My source told me NJ are about to reach a deal with Dallas that would send Kidd to the Mavs for Devin Harris, Jerry Stackhouse, Devean George, Diop, and Maurice Ager.


Told ya! bitch

How about that Western Conference?

It happened?

If you are being serious, which I can never tell, it seems like Dallas might be giving up a lot if they are hoping for a championship. Harris, for one, plays a bit like Kidd, though he's obviously not as good. On the flip side, Kidd's size and rebounding add a lot. They are giving up a pretty big defensive presense in Diop and a good bench scorer in Stack. Unless Dallas has more reserves I don't see, I'm not really sure I like the deal for them, although it would appear to be good for both sides. For NJ, if this is as good as they can do, then it's a good deal because Kidd wanted out anyhow... Dallas would run with a 3 guard set of Kidd, Terry, and Jones with some Barea here and there. Who knows, Kidd could be the sort of spark Dallas needs.

Hasn't happened YET. Close to completion though.

Jason Kidd has quietly -- and not so quietly -- hoped for a trade to the Dallas Mavericks all season.

It appears those hopes are about to realized, according to NBA front-office sources.

Sources told ESPN.com that the Mavericks and Nets on Wednesday reached an agreement in principle on a Kidd deal after talks had seemingly stalled last week, moving the teams to brink of completing the NBA's third blockbuster deal of the month.

Although sources say that the teams are still sorting out final details, this deal was described as "imminent" by multiple sources close to the process after negotiations moved to an advanced stage Tuesday night. The proposed swap -- salvaged from talks on a three-way trade with Portland that developed and fizzled quickly two weeks ago -- would require Dallas to send 24-year-old point guard Devin Harris, veteran swingman Jerry Stackhouse, the expiring contracts of center DeSagana Diop and swingman Devean George and guard Maurice Ager to New Jersey for Kidd and forward Malik Allen.

Sources say Dallas will also give New Jersey cash ($3 million is the league maximum) and its first-round draft pick this June and as well as a first-rounder in 2010.

The Nets are expected to buy out Stackhouse's contract, which could enable him to re-sign with Dallas if he waits 30 days, and ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard reports that the Nets and the Mavs are likewise poised to complete a separate trade that will send swingman Antoine Wright to Dallas for a future second-round pick.

Dallas has been widely considered the most likely winner of the Kidd trade sweepstakes, despite the repeated attempts of Mavericks owner Mark Cuban to publicly dismiss the idea of parting with multiple regulars for Kidd. Cuban told several New York-based reporters Sunday before New Jersey beat Dallas that a deal for All-Star floor leader would severely weaken his roster.

"For us to make the numbers work in a deal like that, we'd have to trade away half the team," Cuban said. "We're not doing that, so it just doesn't work. And we like our team. We've got a lot of room for improvement and we hope to get better. But right now, I just don't see anything happening.

Yet sources close to the process insist that the talks have heated up in the past 24 hours, with the Mavs still tantalized by the prospect of bringing Kidd back more than a decade after the pre-Cuban regime drafted him out of Cal, watched him share rookie of the year honors with Grant Hill in 1994-95 and then traded him to Phoenix on the day after Christmas in 1996.

The Mavs' biggest reservation, though, isn't sacrificing Harris. Sources maintain that Dallas, while reluctant to part with one of Cuban's favorite players and its point guard of the future after signing Harris to a contract extension over the summer, has been resigned for some time to losing Harris if it meant getting Kidd back.

The greater hesitation, sources said, is that they would also have to part with Stackhouse and Diop, weakening Dallas' depth. Although it's believed that Stackhouse is likely to be bought out and released by the Nets, which would enable Dallas to re-sign him if he sits out for 30 days, there's no guarantee they can convince Stackhouse to resist the interest of other teams to return once he becomes a free agent. Losing Diop, meanwhile, is an even bigger blow, as that would leave the undependable Erick Dampier as the Mavericks' only veteran center at a time when potential playoff foes like the Los Angeles Lakers (Pau Gasol) and Phoenix Suns (Shaquille O'Neal) are getting bigger.

But Dallas appears more motivated than ever in spite of those concerns and the current lack of a third team to join in and broaden the trade, believing that Kidd -- although he turns 35 in March and is threatening to establish a new career low with his 36.7 percent shooting from the field -- is still a prime source of leadership and mental toughness.

Kidd displayed those qualities in abundance during a strong summer with Team USA and those areas are well-chronicled weak spots for the Mavs, who followed up a historic collapse to Miami in the 2006 NBA Finals with a first-round flameout against Golden State after winning 67 games last season. A point guard of Kidd's caliber, influence and experience would undoubtedly please the demanding Avery Johnson, reinvigorate a team that has been lacking energy and confidence and supply Dallas' coach with a dangerous four-man core of Kidd, Josh Howard, Jason Terry and reigning MVP Dirk Nowitzki.

Nowitzki is the player Kidd has had in mind when privately telling associates in recent months that he hoped to go back to Dallas. Although his desire to leave New Jersey had been suspected all season, Kidd didn't go public with that wish until late January, when he told ESPN The Magazine's Ric Bucher that it's time for him and New Jersey "all to move on" in separate directions.

Kidd was acquired by the Nets in the 2001 offseason in a trade with Phoenix featuring Stephon Marbury and sparked New Jersey to the most successful period in the team's NBA history, starting with back-to-back trips to the NBA Finals in 2002 and 2003. After giving strong consideration to signing with San Antonio in the summer of 2003, Kidd elected to stay with the Nets. During the past four-plus seasons, however, New Jersey has not advanced past the second round of the playoffs, despite the 2004 arrival of Vince Carter and Kidd's successful recovery from microfracture knee surgery.

The Nets were prepared to deal Kidd to the Lakers at the trade deadline last season but pulled out of the deal when the Lakers refused to part with center Andrew Bynum, who has since blossomed. This deal would give them a highly rated point guard who's 10 years younger than Kidd and three cap-friendly contracts if the Mavericks indeed include Ager.

The Nets could come away with even more salary-cap relief if the Mavericks built their trade package around Harris and a signed-and-traded Keith Van Horn. Although he has been out of the game since the end of the 2005-06 season, Van Horn hasn't filed official retirement papers with the league, allowing Dallas to retain his rights. And because Van Horn's final NBA salary was nearly $16 million, Dallas can re-sign him for a substantial amount and thus create a lucrative expiring contract for the Nets, because only the first year of a contract must be guaranteed in a sign-and-trade arrangement.

Cuban, though, told ESPN.com last week that "we won't use [Van Horn] in any deal for anyone." That's because Kidd would cost the Mavericks nearly $40 million next season, thanks to the luxury tax, if they sent only Harris, Van Horn and salary-cap filler to the Nets.


ESPN have been tapping my phones, so that's how they got the info. In fact, that's how they ALWAYS get their info.

So who's playing PG for NJ now? Stack?

NJ got a lot in the trade, but I'm not sure everything fits.

Nevermind. I missed Harris being in the deal.

This greatly improves NJ, in my opinion. I think Dallas got a little bit better, but not a whole lot. That's a lot of key players for them.

MoTown, I bolded another part of the article.

Their bench will obviously not be very strong, but if they'd be able to get Stackhouse back then obviously that would help.

Can someone please at least change the thread name to "Kidd to Dallas imminent" so I don't end up looking like a fool if this doesn't happen? lol...it's pretty much confirmed at this point though.

If I'm NJ, I make that deal in a heartbeat. Kidd doesn't want to be there and you're getting a solid young PG, a positive bench presence at the swing position in Stack, a great defensive center in Diop, a young guard with some potential in Ager, and George who's a proven commodity in the NBA.

Zek, read the other bolded part. NJ would be expected to buy out Stackhouse's contract.

Wow, I missed that. I was reading it in class, which just ended. Ok, so the deal doesn't look QUITE as good for NJ, but its still a pretty solid deal for them. If I were them I'd try to get an extra draft pick out of it as well.

imo, this is basically kidd for harris + crap. if NJ isnt atleast saving alot of money on this deal, i dont think thats a whole lot back for kidd (and i am a harris fan).

ill be very interested to see kidd play with dallas, they are going to be a fun team to watch again.

Why would they buy out his contract? Wait until after the season to do that. I think they're a much better team without buying him out.

And why does he have to wait 30 days? Didn't we resign Hunter the day we traded him for Sheed?

If they can turn Carter into some young pieces, then this isn't too bad. What's up with Krstic again?

imo, this is basically kidd for harris + crap.

You mean to tell me you don't think Maurice Ager can be a superstar in this league?

If they can turn Carter into some young pieces, then this isn't too bad. What's up with Krstic again?

There were rumors about NJ possibly trading VC to Indy for Jermaine O'Neal.

Also, good question.

Why would they buy out his contract? Wait until after the season to do that. I think they're a much better team without buying him out.

And why does he have to wait 30 days? Didn't we resign Hunter the day we traded him for Sheed?
Agreed on them not buying him out, but it might be a stipulation in the deal that they agreed on buying him out, even though I'm pretty sure that's against league rules if they actually write it in.

And they changed the rule after we did that. It was going on way too often so the league made a waiting period before you could rejoin your old team.

If they trade fer JO, then this is a stupid deal. I'd rather have him with Kidd and Jefferson than with Harris and Jefferson. And if they made a deal like that, Kidd would be more likely to be happy.

JO wouldn't be playing enough to keep Kidd happy. Too injury prone.

NJ agree in principle.

If Stack is not bought out then Dallas will need a swingman off the bench. They'll also be thin at center with Dampier and nothing else. What could we get from them for Brezec and Herrman?

I don't think there's anything Dallas has that we need/could help us.

Dirk?

Already got him. Sorta.

I don't think there's anything Dallas has that we need/could help us.

Would you take Fazekus and a first? We could stash him with Samb in the NBDL and hope he can replace Sheed some day. He has a similar skill set, just less skill. Maybe he could mentor him (besides the additude).

And a first? Sure.

Don't know much about Fezekus, but if you're right about him having a similar skill set to Rasheed, then sure. I'm open to anything.

trade doesn't matter, new jersey will still suck balls, and dallas will still be eliminated by round 2 in the west...

jason kidd has no rings for a reason

...at least chauncey will start in the all star game

jason kidd has no rings for a reason



Yeah, because he was on NJ teams that went to the Finals and lost to vastly superior teams.

That deal for Fazekus would never work. The contracts don't match up. If we didn't have to match contracts, I'd trade Brezec for him straight up (not that Dallas would EVER do that deal).

Yeah, because he was on NJ teams that went to the Finals and lost to vastly superior teams.



thats the 'Ray Allen' excuse, if he's the super star we've been made out to believe, with a supporting cast of kenyon martin, kerry kittles. richard jefferson, and alonzo mourning, he should've been able to come out of that 4 year window with at least 1 championship...

thats the 'Ray Allen' excuse, if he's the super star we've been made out to believe, with a supporting cast of kenyon martin, richard jefferson, and alonzo mourning, he should've been able to come out of that 4 year window with at least 1 championship...

Beat the Lakers? Uh, hell no.

Beat the Spurs? Nah.

Alonzo didn't even play for the Nets in those two Finals years...

Zo with kidney problems. Got to remember that. And it was during the west's supreme reign.

dallas also got antoine wright for a second rounder. seperate deal.

stack is 100% certain to be a mav in 30 days, too.

dallas took NJ to the proverbial woodshed today.

i thought, going into this year, that we had entered into a reloading phaze ala indiana after they lost the davi and smitts retired. not really criticizing joe here, but we are not as interested in winning a championship as some this year.

They should have at least gotten Dallas's first rounder in that deal.

diddy, they took the Nets behind the woodshed, knocked them across the head with a chair, laid them across a table, climbed the woodshed, and nailed a flying leg drop through the table.

You think that was part of the other trade, but he didn't fit in salary-wise so they made a side deal? That's my guess.

That deal for Fazekus would never work. The contracts don't match up. If we didn't have to match contracts, I'd trade Brezec for him straight up (not that Dallas would EVER do that deal).

Dallas has plenty of expirings to make things work financially. It's a matter of how they value having some depth going into the playoffs. Nick can't help them battle Shaq, TD, Yao, Camby, Bynum, etc this year. He was an early 2nd round pick. Their first is the equivelent of a 2nd round pick almost. So basically you're trading Brezec and Hermman for two early 2nd rounders. The Jazz threw a first rounder in their deal for Korver (with Giricek).

They should have at least gotten Dallas's first rounder in that deal.


Sources say Dallas will also send the Nets the league-maximum $3 million, the Mavs' first-round draft pick this June and a first-rounder in 2010.

(From ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3244102).com)

Much better.

Am I missing something here? I think the exact opposite of this trade. I think New Jersey raped Dallas in this trade.

Kidd is shooting 37% for 11ppg this year and Devin Harris i shooting at 48% at 14 ppg. Harris has 5.3 assists/ game compared to Kidd at 10.4 assists/game.

I honestly think the trade value for Kidd was way way overvalued. The guy is 36 and cannot shoot worth crap. Have you actually watched him this year? When teams force him to shoot and take away his passing he looks horrible and not to mention he averages almost 4 turnovers/game compared to 2 for Harris.

Nets get Diop, Ager, and Devean George, who all have expiring contracts. They get 2 first rounders and Devin Harris. So now they have VC, RJ, Harris, Sean Williams and Boone starting. Krstic, George, Diop and Marcus Williams off the bench.

How did Dallas take NJ to the woodshed again??


It's pretty obvious, Mavs are banking on winning a title this yr or next. Too bad they had no defense now. Devean George, Harris and Diop were all pretty good defenders. Who is going to guard Shaq on Dallas now? Dampier, lol?


Mark my words, in 2 yrs this trade is going down as NJ raping Dallas.

How does this trade help Dallas beat San Antonio or the Lakers?

Everyone knew Kidd was a shitty/streak shooter...

I agree with you. I think this sucks for Dallas. So they get a washed up Kidd for a couple years and lose all their young talent and depth. After next year they'll have Dirk, Howard and a ton of scrubs. Dirk and Howard can already get their own shots (unlike RJ, Gaymart and the other nets that he made so much better). Terry can create his own shots too. Kidd isn't going to make many players that much better IMO. They'll get some more fast break baskets, but you can double off him onto Dirk as well. I see this move taking them back to the Mavs of a few years ago (style wise).

Right now I like the deal. But only in that "it's my opinion and I really don't have anything to support it" way.

I think the Suns are jumping for joy. They got Shaq and all they have to do is post feed him a half dozen times and foul Dampier out. Then they'll have Shaq and Amare abusing Bass and Juwan Howard. Not to mention Kidd can't stay in front of Nash anymore.

On top of that you have Gasol in LA against that same lack of big man depth.

Dallas isn't going to get past LA, Phoenix, SA or Utah. Take that to the bank.

Chris, I hope you're wrong.

I HATE Phoenix.

I'm not saying they'll be in the finals (could be Utah or LAL for all I know), but I don't think Dallas matches up with them well. It all depends on the matchups really.

Chris, it's not that. I don't want the Suns in the playoffs period, lol.

NOTHING IS FUCKING FAIR!!

fuck the suns, except amare. I wish we could somehow get Amare.

As for the trade, the MAvs or all or nothing this year. Harris was their version of Rodney Stuckey. They devloped him into a good pg, and traded him for a future hall of fame, old but sitll got the skills pg. Atleast Jason Terry will be getting more shots(he's on my fantasy team.)

and the nets gotta trade vince for like david lee, malik rose, and like quentin.

Am I missing something here? I think the exact opposite of this trade. I think New Jersey raped Dallas in this trade.

Kidd is shooting 37% for 11ppg this year and Devin Harris i shooting at 48% at 14 ppg. Harris has 5.3 assists/ game compared to Kidd at 10.4 assists/game.

I honestly think the trade value for Kidd was way way overvalued. The guy is 36 and cannot shoot worth crap. Have you actually watched him this year? When teams force him to shoot and take away his passing he looks horrible and not to mention he averages almost 4 turnovers/game compared to 2 for Harris.

Nets get Diop, Ager, and Devean George, who all have expiring contracts. They get 2 first rounders and Devin Harris. So now they have VC, RJ, Harris, Sean Williams and Boone starting. Krstic, George, Diop and Marcus Williams off the bench.

How did Dallas take NJ to the woodshed again??


It's pretty obvious, Mavs are banking on winning a title this yr or next. Too bad they had no defense now. Devean George, Harris and Diop were all pretty good defenders. Who is going to guard Shaq on Dallas now? Dampier, lol?


Mark my words, in 2 yrs this trade is going down as NJ raping Dallas.

How does this trade help Dallas beat San Antonio or the Lakers?


it might. it might not.

your undervalueing kidd, though. hes a big, powerful, complete pg who is also a good leader. also very clutch.

2 years ago dallas pulled the worst choke job ever in nba finals history (as far as im concerned). last year, dallas got booted in the first round. believe me, that wasnt a fluke. i watched several of the gsw / dallas games. gsw was just overpowering dallas's guards.

that wont happen anymore. dallas got what it needed most, a leader. they had the talent to win it this year, they just didnt have the mental edge. now they do.

the old adage in nba trades is the team that gets the best player wins the trade. no doubt about it with this one.

i dont know if i would call kidd washed up, he is leading the nba in tripple doubles...

2 years ago dallas pulled the worst choke job ever in nba finals history (as far as im concerned).

no one can disagree there

If they swung Vince to NY, they could probably score some of the young talent if they were willing to take on Marubry. They could even accept him in the deal and just buy him out. It'd be worth it to get rid of Vince and pick up the young talent and probably some draft picks.

and then jayzs gotta watch his team rebuild

thats what they need though. Build around harris, Jefferson, and a young talent from New York.Don't forget Marcus Williams, Sean Williams, Josh Boone and Ager.

vince for steph and david lee and renaldo balkman.

i dont think zeke is dumb enough to do it, but that would be one of those 'franchise saving' trades for the nets.

I like this for the Mavs, Devin Harris wasn't the answer at PG, and if they get 2-3 years out of Kidd they can maximize Dirk's prime years.

Kidd will provide them with nearly everything that they lack.

When they get Stack back, they be right there with the West's elite.

Now that I know about the first round picks, this deal is excellent for Jersey, only below average or mediocre for Dallas.

The trade has been cockblocked by Devean. Don't know the full story, but George has something in his contract to reject a trade. Again, too lazy to check, but it looks like J-Kidd is in lingo.

i think it was actually harris. i guess in the cba, guys with byc's have no trade clauses.

this is huge. look for cuban to strong arm him.

The trade has been cockblocked by Devean. Don't know the full story, but George has something in his contract to reject a trade. Again, too lazy to check, but it looks like J-Kidd is in lingo.
Wow a former laker flinging a monkey wrench into the deal?. There will be conspiracy theories i'm sure. George is pretty foul for that one. .

it might. it might not.

your undervalueing kidd, though. hes a big, powerful, complete pg who is also a good leader. also very clutch.

2 years ago dallas pulled the worst choke job ever in nba finals history (as far as im concerned). last year, dallas got booted in the first round. believe me, that wasnt a fluke. i watched several of the gsw / dallas games. gsw was just overpowering dallas's guards.

that wont happen anymore. dallas got what it needed most, a leader. they had the talent to win it this year, they just didnt have the mental edge. now they do.

the old adage in nba trades is the team that gets the best player wins the trade. no doubt about it with this one.

I think Kidd is still a great pg, no doubt about it. All I'm saying is that he is not worth trading an up and coming pg who's 24 and is lightening quick, plus a good defender in devean george, a serviceable backup C in Diop, and 2 first round picks. Maybe if it was Kidd when he was 30 I would do this deal.

i think it was actually harris. i guess in the cba, guys with byc's have no trade clauses.

this is huge. look for cuban to strong arm him.

Nope, it was George.

Can they do a contract extension for him, and would NJ accept if they could?

fuck the suns, except amare. I wish we could somehow get Amare.

I like Barbosa and Hill too. Otherwise they are pretty much annoying players.

Anyone else find it as funny as I do that the worst player in the entire trade is the one blocking it?

I have enjoyed watching the Suns for years and admired the "different" approach they they tried to take to find success.

I hate them som'bitches now.

I'll even put The Spurs ahead of them.

Anyone else find it as funny as I do that the worst player in the entire trade is the one blocking it?

Reminds me of when Gieger hosed the AI/Stack deal.

Ric Bucher says Dallas could sign Keith Van Horn then trade him to NJ in place of George. Dallas have not renounced the rights to him, so they can use his contract in a sign and trade deal.

I was always wondering where Van Horn was.

He just kind of disappeared. I was wondering about that too. Might as well, he's probably just as valuable as George. He's tall and he can shoot.

I think he might be done playing, so if they sign and trade him to NJ he'd probably just retire.

Ric Bucher says Dallas could sign Keith Van Horn then trade him to NJ in place of George. Dallas have not renounced the rights to him, so they can use his contract in a sign and trade deal.

I was always wondering where Van Horn was.

Cuban said he doesn't want to do it becuase it would cost him another 4 mil in luxery taxes. Supposedly they could do it with Juwan Howard and Eddie Jones in there instead.

I hope they do, that makes them one big man shorter. Send them Brezec.

Brezec for what?

Well fuck you then, Ric Bucher.

Phil Jackson will just use his Sith Lord mind tricks to convince KVH to cockblock this deal, like he did with George.

Then his plans for the Empire's rebirth will be complete.

DUNDUNDUNNNNN

http://www.apollowebworks.com/atheism/images/emperor.jpg

Brezec for what?

Cash. Hell, anything.

I proposed one that somebody shot down. Brezec, Herrman and our 2nd rounder for Fazekas and their first rounder. You can put in Shawn Bradley's contract or a signed KVH to make the salaries balance.

lol @ Shawn Bradley.

Shawn Bradley wasn't THAT bad. You can't put a guy that huge in fast break systems.

Shawn Bradley was terrible, lol.

He got blocked by friggin' Earl Watson.

He was terrible. All he had was hieght. He couldn't jump, he couldn't block shots and he couldn't move. He made Big Country Reeves look athletic.

If you think Zo got dunked on a lot, you need to check out some videos of Bradley.

Shawn Bradley was terrible, lol.

He got blocked by friggin' Earl Watson.

Earl is a beast

Agreed. I'm an Earl fan.

Maybe I was too hard on Shawn...

Shawn Bradley had some pretty good seasons where he put up 13/8 with 4 blocks, then he started to break down with injuries. He definitely wasn't worthy of a 2nd pick, but I wouldn't say he was terrible.

And every good help guy(Zo, Big Ben, Yao, Ewing, Mutombo) gets dunked on. That means at least he tried to block the shot and didn't shy away

pdPstztPkLA

How the hell does a 7'6 guy not shoot 50% from the field though?

Btw that song in that video is pretty damn good.

I like Shaq blowing by him (only proving my point).

Shawn Bradley > Darko


OH! I WON!

Damn.

I was thinking about the George stuff some more...what does he have to gain by denying the trade? His agent claims it is because he doesn't want to give up his bird rights by getting traded. but those bird rights only apply to Dallas. So he is afraid that Dallas won't be able to resign him next year, that is what is holding this up? Like they are going to want to resign you after you screw up their blockbuster trade? And why would they resign you when Eddie Jones has a player option, and they could resign Stack and or Finley anyway?

I think this whole bird right stuff is a smoke screen for the real reason...he wants a shot at riding the bench to another ring. If he was playing on a non-contender right now this wouldn't be an issue IMO.

playing in the finals gives you huge leverage in FA.

Bradley got blocked by Earl, but Yao got blocked by Nate.

well stackhouse might actually be the one to kill the deal now:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-stackhousesnag021508&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

as for george: he is arguing that he loses the ability to make more money via a sign and trade with dallas and another team. if dallas has his bird rights, they can obviously re-sign him to a higher amount and then trade him to another team.

my thing is, who the hell is going to want to sign and trade for george? he and his agent have grossly overestimated his value.

well stackhouse might actually be the one to kill the deal now:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-stackhousesnag021508&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

as for george: he is arguing that he loses the ability to make more money via a sign and trade with dallas and another team. if dallas has his bird rights, they can obviously re-sign him to a higher amount and then trade him to another team.

my thing is, who the hell is going to want to sign and trade for george? he and his agent have grossly overestimated his value.

Who's going to give George more than the MLE anyway?

And they can put Bradley and Howard in there instead of Stack. They can use KVH instead of George, and not send the 3 mil to NJ so they can cover the salary and taxes on keeping George.

jerry stackhouse's loose lips sink ships.

Jerry Stackhouse is an idiot and a cancer. Dallas will now have to hope his sorry 36% lifetime fg% in the playoffs (as supposed to his lifetime 41% in the regular season) is enough to win the championship. Dallas cursed themselves when they picked up this piece of garbage.

The day stackhouse was traded from the pistons is still one of my favorite days on the planet. It's one of those "I'll always remember where I was when I heard the news" type of days.

They need to develop basketball training videos featuring jerry stackhouse and title them "how not to play basketball" (with a special guest appearance by Flip Murray, someone that's actually WORSE than jerry stackhouse).

I really don't like Jerry Stackhouse. He needs to go away.

Jerrrrrrrrrry Brrrrrrrrrrrrickhouse.

Who's going to give George more than the MLE anyway?

And they can put Bradley and Howard in there instead of Stack. They can use KVH instead of George, and not send the 3 mil to NJ so they can cover the salary and taxes on keeping George.



it's not that anyone would give him more than the MLE; it's that they could potentially trade for him and pay him more than the vet's exception WITHOUT using their MLE. so they could pay him somewhere between the vet's min and the MLE.

and actually if you look into the intricacies of the CBA, they would pay a lot more taxes if they did the deal with KVH instead of george. i don't know how to explain it but in 2 articles i read, on at ESPN, it explained this.

that's why the deal really only has a decent shot if george consents. unless cuban changes his mind again and bites the bullet.

but IMO the deal is done with what stackhouse has done. what an idiot. i'd love to see him and cuban's first conversation after this. LOL

the kvh thing isnt complicated. right now they would simply trade george's K which is on the books already. if they trade KVH instead, they'd have to add his K to the books, and the lux tax $ on top.

the main thing of it is: if they sign and trade KVH and harris for kidd, instead of all the other players they were including in the original deal, they will end up paying a LOT more in luxury tax.

trading the other players allowed them to dump future salary, mainly in stackhouse. but if he were replaced with KVH they would give up less players but pay more luxury tax next year.

make sense?

New obstacles put Kidd trade in jeopardy
By Marc Stein
ESPN.com

Updated: February 16, 2008, 5:40 AM ET

The NBA does permit its teams to consummate trades during All-Star Weekend, but it's increasingly likely that the allowance won't even matter this weekend in New Orleans.

All those recent concerns about which team Jason Kidd would play for Sunday -- East or West -- have been forgotten amid the rising possibility that Kidd's expected trade from New Jersey to Dallas won't happen before the league's trade deadline at 3 p.m. ET Thursday.

"I'd have to say it's going away," offered one source close to the negotiations.

Although NBA front-office sources told ESPN.com that the New Jersey Nets and Dallas Mavericks continued to exchange trade ideas Friday, quiet optimism from both sides that a done deal was inevitable after the teams reached an agreement in principal Wednesday has given way to growing pessimism, with obstacles stacking up against the completion of the original seven-player swap.

The latest obstacle, sources say, is Dallas' insistence that the Nets take back Trenton Hassell instead of swingman Jerry Stackhouse, whose controversial comments earlier in the week have complicated his inclusion in the trade. Sources say New Jersey, however, has no interest in Hassell, presumably because Hassell's guaranteed salary of $4.4 million for the 2009-10 season is more than double Stackhouse's $2 million guarantee.

Obstacle No. 1, of course, was the refusal of Mavericks forward Devean George to consent to being traded, which is George's right thanks to a little-known league rule that prevents certain players with one-year contracts from being dealt without their permission.

Dogged attempts over the past 48 hours by the Nets and Mavericks to convince George to relent have proven unsuccessful. Agent Mark Bartelstein has for days maintained his initial claim that "Devean is not inclined to change his stance." And George himself sounds even more determined to stay in Dallas now after Mavs coach Avery Johnson curiously responded to the furor caused by George's decision to play him for a combined 76 minutes in the two games since.

"If I can get minutes here, no brainer," George told reporters in Phoenix on Thursday night after logging a season-high 43 minutes in a loss for Dallas, more than he ever expected even with the Mavericks carrying several injuries. "I don't want to go nowhere."

Obstacle No. 2, meanwhile, was Stackhouse and what he said Wednesday afternoon when the trade was imminent. "I get 30 days to rest, then I'll be right back," Stackhouse told The Associated Press. "I ain't going nowhere."

Those comments prompted a widespread outcry from rival team executives, who contend that the statements prove Dallas and New Jersey have struck an illegal arrangement for the Nets to buy out Stackhouse's contract immediately and thus set him up to re-sign with the Mavs after a mandatory 30-day wait.

ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard reported Friday that the NBA has already informed the Mavericks that they won't be able to re-sign Stackhouse if they trade him to New Jersey and the Nets do buy him out, although league officials dispute that. Said NBA spokesman Brian McIntyre: "We are not investigating whether there was a prearranged deal between the Nets, Mavs and Stackhouse at this point."


Yet club sources say that Dallas remains convinced that the NBA's reaction would be a harsh one if Stackhouse isn't lifted from the deal, ranging from rejection of the trade entirely to a ban from re-signing Stackhouse to possibly even additional sanctions from the commissioner's office if it tries to keep the 33-year-old in the swap.


That's apparently one reason why the Mavericks are intent on replacing Stackhouse with Hassell and trying to solve their George problem by signing-and-trading the retired Keith Van Horn to the Nets along with 24-year-old point guard Devin Harris, center DeSagana Diop, guard Maurice Ager, two first-round picks and $3 million in cash for Kidd, forward Malik Allen and possibly guard Darrell Armstrong.

For the Nets, though, that's two key pieces -- George's expiring contract and Stackhouse's $6.75 million salary this season -- missing from the deal they thought they were getting.

"If he doesn't [change his mind]," Nets president Rod Thorn said of George in Saturday's editions of The New York Times, "it doesn't look that good for the deal."

Earlier Friday, Thorn acknowledged that the two teams were still searching for a workable trade combination, saying: "There are a lot of different scenarios that might be feasible."

But the Nets, sources say, regard Hassell over Stackhouse as a deal-breaker. And it has not yet been confirmed if Van Horn would be willing to physically report to New Jersey, which league sources say is a must if he's part of the deal. Sources say that the Los Angeles Lakers' recent acquisition of Pau Gasol was only approved by the league office when the retired Aaron McKie -- who was working as a volunteer assistant coach with Philadelphia when the Lakers called to inform him that they had to sign him and throw him in for salary-cap reasons -- agreed to join the Grizzlies as opposed to collecting checks in retirement.

Yet it also remains to be seen if the Mavericks and Nets are truly prepared to walk away from this trade after coming so far. Sources say that Dallas has resumed its longstanding attempts to recruit a third team to help facilitate the deal, but the league consensus holds that the Mavs are New Jersey's only realistic suitor for the 34-year-old point guard.

Kidd has been quietly hoping for a trade to Dallas all season and was so near to it Wednesday that the Nets held him out of their game that night in Toronto. Yet Kidd told reporters Friday that he'll be "at peace" even if the Nets (and the Mavs) are forced to pretend starting next Friday after the trade deadline passes that nothing happened.

"My gut said it was done," Kidd told The Dallas Morning News in New Orleans. "And it's been put on hold. I'm a big believer that things happen for a reason. Whatever happens is meant to happen. I'm a Net right now. But I would love to be a Mav if it works out."

Equally eager to see it is the Mavericks' Dirk Nowitzki, whose locker room -- still healing from the emotional fallout from eight losses in Dallas' last 10 playoff games -- has been rocked by the near-trade and all of its subplots. Even Kobe Bryant sounded sympathetic to Nowitzki's plight, remembering that it was the Nets and Lakers discussing a deal this time last year that almost sent Kidd to L.A.

"I don't know how he's dealing with this," Bryant said of Nowitzki, "[coming] that close to getting Jason Kidd."

Close enough for this trade to be resuscitated, then?

Said another source close to the negotiations: "The trade might be dying, but this thing has taken about eight turns so far. Who's to say it won't take one more turn?"

Avery and Cuban only have themselves to blame for playing D. George mucho minutes the last two games.

They should have sat his ass even if they thought it would cost them a win or two.

It may happen! Again!


It's looking more and more like Jason Kidd's start for the road team in Sunday's NBA All-Star Game will indeed be his farewell to the Eastern Conference.

That's because the New Jersey Nets and Dallas Mavericks are again closing in on a deal that would send Kidd back to his original team, according to NBA front-office sources.

A reconfigured trade likely won't be submitted for league approval until Monday -- and is bound to draw a longer-than-usual examination from the league before it's approved after the many complications that derailed the teams' original agreement on Wednesday -- but sources say that the Mavericks and Nets have reached a tentative agreement on the two major changes to save the blockbuster swap.

Sources say Mavs swingman Trenton Hassell and the retired Keith Van Horn will be plugged into the trade in place of Jerry Stackhouse and Devean George. If the newly proposed deal goes through, New Jersey would receive 24-year-old point guard Devin Harris, center DeSagana Diop, guard Maurice Ager, forwards Hassell and Van Horn, two first-round draft picks and $3 million in cash for Kidd and Nets forward Malik Allen.

To make up for the removal of George -- who blocked his inclusion by citing a little-known league rule that prevents certain players with one-year contracts from being traded without their consent -- Dallas has secured Van Horn's participation via sign-and-trade in George's place. Out of the game since the 2006 NBA Finals, Van Horn will be required to report to New Jersey and submit to a physical to complete the transaction, with sources adding that the amount Van Horn receives this season -- believed to be more than $4 million -- will not be pro-rated even though Van Horn would be joining the Nets with less than half the season remaining.

The Nets, meanwhile, have apparently given their blessing to taking Hassell from Dallas instead of Stackhouse. The Mavericks have been pushing for that switch since Friday in the wake of Stackhouse's quotes Wednesday that gave the impression that the teams had already arranged for the Nets to immediately buy out the 33-year-old's contract so the Mavericks could re-sign him after a 30-day waiting period.

It's believed that New Jersey had been resisting Hassell because his guaranteed salary in 2009-2010 ($4.4 million) is more than twice as much as Stackhouse's guarantee that season ($2 million) and because Hassell might be less amenable to a buyout than Stackhouse. But it looks as though the Nets will consent to the change to end a saga that had dragged on for days because George unexpectedly blocked the trade, even though they preferred the long-term financial implications of taking Stackhouse and buying him out.

If Van Horn's inclusion is sanctioned by the league Monday, this deal will likewise create a bigger luxury-tax bill for Mavs owner Mark Cuban than the original, with Dallas keeping Stackhouse and George.

At its core, though, both teams appear poised to ultimately get what they wanted in spite of a growing list of obstacles.

Dallas would come out of the protracted negotiations with an elite veteran point guard for the first time since Steve Nash's departure in the summer of 2004. Kidd's arrival also creates a foursome to rival any star core in the West -- along with Dirk Nowitzki, Josh Howard and Jason Terry -- and a likely antidote to the Mavericks' well-chronicled troubles with mental toughness, confidence and leadership in back-to-back playoff humblings by Miami and Golden State.

The bottom-line equation would stay the same for New Jersey as well, with Nets president Rod Thorn coming away with a highly regarded young point guard to replace Kidd in Harris, two expiring contracts (Diop and Van Horn) and the two first-round picks. It's a pretty good haul for a 34-year-old whose recent public disclosure that it was time for the Nets to trade him could have weakened Thorn's bargaining position.

its official


The new deal -- as reported by various media outlets Sunday night, all citing anonymous sources -- has Kidd and forward Malik Allen going to Dallas for point guard Devin Harris, center DeSagana Diop and swingman Maurice Ager, plus a few new pieces: retired forward Keith Van Horn and Trenton Hassell.

New Jersey also will get two first-round draft picks and $3 million.

Not official until the league checks it out today in a conference call.

Looks like it's official:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-nets-maverickstrade&prov=ap&type=lgns

That deal for Fazekus would never work. The contracts don't match up. If we didn't have to match contracts, I'd trade Brezec for him straight up (not that Dallas would EVER do that deal).
Still think they wouldn't have traded Nick for Brezec?


Dallas also announced it waived forward Nick Fazekas (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4312/;_ylt=AklMeK6EYaXZ7_NlVJC3RSaLvLYF), the 34thoverall pick in the 2007 draft.

Would Dallas trade us Juwan Howard and a 1st for Brezec and a 2nd?

Hmmmmmm. I wouldn't mind picking him up and either sending him to the D-League or keeping him around instead of Brezec. Brezec isn't playing anyway, so why not bring in some more young talent to see if it develops.

I wouldn't cut Brezec though. We could get a pick for him easily.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to just cut him. Teams would easily drop a 2nd rounder to us for a 7-footer.

Kidd trade to Mavs will cost Dallas $11 million more than original deal
By Marc Stein
ESPN.com

Marc Stein Reports Kidd Deal Official. The trade-related limbo that has ensnared the New Jersey Nets, Dallas Mavericks and Jason Kidd for almost a week is finally over.


"It's done," Mavericks owner Mark Cuban told ESPN.com via e-mail Tuesday afternoon. "J-Kidd is a Mav."

The trade of Kidd back to his original team is the second deal that the teams have hashed out since last Wednesday. Both teams had been operating under the assumption they finally had a binding agreement since Monday night, when Kidd was excused from the Nets' first practice after the All-Star break and immediately made plans to travel to Texas on Tuesday.

Perhaps no NBA swap has ever tested the never-done-until-it's-done maxim more than this one, but sources close to the process said the teams received formal league approval in a conference call that ended at roughly 12:30 p.m. ET Tuesday, after Keith Van Horn appeared to have clinched the deal Monday night with his highly anticipated sign-off.



Those details: Kidd, forward Malik Allen and swingman Antoine Wright sent to Dallas for 24-year-old point guard Devin Harris, center DeSagana Diop, swingman Trenton Hassell, guard Maurice Ager, Van Horn via sign-and-trade, first-round draft picks this June and in 2010 and $3 million in cash. The teams originally planned to move Wright to Dallas in a separate transaction but were able to make the salary-cap math work in a single trade after the deal was reconfigured over the weekend.



"This trade provides us with immediate help, most notably with the acquisition of Devin Harris, who we consider one of the rising young point guards in the NBA," Nets president Rod Thorn said in a statement. "Harris' numbers have improved each of his four years in the league, and we feel that he has a significant upside. This trade also will give us two future first-round draft picks and will give us flexibility to improve our roster."




No Kidding Around

Jason Kidd, despite being a month away from turning 35, is still producing at a high level. Only two others, Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson, have met his averages (below) over the course of a season, and they did so in their early- and mid-20s.

Kidd by the numbers Career 2007-08
Points 14.3 11.3
Assists 9.2 10.4
Rebounds 6.7 8.1
FG Pct. 40.1 *36.6
*Career worst

After a roller-coaster Sunday in which the teams believed they were on the verge of a done deal, yet again, sources said, Van Horn and his agent David Falk spent much of Monday giving assurances to NBA officials that the 32-year-old will make a genuine attempt to make a comeback with the Nets.


The Nets and Mavs had come away from All-Star Weekend with renewed fears that Van Horn wouldn't want to meet the league's stipulations for his inclusion or couldn't actually bring himself to leave his family and business interests in Colorado, according to sources.



Sources close to the process insist, however, that the league has not imposed any time requirements for staying with the Nets that Van Horn must meet to collect the full $4.3 million he's scheduled to receive for the rest of the season. Sources say Van Horn -- much like Aaron McKie in Memphis after the Pau Gasol trade to the Lakers on Feb. 1 -- merely had to convince the league office that he will indeed report to New Jersey and that he's serious about resuming his career after nearly two years out of the game.


It's believed that both the Mavericks and Nets also lobbied hard to contest what they feared for much of Monday to be stricter demands on the Van Horn portion of the deal. Both teams did so knowing that the league doesn't have an iron-clad policy on such matters or any mention of this scenario in its current labor agreement.


League sources told ESPN.com last week that the Gasol trade would have been disallowed had McKie not reported to Memphis to make himself available to play for the Grizzlies.

NBA president of league and basketball operations Joel Litvin acknowledged Saturday in New Orleans that deciding whether to allow unofficially retired players like McKie and Van Horn to be added to a trade is judged on a "case-by-case" basis.



McKie might have been a different case anyway, since the Lakers had to extricate the 35-year-old from a coaching job in Philadelphia before signing and trading him as part of their package for Gasol. It's also a misnomer to suggest that Van Horn's career was ever over, as he and Falk have long maintained since the player's departure from the NBA after the 2006 Finals with Dallas that they considered it more of an open-ended break after playing for five teams in a span of five seasons. They always left open the possibility that the 6-foot-10 forward would return. In each of the past two offseasons, Van Horn has rebuffed considerable interest from free-agent suitors to enjoy his private life after a lucrative nine-year career.

"It's a very aberrational situation," Falk said earlier Monday, referring to the roller-coaster nature of the Kidd trade as well as the depiction of Van Horn coming out of retirement at 32 to save a trade that bails out two of his former teams.

"He's a man of very high integrity and a family man with a lot of responsibilities," Falk said.

The weekend's uncertainty surrounding Van Horn was the third major stumbling block to a deal that dribbled between imminent and going away since last Wednesday. That's when Dallas and New Jersey reached an agreement in principle on the original seven-player deal, only for Devean George to unexpectedly prevent the Mavericks from including him in the move, citing a little-known rule that prevents certain players with one-year contracts from being traded without their consent.

Eyebrow-raising comments from Jerry Stackhouse about returning to Dallas in 30 days after the trade went through then prompted the Mavericks to insist that Stackhouse be pulled out of the trade, requiring Dallas and New Jersey to make two major alterations.

The first step was Dallas and New Jersey agreeing that Hassell would replace Stackhouse. The second step required Dallas to release rookie Nick Fazekas, which it did Tuesday to create a roster spot for Van Horn, and then sign-and-trade him in George's place. Van Horn is eligible for that maneuver because he never filed his retirement papers and because the Mavericks never renounced his rights.

As a result, Kidd might be able to make his Mavericks return as soon as Wednesday night in New Orleans.

Kidd shared NBA Rookie of the Year honors with Grant Hill in 1994-95 and left Dallas in acrimony less than two seasons later in a trade with Phoenix.

Thorn had nothing but compliments about Kidd and his time in New Jersey.

"Jason Kidd has been the best player to wear a Nets uniform during my current tenure with the Nets," added Thorn. "He was the toughest competitor with the fiercest will to win and he was the main component in the most successful period in the Nets NBA history. Jason is a first ballot Hall of Famer and the man most responsible for transforming the Nets into a high quality NBA team. We wish him nothing but success in his future endeavors."




Nets coach Lawrence Frank echoed Thorn's view of Kidd.

"He's a once-in-a-lifetime type of guy to play with and coach," Frank told The Associated Press, referring to Kidd. "He's had an unbelievable impact on everyone in this organization and we wish him nothing but the best."

Now Frank and the Nets can move on with several new pieces in place on their revamped roster.

"We were in a holding pattern for so long, now there's no more holding, no more waiting," Frank said. "You've got six or seven teams thirsting for the playoffs, and we're going to have to hit the ground running and adjust, and we're certainly capable of doing that."



Doing the deal this way to bring Kidd back after all these years will cost Cuban $11-plus million more this season than the maiden version of the trade that included George and Stackhouse, courtesy of payroll rises and luxury-tax costs. But it means that Dallas again has an elite-level point guard for the first time since the contentious departure of Steve Nash in the summer of 2004 and puts Kidd alongside Josh Howard, Jason Terry and reigning MVP Dirk Nowitzki in one of the most impressive cores in the wilder-than-ever West.



Kidd will wear jersey No. 2 when he makes his debut with the Mavericks.



The Mavs' most significant loss in the deal might prove to be Diop, who played a big role in their ride to the '06 Finals as half of a two-headed center tandem alongside Erick Dampier. This is an especially risky time to lose size in the West, after the Lakers landed Gasol and Phoenix's blockbuster move for Shaquille O'Neal. Dallas, though, simply couldn't pass on the chance to address its well-chronicled issues with mental toughness, confidence and floor leadership with one move after two of the most humbling playoff exits in league history.



Cuban sounded optimistic the trade will help the Mavs deep into the playoffs.

"We are excited to have Jason back," Cuban said. "He, Malik and Antoine add a new dimension to the Mavs that we hope will take us to the next level."


Although they both downplayed it during All-Star Weekend, sources say Nowitzki became even more tantalized by the idea of being teamed again with a point guard from Nash's class after his brief interactions with Kidd in New Orleans. Kidd, for his part, couldn't stop himself after Sunday's game from referring to Nowitzki as "my teammate" already.


But the bottom-line equation appeals to the Nets as well, even after all the complications. Thorn will be coming away with a highly regarded young Kidd successor in Harris, two expiring contracts (Diop and Van Horn) and the two first-round picks. The deal for the Nets sounds like a pretty good haul for a point guard who turns 35 in March and whose recent public disclosure that he thought it was time for the Nets to trade him could have weakened Thorn's bargaining position.

"I have a new future to look forward to," Harris told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. "I'm looking forward to having a little bit more control, a little bit more freedom over there. I love my teammates here, so it's mixed emotions, but I'm excited about the new challenge."

Marc Stein is the senior NBA writer for ESPN.com. To e-mail him, click here. The Associated Press contributed to this report.

$11 million more than originally planned. I wonder how much of that will come out of George's pocket.

The Mavs are going to start switching practice times without telling George just so they can fine him.

Either that or Cuban is just going to kill him.

Seriously though, I bet this costs him some cash on the open market. HE's a "troublemaker" now.

It's laughable that George didn't want to go because he had hopes that Dallas would sign and trade him someplace else this summer.

What are the odds of that happening now that he's cost Cubes $11m?

What are the odds that he even sees the court? The fans are going to hate him.

this trade might help the mavs. but i think it is a very good deal for the nets too. harris is a real nice young guy and the 2 picks, even if they're late, will come in handy.

considering kidd is 35 and doesn't have too much longer to go, this is a great deal for them. for dallas it is good because it could possibly push them over the hump. (although i doubt it because they have needs at C and PF too)

but at least they can justify it by saying kidd makes their whole team better and could lead them to a title.

Poor Nick Fazekas.

I think it'd be hilarious if Van Horn just started showing up at Nets practices and being like "I'm ready coach, put me in".

Seriously, though, did this guy have a backdoor deal with Stack and George to sabotage this one? Talk about a lucky schmuck. "Mr. VanHorn, as much as you were blatantly overpaid your entire career, we now want to give you another $4 Million so that we can sneak through a loophole in the NBA's CBA."

Seriously, and Van Horn was said to be unsure whether he wanted to get involved? Get out of here.

Sooooo...

It happened?

We should sign and trade Elden Campbell and Dale Davis.

Haha, Dallas is getting screwed in this deal. In a fantasy world, it would be funny to see New Jersey winning it all and laughing at Devean George and Jason Kidd.

I still think Joe D. is going to make a move, Mike Miller or a big.

Honestly, like I said earlier, this trade will go down as Dallas getting raped by NJ. Especially with 2 first round picks in the deal.

If I was NJ I would be excited for getting a stud young pg, 2 first rounders, a serviceable backup Center and some guys you could trade that have a few yrs left on their contracts.

Go Pistons.

Why not Lambs and JoeD while we're at it. Maybe we could sign-and-trade Isiah to the Knicks for whatever it is they have that has any value. Do you think Thomas WOULDN'T want to trade for himself?

Honestly, like I said earlier, this trade will go down as Dallas getting raped by NJ. Especially with 2 first round picks in the deal.

If I was NJ I would be excited for getting a stud young pg, 2 first rounders, a serviceable backup Center and some guys you could trade that have a few yrs left on their contracts.

Go Pistons.

I think Dallas almost had to include those 2 first round picks, because they won't be able to pay them (or won't want to) anyways.

They are clearly going for it now, and I think that is commendible.

Why not Lambs and JoeD while we're at it. Maybe we could sign-and-trade Isiah to the Knicks for whatever it is they have that has any value. Do you think Thomas WOULDN'T want to trade for himself?

Funny, but I'm sure they've "retired"

What players of ours have not retired yet? are EC and DD on that list? DC?

van horn has to be laughing- he'll get just over $4 million for about 2 month's 'work'. if he even sticks around that long.

van horn has to be laughing- he'll get just over $4 million for about 2 month's 'work'. if he even sticks around that long.

I wonder if Van Horn will donate that money to the Mormon church or something. Also, is this just the cherry on top of Van Horn's claim to being the most overpaid person in the history of the world. The dude gets $4 million for wearing a suit to watch a few games at courtside. I better see some Mateen-esque towel waving.

Also, I've actually warmed up to the idea of the shaq deal working out for the suns, but this is a terrible deal for the mavs. kidd is washed up and now they don't have anyone to guard parker/paul/nash.

I think Dallas almost had to include those 2 first round picks, because they won't be able to pay them (or won't want to) anyways.

They are clearly going for it now, and I think that is commendible.



No doubt it's commendable that Dallas it at least giving it a shot. I wish our GM would finally get a clue and try to do the same. The pistons finally have tradeable pieces that could potentially land a guy that can help put them over the hump towards legitimately contending for a championship. Yes, the kids are playing well against the indianas, charlotte’s and atlanta's of the world (even Billy King is trying to improve!), I'm not so sure it's wise to trust them to perform when the games actually matter.

No doubt it's commendable that Dallas it at least giving it a shot. I wish our GM would finally get a clue and try to do the same.
I'm sure you'll be very understanding if they dont win jack shit. Dallas hasnt ever held a trophy, and we should look to make moves like them? No thanks. Kudos to Dallas, but they had more to trade and still have a team. We possibly fall off after giving up what some teams want in exchange for an elite player with no attitude issues to bring his value down.

Doesn't matter if this deal works out for Dallas or not, this will end up being one of the best, if not the best, playoffs ever (well, out West anyway).

I am salivating at the first round matchup possibilities.

i like the deal for both teams.

if your dallas, you got to be tired of being one of the best teams not to win it every year.

they saw a way to clearly upgrade the team and did it. sometimes you gotta just put your cards on the table. (kidd is NOT washed up btw, check out league leaders in 3/2's, hes got almost as many as the rest of the league combined).

the pistons arent in the same position though. what are we going to do to drastically improve our chances of winning? mike miller? he'd be an upgrade... maybe. but put us over the top? nah. and at what cost.

lets say we have a 10% chance of winning a title this year. we really have no holes, i think max and stuckey are pretty strong 6 and 7 men. i cant really concieve of any realistic trade that improves our chances all that much where it would be worth sacrificing a future stud. now, if it was trading an AA to improve our chances to like 15% i'd do it. i just dont see it, though.

ps, i realize i said earlier i thought NJ got taken to the cleaners and now just said i liked the deal for them.

i expected NJ to get screwed in trading kidd. getting harris and 2 picks is ok for kidd, i guess.

but its not a ton for perennial superstar. those picks are late first rounders (not exactly a ton of value there) and harris is yet to take that next step (maybe he does that in NJ). they save $ i guess. but kidd had one year left on his deal.

if im NJ i probably would have tried to get j. oneal for scraps and make one last run at it.

people, i think, forgot what shithole NJ was until kidd got there. my guess is theyre going back that way for a long time.

I still think NJ got the far better end. Yes, Kidd is a superstar. but, it's very hard to get a solid PG in this league and Harris is that. NJ didn't get a swingman or a PF (as the main piece). In fact, the 2nd piece is a servicable center, which are even harder to come by. If Kidd made 10-13 mil then they probably could have gotten more teams in there. Denver would have been offering players, cleveland too. I'm not sure a better deal was out there, but definately more teams. There aren't a whole lot of trade partners for a 20 mil player, even if he's good.

finally, the league needs to fix the cba. i like the integritty these trades are supposed to have w/ all these restrictions. its cool that you have to match salaries. its kind of like putting together a puzzle getting a trade to work.

but none of these trades make any sense. what in the world is kieth van horn doing in a trade? how is kg being traded for theo ratliff? why are guys getting traded and then bought out?

it used to be that a trade happened in the nba and when you discussed who won the trade you talked about good players, not good contracts. nba needs to go back to that.

i bet diop returns to being a giant sack of shit in NJ.

I'm sure you'll be very understanding if they dont win jack shit. Dallas hasnt ever held a trophy, and we should look to make moves like them? No thanks. Kudos to Dallas, but they had more to trade and still have a team. We possibly fall off after giving up what some teams want in exchange for an elite player with no attitude issues to bring his value down.


Not saying we should model ourselves after the glorious past of the dallas mavericks or their perilous future just I completely applaud a team and management taking a shot to win even if they come up short. I'm merely a fan and derive enjoyment when my team tries to win championships rather than standing pat with mediocrity or a team that's not good enough to win....unless management preaches to us they are playing for the future which isn't the case of this current Detroit Pistons squad.

Take a chance, fill in the pieces and see if this veteran-led club can regain the motivation to compete for a championship this year. 2009 be damned!!!

I like Afflalo, Stuckey and Amir but they aren't good enough alone to win this year and the rest of the team isn't getting any younger.

The western conference can be taken this year, there's no doubt about that in my mind. I'd like to see the pistons be the team to take them. I don't think the team as it currently stands is quite good enough to do it...but they're close.

It's time to light a fire under this team's collective asses. As a fan I say why not?

Not saying we should model ourselves after the glorious past of the dallas mavericks or their perilous future just I completely applaud a team and management taking a shot to win even if they come up short. I'm merely a fan and derive enjoyment when my team tries to win championships rather than standing pat with mediocrity or a team that's not good enough to win....unless management preaches to us they are playing for the future which isn't the case of this current Detroit Pistons squad.

Take a chance, fill in the pieces and see if this veteran-led club can regain the motivation to compete for a championship this year. 2009 be damned!!!

I like Afflalo, Stuckey and Amir but they aren't good enough alone to win this year and the rest of the team isn't getting any younger.

The western conference can be taken this year, there's no doubt about that in my mind. I'd like to see the pistons be the team to take them. I don't think the team as it currently stands is quite good enough to do it...but they're close.

It's time to light a fire under this team's collective asses. As a fan I say why not?

Not saying we should model ourselves after the glorious past of the dallas mavericks or their perilous future just I completely applaud a team and management taking a shot to win even if they come up short. I'm merely a fan and derive enjoyment when my team tries to win championships rather than standing pat with mediocrity or a team that's not good enough to win....unless management preaches to us they are playing for the future which isn't the case of this current Detroit Pistons squad.
You applaud selling your two first round picks for a guy who is past his prime? Applaud Dallas if you want(i applaud them myself for the record), but gambles like that are dangerous to your longevity. And I doubt theres anything or anyone we could get and keep enough players to be a better team. I think you're being naive wishing that we took more risk in compromising our team for big trades.


Take a chance, fill in the pieces and see if this veteran-led club can regain the motivation to compete for a championship this year. 2009 be damned!!!
You're bullshitting yourself sideways. You dont even believe this team can win a title with Flip as coach 2008 be damned, but yet you want us to go for big trades this year. You're getting a weird penis envy for these other teams trades it seems. First its flip, now its the uninspired roster.


I like Afflalo, Stuckey and Amir but they aren't good enough alone to win this year and the rest of the team isn't getting any younger.
Thats not a proven fact. Careful how you see that so early. And their job isnt as big as you seem to believe. they just need to be productive and bring energy. I think they are capable by far of that. Far more capable than anything we had last year.


The western conference can be taken this year, there's no doubt about that in my mind. I'd like to see the pistons be the team to take them. I don't think the team as it currently stands is quite good enough to do it...but they're close.
Again where did this garbage come from? Now we're not good enough? Giving up on the "flip cant coach a title team" angle? Or just pouting for the hell of it again?


It's time to light a fire under this team's collective asses. As a fan I say why not?
Yea, we are playing like shit with no bench production last in the east. If we want to make the playoffs, we better do something.

I applaud team's that try to win and not settle for what they have when what they have isn't good enough and therefore, as a fan, I would be happy if I were a Dallas Mavericks fan. And those 2 very late first round draft choices weren't going to get them anywhere near closer to winning a championship in 2009 and 2011 than what Jason Kidd does for them this year. Devin Harris may be good but I'm sick of people always sticking up for the "potential" that players have. He's been in the league a while now...maybe he's just not that good.

Dallas had trouble on the offensive end. They have trouble creating shots for themselves and others. Terry, Howard and Nowitzki all are very talented players but they struggled to create shots. Devin Harris wasn't getting it done and wasn't going to get it done.

Jason Kidd is very proven at making players better. Have you seen him play? (from the days of Chris Gatling to last year of Mikki Moore, just look at how many outstanding contracts Jason Kidd has given his fellow teammates over the last decade....)

Plus the mavericks are now going to play with a fire under their ass which plays a large role in how teams perform.

And you're right in that I think Flip Saunders is a moron and this team will never win with him at the helms but who knows? Maybe talent will supersede idiocy in leadership (like I think will occur with Boston this year). I'd love to see it!

Worse case (or maybe best case!) scenario is that we make a trade for more talent and we still underachieve in the postseason (which has occurred ever year with Flip). That would mean his departure and the pistons having a talent-rich team in 2008-09 with a real coach at the helms.

And I've never said this team is talented enough to win as is. You apparently keep track of my previous statements. I dare you to find me ever saying this.

So, again, why not try and improve? You may want to keep the train running as is only to watch us lose in the second round of the playoffs but I'm getting a little sick of playoff futility.

And it's my opinion that stuckey, afflalo, hayes, maxiell (whom I'm very disappointed in lately) and johnson aren't going to get it done when it counts against the good teams. For years Dumars has let this bench continue to mire itself in shit when it was obvious the starters weren't good enough to get it done on their own. He finally made some decent adjustments but by largely solving the problem with very young, unseasoned players.

Unseasoned players don't win championships in this league unless your name is Magic Johnson or larry bird. Afflalo, stuckey and johnson are nice players that could some day be nice NBA players......they aren't talented enough yet to win anything for this team. Just my opinion. I don't see how that's so hard to understand why someone would think that?

And this team with us seeing how the starters underperform year in and year out in the playoffs makes it that much more imperative that we have above average players coming off the bench (or GASP even try to upgrade the starters!). These kids are too young and just might not be good enough. We still don't know which is not good as the playoffs approach.

And yes, I think this is a down year for the western conference judging by the fact that no one is running away with it. Each team has flaws. I think there are at least 6 teams that can win that conference and that tournament post-season is going to be a dog fight. I think the eastern conference can win the championship this year.

Again, just my opinion (and I'm usually right).

So keep thinking this team is good enough (if that's what you're saying, it's hard to tell since you're too busy bashing me instead of formulating an opinion of your own. Do you think this team is good enough? Ok, why? Who is the dominant force in the western conference? Why are they unbeatable? Please expound).

I could fucking care less that the Detroit Pistons have the second best record in the eastern conference this year. That is absolutely, completely meaningless. If it's all about making the playoffs for you than you should be really happy regardless of how things turn out. I want a little more.

You did a good job of bringing your point until you said

I could care less
At that exact moment, I entirely disregarded everything you said. That's a huge pet peeve.

Again, just my opinion (and I'm usually right).
Lost me here. Usually right for you is you only chime in when things fit your perspective. Doesnt make you usually right. Either way good luck envying the dallas mavericks.

You did a good job of bringing your point until you said

At that exact moment, I entirely disregarded everything you said. That's a huge pet peeve.

I feel like the san antonio spurs do in that playoff seeding/home court advantage is meaningless. I don't care if the pistons are seeded 1 or 8 as long as they are good enough to win the championship. Making the playoffs and regular season success no longer mean that much to me with this squad (back in 2001 it meant a heck of a lot more).

Dallas had one of the best records in the history of the league last year and look what that got them. The pistons the year before same thing. Regular season records are practically useless since so many teams make the playoffs.

Lost me here. Usually right for you is you only chime in when things fit your perspective. Doesnt make you usually right. Either way good luck envying the dallas mavericks.

I defintely envy the dallas mavericks having mark cuban as their owner. If he owned the pistons I think he'd be willing to take a chance on improving this team and trying to win.

Worse case (or maybe best case!) scenario is that we make a trade for more talent and we still underachieve in the postseason (which has occurred ever year with Flip). That would mean his departure and the pistons having a talent-rich team in 2008-09 with a real coach at the helms.

You vastly underestimate the worst case. The worst case is we end up like every other team in the east over the last six years.

Every single one of them had a brief 1-2 year window where they peaked and flamed out. Every one of them. Out of all those teams, only one--miami--managed to get a title out of it.

For that matter, nobody in the west has blockbustered their way to a championship lately either.

I defintely envy the dallas mavericks having mark cuban as their owner. If he owned the pistons I think he'd be willing to take a chance on improving this team and trying to win.

I agree %100. If Cuban owned this team we'd trade Brezec, Hermann and Flip for Mike Miller. Joe doesn't have the green light to exceed the cap by much because he knows if he approaches tax level he won't have any room to improve his team.

I honestly think that if the Grizz were willing to make that trade, we'd have made it already or we'd be in the process of making it.

I would hope so, but I'm not sure. That would basically put us just under the tax level after drafting. Joe would have to be comfortable with Stuckey, AA, Miller, Max, Amir and 2 rookies as the bench. I would be, but maybe he's not sure about counting on Max and Amir to backup C. He likes to have a vet backup center on the roster and this would keep him from having one unless we can exceed the tax level. Even though we don't use them, he likes to have the "Shaq stopper" there (EC, DC, DD, etc) in case.

I just watched the skills competition. Jason Kidds son has a giant head. Its not even just for his age either. The kid is like 8 and his head is huge compared to the head of a full grown man, like when he sat next to Deron Williams head!

We could pick up a backup center for the vets min or close to it. I'd be happy with that trade. What are we going to go after in the offseason? Probably a solid backup SF. Well, trade your expirings for that guy and then you don't have to worry about trying to sign him with that cap space, potentially losing out on him to another team. Then pick up a C at the minimum or trade one of your younger guys for the C.

I just watched the skills competition. Jason Kidds son has a giant head. Its not even just for his age either. The kid is like 8 and his head is huge compared to the head of a full grown man, like when he sat next to Deron Williams head!

You just hate his son because he's got some black in him.

Actually, I think the kid's older than 8. He's probably like 13 or so now.

I agree %100. If Cuban owned this team we'd trade Brezec, Hermann and Flip for Mike Miller. Joe doesn't have the green light to exceed the cap by much because he knows if he approaches tax level he won't have any room to improve his team.
If Cuban was owner, we may not even have any of these guys. We possibly have an overpaid Al Harrington now and chemistry issues out the ass.

You vastly underestimate the worst case. The worst case is we end up like every other team in the east over the last six years.

Every single one of them had a brief 1-2 year window where they peaked and flamed out. Every one of them. Out of all those teams, only one--miami--managed to get a title out of it.

For that matter, nobody in the west has blockbustered their way to a championship lately either.
Exactly, I dont envy shit about that scenario. Our team is built to survive past losses and mistakes(i.e. wallace gone, darko bust, delfino not fitting). We make gambles and mistakes gambling at dallas level, we're fucked. Of course envying any team that has less titles than your own team and has choked more often on a bigger level is a lil ironic.

there are times when you put your cards on the table, others its better to hold off.

this year, there are probably 3 reasons why its better to stand pat:

1) its a huge arms race right now. seems like every contender is attempting to peak THIS year (not all, but this year's champ will be tougher to win than most).

2) theres not really a realistic addition that puts us over the top.

3) kinda related to #2, we really dont have any holes.

....

i HATE the malaise that this franchise is in, where seemingly good is good enough. to me, you should be trying to win it all every year. but i think we might win it this year, and our odds of winning it with the guys we have are as good as with adding a piece (unless joe really pulls something out of his ass). i dont see a need to mortgage a bright future just to marginally increase our odds of winning it all.

If Cuban was owner, we may not even have any of these guys. We possibly have an overpaid Al Harrington now and chemistry issues out the ass.

Actually, we'd probably have Ben's shitty contract.

Actually, we'd probably have Ben's shitty contract.
That too.

Honestly having a cap effects your thinking differently than a free hand to sign whoever. I think we can't be for sure that we make good moves with more options to choose from.

8 points, 6 rebounds, 5 assists in 36 minutes.

Chris Paul showed no mercy on him.

J-Kidd doesn't fill any major needs. Their problem was scoring in the paint and now with Diop gone they won't be able to defend the paint. 1st round exit by Dallas.