As I watch the Pistons stumble through the playoffs yet again I have to start this thread. Joe has done a pretty good job with the draft and trades but in the end, the Pistons have become terrible underachievers. Many people wanted the team blown up after last years playoff joke but it never happened. Many people complain that Flip Saunders is a terrible coach, yet he remains. Joe promosed us that this team would not be the same arrogant and complacent team of years past but here we are in the playoffs playing the same bullshit, half-assed, sub-par ball. How much should Joe take the blame for this? Enough to cost him his job?

I think that, out of respect, we should hold off on this discussion until the Sixers eliminate us in game 5. :p

Due to lack of significant changes, this team is pretty much the same team.

Should Micknugget be pushed off a cliff?

Should Micknugget be pushed off a cliff?

WOW! I open up a topic for discussion and get personally attacked! Jick, you're an asshole! How's that for a personal attack?

I wouldn't say that was an attack, he was just asking a question.

I don't think you should be pushed off one though.

WOW! I open up a topic for discussion and get personally attacked! Jick, you're an asshole! How's that for a personal attack?

It was pretty stupid.

very stupid.

I'd say it was a bit premature myself.

about 10 years premature.

I think the main problem with this thread is the lack of a poll.

Flip first of all.

^ Prepare for war.

I think we are bums right now, and its still premature. Hide behind the "bringing up discussion" ploy. But you're still in the end prematurely bitching about probably the wrong guy. Its one thing to be expecting excellence, its another to be so uppity to scapegoat Joe D at this point.

It would be ill-mannered and uncalled for to suggest pushing anyone off a cliff. However, I will propose this much...

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/blogs/vox/media/swat.jpg

S.W.A.T this.

Fire Joe? No... but if the team gets bounced by the Sixers or Orlando, and the "regular season 4" are still together, you really have to wonder if he has "Larry Bird disease"

Larry Bird disease refers to the Pacers of 03, 04, and 05, going all the way into 06... when he got so hypnotized by the potential of his team, that he just ignored the glaring problems that burned the Pacers year after year, just kept insisting they could still win the title... till eventually those exact flaws sunk the ship.

Even right up to the Artest trade request, they were still insisting that their team could win the title... even as Jermaine O'Neal kept getting injured without any real frontcourt help... even when we all knew that Jamaal Tinsley couldn't last as a championship point guard, even as we waited for the obvious Artest melt-down... Larry Bird just refused to see them, and what was a title contending team... eventually became mediocre.

There has been a steady pattern, each year has been worse than the last in the playoffs. And yes, 07 was worse than 06, we went from blowing out the Cavs twice then struggling to win in 7... to barely scraping past the Cavs twice then losing 4 straight... to the same team. it's worse.

Hunger, desire, rebounding, athleticism needs to be directly injected into the starting lineup, like a syringe. Soft jump shooting, arrogance, and a soft perimeter based offensive system need to be jettisoned. if they go down here, nobody should be safe.

WOW! I open up a topic for discussion and get personally attacked! Jick, you're an asshole! How's that for a personal attack?

It wasn't me this year. :)

Fire Joe? No... but if the team gets bounced by the Sixers or Orlando, and the "regular season 4" are still together, you really have to wonder if he has "Larry Bird disease"

Larry Bird disease refers to the Pacers of 03, 04, and 05, going all the way into 06... when he got so hypnotized by the potential of his team, that he just ignored the glaring problems that burned the Pacers year after year, just kept insisting they could still win the title... till eventually those exact flaws sunk the ship.

Even right up to the Artest trade request, they were still insisting that their team could win the title... even as Jermaine O'Neal kept getting injured without any real frontcourt help... even when we all knew that Jamaal Tinsley couldn't last as a championship point guard, even as we waited for the obvious Artest melt-down... Larry Bird just refused to see them, and what was a title contending team... eventually became mediocre.

There has been a steady pattern, each year has been worse than the last in the playoffs. And yes, 07 was worse than 06, we went from blowing out the Cavs twice then struggling to win in 7... to barely scraping past the Cavs twice then losing 4 straight... to the same team. it's worse.

Hunger, desire, rebounding, athleticism needs to be directly injected into the starting lineup, like a syringe. Soft jump shooting, arrogance, and a soft perimeter based offensive system need to be jettisoned. if they go down here, nobody should be safe.

This post should've come with a :cogent: warning.

Fire Flip, hire LB for starters.

...which is never going to happen, thank goodness.

Sometimes I wish we could have kept LB around for the impending implosion year that everybody in the free world saw coming, so people wouldn't have such a massive inflated opinion of him.

Are you thanking goodness that Flip will not be fired, or that LB won't be hired back? :p

...which is never going to happen, thank goodness.

Sometimes I wish we could have kept LB around for the impending implosion year that everybody in the free world saw coming, so people wouldn't have such a massive inflated opinion of him.

They played hard every night, iirc, under elbee

At times they came out and played just as shitty as this version of the team, just not as often.

Let's not get fooled and say that the Larry Brown teams were perfect, but they were definitely more likeable than the past 2-3 squads.

He wouldn't have let them slip in the discipline department.

There was less scrutiny than there was with the last 2 or 3 teams, and I'm just going to leave it at that.

That can be attributed to the fact that Flip inherited a team that had just come off a Championship and another Finals appearence though. The higher the expectations, the more you're scrutinized when you aren't living up to said expectations.

Bill Davidson is never going to hire LB back, lets give up that fantasy right now.

True or False time:

Flip Saunders is mentally tough.

Aside from KStat, I'm legit curious if there's anybody here who would say "True" to that? Because I think if your gut tells you the answer to that is False, then you should be in support of firing the Flipster. This team has real problems living up to its potential in the playoffs...this isn't all his fault, but after constant underachieving you either have to:

a) overhaul the roster
b) fire the coach

You have to do one or the other.

The other things we need to address, are:

1) Big guard on Billups problem. That's all it really takes to shut us down.
2) Points that aren't off of jumpshooting only. Easy baskets. We need points that don't rely on the "Almighty 45%" (a good jump shooting percentage).
3) Athleticism, hunger, rebounding, hustle. they're all intertwined. I think it's essential that our two starting big-men not be long jumpshooters who aren't able to bang around. Sheed or McDyess needs to be pulled from the starting lineup. their games are too similar.

it no longer matters whether we followed these during the Finals runs, the point is, its needed now.

joe has done a great job and is as secure in his position as a 3rd world dictator. we have the talent we need. it's not his fault they have no heart or pride.

rest assured- there will be some big changes this offseason. there can be no more excuses so changes will be made.

And as frustrating as this bunch is, I still don't count them out of it.

Fist off, a coach is only as mentally tough as his players. Poppovich is a badass because his badass superstar says he is. Without Duncan he'd be average and he wouldnt have any more control over his team than Flip does.

Secondly, if you broom the coach out, the players better go with him, and vice versa. You do not hand out free passes for this.

Lastly, the " any big guard can shut down billups" comment is absurd. Kidd never shut him down. Eric Snow never shut him down. Andre Miller never outplayed him either before this series.

That isn't about big guards, it's about chauncey. He needs to start making shots.

Bill Davidson is never going to hire LB back, lets give up that fantasy right now.

True or False time:

Flip Saunders is mentally tough.

Aside from KStat, I'm legit curious if there's anybody here who would say "True" to that? Because I think if your gut tells you the answer to that is False, then you should be in support of firing the Flipster. This team has real problems living up to its potential in the playoffs...this isn't all his fault, but after constant underachieving you either have to:

a) overhaul the roster
b) fire the coach

You have to do one or the other.

The other things we need to address, are:

1) Big guard on Billups problem. That's all it really takes to shut us down.
2) Points that aren't off of jumpshooting only. Easy baskets. We need points that don't rely on the "Almighty 45%" (a good jump shooting percentage).
3) Athleticism, hunger, rebounding, hustle. they're all intertwined. I think it's essential that our two starting big-men not be long jumpshooters who aren't able to bang around. Sheed or McDyess needs to be pulled from the starting lineup. their games are too similar.

it no longer matters whether we followed these during the Finals runs, the point is, its needed now.

I realize that. LB and Zeke are out.

And good post.

They played hard every night, iirc, under elbee

They didn't even come close to playing hard every night. I can think of 4 playoff games they flat out tanked during their championship season, let alone 2005.

They didn't play hard every night for LB, either. Even LB admitted as much.

Secondly, if you broom the coach out, the players better go with him, and vice versa. You do not hand out free passes for this.


I agree with this.

I agree with this.

Ok, 2 against 10 billion gazillion

Only starter I'd consider keeping is Rip, because Rip is the one guy on the team you can't accuse of taking nights off. He might have mental burnouts every now and then out of frustration, but you can hardly ever fault his effort.

If this is ultimately a desire issue, I'd say Rip has far more left in his tank than Dice, Sheed, Chauncey and tayshaun.

Tay needs to quit smoking weed

CBill would get some pretty decent return, imo.

Dice. I like the guy. Wish he could win a title here, but unfortunately he came here one year late.

I'd hate to trade Sheed, but his value is pretty high right now...as is he, prolly.

I like Rip. He just needs to make better decisions when handling the ball

caveat...I'm drinking a few beer tonight. I reserve the right to say..."I was just kidding" and y'all have to go 'oh, ok"

Rip's high dribble is how he has such an efficient jumper off the dribble...it's also why he has such issues handling the ball. I can live with the downside.

Only if he doesn't fire Flip immediately in this offseason (Regardless of the outcome of this series)

Shit, you guys really jumped on mick for this one.

While I don't think Joe needs to be fired, I appreciate the sentiment this morning.

Joe deserves a lot of the blame for this. He should have seen this coming after last year, and his decision to stand pat with the core is coming back to bite him in the ass now. You know, the old "the definition of insanity..." cliche fits pretty well in this case.

There is bad mix on this team. No leadership. A sense of entitlement. An arrogance that isn't being backed up with results. Something's rotten in Auburn Hills.

It's time to shake it up, change the players, change the coach, change the attitude.

The hard part is, deciding who to move and who to keep (from the core 4). To be honest, I don't really care, I've grown sick of each of them in a lot of ways.

It might be time to package two starters for a superstar. Who a good candidate for that might be, I don't know (yet), but the current mix is not working. What's going to change?

So no, Joe doesn't need to be fired, but he does need to wake up and take action.

p.s. I still think it's possible that they win this series, but the problems aren't going to fade by knocking out the #7 seed.

i tend to wonder if making it to the ECF is a bad thing this season.....it might convince the Piston org that things are alright. maybe we do need a first round flame out to embarass us into overhauling the team.

WOW! I open up a topic for discussion and get personally attacked! Jick, you're an asshole! How's that for a personal attack?

I am laughing out loud at my computer...seriously...spitting on my computer screen. Talk about the most insecure poster ever. The original comment was a joking way of my stating my opinion that firing Dumars is the most ludicrous option. He can't make the players play hard against bad teams. Relax brozef, it's all in good fun. However if you feel the need to boycott my posts, please do so, as it will allow me to further clean my computer screen with saliva.

i tend to wonder if making it to the ECF is a bad thing this season.....it might convince the Piston org that things are alright. maybe we do need a first round flame out to embarass us into overhauling the team.

agreed. the last thing we need is a bit more 'tweaking' which in this case might mean trading a rotation player and even possibly a starter. i think we need almost an entire overhaul. at least, more than one move is needed. this group as a whole is not getting it done and the lazy mentality has infected them all.

re: Should Joe D be fired?


In my professional opinion, yes. (Call me)

Players need to go with the coach? Maybe, but that's if you dont believe they were good enough to win it all. I think we built a great enough team to win it. But the discipline and focus hasnt been there. In a naive world where you pretend players can actually police themselves in this primadonna league, you put it on them. But at the end of the day coaching was the issue imo. No team can police themselves in the NBA for 3 straight years of no disciplined authority. While players deserve some accountability, Flip being fired should only be related to Flip. The "if he goes they should go" thing is for Flip fans. I'm a pistons fan and I want a leader at HC, the players he leads just have to not be cancerous. I dont believe anyone is on our team. I don't know where people get the idea that players in the nba consistently police themselves as a group, but i've never known that to be the case. If it were we wouldnt need a coach, Billups calls half the Offensive plays already? So the old "coach gave them the plays, not his fault if they dont execute" cliche' is overly simplistic in a dynamic scenario.


Again I appreciate SVG's putting the blame on himself when his team loses to T.Dot. I think that takes alot of pressure off your players and gets them in line with what you want to do next game. But every coach coaches differently. The thing is, that most of the good ones have good psychological methods to motivate their players regardless of whether they should be or not. Doc Rivers riding on his guys up 20, SVG taking the blunt of blame and benching his starters when they got complacent like ours tend to, Phil Jackson working the refs and saying little sly shit to get in his players heads, Greg poppovich running his team with an iron grip and putting his second best player in a bench role.


Honestly I dont care if we hold on to the core or not. We need a change in coaching as a priority if Flip can't get his team ready like Poppovich got the "done" Spurs ready. If Joe D believes he gave his coach a championship capable team, he should not feel the least bit bad about it on his end. But when you give a guy pieces to your puzzle, its on him to put it together. To come up with a defense to counteract iggy passing more. To understand when to use The Theo piece you gave him. To call some plays out of the timeout that gets easy shots.

Let me also reiterate that this whole idea is premature. Just referring to the notion that the player ride out with the coach. Not in the NBA. Whether its fair or not, the coach going will not be in direct correlation with what players go. I also expect most of them to be back next year no matter who is coach.

I agree that coaching is a big part of the problem, but that doesn't mean that I think it's all Flip's fault.

There is fault for Flip as the coach and there is fault for the players for not listening to, and/or disrespecting their coach.

Just changing the coach doesn't fix the problem if the players are just going to do the same thing to the next guy.

I think we've got a toxic lockerroom right now, players and coaches alike.

certainly the players should shoulder blame. Heavy blame. But codename is right that a lot of people are putting certain things' on the players for things that are traditionally a coach's job. Teams really dont police themselves, nor have they really ever, except maybe when michael jordan (GOAT) was a motivational machine during those later years. Maybe. the whole "they been there before" thing had made people think that a coach's job is just to be there. It really isnt and its clear that this team needs a hardass coach to force them into shape.

It's neither here nor there though because they are way too far gone into their own way of doing things, that even a tougher coach probably won't be able to change much about them. I think that's the real reason some players HAVE to be shipped about - they've been together too long to change.

Joe Dumars made a tactical error in assuming this team needed a "player's coach" after Larry Brown's hardass antics. At the end of the day these guys are still PLAYERS, players in a PRIMADONNA AGE of NBA athletes. they have egos just as big as 30ppg scoring "superstars". Replacing Flip with a slightly better coach isn't really the answer... the answer is building a time machine and getting a different kind of coach when LB pulled his discontent carpetbagger act, but hey we dont have time machines yet.

Sure they have the "talent" to win it, but so did the 05 Pacers and pre-artest-trade 06 Pacers, and we all knew there was no way those guys actually went all the way and we've reached that point too.

To be fair with these pacers comparisons, they were a legitimate threat to reach the finals before the brawl.

I'm only mad at joe for listening to the fans and trying to go with youth. It's kept us mediocre for the past couple years. Imagine if we had dealt Amir and stuckey's pick for a player that could be helping us right now.

Boy howdy, handing out that huge contract to Chauncey seems dumb now doesn't it?

I agree that coaching is a big part of the problem, but that doesn't mean that I think it's all Flip's fault.
Everybody who posts about my post stop here. I never said its all Flip's fault. I only stated that its naive to put him being fired in direct correlation with players needing to go. The "if flip goes they should go" thing is a myth is all i'm saying. I'm actually of the mind that its not all Flip's fault by any means. But as a HC, he gets the can if his players are properly motivated, the rotation is out of wack, and the team results are not at expectations. Some think its not fair, but its the nba, and its been like that for awhile now.



I'm only mad at joe for listening to the fans and trying to go with youth. It's kept us mediocre for the past couple years. Imagine if we had dealt Amir and stuckey's pick for a player that could be helping us right now.

Maybe, but thats not a clearer route, and we very well may sit in this same spot with older players in more positions. hard to prove either way at this point.


Just changing the coach doesn't fix the problem if the players are just going to do the same thing to the next guy.
So who is it on? Because you can't begin to tell me that any one of those guys is not listening to Poppovich. If people dont respect you as a coach, you blame yourself. Because there arent too many saints in this league. If i remember correctly they had to be taught as a team to play the right way before we won a title under Brown.


I do think we pull out this series, but if an asteroid of idiocy hits this team, first fire on the list is Flip. Doesnt make it all his fault, just what has to take place after 3 disappointing years of a team under performing on his watch.

Gutz, I disagree. This is NOT ALL Flips fault. The players have a role in this thing too.

Maybe, but thats not a clearer route, and we very well may sit in this same spot with older players in more positions. hard to prove either way at this point.




same as if Pop was the coach here with our given roster.

what? what would we realistically get for those kids? should we only have old guys? no- our past has shown we need more youth and athleticism and guys who are hungry and eager to play. the kids have done nothing but HELP us this year and if anything we should be playing them MORE.



I'm only mad at joe for listening to the fans and trying to go with youth. It's kept us mediocre for the past couple years. Imagine if we had dealt Amir and stuckey's pick for a player that could be helping us right now.

what? what would we realistically get for those kids? should we only have old guys? no- our past has shown we need more youth and athleticism and guys who are hungry and eager to play. the kids have done nothing but HELP us this year and if anything we should be playing them MORE.


LOL @ the kids helped us. shameful. we could have combined the kids with contracts to get talented guys to come off our bench. A guy like Maggette instead of hayes. Imagine calling a guy off the bench to help us instead of hoping he only hurts us a little bit.

I'm just amazed by the langlois cocksucking around this place thinking Amir or AA or whoever was gonna be the savior. Not one coach (and certianly not the type of guy the same fans are asking for in this thread) would give them any serious run.

same as if Pop was the coach here with our given roster.
not really. But if you believe its just as sure, thats your prerogative.

not really. But if you believe its just as sure, thats your prerogative.

Really, its EASY to prove that if pop was here we'd be better? It's not hard to prove?

You crack me up. no one here gets peddled around more than you, but you always have that "no, no it isn't cause I say so" pool to go, to don't you?

Really, its EASY to prove that if pop was here we'd be better? It's not hard to prove?

You crack me up. no one here gets peddled around more than you, but you always have that "no, no it isn't cause I say so" pool to go, to don't you?

Really, its EASY to prove that if pop was here we'd be better? It's not hard to prove?
And shooting the picks away for vets would have made us better, yea i get it back and forth we go.


You crack me up.
no your computer cracks you up, you dont know me.


no one here gets peddled around more than you, but you always have that "no, no it isn't cause I say so" pool to go, to don't you?
Herm you didnt give an answer yourself you do what you always do. give a facetious reply in hopes of a circular argument. Whatever though, beauty of the internet, believe what you want. You had answers and i didnt in hermy's world, way to go. I hope this gets you somewhere in life.

A penny for Joe D's thoughts right now.

How about John Hammond's sense of timing?

Does Hermy really think that simply adding Maggette makes this team alright?

Does Hermy really think that simply adding Maggette makes this team alright?


DO YOU THINK ADDING STUCKEY OR WHO THE HELL EVER DID?

I like Maggette a lot.

And shooting the picks away for vets would have made us better, yea i get it back and forth we go.





Herm you didnt give an answer yourself you do what you always do. give a facetious reply in hopes of a circular argument. Whatever though, beauty of the internet, believe what you want. You had answers and i didnt in hermy's world, way to go. I hope this gets you somewhere in life.


LOL! I SAY SOMETHING IS THE SAME, YOU SAY IT ISN'T, I SAY IT IS, SO YOU SAY IT IS. I SAW THAT ON BUGS BUNNY ONE TIME. YOU SIR (AND NOT MY COMPUTER, I MEAN YOU, SOME DOPE AT A KEYBOARD) MAKE ME LAUGH.

EDIT-DUCK SEASON, RABBIT SEASON, DUCK SEASON, RABBIT SEASON, RABBIT SEASON, DUCK SEASON......BLAM!

I like Maggette a lot.


I JUST PICKED "TALENTED, POSSIBLY AVAILABLE PLAYER X".

Great thread.

It's still not too late to swat it.

I second that.

Do caps indicate yelling?

Dumbest thread ever.

Do caps indicate yelling?

THEY INDICATE THE PLAYOFFS.

DO YOU THINK ADDING STUCKEY OR WHO THE HELL EVER DID?

So neither move would have made a difference and you are complaining about going with youth over age?

LOL! I SAY SOMETHING IS THE SAME, YOU SAY IT ISN'T, I SAY IT IS, SO YOU SAY IT IS.
That sticky icky has your brain fried, You tried to run to the "well its the same as the other thing you said" rhetoric for the sake of rhetoric ...When all i said is that Pops would have their attention. Doesnt mean we win anything. I do think the team needs more discipline to be more focused. I "think" that would make a difference. But I do see them responding to discipline since they have before. I cant say for sure that it equals wins, just better discipline. And its not like they haven't performed more focused well under discipline before in previous regimes.

You insinuated that trading our picks for vets would lead to playoff wins we arent getting right now. I think thats not so clear cut. Either way get what you want out of it Herm.


YOU SIR (AND NOT MY COMPUTER, I MEAN YOU, SOME DOPE AT A KEYBOARD) MAKE ME LAUGH.
Its still your computer. I reiterate you dont know me. Believe what you want is on the other side. Toke up and go wild with it. :)



EDIT-DUCK SEASON, RABBIT SEASON, DUCK SEASON, RABBIT SEASON, RABBIT SEASON, DUCK SEASON......BLAM!

LOL! I SAY SOMETHING IS THE SAME, YOU SAY IT ISN'T, I SAY IT IS, SO YOU SAY IT IS.
Dont try to get into stand up.

#8

0iXKU68LZQI

^ oh does that bring back good memories.

Man, that team was just acrobatic as all hell. Way better than these lazy piles of shit today.