i really hope stern gets his way and gets that second year of college mandatory. while its nice to see all this ridiculous talent in the ncaas, it almost feels wrong, just knowing that anyone i actually get to know about will go streight to the nba.

but i agree, lots of talent this draft. especially someone looking for a combo guard.

Stern wants 2 years NCAA b4 they can play in the NBA?

So what happens to the poor kids that can't make it some of these colleges?

If you can go to the military at 18, you damn sure should be able to go play for the NBA.

i really hope stern gets his way and gets that second year of college mandatory.

Yeah, Bob Knight (or was it Vitale? Either way, both agreed) had a good idea: let the kids who want to go to the NBA straight out of HS go, but make the kids who choose to go to college go for a mandatory 2 or 3 years.

I don't understand why these kids don't go overseas. Playing in college is awful for their careers.

I don't understand why these kids don't go overseas. Playing in college is awful for their careers.

this is the most ridiculous post ever to appear on these boards.

2 years would be interesting.

Imagine college basketball this year.
Oden, Conley and Cook still at OSU. (though if Oden had still gotten injured it would have just been Conley and Cook - still enough to make them 5-6 games better and put them in the tourney)
Durant still at Texas. They would have been a 1 seed for sure.
Wright still at UNC. Wow.
Young and Crittenton at Georgia Tech would have made that team different.


Now imagine next year's tourney with Beasley, Rose, Mayo, Gordon, Love, etc. The tourney would be filled with stars. The draft would be packed the following year. Yes, I realize the same guys will still exist from one year to the next and it doesn't matter if you move them back a year or not, but giving a guy two years to develop and have fans be able to see them is huge.

Just my take. I agree with Stern. I realize it screws some kids, but there are kids who have made millions in the past that had no business being picked where they were, which also screwed some other kids.

Don't you think people wish they would have seen Kwame Brown in college for 2 years? He would have been picked in the 2nd round - not #1 overall.

i think kwame would have still be a first rounder, just not lottery. i also think he would have probably been a better player for it.

he wasnt ready for the pros, physically somewhat, but more mentally. jordan calling him a pussy didnt help. 2 years of confidence building could have been all the difference.

But didn't Stern have a huge hurdle with the courts on the 'right to work' something or other. I mean if you are 18, you are an adult and obviously a citizen. They should be able to apply wherever they want to work.

Thats just legal bull.

I agree from a fans point of view.

this is the most ridiculous post ever to appear on these boards.


Yeah, you've been mighty ignorant about this thing from day one. The abusive system we've set up has us falling behind around the world. If my kid was the stud hooper the first thing I'd do is get him out of this country, away from these shoe companies, and begin training him for a career.

College basketball is great for kids who want to play basketball while they go to college. Not for basketball players who are at college age.

2 years would be interesting.

Imagine college basketball this year.
Oden, Conley and Cook still at OSU. (though if Oden had still gotten injured
...then he would've been screwed because his draft stock would've plummeted, and he probably wouldn't have gotten world-class care on his aging body. It'd be a tragic story that everyone would profit from except Oden himself.

Euro teams will start recruiting American kids if we don't have anything better for them to do. If I'm 18 and have a legitimate pro basketball game (not a LeBron level, but MoEvans level), and my two choices were:

1) two years of college ball for free, running the risk of injuries where I don't get paid, in a program whose job isn't first and foremost to churn out pro ballers and has lots of rules and hassles

-or-

2) two years of pro ball at, say, a million euros/year + expenses, insurance policies in case of injury, working in organizations specifically geared for developing younger pro ballers

I'd pick #2. This isn't close. Hell, I'd probably get a better real-world education living abroad than I would taking two years of geography for athletes at a university.

i think you guys are too far removed from your days at the U playing college hoops.

those are good, good times. your the king of campus, slutty girls are throwing themselves at you, dudes are getting your drinks for you at the student union, boosters are showering you with cash.

guys typically go to europe as a last resort, and leave as quickly as possible.

those clubs dont want two years of american talent.

carmello cried when he left syracuse, not because hes a bia, but because guys love playing ball.

think about who is making these kinds of decisions for an 18 year old kid... ill tell you its not the kid alot of the time, nor is it someone who is really interested in that kid's best interest.

stern is protecting these kids, if only from the sharks that surround them. its not solely the nba and the ncaa's interest to keep these kids in school.

stern is protecting these kids, if only from the sharks that surround them.

Totally disagree.

He's out to protect his owners from themselves (making bad draft picks based on one year of college ball and potential).

He (along with the union) is also out to provide more jobs/$ for vets by keeping the kids out for an extra year.

I agree with Glenn. He wants to make sure that guys like Melo, Wade, etc are ready for the refs to make them instant stars. He doesn't want young kids that aren't ready to be placed on a pedastal and instead allow good "teams" to consistantly beat them and keep them from carry their team to the finals when they are only 23.

I may be the asshole here, but I don't think Stern gives a shit about any of the players in the NBA unless they average 20+ points. The only people Stern really cares about are his Superstars and his Future Superstars.

i may have been going a little overboard with the 'stern is protecting'. its obviously his self interest of drafting established stars and weeding out the busts that drives this.

but that doesnt mean that these kids also arent also getting protected.

and exploited for the cost of a scholarship.

are lawyers who have to go to law school equally exploited?

are lawyers who have to go to law school equally exploited?



Can I go to college (or not) for 2 years, never play basketball, and still be eligible for the NBA draft? Because I can not choose to be a plumber for 8 years then try cases. It would seem you have a silly comparison. I will give you the option of erasing your post and I will edit this one if you can come up with something a little more thought out.

nope.

its pretty routine for a company to require experience. sometimes its related field, sometimes it isnt. if dude thinks being a plumber for 2 years will help his career, then cool. or he can go to europe. or, god forbid, he can travel the road that probably 99% of american born nba players have followed and go to school for a little bit.

The NBA requires no experience Diddy.

yea, whats the problem with investing millions of dollars into an unknown commodity with zero experience. not to get all kstat on you, but this is ridiculous. why shouldnt the owners have some protection?

I don't understand your experience/protection angle. HS kids don't play basketball? Seniors in college don't bust on big contracts? It's not like this years rookie class is something great thanks to all that extra time.

It's simply a perception issue for the league, nothing more. People don't like Lebron-in-highschool coverage on Sports Center all day. Stern doesn't want some team sticking it's finger in the honeypot and getting caught fucking with some 16 year old kid. I would suspect that HS drafted kids have a much better sucess ratio than college ones at getting a second deal. He's protecting nothing but his image.

I would suspect that HS drafted kids have a much better sucess ratio than college ones at getting a second deal
Are we talking first round high school kids? Lottery high school kids? Because if you're including college guys going in the end of the second round that don't have a shot in hell of making the league, that's going to throw off the curve a little bit.

Are we talking first round high school kids? Lottery high school kids? Because if you're including college guys going in the end of the second round that don't have a shot in hell of making the league, that's going to throw off the curve a little bit.


Betcha not. How many college kids go in the 2nd round and get another deal? Amir, Rashard Lewis,Blatche, monta, Louis Williams all got one, and there haven't been 20 drafted that low. That is an INCREDIBLE success rate.

Hell, I bet 2nd round HSers have a 3 to 1 advantage in getting a 2nd deal.

I wouldn't be suprised if 2nd round HSers have a better shot than college kids drafted in the bottom half of the first round.

But its prolly cuz they haven't got the PT and need more development. Teams don't want to give up that potential and the high value of that pick.

But I agree with Herm on most of this.

But its prolly cuz they haven't got the PT and need more development. Teams don't want to give up that potential and the high value of that pick.

But I agree with Herm on most of this.

To an extent, but the guys I listed aren't just potential guys. They're playing and helping playoff teams.

guys typically go to europe as a last resort, and leave as quickly as possible.
We're not talking typical players here. We're talking folks who, out of high school, would be seriously able to play at a pro level. Why on earth should a Dwight, LeBron, Moses, or Wilt have to wait a couple years? What about Kobe, KG, and TMac, who weren't stars right out of HS, but were certainly NBA-rotation ready?

Remember, historically there were very few sure-fire players like that who were drafted out of high school. What changed was the cost of failure. Rookie scale contracts make the penalty for a bad pick lower. So, owners started gambling and swinging for the fences, and that's where you get Kwame Brown as #1 overall. The easiest way to address this is to make the cost of failure higher for drafting high schoolers. If an owner signs a 19 year old, they must get 3 years guaranteed. For an 18 year old, they must get 4 years guaranteed. Fix the structural problem.


stern is protecting these kids, if only from the sharks that surround them. its not solely the nba and the ncaa's interest to keep these kids in school.
You don't protect someone by leaving them alone. You protect them by guiding them directly. The D-League should be a real alternative to these players.

Can I ask a tangential question?

Was Lebron not ready for the NBA his senior year of high school? What kept him from skipping that and going to the NBA a year earlier? Lack of adequate hype? (I'm asking that seriously)

Don't you have to be 18 to work full time?

I stand by what i said earlier...Stern has a legal hurdle to adopt a by-lay or something that directly violates 'right to work' laws. Thats my read on it fwiw.

edit...Its damn near like age discrimination but against youngsters.

Don't you have to be 18 to work full time?

I stand by what i said earlier...Stern has a legal hurdle to adopt a by-lay or something that directly violates 'right to work' laws. Thats my read on it fwiw.

edit...Its damn near like age discrimination but against youngsters.

I think since the new age is a part of the CBA, there is no recourse. Also, I believe there is no age discrimination under the age of 45.

Can I ask a tangential question?

Was Lebron not ready for the NBA his senior year of high school? What kept him from skipping that and going to the NBA a year earlier? Lack of adequate hype? (I'm asking that seriously)


The old CBA demanded that the player have a diploma or have exhausted HS eligibility.

So essentially the age limit was already in place, just raised.

Mxy, do you think there would still be a fear of losing players to Europe if the old age limit was restored?

The fear would be less, but only a little less. Top Euro teams are getting more competitive, as the 2004 Olympics proved. And, the buying power of the Euro relative to the U.S. dollar is going up at the rate of 10% per year. If I'm a top European team, why not get talented Americans for cheap if I can? If I'm an American sports agent, why not pursue mo' money for my customers and myself? Sure, the NBA has megamillions contracts for elite players, but that's a crap shoot with the way the contract rules work.

It'd take one McDonald's All American player going straight to Europe to open the flood gates.

But then, isn't scrapping the age limit just a stop gap?

We're not there JUST yet, but the writing was on the wall. Europeans were gonna pay decaying CWebb $12 million (after taxes) for two years. That's some mad money. We're gonna see more of that.

fool asks a legit question:

lebron was playing in pickup games vs stackhouse in his prime and other legit nba players.

why have any age rule at all? whats wrong with bringing a 15 year old into the nba culture? i cant imagine a better group of guys for a 15 year old with millions of dollars at his disposal to hang out with than nba players.

and the europe connection is a non starter.

no one goes to europe unless its a last resort. its not a glorious road. its not what kids dream of growing up. and if you think those clubs in europe are going to spend millions of dollars on kids just so they can make themselves an nba farm team, i would think again.

most likely stern will get his way with a 2nd year mandatory for his age rule. mostly because there really is no one to voice the opposition. most likely nbapa only uses their stance as a baragaining chip, anyway.

15 years olds can't work full time.

I think since the new age is a part of the CBA, there is no recourse. Also, I believe there is no age discrimination under the age of 45.

You can't have a CBA, or any other agreement that violates laws. I'm pretty sure there are laws out there Governing these things.

If an owner signs a 19 year old, they must get 3 years guaranteed. For an 18 year old, they must get 4 years guaranteed.
The only flaw I can see with this is that some kids might come out early thinking "I can get an extra year guaranteed". Otherwise, it seems like a legit possibility.

Joe Nuxall pitched for the Reds at age 15

Bunch of 15 year old tennis players. 15 year old chick golfers. But we can't let young black people hang out with younger black people.

When was that, just after the Tea Party?

OT...Cincinnatah is a team to watch this year.

Bunch of 15 year old tennis players. 15 year old chick golfers. But we can't let young black people hang out with younger black people.

Good points. But are they employed?

Good points. But are they employed?


Just discussing the social aspect. They're certainly "working full time". Not sure how Stock Car contracts work, but those guys start young professionally outside of NASCAR which stopped under 18 guys when Kyle Bush was coming up. No doubt that's a more dangerous situation than going to a strip club with Stephen Jackson.

theres a big difference between golf and basketball and also joe nuchall pitching 2/3 of an inning 70 years ago.

lol at you trying to call me a racist because its one of the most godawful ideas in the world to suggest matching a 15 year old with nba players.

i didnt even want to take the whole legal / not legal thing, since its kind of outside the point. the cba decides age minimums, im just talking about sensibility.

i suggest that letting these kids (thats what you are) grow up a little, and let them get to the geezerly age of 20 before you let them in. hell, id go for 22, mysefl. im just wondering if there is a 'too young'?

I would let them play at about 12 if it were up to me. There is no difference after performance between golf and basketball.

How about 17 year old pro baseball players? Basketball players play pro at 17 in foreign nations.

Yeah, there are 0 reasons for thinking a 17 year old can't play hoopty for money but being selfish and wanting to watch him in college. An 18 year old is a full grown man.

we'll have to agree to disagree.

no one goes to europe unless its a last resort. its not a glorious road. its not what kids dream of growing up. and if you think those clubs in europe are going to spend millions of dollars on kids just so they can make themselves an nba farm team, i would think again.
Kids don't dream of making money right away and going to exotic places? That's news to me. Keep in mind that the NBA is going out of its way to limit what rookies make -- nothing until age 19 and maybe 20, first year and up to 4 years at a salary potentially lower than your worth. Europe doesn't have anything like rookie scale contracts, and is much better able to pay players what they're worth WHEN they're worth it. I'm 18 years old. Do I want $1-2 million bucks NOW, or wait and MAYBE I get paid (or maybe I get injured in a car accident)?

Europe already is an NBA farm team. Hell, the only thing that prohibits them from being MORE of an NBA farm team is that they can pay people enough to where NBA self-imposed rules make it hard for them move over. The limits on buyouts, on rookie scale contracts, etc. preclude our exploiting them as much as we'd want to. Alex fucking Acker would have to take a pay cut to play at this point. Luis Scola had to take a pay cut to play in the U.S. Three years ago, Orlando couldn't get a fucking lottery pick to come over because Europe was paying him more, and he made out like a bandit by NOT coming here.

I think the writing is on the wall.

Ironically, I've been wondering if it might be possible/feasible for an outside enterprise (not the NBA) to construct a domestic, "NBA alternative" league for non-draft eligible players.

Could they salaries be attractive enough to pull some of these kids out of colleges and directly out of high school?

Could there be a successful business model for something like this?

It would be even better if they played their "season" (maybe 8-10 markets/teams) during a time of year when there is no other basketball alternative being played (which would mean July through Sept/October). The problem with that might be when the players are ready to jump from this new league to the NBA, their first season they will have basically been playing for solid full year, continuously.

Don't get this confused with a minor league/CBA/NBDL type thing, this would be a professional league for players too young to qualify for the NBA draft.

Thoughts?

Like 16-19 year olds? Kind of like what they do in Europe?

#90 = threadkilla

I tried to roll with it. Apparently it wasn't enough. I don't have that SDB appeal around here.

Ironically, I've been wondering if it might be possible/feasible for an outside enterprise (not the NBA) to construct a domestic, "NBA alternative" league for non-draft eligible players.

Could they salaries be attractive enough to pull some of these kids out of colleges and directly out of high school?

Could there be a successful business model for something like this?

It would be even better if they played their "season" (maybe 8-10 markets/teams) during a time of year when there is no other basketball alternative being played (which would mean July through Sept/October). The problem with that might be when the players are ready to jump from this new league to the NBA, their first season they will have basically been playing for solid full year, continuously.

Don't get this confused with a minor league/CBA/NBDL type thing, this would be a professional league for players too young to qualify for the NBA draft.

Thoughts?

Maybe

Thanks, Tahoe.

Ironically, I've been wondering if it might be possible/feasible for an outside enterprise (not the NBA) to construct a domestic, "NBA alternative" league for non-draft eligible players.

Could they salaries be attractive enough to pull some of these kids out of colleges and directly out of high school?

Could there be a successful business model for something like this?

It would be even better if they played their "season" (maybe 8-10 markets/teams) during a time of year when there is no other basketball alternative being played (which would mean July through Sept/October). The problem with that might be when the players are ready to jump from this new league to the NBA, their first season they will have basically been playing for solid full year, continuously.

Don't get this confused with a minor league/CBA/NBDL type thing, this would be a professional league for players too young to qualify for the NBA draft.

Thoughts?

when stern announced the age limit, i recall a certain super agent claiming he would open a basketball acadamy so teenagers wouldnt have to endure the ncaa's, and was certain it would be popular.

as far as i know, never went off the ground.

nothing has a worse track record than alternatives to pro sports leagues. even if these things put up money for talent, it would be SO far away, becuase no one is going to jeapordize their nba future. so it would take more than $$. they would need coaching, training, a good level of competition, and a track record of getting talent to the nba.

now, all of that is an obvious road block and explains why these leagues never work. but beyond that, there is the 'fun' part of the equation.

i dont know why everyone seems to be assuming that these kids dont want to go to school. if you took a survey of D1 talent and asked if they were satisfied with their experience in college hoops, i bet the responses would be through the roof positive. look at a dude like oj mayo, pretty much as self agrandizing as it gets, and you'd think the antithesis to college hoops. my understanding is he's loved his college experience, even talk he might stay (yea right, i know), but he should tell you something.

kids like college ball, its just the way it is. its why the ncaa's have nothing to fear from these semi-pro leagues, and have nothing to fear from kids going to europe. let me know the next time anyone of even remote worth chooses europe pro-ball over the ncaa's. it will not happen. those clubs dont want kids for a year or two, and the kids dont want them. stern could make it a 4 year rule and it would still be the same.

http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/7996718/Sources:-NBA,-NCAA-hope-to-impose-new-age-limit


NBA commissioner David Stern and NCAA president Myles Brand are in agreement that both sides would benefit from a rule that would require players to stay in college for at least two years before leaving early for the NBA.

Now they just have to convince everybody else.

According to sources, the proposal would still need to be passed through the NBA Players Association.

"It's a big step for the owners and the commissioner to say they're ready to bargain in good faith to get the rule passed," said one college coach who wished to remain anonymous. "The NBA is willing to give up something to get this rule passed; we just don't know what it is yet."

The NBA adopted a 19-year-old age limit through the collective bargaining agreement which expires in 2010-11.

If the new rule goes into effect, it would eliminate the one-and-done players such as Greg Oden and Kevin Durant and force them to spend at least two years in college.

Thoughts?

The union has to approve it still, but I hate it.

I just vant to see the best players no matter how old they are.

Merge this with the thread were we already talked about it.

Maybe Hermy and Diddy have some thoughts on this?

Merge this with the thread were we already talked about it.
O shit I must have missed that...link me?

Sorry guys.

No prob.

You want I should move those posts here?

I think they were in the "Who is going #1" thread.

who wants to bet the nba trades the dresscode for the second year? david stern's got these guys by the balls.

Someone needs to persuade me that teenagers like LeBron James and Dwight Howard in the NBA are a problem before I buy that restricting as a solution.

what would dwight howard's post game look like with two years of development in college. he's in his 4th year and he still lives off his freakish size/athletecism. now, dwight obviously couldnt have improved his own lot by going to college. he went #1 and he's making the max. but his game probably would have been much better because of it. and isnt that what its all about, as a fan? this league's long term interest is in giving the fans what they want.

lebron is a pretty big exception. we might be waiting 50 years before we see him again. i admit he would have been doing little more than serving time in college, but hes way more rare than 1 in a million.

how about a guy like mike conley jr. though? this guy was an absolute stud, and joy to watch, in college. he goes to the nba and... gets burried on the bench for almost the entire year. the joys of early entry. MCJ's are 50 times more prevelent than the alternative. imo, conley isnt that far off from paul, who came out after his sophomore year. how much better of a rookie year would mcjr have had if it was next year? wouldnt watching him light up ncaa's be better than watching him watch damon stoudamire?

you get these guys into the nba too early and they lose time to develop fundamentals, to appreciate the team game and winning basketball, and your just dealing with a millionaire kid who is even more immature than otherwise.

what would dwight howard's post game look like with two years of development in college. he's in his 4th year and he still lives off his freakish size/athletecism. now, dwight obviously couldnt have improved his own lot by going to college. he went #1 and he's making the max. but his game probably would have been much better because of it. and isnt that what its all about, as a fan? this league's long term interest is in giving the fans what they want.
Having Dwight Howard for less years is in the interest of the NBA? Do tell.


lebron is a pretty big exception. we might be waiting 50 years before we see him again. i admit he would have been doing little more than serving time in college, but hes way more rare than 1 in a million.
Or, we might be waiting until Carmelo Anthony, two picks down. Tell me why he waits until 20, again? Dude wins an NCAA in his first season -- you don't think he would've been an NBA player at 18?


how about a guy like mike conley jr. though? this guy was an absolute stud, and joy to watch, in college. he goes to the nba and... gets burried on the bench for almost the entire year. the joys of early entry.
Conley started 40+ games, and is doing decently well for the minutes he's been given. That's especially true given that he's a PG. Would he have been better with a couple more years? Probably. But he's already having some good games against the likes of Steve Nash, just last night. A quick look at a fantasy site show's he's won as many matchups against starters as he's lost. He's certainly capable of playing at an NBA level in his rookie season. If you can be an NBA-level backup, why not play in the NBA? Hell, an NBA backup will get more game-time than an NCAA starter -- more games, games are longer, etc.


MCJ's are 50 times more prevelent than the alternative. imo, conley isnt that far off from paul, who came out after his sophomore year. how much better of a rookie year would mcjr have had if it was next year? wouldnt watching him light up ncaa's be better than watching him watch damon stoudamire?
That's good for the NCAA, which appears to be your interest -- watching some dream matchup. What's good for the NBA? What's good for the player? And he's watching Damon Stoudamire play with another team now.


you get these guys into the nba too early and they lose time to develop fundamentals, to appreciate the team game and winning basketball, and your just dealing with a millionaire kid who is even more immature than otherwise.
Give a few million to most people of any age and immaturity will show. Hell, give people a chance for much less money and many will turn whacked out. Look at most of the reality TV shows out there.

As far as developing fundamentals, often college teams are limited. Maxiell, for example, should've been developed as a hybrid forward, but he was made into a PF/C because Cinci didn't have anyone who was good and tall to play with. He got lucky, someone like Eric Hicks who was in Maxiell's same boat at the same program did not. Should Stuckey have been developed as a PG? Did we save him before it was too late and he became an undersized SG?

whats good for the nba is having these guys come into the league better marketted, better developed, and more mature. thats pretty obvious.

kwame brown. thats a killer. #1 pick, wasnt shit. he stole money, made the nba look like a bunch of assholes.

the #1 pick should be prestigous and be a guy that can help market the league.

you use that on a 17 or 18 year old playing against kids that look like me and who knows. the system worked for decades well, letting HS filter into college, filter into pros.

a pro scout has no business at a hs game. its embarrassing.

dwight howard with a post game would be better for the nba in the long run. rather than just a great player in his time, dwight could be an all-time great.

carmello would not have won an ncaa championship his frosh year w/ the age limit.

mcj's rookie year has been terrible. his team sucks, and he has been MIA.

durant's has been worse. kid still had a ton of developing to do, rather than go through the best learning system for basketball in the world (ncaa tourny) hes getting his teeth kicked in everynight. im not a fan of his, but if i were i would be depressed by his 60 loss rookie season.

kind of just an assortment of ideas, but im at work. pretty much, i see no pros and only cons to letting HSers in.

a pro scout has no business at a hs game. its embarrassing.


Why not stop allowing the army recruiters to visit then?

Hell, why not make it illegal for anyone under 21 to earn a living?

That should do it.

whats good for the nba is having these guys come into the league better marketted, better developed, and more mature. thats pretty obvious.
That's not obvious at all. Would having a Kobe for 2-4 less years have helped the Lakers? Would having a KG for 2-4 less year have helped Minny?


kwame brown. thats a killer. #1 pick, wasnt shit. he stole money, made the nba look like a bunch of assholes.
It's not hard to make Michael Jordan look like an asshole.


the #1 pick should be prestigous and be a guy that can help market the league.

you use that on a 17 or 18 year old playing against kids that look like me and who knows. the system worked for decades well, letting HS filter into college, filter into pros.
Yeah, until those kids decided to have the gall to want to get paid what they were worth. That's when owners fucked the system in a way that made it cheap to gamble on young players. I don't think adding more restrictions will fix the fundamental problem. If you can't afford to pay your lottery pick, then trade him to someone who can.


a pro scout has no business at a hs game. its embarrassing.

dwight howard with a post game would be better for the nba in the long run. rather than just a great player in his time, dwight could be an all-time great.
Dwight's got more post game than Alonzo Mourning did coming out of a quality 4-year program. Why develop a post game when your athleticism will carry you through against weaker competition?


carmello would not have won an ncaa championship his frosh year w/ the age limit.
We're talking about raising the limit to 20, so now you're talking about the potential of a frosh leading their team to a championship but not being able to get into the NBA. If I were in that situation, I would sit rather than play at 19 and potentially get injured out of millions.


mcj's rookie year has been terrible. his team sucks, and he has been MIA.
And you assume it'd be better if he hung out at OSU against inferior talent? He's getting a chance to build his skills. Not every high pick turned out to be a superstar, even when they were 4-year players. :)


durant's has been worse. kid still had a ton of developing to do, rather than go through the best learning system for basketball in the world (ncaa tourny) hes getting his teeth kicked in everynight. im not a fan of his, but if i were i would be depressed by his 60 loss rookie season.
And he's getting better -- 48% shooting post All-Star break. Given Seattle's ownership issues, they would've sucked no matter who they drafted. When your next best player is Kevin Wilcox, you're not winning games. Anyone remember that LeBron and MJ had more talent and still had lots of losing to do before starting to win?


kind of just an assortment of ideas, but im at work. pretty much, i see no pros and only cons to letting HSers in.
In my mind, if you're good enough to be an NBA backup today, you should be allowed to be in the NBA. I don't care what age you are.

Next step = mandating which classes these prospective NBA players have to take.
I seriously would not be surprised.
Stern would love it if they had to take economics classes and classes that would teach them how to be presentable, accountable, and responsible. Anything that makes them more likely to fit comfortably in the mold he's going for.

I see both sides to this. Sometimes I like the idea of moving it to 20, other times I don't.

And you assume it'd be better if he hung out at OSU against inferior talent? He's getting a chance to build his skills. Not every high pick turned out to be a superstar, even when they were 4-year players. :)


At least if players were forced to stay two years, the talent level would not be SO inferior.

Just a question:

Do any of you see a problem with the NFL age limit?

Just a question:

Do any of you see a problem with the NFL age limit?

I don't like it one bit. AD should have been able to come out after his freshman year (or before) if he was ready.

On one hand, it's obvious that people in their early 20s don't know shit and don't know that they don't know shit. Sorry young fellas, but it's true. A few extra months of college might not hurt them, and could even deliver a much-needed growth of maturity and understanding.

On the other hand...

* These guys are college athletes. The time they spend in college isn't going to do shit for their maturity, because they have most things handed to them on a silver platter. More college would do wonders for all of us, but we're talking about People Who Are Not Like Us.

* Secondly, I really dislike the NCAA, and the fact that so many old men are making a very comfortable living off of what is essentially the unpaid labor of young men. Add to that the fact that so many of the old men are white and so many of the young men are black, and that's really vile. Striking a deal with the NBA to prevent their players from going pro is obviously their disgusting way of clinging to their pool of slave labor.

* Thirdly, I think anyone who's been paying attention realizes that playing college ball for an extra year won't do shit to prepare you for the NBA, and in the case of the upper tier of talented athletes, it may actually harm them by allowing them to develop bad habits and worse attitudes.

Basically, I think the future of development for elite level athletes is not in the world of college. The NBA could really be showing the way here, and I think they're shitting on this great opportunity by doing a solid for their buddies in the NCAA.

kwame brown. thats a killer. #1 pick, wasnt shit. he stole money, made the nba look like a bunch of assholes.

the #1 pick should be prestigous and be a guy that can help market the league.


Not age limit or anything else can ever guarantee that. For that matter, stealing money isn't limited to rookie draft picks. Anyone with size is going to be overpaid no matter how underskilled he is, that's the NBA. Kwame will keep stealing money until he retires and is permanently enshrined in the ctc hall of fame.

Or maybe millions of wasted dollars is just part of the package for anyone named Kwame.

Here's the way I see it. The NBA, like the NFL, has set an age limit where they think the majority of young players will be mature enough to contribute. Generally, most kids before the age of 19 or 20 just aren't physically or mentally developed enough to make a solid contribution. There are some exceptions to that rule of course. For every LeBron James, there are two players out there who are too young and fragile.

If there shouldn't be an age limit, then why couldn't LeBron just come out of high school as a Junior? Everyone knew about him then, and would have drafted him then. Why can't players just forgo high school if they're ready? Obviously that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but they are setting an age limit as to when they think players are NBA ready.

They might miss out on the next LeBron James, but he would have been drafted in 2005 instead of 2003. And how fun would it have been to watch him play in college? I would like to think that players can grow up a little in college first, even though I know that doesn't always happen. And in a perfect world, they would even attend classes and take their own exams.

Also B-Diddy was right about the owners. Why should they have to invest millions of dollars in something that is unproven? I understand nothing is proven until you're in the NBA, but you'll see a little bit better idea of what you're getting when you let the player play with equal competition in D-1 College Basketball. Kwame Brown would not have been the top pick, DeSagana Diop would not have gone in the lottery, Darko wouldn't have been drafted, Amare would have been the #1 pick, etc...

I wouldn't hate it if there's no age limit, I just would think it's better if there is.

Also B-Diddy was right about the owners. Why should they have to invest millions of dollars in something that is unproven? I understand nothing is proven until you're in the NBA, but you'll see a little bit better idea of what you're getting when you let the player play with equal competition in D-1 College Basketball. Kwame Brown would not have been the top pick, DeSagana Diop would not have gone in the lottery, Darko wouldn't have been drafted, Amare would have been the #1 pick, etc...


They don't HAVE TO choose the youngins if they don't want to take the bigger risk.

I know that they are more rare than they used to be, but there still are 4-year college players available if teams want a "safer", more experienced player. If you are at the top of the draft and the highest valued players are all too young for your liking as an owner/GM, why not trade down, acquire some assets (future picks/players), and then take yourself a Tayshaun Prince-type player in the mid-late first round?

Let another team take that risk, if they are so inclined.

* Secondly, I really dislike the NCAA, and the fact that so many old men are making a very comfortable living off of what is essentially the unpaid labor of young men. Add to that the fact that so many of the old men are white and so many of the young men are black, and that's really vile. Striking a deal with the NBA to prevent their players from going pro is obviously their disgusting way of clinging to their pool of slave labor.


:cogent:

If the interests of the individual athletes were represented at all, there'd be no eligibility loss for getting drafted or paid.

I understand but that's not the way the game works. Owners have to take risks, and I think the risk is too much when they don't know what they're getting. If they get a sample size of two years of college basketball, at least they'll have an educated guess.

I'm not saying I feel bad for these rich owners, I just think there has to be a better way of evaluating talent. I love seeing Dwight Howard and LeBron in the league early, but they need to pay me to watch Kwame Brown and Robert Swift play.

At least if players were forced to stay two years, the talent level would not be SO inferior.
Or go to Europe, but I've talked about that enough in the "who's going #1" thread.

:cogent:

If the interests of the individual athletes were represented at all, there'd be no eligibility loss for getting drafted or paid.
I've brought this point up quite a few times around here. Treat it like the NHL draft. Howard was drafted by the Wings, then spent a few years playing at Maine developing his skills and maturity until he was good enough to make the jump to the Wings system. So you draft a guy like Gerald Green, then you let him spend a year or two in college developing a bit more maturity and working on his game, you keep a close eye on him, then when you think he's ready, you bring him along to your NBA squad.

I understand but that's not the way the game works. Owners have to take risks, and I think the risk is too much when they don't know what they're getting.

I think what you've stated there is the exact reason that Stern is pushing this. It's an attempt to protect the owners from themselves.

To me, the draft is all about evaluating talent and weighing risks.

If you work the potential draftee out, and after seeing him with your own eyes aren't convinced that he is worth the risk, you don't pick him.

Teams with the best scouting and evaluation staffs will produce better draft results. Personal responsibility reigns. A free market emerges. Dogs and cats live together in peace.

Too bad they have no way of evaluating if a player is a pussy (Darko).

I understand but that's not the way the game works. Owners have to take risks, and I think the risk is too much when they don't know what they're getting. If they get a sample size of two years of college basketball, at least they'll have an educated guess.

I'm not saying I feel bad for these rich owners, I just think there has to be a better way of evaluating talent. I love seeing Dwight Howard and LeBron in the league early, but they need to pay me to watch Kwame Brown and Robert Swift play.
So...go ahead a draft them, pay them bubkis, and send 'em to the D-League.

The OJ Mayo situation brings this discussion back around again.

Here you have a player that, in the absence of some artificial NBA age limit, would have gone directly to the NBA and not bothered with college.

He looked at every avenue possible to get around going to college, from playing in Europe to even considering the fucking Harlem Globetrotters. But in the end, playing the mandatory one year of college ball gave him the most exposure to the NBA.

So now it's time to choose a school. To maximize his exposure, he chooses a school in a major market (LA) and a team that is coached by a former NBA head coach. Since he has no loyalty to the program, and is only planning on being there one year (against his will), he's not concerned that by taking money and gifts up the wazoo, he has just placed USC's program in jeopardy of serious NCAA sanctions/penalties. The school will be punished, the coach could get punished and he'll get off scott-free on his way to the NBA lottery.

All of these damages to USC, it's coaches and program could have been avoided if they had just let the kid go play where he wanted to be in the first place.

Now they want to add another year of limbo to the equation? All that will do is give these NBA-bound kids another year to rake in the gifts and cash, and bring down even more people and programs around them.

Who exactly has been "helped" by forcing OJ Mayo to go to college?

He got an education and we got to have Lindsey Hunter take up a roster spot. Everyone wins.

technically he never had to go to class, just don't go the first semester and they put you on probation, but you can still play. second semseter don't go to class either, then jump to the NBA and totally avoid all college classroom experience.

technically he never had to go to class, just don't go the first semester and they put you on probation, but you can still play. second semseter don't go to class either, then jump to the NBA and totally avoid all college classroom experience.
Exactly! It's good to keep your priorities in order. Because that's what success is about, isn't it? Avoiding classroom experience.

USC was foolish to accept him knowing his background. If anyone here could put together his motives, then so could USC. They just ignored it, so its their fault in doing so.


USC coach should have known more about O.J. Mayo

By Jerry Brewer

Seattle Times staff columnist

PREV of NEXT


From the moment O.J. Mayo targeted USC, the potential for trouble loomed. Coach Tim Floyd didn't recruit the basketball prodigy; Mayo recruited him. Floyd wasn't allowed to call the kid; Mayo called him. It was an odd, shady alliance, but for victories and recognition, Floyd went along with this dangerous game.

And now Floyd is suffering the consequences. Mayo has unleashed a torrent of scandal on a school still running from Reggie Bush's mistakes.

In a clean, thorough and indisputable investigation, ESPN revealed Sunday that Mayo has been living like a professional athlete for several years. ESPN charges that Rodney Guillory, a Los Angeles event promoter, has been funneling cash and gifts to Mayo during the past four years, serving as a runner for Bill Duffy Associates Sports Management.

This is what happens when you allow an athlete to take over your program.

After the NBA invoked its 19-year-old age limit, Mayo needed a college to rent, a safe house to spend a year until he became eligible for the draft. USC was the ideal rental property: great location, great exposure, great need for star power. So, like any opportunistic tenant, Mayo snatched up the school.

The Trojans shouldn't be chagrined at this news. It was the most telegraphed incident in recent memory.

Floyd celebrated the story of Mayo's nonrecruitment with a gush this past season. If you recall the tale, the coach was sitting in his office when, out of nowhere, a man came to talk to him about Mayo.

"O.J. wanted me to come here today," the man said, according to a New York Times story. "He wanted me to figure out who you are."

Forty-five minutes later, the man left. His name: Rodney Guillory.

Floyd should've kicked out Guillory the minute he heard his name. Eight years ago, Guillory had gotten former USC guard Jeff Trepagnier into trouble for paying for a flight. Trepagnier was suspended, but later he was cleared. Floyd wasn't at USC then. Nevertheless, the coach should've done enough research to know never to invite Guillory into his office.

Floyd ignored both logic and evidence, however. The most-hyped player of the 2007 class wanted to come to USC. That's all Floyd cared to know. With the integrity of his program at stake, he closed his eyes and welcomed Mayo. The entire university enabled Floyd's recklessness, too.

Why didn't anyone at USC say no? Plenty of other schools did. After the NBA age limit became official, I remember talking to two prominent college coaches about whether they would recruit Mayo. At the time, he was considered a package deal with his high school teammate, Bill Walker, who wound up going to Kansas State. Get those two, and you're a legit Final Four threat. So I floated the idea to the coaches.

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"It's not even a consideration," one coach said.

"You don't even understand how many problems that could cause," the other said.

Back then, there was much fear about Mayo's large circle of friends. There were whispers that he had already been bought, a common rumor about prep basketball stars. There was even speculation that he would skip college and play in the NBA developmental league for a year or play overseas or create some kind of shoe-sponsored traveling team.

I figured Mayo would never play an NCAA game. I figured I had a better chance of dunking on Dwight Howard.

Then he committed to USC. He became academically eligible with relative ease. And finally, when last season began, he was playing for the Trojans.

Actually, the Trojans were playing for him.

Battling critics all season, Mayo wound up having a good freshman year. The team didn't implode because of him, which was the fear, but it only performed well enough to make the NCAA tournament and exit in the first round. Still, Mayo cemented his NBA lottery-pick reputation and left the program on good terms.

Until this skeleton came tumbling onto the court.

Mayo isn't the only college athlete on the take; he's just the latest to get busted. The problem is so much bigger than him, but he's currently the face of scandal.

Although USC is playing the role of unknowing victim right now, it is at fault. It enabled Mayo to make a mockery of the system. It can't plead ignorance when a kid shows up on campus with a flat-screen television for his dorm room and enough clothes to make Giorgio Armani jealous.

Somehow, the Trojans have avoided NCAA punishment for Bush's misdeeds thus far. If the NCAA has any teeth remaining, it must do a better and quicker investigation into Mayo's improper benefits.

If there are no penalties, we won't even remember Mayo played for USC 10 years from now. And how's that for a sad commentary: Mayo will only have a USC legacy if the NCAA puts the Trojans on probation.

If a recruit ever targets Floyd again, he'd be wise to resist the temptation and remember what we all learned as children.

Don't open the door for strangers.

Jerry Brewer: 206-464-2277 or jbrewer@seattletimes.com. For his Extra Points blog, visit seattletimes.com/sports
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http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/jerrybrewer/2004409787_brewer13.html

To me, USC fucked themselves. Age limit be damned. They took a situation that hurt Mayo's idea of what he impatiently wanted, and made it their problem when they knew it could play out like that.

USC is not innocent, they should pay the price, no doubt.

But the age limit is what created the situation in the first place.

USC is not innocent, they should pay the price, no doubt.

But the age limit is what created the situation in the first place.
It created a situation. But imo not USC's situation. At least not directly enough for them to get off for being this utterly stupid. Especially coming off the Reggie Bush thing. It made things harder on OJ mayo because he wanted to play right away. Can't say i'm sympathetic to "play right away". Either way I don't think you are going to get a perfect set up no matter what you do. You have no limit and the league and alot of high school dumbasses who coulda got the exposure Mayo enjoyed at USC fall through the cracks into obscurity, and now you have flaws in the limit where any dumb school taking on a player whose as sadistically impatient at Mayo is screwed.

Not sure about Mayo wanting to "play right away", more like "get paid right away", which he was going to do regardless of who he had to take down as a result.

And yes, fuck USC, they are habitual offenders and must play by the rules that are in place.

USC is not innocent, they should pay the price, no doubt.

But the age limit is what created the situation in the first place.

You've lost me on that one Glenn. People knowingly flout regulations and it's the fault of a rule that a league (which in the end is basically a private corporation) issues in an attempt to improve the quality of its product? You may not like the rule but there's no way it can be accountable for people doing something they know is wrong.

You want to go to the NBA but can't because they have a rule to protect and improve their play (or product, it's the same)? Too damn bad. You want to play with the adults then welcome to the adult world. I know he'll only get a slap on the wrist which points out that there's still a problem with the rule, maybe, but it's still his fault and those who were a part of this or turned a blind eye.

Personally I think the NBA balked on this. They knew they would have to do something to improve the league but didn't have the balls to go two years like the NFL because they wanted to cash in on the big-name NCAA stars. I still think two wouldn't be so bad; either two years in college or declare for the draft but know you're stuck in the D-league until the two years are up.

Something like that. I've ranted enough.

I was just trying to say that if the rule wasn't in place, Mayo would have gone straight to the NBA and USC wouldn't be where they are today, thus the "age limit created the situation" comment.

Additionally, I wonder if holding people back from making a living, people who are perfectly ready and capable of doing so, might also contribute to these "contemptuous acts", who knows?

Sorta like asking if people between the ages of 18-20 are more likely to abuse alcohol because they feel contempt because they can't legally drink it.

I was just trying to say that if the rule wasn't in place, Mayo would have gone straight to the NBA and USC wouldn't be where they are today, thus the "age limit created the situation" comment.

Additionally, I wonder if holding people back from making a living, people who are perfectly ready and capable of doing so, might also contribute to these "contemptuous acts", who knows?

Sorta like asking if people between the ages of 18-20 are more likely to abuse alcohol because they feel contempt because they can't legally drink it.

That's a flawed arguement. If the drinking age was 18, then a bunch of 19 year olds wouldn't get MIPs.

I understand where you're going but I just think it's a moot point. The rule is in place and even the courts have decided that a league can apply age restrictions to improve the quality of its product. That's the reality of the situation and FWIW I even personally agree with it. Your thoughts on if the rule hadn't been there are not wrong (and of course he would have just gone to the NBA, I agree with you on that) but then again that type of thinking is along the lines of "if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle" (or any version of that you may know).

Okay, how about this...

5 years ago, before the age limit was put in place, this particular incident wouldn't have happened.

The enactment of this rule has created this new situation.

Just an observation.

Unfortunately I can't agree with that either. Chris Webber. UNLV.

I see those as different situations, as they had the choice to go the the NBA if they wanted to and chose instead to play college ball to try and improve their draft stock, therefore, no contempt for the rules.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well. Entirely possible.

I see what you're saying. But I don't think I can separate the two so easily. You make a good point about the others having the ability to go to the NBA anyway, but it's still breaking rules to fit the system to your wants and needs. In the case of Mayo, sure he had another rule even preventing him from going to the NBA, but it's willingly breaking the rule nonetheless.

In other words, the "new" age rule has created a new breed of "reluctant college student/athletes".

I think the contempt will go away in time, but this next class or two will be well aware that they are being forced to go through the motions and have lost a year (or maybe two if they go with a 2nd year requirement) of NBA salary.

Interesting way of putting it. I wonder though if it's actually a product the old way of doing things, the need for the NBA to promote individuals, names and star power over everything else and the message that it sent.

It's like marijuana prohibition. I am not a criminal if not for the law. But, there is a law, so I am. Remove the law, I am an otherwise law abiding citizen.

A rule so readily broken creates contempt and comprimises respect for our system of law as a whole.

Oof, can't agree with that comparison. One rule is done among a private institution, taking steps to further improve it's quality without stepping on any constitutional rights (again, as upheld by courts) and the other is state (meaning government) law. I think at some point distinction have to be drawn when making comparisons.

Sorry about that posting. My computer absolutely froze, I didn't touch it at all, and then all of a sudden I see 1098987 copies of one post. Is there any way to nix all those copies?

Edit: I know not to touch the post button after the first time (I learned that one on another site) so when it froze I literally pulled my hands away. Aside from the slight embarrassment at looking like moron I haven't stopped laughing and just sent screen shots to friends.

Still, I hope there's a way to erase those extra posts.

Oof, can't agree with that comparison. One rule is done among a private institution, taking steps to further improve it's quality without stepping on any constitutional rights (again, as upheld by courts) and the other is state (meaning government) law. I think at some point distinction have to be drawn when making comparisons.

But you clearly see the similair dynamic, yes? A basketball player IS going to get paid. You (big brother under the guise of "helping him out") pick the setting. I AM going to smoke grass. You (big brother under the guise of.....) choose under what restrictions.

All the rule does is create violators/criminals.

Sorry about that posting. My computer absolutely froze, I didn't touch it at all, and then all of a sudden I see 1098987 copies of one post. Is there any way to nix all those copies?

Edit: I know not to touch the post button after the first time (I learned that one on another site) so when it froze I literally pulled my hands away. Aside from the slight embarrassment at looking like moron I haven't stopped laughing and just sent screen shots to friends.

Still, I hope there's a way to erase those extra posts.

I only saw 2 identical posts, now fixed.

But you clearly see the similair dynamic, yes? A basketball player IS going to get paid. You (big brother under the guise of "helping him out") pick the setting. I AM going to smoke grass. You (big brother under the guise of.....) choose under what restrictions.

All the rule does is create violators/criminals.

I think it looks the same, but at it's heart just isn't the same. You are saying that the NBA is like the government because they believe that they are helping the individual here in a Big Brother way by regulating something people would do anyway (which gets into the whole government legislating morality issue which I do agree with). But my contention is that the NBA made the rule change out of pure self interest, one a private institution is legally allowed to as long as it does not step on people's rights.

I only saw 2 identical posts, now fixed.

Really?! On my screen there were at least 6 copies. Thanks for fixing it though.

I think it looks the same, but at it's heart just isn't the same. You are saying that the NBA is like the government because they believe that they are helping the individual here in a Big Brother way by regulating something people would do anyway (which gets into the whole government legislating morality issue which I do agree with). But my contention is that the NBA made the rule change out of pure self interest, one a private institution is legally allowed to as long as it does not step on people's rights.


That sir is entirely fair and I agree. Many in the NBA marketing control wing would take issue.

He looked at every avenue possible to get around going to college, from playing in Europe to even considering the fucking Harlem Globetrotters. But in the end, playing the mandatory one year of college ball gave him the most exposure to the NBA.
It wasn't even so much the NBA, but to sponsors and such. His choice of USC was more about being in a big media market for a good shoe deal.

The NCAA is just getting what they deserve. They pimp these kids for millions. I have no problem with one of them turning the tables and using up/throwing away the school for his own benefit.

^Solid.

Well, here we go.


Jennings considering playing in Europe instead of college
By Andy Katz
ESPN.com

Updated: June 20, 2008, 3:13 PM ET

Brandon Jennings, who signed a letter of intent to play at Arizona, is looking at the unprecedented option of playing overseas next season to get ready for the 2009 NBA draft if he's not eligible to play for the Wildcats next season.

Jennings told ESPN.com that he is exploring the possibility of a professional basketball career. Jennings' mother, Alice Knox, has retained an attorney, Jeffrey Valle, to help look into the possibility that Jennings could play professionally in Europe while he waits to become eligible for the 2009 NBA draft.

More: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3454157