Ozzy Ozzy Ozzy

Vernon Vernon Vernon!

BARK AT THE MOON

Hasek, Hasek, Ha..... meh.

Debate in one of the local papers about whether he should be in the Hall of Fame. Thoughts?

can he match Roy and win 11 straight? It's possible.

I can't find out what the record for goalie wins in a row (playoffs) is. I heard Ozzie's is the longest since Roy in 1993, but what about before that. The longest streak ever is 17, but that wasn't playoffs.

Debate in one of the local papers about whether he should be in the Hall of Fame. Thoughts?

The NHL hall of fame is the one I know the least about (standards wise). Give me some other goalies to compare him to, and also some career stats and I'll answer.

I know he has more wins than quite a few goalies that are already in.

While the Red Wings Express, led by goalie Chris Osgood, continues to gather steam, fans such as Dan Arreola and Ryan Looney of Southgate have engaged in an interesting side debate.

Is Osgood a Hall of Fame goalie or is he a product of a solid Red Wings system that ensured many of his victories?

This has been a popular barroom and radio debate the past couple weeks and it continues to gather steam as the Wings steamroll the competition.

Some remember the Osgood who used to give up long goals and rarely gained the confidence of the Wings coaching staff to remain the top goalie. Others remember a guy who has piled up victories over his career and helped save this playoff run after Dominik Hasek faltered in the opening round against the Predators. Since taking over, Osgood is 9-0 with a 1.47 goals-against average and .935 save percentage.

There are compelling arguments in his favor to get him into the Hall. Osgood is 15th on the career victories list with 363 and ranks ahead of Hall of Fame goalies such as Gerry Cheevers (230), Ken Dryden (258) and Gump Worsley, who had 335 victories and a losing record.

The Osgood debate has gathered steam in Red Wings circles since he guided the Wings to nine straight victories. The Wings lead the Stars, 3-0, heading into tonight's game in Dallas and are one victory from advancing to the Stanley Cup Finals.

Arreola is leaning toward putting Osgood in the Hall of Fame, but said winning his second Cup as a starting goalie should put him over the top.

Looney and Arreola met Monday at Malarkey's Irish Pub to watch the Wings' 5-2 victory over the Stars in Game 3 and cheered loudly as the Wings pulled away and put a stranglehold on the series. They've been buddies since age 5 and have played travel and beer-league hockey together. They are passionate Red Wings fans and believe Osgood is a Hall of Fame-caliber goalie.

"But he probably won't get in it," said Looney, who is a special-education instructor in the Southgate school system. "But he definitely has been great with the Red Wings and he has played very well. I think he should be in."

Never named 'best'
One of the problems with Osgood is he never has won a Vezina Trophy as the NHL's best goalie. However, he shared his second Jennings Trophy this season for lowest goals-against average in a season. The last time he won it was in 1997, when he started a majority of games over Mike Vernon. Once the playoffs began, coach Scotty Bowman put his faith in Vernon, who went on to win the Conn Smythe Trophy as the playoff most valuable player.

Osgood took advantage of his opportunity to start the following season. The Wings won their second consecutive Cup as Osgood went 16-6 in the playoffs with a 2.12 goals-against average. His playoffs were marred by a couple of long, improbable goals against him, but he usually followed up with solid games.

For Arreola, the key moments for Osgood occurred after he returned to the Red Wings from the New York Islanders and St. Louis Blues. He was 84-67-20 away from Detroit.

Osgood shared time with Garth Snow in New York and was traded to St. Louis late in the following season. Osgood played the remainder of that season and the next one, but his contract was not renewed by the Blues.

Numbers are adding up
The Wings later signed him and Osgood is 67-18-15, including this playoff run, since his return.

"I think Chris Osgood is a guy you can go out and have beers with if you are his teammate," Arreola said.

"I definitely think his teammates want to play for him. I just think Dominik Hasek is a little weird. Osgood is one of the guys. And I think since he returned, he appreciates what he has here a little more. Before, he gave 90 percent and now I believe he is giving 110 percent."

The two Red Wings fans admit there are current goalies who are better. That lists includes Martin Brodeur (Devils) and Miikka Kiprusoff (Flames).

"I just think Kiprusoff is hands down the best goalie in the NHL," said Arreola, a salesman for Cbeyond Company. "And Brodeur is a great goalie, but you could say he benefits by a tough defensive system also."

I've maintained that using the eyeball test on Osgood, he's not a Hall of Fame goalie. However, he keeps piling up numbers that will at least get his name in the debate. And if he wins one more Cup, there is a good chance he might get in.

"I might be a little bit on the fence right now, although I am leaning toward putting him in," Arreola said. "But if he wins another Cup, then I definitely think he deserves to be in."

Chasing history

Chris Osgood has had his sights set on Terry Sawchuk 's records ever since he re-signed with the Wings after the lockout. He's still 76 victories short of Sawchuk's franchise mark of 352, but with Monday's Game 3 victory he's surprised to find himself tied with Sawchuk for the club record of 47 career playoff victories.

"I had no idea, really," Osgood admitted Tuesday. "But it's a nice accomplishment, definitely."

With a victory tonight Osgood would break another record he shares with Sawchuk, notching his 10th consecutive playoff victory. Osgood won nine in a row in a span of two playoffs -- in 1998 and '99 -- while Sawchuk did the same thing in 1952 and '53. (The NHL record for the longest streak in a single playoff season belongs to Patrick Roy , who won 11 in a row with Montreal in 1993.)

Also, with his next shutout, Osgood will tie Sawchuk for ninth place on the NHL's all-time playoff list with 12 in his career.

"He's full of confidence," Darren McCarty said. "He's big, he's in a zone. Just watch the way he carries himself, his positioning. He's just playing huge, and it's great to see. I think he's really relishing this opportunity, being back here and being the guy."

Here are the ones in as of now:

Clinton S. Benedict (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P196502&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
John William (Johnny) Bower (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P197601&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Francis Charles (Frank) Brimsek (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P196604&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Walter Edward (Turk) Broda (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P196701&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Gerald Michael (Gerry) Cheevers (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P198501&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Alex Connell (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P195804&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Kenneth Wayne Dryden (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P198301&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
William Ronald (Bill) Durnan (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P196402&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Anthony James (Tony) Esposito (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P198801&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Grant Fuhr (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P200301&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Charles Robert (Chuck) Gardiner (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P194504&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Edward (Eddie, Fast Eddie) Giacomin (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P198702&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
George Hainsworth (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P196104&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Glenn Henry Hall (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P197504&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
William Milton (Riley) Hern (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P196208&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Harry (Hap) Holmes (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P197203&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
John Bower (Bouse) Hutton (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P196210&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Frederick Hugh (Hughie) Lehman (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P195813&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Percy LeSueur (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P196106&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Harry (Apple Cheeks) Lumley (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P198001&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Patrick Joseph (Paddy) Moran (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P195815&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Bernard Marcel (Bernie) Parent (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P198403&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Lester Patrick (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P194704&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Joseph Jacques (Jake the Snake) Plante (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P197802&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Claude Earl (Chuck) Rayner (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P197302&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Patrick Roy (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P200602&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Terrance Gordon (Terry) Sawchuk (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P197103&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Oliver Levi Seibert (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P196110&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
William (Bill) John Smith (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P199304&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Cecil R. (Tiny) Thompson (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P195903&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Vladislav Aleksandrovich Tretiak (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P198903&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Georges Vezina (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P194512&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Harry (Rat) Westwick (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P196225&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Lorne John (Gump) Worsley (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P198003&list=ByPosition&pos=G)
Roy (Shrimp) Worters (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?type=Player&mem=P196904&list=ByPosition&pos=G)

I can't seem to find the article that talked about the goalies that had less wins than him. There's one goalie in the hall that has a losing record even. I think it was Gump Worsley.

Hope the formatting isn't all jacked up. I've only seen two of those goalies play (Fuhr and Roy), so I'm not sure how many of them you can compare Ozzie to. Dryden is the next most modern I could think of and Ozzie numbers stack up well to him:



NAME-GP-W--L--T--SO--Avg-GP--W(p)-L(p)-SO-Avg
Fuhr 868 403 295 114 25 3.38 150 92 50 6 2.92
Roy 1029 551 315 131 66 2.54 247 151 94 23 2.3
Dryden 397 258 57 74 46 2.24 112 80 32 10 2.4

Ozzie 621 336 186 77 43 2.45 87 45 37 10 2.24

We'll see when he gets a few more seasons in, where his numbers are at. He's numbers seem pretty on par with Roy's actually, although Roy has a fist full of rings.

Ozzie's won 54% of his games with a 7% shutout rate.
Roy at 53% of his games with a 6% shutout rate.
Fuhr only winning 46% of his games with a 3% shutout rate.

I haven't given this much thought but my first impression is that Ozzie isn't a HOF goalie. I do think he's been very under appreciated in Detroit and his game right now is great, but at the same time, HOF? I think he's a good goalie, this year a very good goalie who's been playing great. But that's not the same as saying he's a great goalie. Think about Hasek, Roy, Brodeur or even Grant Fuhr. We're talking about goalies who could win games by themselves and just saying their name, nevermind their presence between the pipes, intimidated the other team.

I agree with Zek; if Ozzie puts in another few years at this level then he definitely would be deserving of consideration.

Stanley Cups:

Fuhr - 5 cups (4 as starter)
Roy - 4 cups
Dryden - 6 cups

Ozzie - 2 cups (1 as starter)

I think he may have to win it this year to get in.

Who did Fuhr play for before the Sabres? Was he with the Oilers?

Edit: Looked it up. Wow, he bounced around a bit. Played for Edmonton, Toronto, Buffalo, Los Angeles, St. Louis, and Calgary. I only remember Edmonton, Buffalo and St. Louis.

Who did Fuhr play for before the Sabres? Was he with the Oilers? I know Roy was with the Oilers for a while.

No you didn't.

No you didn't.

Kids these days.....


Really, I don't think Ozzy's a HOFer, numbers or no numbers.

Hugely important backup(and starter) tender though.

I think his numbers are good enough. Unfotunately he doesn't have Vezina or Hart trophies to add to his resume. He has played in an era with other goalies that have racked up trophies (Roy, Brodeur, Hasek). He'd have to have a good group of Stanley Cups to make up for the lack of individual hardware.

That's the eternal debate with players getting into the HOF in any sport. Do the numbers speak well enough about the candidate? Or are the numbers just not enough in any way to tell the whole story.

Right now, even if he had similar numbres, there's just no way you can put Ozzie in the same class as Roy, Brodeur or Hasek. Those guys could own games, destroy the psyche of a team all by themselves (hell, Hasek damn near won a cup with a very mediocre Buffalo team all by himself). They could win games and entire series. They were the first thing opposing forwards thought about. I may be laying on a bit thick but can we really say that about Ozzie right now?

No you didn't.
I meant Canadiens, so I just took it out.

Great post, DE. I never thought Ozzie was one of the top 5 or so goalies every year, and you have to be nearly the best each year to be considered. He's a solid goalie, but I think his numbers are inflated a little bit due to the fact he's played in Detroit most of his career, a team that has been a top 3 seed each year since he was a rookie. I've never seen Ozzie take over a game the way Hasek, Roy or Brodeur can. He's a solid goalie, but not an elite goalie.

You can't say that about Ozzie at all. He's got the number because he's got a damn good defensive crew set up in front of him. Always has with the Wings.

Coffey
Murphy
Lidstrom
Rafalski
Fetisov
Chelios
Konstantinov

Those are just guys off the top of my head, I'm sure there's many more high caliber guys that have been through here. Not to mention Bowman's focus on playing strong defense with his wings and centers. He's been a very solid goalie but unless he keeps up these numbers for a few more seasons (through the rest of his contract), I don't think he makes it. If he does, however, keep putting up these numbers, he may have a shot.

I meant Canadiens, so I just took it out.

What are you saying? All Canadians look alike?

Fuck, you caught me with the spelling error. And I was thinking about Fuhr with the Oilers and it just slipped in there instead.

I'm pretty confused right now, but the hockey team is called the Montreal Canadiens if that's what you're talking about.

You can't say that about Ozzie at all. He's got the number because he's got a damn good defensive crew set up in front of him. Always has with the Wings.

Coffey
Murphy
Lidstrom
Rafalski
Fetisov
Chelios
Konstantinov

Those are just guys off the top of my head, I'm sure there's many more high caliber guys that have been through here. Not to mention Bowman's focus on playing strong defense with his wings and centers. He's been a very solid goalie but unless he keeps up these numbers for a few more seasons (through the rest of his contract), I don't think he makes it. If he does, however, keep putting up these numbers, he may have a shot.

Not too sure about Coffey in that group. In fact you could argue that Coffey was able to be the offensive machine he was in Edmonton thanks to Fuhr who allowed them to play with 5 guys attacking.

I caught the tail end of the Coffey era. My biggest Coffey memory is him scoring on his own goal. I was mostly basing that one on big name hype. All the others were great defensemen, and didn't Uwe Krupp make an all-star team playing for us in the late 90's?

Also, thanks for the vindication Vinny.

Krupp was a piece of garbage for us, we paid him 12 million or something for 10 games.

Also, I made those numbers up but it was something like that.

One thing that I would like to point out about Osgood: He's never had a losing season. Never.

I don't know how many other goalies have accomplished that feat (Dryden excluded) but that is a remarkable accomplishment. Granted he was helped by playing for the Wings for most of his career but he did pretty well even when he was playing for the Islanders and Blues. And those teams were fairly average. So one can't really say that he was a product of the Wings system.

It's possible that by the time he retires he will be Top 5 all time in wins with 2 Stanley Cups to his name (maybe more). It will be hard to keep him out with those numbers but his lack of personal hardware might hold him back.

Also, thanks for the vindication Vinny.

I wasn't calling you out for the spelling error. If I did, it would have looked something like this:


LOLOLOLOLOL
HAHAHAHAHAHA
ROFLMAO
MR GRAMMAR JUST FUCKED HIMSELF!!!
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
GO BACK TO CLEVELAND!!!!!!!
:zekyl:


also tell Kelsey Fool says hi.

You emphasized the A in canadiAns so I took that as you correcting me. My mistake. I don't mind being called out, I like to know when I'm wrong.

Also, you're right on Krupp, Vinny. He had his all-star season one or two years before he came to us. That's why we signed him to that disaster contract.

I've never been a fan of Ozzy. His voice has always annoyed the fuck out of me.

Oh, you're talking about the goalie...

Like an air traffic controller or Britney Spears's publicist, Detroit Red Wings goaltender traditionally has been among America's most thankless jobs -- a fact not lost on incumbent Chris Osgood. The 35-year-old Osgood, who stoned the Dallas Stars 2-1 in Game 2 of the Western Conference finals last Saturday, has been a Red Wing long enough to know that in Detroit, skaters win Stanley Cups and goalies lose them. He shrugs at the skewed logic. "That's changing," says Osgood, who improved to 8-0 since relieving Dominik Hasek during the first round against Nashville. "I think people realize now that we win and lose as a team."

Osgood has been perceived as the worst goalie to backstop a Cup champion, which raises this possibility: In June will he be dismissed as the worst goalie to lead a team to two Cups? The thought is as absurd as the original conceit that Osgood was just along for the ride with the title-winning 1998 Red Wings when he put up a 2.12 goals-against average and a .918 save percentage in the playoffs. In 13 seasons, 10 with Detroit, Osgood has won 363 regular-season games (15th alltime) and 53 in the playoffs through Sunday. His regular-season winning percentage of .631 ranks first among the top 20 goalies in career wins. "Toss out those numbers without a name, add the Cup, and 80 percent of people would say that's near Hall of Fame credentials," Detroit winger Darren McCarty says. "Then say it's Ozzie, and the number'll drop to 50 percent. Or less."

The negativity can be blamed on some of Osgood's memorable low points, starting in 1994 when he was left sobbing at his locker after his giveaway led to a shocking series-winning third-period goal by San Jose's Jamie Baker in Game 7 of the first round. Other dodgy goals followed, notably Jamie Langenbrunner's overtime shot from a different zip code in Game 5 of the '98 conference final in Dallas. Forgotten is Osgood's shutout that eliminated the Stars in Game 6.

Yet Detroit thought it needed an upgrade and, in 2001, acquired Hasek and waived Osgood, who was picked up by the Islanders. Osgood helped New York, and then St. Louis (2003-04), reach the playoffs, but he returned to Detroit in August 2005 a new man. During the '04-05 lockout Osgood reinvented his style, a remarkable act by a 300-win goalie of whom Wings G.M. Ken Holland says, "He was an NHL goalie who had high school technical skills." Osgood introduced some butterfly into his repertoire and improved his speed. The stream of pucks that once leaked through him slowed to a trickle.

While the old Ozzie -- baseball cap tugged down, eyes averted -- has receded beneath a calm and confident demeanor, so has the hoary notion that he is a mere passenger on the Detroit bandwagon. "Not his fault we have a good team," goalie coach Jim Bedard says. Cocooned by a puck-moving, rebound-clearing defense that allowed 21 shots or fewer in six of his first eight playoff starts this spring, Osgood keeps inching from mockery toward belated stardom. "I don't brag about myself," he says. "I don't have to be a star. I just want to be part of the Red Wings." The now great and powerful Oz has spoken.

Here's Michael Rosenberg of the Free Press take on Ozzie:

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080521/COL22/805210414/1048/SPORTS

I like the column and agree with it. I still don't think Ozzie deserves HOF consideration yet but I think Rosenberg answers very well the argument that Ozzie only shines because of the team in front of him.