Tricky question.


Is Flip trying to develop the bench...

A. ...so they can actually play and contribute in the playoffs

or

B. ...so they can contribute in the regular season, resting the starters, so the starters can play a ton of minutes in the playoffs

You can answer "both" if you'd like to, since the question is poorly worded.

B I hope. They're awful.

B

C

I think it's B, at least this year. Max will still get time, but I bet the minutes are cut for the other bench members.

Simple question.



Don't even try to answer "both".

Which is it?

"Are you still beating your wife?" Simple question. Yes or no.

I have to reject the question on the bench and answer that it depends. Maxiell's minutes are set in stone for the playoffs. Everyone else is up for grabs depending on how they play between now and then, who they have to match up against in a playoff series and how they play from game to game in a given series.

No matter what Flip might want in terms of using his bench in the playoffs, individual guys have still got to step up and produce on the court and the jury is still out on whether they can or will do so.

A chicken or egg question isn't a simple one by the way. ;)

It's also a "which came first" question. Glen's question is cause and effect question.

Glenn, what did they teach you at MSU?

For fuck's sake, all I was trying to do was to make you guys take a position on a topic, which is never an easy task.

Personally, I think that the playoff rotation is going tighten right up to where it was in previous years.

It's really starting to feel like the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Just like you guys nitpicking my posts, lol

Personally, I think that the playoff rotation is going tighten right up to where it was in previous years.


Yep.

For fuck's sake, all I was trying to do was to make you guys take a position on a topic, which is never an easy task.

Sorry, it just wasn't a legitimate either/or question the way you posed it.

If you're asking whether the rotation will tighten for the playoffs, probably so but not severely. We're probably still looking at 9-10 deep which isn't exactly tight. Starters, maxiell, stuckey, hayes, with a mix of hunter and one of the other bigs (amir or ratliff) depending on how a given game is going.

:mccosky:


As the Pistons' rotation turns

Chris McCosky / The Detroit News

NEW YORK -- If the playoffs began today, the Pistons would probably be considered the third-best team in the East.

Certainly, the Celtics' 90-78 win Wednesday was evidence they are playing better right now. And the way LeBron James dominates game after game, the Cavaliers seem to be playing at a higher level, as well.

But the playoffs are still 21 games away, and as Boston's Paul Pierce pointed out Wednesday, "This is a team we will probably see in the playoffs, and they will be a better team by then."

That's the goal.

Strange as it might seem for a team that is 44-17, the Pistons are undergoing minor renovations.

First, the bench rotation is under reconstruction. The Pistons have 21 games to work in three veterans -- Lindsey Hunter, Juan Dixon and Theo Ratliff. To do that, three other players have to be phased out of the rotation, at least somewhat.

Untested young players, for the most part, get exposed in the playoffs and in playoff-type games like Wednesday. That's why the Pistons have saved Hunter, and it's why president Joe Dumars went out and acquired the two veterans before the deadline.

Amir Johnson got lit up by Kevin Garnett. In the 11 minutes Johnson was on the floor, Garnett scored 17 points -- all but four were on Johnson's guard. To be fair, Garnett scored 31 points, so he scored on Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess, as well.

The difference is this: In the playoffs, when Wallace or McDyess get into foul trouble, it will be Ratliff (assuming he's healthy) playing those 11 to 15 minutes -- a stronger and more battle-tested presence.

The type of energy and effort Johnson and Jason Maxiell bring during the regular season often gets neutralized in the playoffs. The stakes are higher and everybody plays with maximum effort.

It's the same in the backcourt. Already, Dixon has taken most of Arron Afflalo's minutes. But neither he nor rookie Rodney Stuckey could keep Rajon Rondo in front of him last night.

In the playoffs, Hunter, still one of the best on-ball defenders in the league, will provide that defensive spark.

In 11 minutes, Stuckey had one basket, with no assists and a turnover. He had trouble initiating the offense or creating anything for himself. The Pistons were plus-7 when Dixon was on the court, even though he missed four of his five shots. They were a minus-6 with Stuckey.

A bigger problem has been declining production from Maxiell and Jarvis Hayes. Maxiell played 18 minutes, didn't score (he missed a dunk), didn't block a shot and only had two rebounds. Hayes was scoreless and the team was outscored by nine points in his nine minutes of work.

There's enough depth to cover for Maxiell, but it will be interesting to see what Flip Saunders does if Hayes doesn't get going. He could give Walter Herrmann some run at the backup small forward spot. He could also use Afflalo and play three guards.

It's all part of the renovation.

It's not all about the reserves, however. As Saunders said Wednesday, whether the Pistons make it back to the Finals this year will have a lot more to do with the starters than it will the reserves. And right now, the starting unit needs some work.

They repeat the same bad habits in just about every loss: passive and sluggish starts, over-reliance on jump shots early, then are too easily lured into isolation play.

"Part of our problem is when things start going south, our guys think they can do it by themselves. We don't have those types of players," Saunders said of the loss in Boston, and the loss in Utah, and the four straight playoff losses to Cleveland last year. "We're not built on having a superstar carry us down the stretch."

That's an oversimplification of the problem. Whenever the Pistons face a defense that is as aggressive and physical as they are, they seem to take it as a personal affront. Ray Allen knocks Rip Hamilton down, so Hamilton feels like he has to take it at Allen the next few possessions, and the offense stagnates.

"They took away our first option every time," Chauncey Billups said.

That's what Utah and Cleveland did, too. Detroit's answer to that has been to try to isolate somebody, who is then forced to create something under a dying shot clock. Even though the Pistons had favorable mismatches -- Rondo on Billups, Glen Davis or Leon Powe or Kendrick Perkins on Wallace -- they weren't getting enough production out of them to warrant ruining their offensive rhythm.

The only way to defuse an aggressive defense is to keep running the plays all the way through. The Pistons, by keeping the ball on one side, are making themselves easy to defend.

And to a man, the Pistons know that to be true. They know that ball movement and player movement are the keys that unlock their offense. But bad habits die hard and certain stimulants -- physical defense, prideful individual challenges -- are tough to ignore.

They have 21 games to find some mechanism to deaden those stimuli. If they don't, the rotation renovation will be for naught.

The type of energy and effort Johnson and Jason Maxiell bring during the regular season often gets neutralized in the playoffs. The stakes are higher and everybody plays with maximum effort.


This is complete BS. Hustle guys always kill us in the playoffs. There is a gear that most vets just can't match. It's like saying Ben Wallace shouldn't play in the playoffs, because everyone else's intensity will be up.

How will the opponents intensity change AJ's game changing team defense? He will be incapable of blocking shots and rebounding all of a sudden? Max's J's, Dunks, and blocks are going to disappear as well? I also think his pointing out KG lighting up AJ in 1 game as the reason to not play him when it counts is crap. It was his first time ever matching up with him, and KG has made pretty much every big man in the game look silly at least a few times. (Not that he should be on KG anyways, since he is at his best roaming).

If this team goes into the post-season with Lindsey, Dixon, Hayes, and Ratliff as the main bench-crew they'll be lucky to make it to the ECF's, and sure as hell won't get past Boston or Cleveland. Max, AJ, Stuckey, and AA are the reason there has been a rejuvenation in energy.

The energy players and young guys (Boobie, Varejao, etc) are the exact reasons this team team has been watching from home the last 2 years.

It's a lose-lose situation for Flip. If he plays his vets, we get pissed at him for not playing the young kids. If he plays his young kids, and they are ineffective (see Boston game), than ppl bitch that they weren't given a fair enough chance.

All I want is a Title this year. And if it means having to play Juan Dixon, Lindsey Hunter, and Theo Ratliff rather than Afflalo, Stuckey, and Amir Johnson, than so be it. Theres too much talent on our bench to be complaining about Flips substitution decisions.

Now I'm not the biggest Flip Saunders advocate, but I also don't believe it's his fault for the last 2 seasons playoff failures either.

This year has been his best coaching job of his career. Starters minutes are way down than they have ever been (except McDyess), and we have a half-way decent starting 5 coming off our bench.

Flip's going to play the veterans in the playoffs, and personally, I don't mind it at all. I'd feel we have a better chance to win with Dixon on the floor rather than Stuckey...no offense.

It's a lose-lose situation for Flip. If he plays his vets, we get pissed at him for not playing the young kids. If he plays his young kids, and they are ineffective (see Boston game), than ppl bitch that they weren't given a fair enough chance.

All I want is a Title this year. And if it means having to play Juan Dixon, Lindsey Hunter, and Theo Ratliff rather than Afflalo, Stuckey, and Amir Johnson, than so be it. Theres too much talent on our bench to be complaining about Flips substitution decisions.

Now I'm not the biggest Flip Saunders advocate, but I also don't believe it's his fault for the last 2 seasons playoff failures either.

This year has been his best coaching job of his career. Starters minutes are way down than they have ever been (except McDyess), and we have a half-way decent starting 5 coming off our bench.

Flip's going to play the veterans in the playoffs, and personally, I don't mind it at all. I'd feel we have a better chance to win with Dixon on the floor rather than Stuckey...no offense.

That's fine. I disagree. We know what these bench vets (Lindsey, Dixon, Ratliff, Hayes, etc) are capable of, and it's not enough. We need one of these young guys to go all "Boobie Gibson, Tayshaun Prince, etc" in the playoffs if we want to have a shot. I don't think the team is nearly good enough with just the known quantities. We need to give these young guys a chance for everything to "Click" come playoff time.

Not giving the young guys a chance in the playoffs would lead to nothing but the same thing we've seen the last 2 years. The youthful energy is the only reason this team is better than last year's which couldn't even get passed an incredibly weak Cavs team. This year, the Cavs are better, and the Celtics are MUCH better. The same re-cycled group of vets is not going to get it done.

We know what these bench vets (Lindsey, Dixon, Ratliff, Hayes, etc) are capable of, and it's not enough.

Juan Dixon is capable of scoring 35 points off the bench in the playoffs. What exactly do "we" know?

"we" certainly don't know much about Theo Ratliff, sicne he's healthy for the first time in 5 years.

And exactly what young bench guy showed up when we won the championship in 2004?

Our best 3 bench guys in the playoffs were Lindsey, Corliss and Campbell, in that order. All 3 guys had at least 10 years of NBA experience.

Our "boobie gibson" off the bench that year was Mehmet Okur, and he didn't do shit in the playoffs.

Juan Dixon is capable of scoring 35 points off the bench in the playoffs. What exactly do "we" know?

I know that he's incredibly undersized, and boils down to about Tony Delk. 1 great game scattered in between 10 shitty ones is status quo for Juan, just like Jarvis. Just like Lindsey. 1 game is not going to get it done.


"we" certainly don't know much about Theo Ratliff, sicne he's healthy for the first time in 5 years.

He is this year's defensive version of Chris Webber. And I would hardly call him healthy after 1 game. His problem is not that he had 1 bad injury and now he's back. It's that he cannot play more than a week without coming up lame with some random twist/pull/bruise/etc, and missing a month. He will be a good insurance policy for Dice/AJ/Max, but I would not count on him to be a big impact player on a nightly basis. He has been in the league long enough to know what he is capable of.


And exactly what young bench guy showed up when we won the championship in 2004?
First of all, can we stop comparing this team to the team that won in 2004? For fuck sake. It was a completely different group. Ben Wallace in his prime. A legitimate coach that knew how to get everything out of a team in the playoffs. A starting unit that wasn't "above" hustling. A team that out-worked it's opponent every single night they stepped on the floor. The pre touch-foul rules. Probably the best defense in NBA history.

I never said EVERY team needs one. I said THIS team needs one.

And by the way, 2004 was Tayshaun's first year in the rotation. It was the playoffs in 2003 where he "Blossomed" into an impact player. I think we can all agree that if not for Tayshaun stepping his game up in the post-season those 2 years as a young player, we'd still have 2 banners up in the rafters right now.

I know that he's incredibly undersized, and boils down to about Flip Murray minus the slashing ability. 1 great game scattered in between 10 shitty ones is status quo for Juan

He tore ben gordon a new asshole in the playoff 3 years ago, when ben gordon was the 6th man of the year, and he actually played BETTER against Miami in round 2.

If you think Dixon is the same as flip murray, I question exactly how much you know about the game of basketball. Dixon is a playoff performer.

Juan is a fine scorer, passer, ballhandler and defender. All flip did was hog the fucking ball for 20 seconds.

It took Dixon 1 week to take Afflalo's job from him. Flip was on the inactive list for 4 months.

If Dixon is that amazing, why is he the competing for 4th guard on the Pistons? If he's the player you just described, he'd be starting somewhere. And lighting up Ben Gordon isn't a huge thing. He ws 6th man of the year for his offense, not his defense. I'm not saying Dixon is bad, just that he's not all that amazing.

He tore ben gordon a new asshole in the playoff 3 years ago, when ben gordon was the 6th man of the year, and he actually played BETTER against Miami in round 2.

If you think Dixon is the same as flip murray, I question exactly how much you know about the game of basketball. Dixon is a playoff performer.

He is just another shoot-first combo guard without the size to guard legit shooting guards, who likes to chuck up low percentage jumpshots ala Tony Delk, Flip Murray, Mike James, etc. They are very comparable.

As for him "lighting up Ben Gordon" (this is like mentioning Flip Murray lighting up Steve Nash...). He had 35 points in one game, and shot 13 of 49 in the other 5 games of the series (that's 26% for those keeping score). He is what he is. A very streaky shooter who can't run an offense, and can't guard 2-guards. He'll win you 1 game, and shoot you out of 5 others.


Juan is a fine scorer, passer, ballhandler and defender. All flip did was hog the fucking ball for 20 seconds.

It took Dixon 1 week to take Afflalo's job from him. Flip was on the inactive list for 4 months.

Because Flip Saunders has a boner for every new chucker with a streaky jumpshot just like you. He doesn't give a damn about a guy that plays unselfishly and defends (Afflalo). Me? I've seen this story before with Delk/Flip, and I'm not buying it.

And the whole "stealing the job from Afflalo" thing, OH MY GOD HOW AMAZING, HE'S STEALING MINUTES FROM A ROOKIE TAKEN IN THE MID 20'S!!!!!!

Because Flip Saunders has a boner for every new chucker with a streaky jumpshot just like you.

Which must be why flip murray spent the last 3 months on IR. Great point.


And the whole "stealing the job from Afflalo" thing, OH MY GOD HOW AMAZING, HE'S STEALING MINUTES FROM A ROOKIE TAKEN IN THE MID 20'S!!!!!!

it proves he's the best backup SG option we have, which is all he needs to.


He is what he is. A very streaky shooter who can't run an offense

He can't block shots either. Who the fuck cares? he's a shooting guard.


He doesn't give a damn about a guy that plays unselfishly and defends (Afflalo).

"plays unselfishly"=couldn't score in an empty gym.

Good to know that a 2-guard not being able to do shit offensively qualifies as a good thing in your book.

Dixon's defense is a thousand times better than Afflalo's offense. If you think he can't defend, you're blind. He's played very good defense at the SG position with his quickness.

Even when Dixon hasn't been scoring, he's kept the offensive flow going, which is more than any other of Rip's backups have done this season.

I'd rather have Stuckey playing than him at SG. And not just because he needs the experience, but because I think he'd be better for the team. And I'd probably go with Afflalo over Dixon in all honesty.

I'd rather have Stuckey playing than him at SG. And not just because he needs the experience, but because I think he'd be better for the team. And I'd probably go with Afflalo over Dixon in all honesty.

Yeah, we tried the afflalo thing. Didn't work. He can't score and everyone knows it. The offense dies a horrible death because he (A) can't shoot, (B) can't pass, and (C) thinks he can do both, more often than not resulting in terrible plays.

Not only was it hurting the team, but it clogged the lane for stuckey, and his production was dropping before Dixon started playing.

Stuckey looks 50 times as comfortable out there with dixon than he does with afflalo, but I guess some people would rather lose games with 2 rookies than win games with 1.

I'd rather have Stuckey playing than him at SG. And not just because he needs the experience, but because I think he'd be better for the team. And I'd probably go with Afflalo over Dixon in all honesty.

Yep, if AA isn't going to play in the rotation, Flip should be going to a 3-guard rotation with Rodney taking the backup SG minutes as well. We already have a streaky chucker in the 2nd unit (Jarvis), we don't need 2. I would much rather have Stuckey's slashing or Afflalo perimeter D on the floor.

I'd rather have stuckey not need to go 1 on 3 because his teammates can't shoot, but then again I'm practical.

I'm sure Stuckey can handle the load of being the only perimeter scorer/ballhandler on the floor...

I'd rather have stuckey not need to go 1 on 3 because his teammates can't shoot
That I agree with. What he really needs is an inside presence to go with him. Someone with a nice midrange shot. Someone like............McDyess?

Yeah, we tried the afflalo thing. Didn't work. He can't score and everyone knows it. The offense dies a horrible death because he (A) can't shoot, (B) can't pass, and (C) thinks he can do both, more often than not resulting in terrible plays.

Not only was it hurting the team, but it clogged the lane for stuckey, and his production was dropping before Dixon started playing.

Stuckey looks 50 times as comfortable out there with dixon than he does with afflalo, but I guess some people would rather lose games with 2 rookies than win games with 1.

Stuckey's best stretch of games was when AA was playing big minutes.

From January 29th to February 19th (9 games), Rodney Averaged 10.7ppg on 52% shooting. During that stretch, Afflalo played 16.8mpg in EVERY single game, and never played under 10 minutes. The Pistons were 8-1 in that stretch.

Coincidentally (or not), Afflalo played only 4 minutes in the next game (Against milwaukee), and that was the start of Rodney's bad stretch of games. The Pistons lost that game by the way.

Your theory doesn't hold up. The Afflalo/Stuckey unit was great once Flip incorporated Amir and Sheed into that group. If anything, Afflalo took quite a bit of defensive pressure off of Rodney.

Notice what you put right at the end of that? That Sheed was with them. That's perfect. Afflalo is the defensive stopper that can knock down an open J (which will only improve with more shots, he was a good shooter in college), Stuckey can drive and dish to sheed for the 3 or the midrange J, Amir can clean up the offensive glass.

If you have to rely on your unproven youth to win a championship, than we should just expect to lose in ECF again.

Cleveland was a rare exception last year b/c with so much attention being paid to LBJ, somebody was going to get tons of open looks. Not to mention, prior to that series, Boobie Gibson didn't even deserve to be paid attention too from an offensive standpoint.

In '04 none of your young guys played, and we we're fine. The Spurs NEVER play rookies and they've been fine. I'm not saying not to play Stuckey & Amir, but rather that if we were to lose a series in whichever round, it won't have anything to do with the amount of minutes those guys play.

So to blame Flip for not playing Stuck & Amir in a playoff series we end up losing is laughable.

If we want to get to the finals, it will be mainly on the backs of those who took us their previously...

prior to that series, Boobie Gibson didn't even deserve to be paid attention too from an offensive standpoint.
This is kind of the point. The element of surprise. Everyone knows what to expect from the regulars. Good teams know what they have to do to beat them in a 7 game series (put a bigger guard on Chauncey, trap the P&R, let them hoist from outside, and attack the rim off P&Rs). With guys like Stuckey and AJ, the scouting report is short.


In '04 none of your young guys played, and we we're fine.
First, you obviously didn't read my post responding to kstat saying the same thing. See it for my response. Second, Tayshaun Prince was 23, and in his 1st year of rotation minutes.


The Spurs NEVER play rookies and they've been fine.
uhhh, does Finals MVP Tony Parker ring a bell? Played 30mpg at the age of 19. Yes, that's like Amir playing 30mpg LAST YEAR. At Amir's age (20), Parker was playing 34mpg en route to his 1st NBA title. Coincidentally, Manu Ginobili picked up his 1st title in his rookie year (that same year), playing 28mpg in the playoffs. So that couldn't be any further from the truth.

And as I said before... I never once said that every championship team needs one of their younger guys to "blossom at the right time", but based on the last 2 years, this team does.



If we want to get to the finals, it will be mainly on the backs of those who took us their previously...

Obviously. But in a 7 game series against a team like the Celtics, we will need more than just the regulars doing their thing to win.