by himself (not packaged with other players) immediately. This restriction applies only to teams over the salary cap. (Also see question number 72 for a special case where players can be traded together in less than two months.)


When the trading deadline has passed. Teams are free to make trades again once their season has ended, but cannot trade players whose contracts are ending or could end due to an option or ETO.


For three months or until December 15th of that season (whichever is later) after signing a contract as a free agent. This obviously does not apply to the trade completing a sign-and-trade transaction (see question number 76). Interestingly, however, it is unclear whether this rule prevents a player who has been signed-and-traded from being traded agiain prior to three months/December 15 (see question number 80).


For 30 days after signing as a draft pick.


Without the player's consent when the player is playing under a one-year contract (excluding any option year) and will have Larry Bird or Early Bird rights at the end of the season. This includes first round draft picks following their fourth (option) season, who accept their team's qualifying offer for their fifth season. When the player consents to such a trade, the team loses its Larry Bird/Early Bird rights, and the player is considered a Non-Bird free agent. Note: when there is an option year involved, they can get around this regulation by invoking the option prior to the trade.


For one year after exercising the right of first refusal to keep a restricted free agent (however, the player can consent to a trade to any team except the team that tried to sign him).


After claiming a player on waivers, for 30 days if the player was claimed during a season, or until the first day of the next season if the player was claimed during the offseason.


A team cannot reacquire a player they traded away during that season (a season being July 1 - June 30) unless the player has been waived.


In the special case of players waived through the amnesty provision (see question number 18), the player cannot be reacquired for the length of the terminated contract.

thanks