What do you think? Please, I know how as a community we tend to run with things, please keep this civil and back up your arguments.

no, not inside job. ill try to keep it civil, but uhhh, definitly not inside job.

Bubbles would enjoy this thread.

no, not inside job. ill try to keep it civil, but uhhh, definitly not inside job.

Care to elaborate at all?

not really. even though im religious, ill compare 9/11 truthers to creationists.

the official 9/11 take has some cracks, but is more or less a pretty good explanation of what happens.

truthers see a minuscule of falseness in the report and think it means the whole thing is flawed. then they offer some way out of leftfield alternative theory that wouldnt stand 1/10000000 the scrutiny of the official report.

the evolution / creationism comparison is the same way. our theories of evolution arent right, but they are much more right than wrong. everytime evolution's theory is adjusted to make it more precise, creationists say "see, we knew it wasnt right".

the arguments for the original 9/11 conspiracy, the stuff that probably got you interested, have all pretty much been explained. its turned into x-files, 'i want to believe' type shit.

Inside job by who Eray? The owners of the building for insurance? The Port Authority? Bush?

No way our govt. could pull that shit off.

Inside job by who Eray? The owners of the building for insurance? The Port Authority? Bush?

People not named Osama Bin Laden. I am still a little ignorant on the subject, that's why I'm trying to get a variety of perspectives. Bush, CIA, Federal Reserve, etc, I don't know. It's scientifically impossible for a plane to incinerate upon impact because of jet fuel (the Pentagon). The CIA confiscated the video that had whatever it was that hit the Pentagon hitting the Pentagon. That's just one of the many things that baffles me.

I was in the Air Force and I can say on my mother and fathers grave that JP4 and 5 and flamable. Just think of jet fuel more like diesel than gas.

and that you dont need to totaly melt steal for a building to lose structural integrity...

Once one floor goes, its a stack of pancakes.

Where did the steel infrastructure go?

I think it took about 3 months but they had those big loaders and they loaded it on dump trucks which dumped in on the barges that took it to NJ where they went through almost every inch of it.

Thats where a lot of the engineers were able to study it.

I may not like Gdub, or republicans, but an inside job? Oh FUCK no, at least as far as for those who think the US Gubmint "let" it happen or something.

Now, ineptitude, and infighting among our intelligence agencies and all that, and possibly the naive belief that something like this could never be pulled off, maybe.

The government certainly duped the public on the responce to it, but I don't think they were behind it.

I think it took about 3 months but they had those big loaders and they loaded it on dump trucks which dumped in on the barges that took it to NJ where they went through almost every inch of it.

Thats where a lot of the engineers were able to study it.

Not what I meant--what I mean is, per the pancake theory, the vertical beams should have been standing at least a little while after the collapse.

Not what I meant--what I mean is, per the pancake theory, the vertical beams should have been standing at least a little while after the collapse.
The vertical portions weren't single pieces. Each floor was its own set of bits that crumpled and got dragged down with the other stuff it was attached to until you just had a big pile of twisted crap at the bottom. This affect would be accelerated as each collapsing floor went down under the weight of all the floors above it.

This subject has been given plenty of excruciatingly detailed treatments in print and on tv with architects and engineers and you know, science. Here's just one example. It's lengthy and thorough and required reading for anyone entertaining conspiracy theories:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html

There is simply no one with better than tin foil hat credibility pushing "alternative" theories to fuel-laden jumbo jets causing the collapse.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/01/31/sot.clinton.hecklers.cspan

no offense, eray, i dont know you. but this kind of exemplifies "truthers" to me, and bill says exactly how i feel. he couldnt have said it better, really.

I don't "believe." I just entertain all ideas with an open mind, which is why I posted this to get all of your views.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/01/31/sot.clinton.hecklers.cspan

no offense, eray, i dont know you. but this kind of exemplifies "truthers" to me, and bill says exactly how i feel. he couldnt have said it better, really.

[smilie=great.gif]

I'm not so much into a 911 conspiracy theory as I am in the Fed. and CIA being shady as fuck.

Bubbles would enjoy this thread.

Holy fucking shit, YOU ARE TIM!!!!

As for the "pancake theory"
It's not scientific. If pancake theory were reality, sky skyscrapers would not exist.
You can test this pretty easy. Build a crude replication out of legos, or erector set, jenga , or whatever you want. And push your hand down on the top as hard as you can.
the mass on the top has to push through the mass below it.

The floor below each floor provides resistance in mass.
It's why we build sky scrapers. We are pretty confident that even if multiple floors failed due to fire, or explosions, the floors below would still hold load. It's why even with worse fires than the twin towers, steel framed sky scrappers have not totally collapsed. Top down uniform free fall into footprint collapses do not happen because they can't without many catalysts, ones that either existed on 9-11 or didn't.

With the twin towers, this was done at or near free fall speed.
That's not possible without a catalyst removing the mass before the top levels move.

Also, on videos, you can see load bearing shifts at the top of the collapse, these shifts should have acted a fulcrum and tipped the top over and down, but as this was happening, all the floors totally failed below it sucking it down into the footprint. That is impossible without mass being removed.
Keep in mind, the building fell in a uniform total collapse into it's own footprint.

For that to work, the load at all points has to fail simultaneously on each floor as each floor falls into the next.
Each floor contains different mass, even different construction at points. These variations would cause a tip. On 9-11, where there was a tip, it was corrected by mass being removed underneath it by explosions. Many floors below the so called "pancake" That isn't a theory, that is clearly visible on video.

keep this in mind, all proponents of the pancake theory have been unable to simulate a collapse scenario in any computer generation without first removing all mass of the floors, all load bearing weights on all floors, and the exterior walls which were a main weight baring support. And even in this models, the internal core still stands.

Pancake Theory is just that, a theory, it is a theory that is not supported by FEMA or the NSTB. The official purveyors of the official fable.
And there isn't even a conclusion for Building 7
To say you "believe" pancake theory, is in fact, belief.
.It is a theory that has been created by a group of people that conspired to give you an explanation that you otherwise might ask questions about.
If your answer to a conspiracy is a theory, then what exactly have you accomplished by placating your own cognitive dissonance?

and that you dont need to totaly melt steal for a building to lose structural integrity...

Irrelevant, the fact that steal melted points to temperatures that should not have existed from jet fuel and office fires.
That's the whole point of the melted steel argument, not the warping of beams created by heat. (that's a debate in itself too, the amount and severity of)

Inside job by who Eray? The owners of the building for insurance? The Port Authority? Bush?

That's not such an easy question to answer. It requires a theory because we don't have a real investigation. People accept the Osama theory (yes, theory) because it is what we are told to believe. And how was that determined? Not by an investigation, but on day of speculation.
We had an invasion ready to go into Afghanistan prior to 9-11, that sure is odd isn't it?
Why not ask that question.
Or why don't you ask who paid the hijackers.
The 9-11 commission wasn't interested in such meaningless details.
Because if you actually follow money , you find the truth.

where they went through almost every inch of it.

Thats where a lot of the engineers were able to study it.

Wrong, and you can easily verify this yourself. There wasn't the standard investigation you get with plane crashes and space ships blowing up. Only a small portion got any evaluation. And the team went in large part by speculation based on day of evidence. The post collapse evidence was removed, and is now gone.
Inch by Inch never happened, with any of the buildings.

It should also be noted, that a lot of these same people rotated into other reports, and have shady political connections.

I may not like Gdub, or republicans, but an inside job? Oh FUCK no, at least as far as for those who think the US Gubmint "let" it happen or something.

Now, ineptitude, and infighting among our intelligence agencies and all that, and possibly the naive belief that something like this could never be pulled off, maybe.

ineptitude can't change physics.
It's the favorite excuse of people out to screw you.
coverups BEFORE the fact, is not a sign of ineptitude, it's a sign of calculation.

It wasn't pulled off either, lots of people know it's a fraud. (at least 100 million in this country) You have numerous whistle blowers too. What they did pull off was creating a myth that you believe no matter what the evidence really says. The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it.
As soon as you start looking at facts for what they are, the myth deteriorates. And when that happens, they offer you another myth, and it's something of a long process. Until either you realize they are just offering you bullshit on top of bullshit, or they run out of bullshit.
I used to laugh at this shit, make fun of it, call everyone who talked about it a traitorous loon. I did that because I really never looked at the facts for what they were. And the reaosn for that is not even knowing how. I went to public school just like the rest of you. I grew up on TV like the rest of you. I got taught false history and force fed MSM propaganda every day just like everyone else.
Even on 9-11 I was surprised to see building 7 collapse. But after watching a week straight of coverage, being bombarded with all that propaganda, my questions were erased with explanations that I bought and then the ANTHRAX, and then the SNIPER , and then the IRAQ WAR. They just blunted the whole country into submission with it, constantly.






And by looking at facts, I don't mean posting what PopularMechanics has to say about it because I don't want to think for myself. Or watching some cool video online and taking it as gospel (some do contain a lot of info though)
That's what I mean by bullshit on top , of bullshit.
PM just offers speculation that even contradicts the official story , but because people view them as credible (god only knows why) they just accept it.
Or they attack straw men , like space beams, or reptile shape shifters, or who god damn knows what else, there are an equal share of bullshitters and loons.

Around every detail of any event. You have to ask a few questions.

Who benefits. Politically. Financially.
Who paid for it, where did the money come from, what conflicting interests exist if any.
Do the facts match the explanation?
Do I know what the facts are?
Do the facts stand up as facts?
What is the history of all the components of this event?
Has there been an effort to suppress information?

Once you start to apply this method to 9-11, you open up Pandora's box.

Don't ask me who did it, All I know is why. Same reason anything is done. Money, and Power. And don't be naive enough to think rogue elements of the government are beyond this kind of thing. They ahve been doing it internationally your entire life. They have done it domestically as well. If you have any education of history outside of "the education system" you know this already.

steal melted points
Any evidence that the melted metal was steel, chief? Can you point to an analysis of the alleged metal, or explain why melted steel makes more sense than aluminum or a similar metal with a lower melting point?

Good place to start looking:
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/canofficefirescauselargesteelcolumnsandb

Any evidence that the melted metal was steel, chief? Can you point to an analysis of the alleged metal, or explain why melted steel makes more sense than aluminum or a similar metal with a lower melting point?
Composition. Temperature. Volume. Time. Eyewitness. Photographic.
Or you could just try reading Fema's report instead of contradicting the official story to prove it.





http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/canofficefirescauselargesteelcolumnsandb
I've rode all the rides you have before, and from many different ways.
It's rare when anyone can provide me a website, book, video, document, or account I have not gone over already. What I want to know, is why a new york city tour guide is your mighty profit? And not the NIST http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

Maybe NIST and FEMA should get together for a better collaboration though. Sport.

Fortunately, Bubbles took the Red Pill and is here to free us all with his bad copy-and-paste job.

http://images.quizfarm.com/1130268505NEO.jpg

Fortunately, Bubbles took the Red Pill and is here to free us all with his bad copy-and-paste job.

http://images.quizfarm.com/1130268505NEO.jpg
If it's copy and pasted, you should be able to easily find out where I copy and pasted it from .

Good luck with that. Champ.

If it's copy and pasted, you should be able to easily find out where I copy and pasted it from .

Good luck with that. Champ.For your benefit, I hope it was copy and pasted. If you have that grammar structure, you have more problems than being delusional. Bitch.

Inside job by who Eray? The owners of the building for insurance? The Port Authority? Bush?

I do believe Paris Hilton has something to hide.

Hence, the mask.

For your benefit, I hope it was copy and pasted. If you have that grammar structure, you have more problems than being delusional. Bitch.

No argument there.

Props for eray for setting up the honeypot that drew out bubbles.

As for the "pancake theory"
It's not scientific.
Have any structural engineers, demolitions experts, civil engineers
argeeing with that statement?

If pancake theory were reality, sky skyscrapers would not exist.
You can test this pretty easy. Build a crude replication out of legos,
or erector set, jenga , or whatever you want. And push your hand down
on the top as hard as you can.
How is that a good parallel to a thin 110-story steel structure with a
big burning hole in the middle?


this was done at or near free fall speed.
Evidence?


uniform total collapse into it's own footprint.
Did you somehow miss everything with WTC7, 130 Liberty St, Deutshce
Bank, among others?
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2006/12/demoltion_begin.html


created by a group of people that
conspired to give you an explanation that you otherwise might ask
questions about.
Evidence?


If your answer to a conspiracy is a theory, then what exactly have you
accomplished by placating your own cognitive dissonance?
Gravity is a theory. Germ theory is a theory. Natural selection is a theory. What's your point?

You have numerous whistle blowers too.
I would LOVE to know who these whistle blowers are.

The pancake theory is sound.

The outside steel structure(columns) can handle the loads but the floor in the middle can't.

When the bolts (holding the floor trusses to the outside structure) were heated to hot as fuck, they began to shear off. The inside floor with lots of weight fell on the floor below. All of the sudden you have 2 floors on those same bolts on the next floor down (that wasn't engineered for that much weight) that were also hot as hell.

The weak link are the bolts holding the floor trusses to the columns.

Composition.
Evidence?

Temperature.
Evidence?

Volume.
Evidence?

Time.
Evidence?

Eyewitness.
Eyewitness accounts can tell you the composition of a pile of molten metal?
Photographic.
Same as above.




I've rode all the rides you have before, and from many different ways.
It's rare when anyone can provide me a website, book, video, document, or account I have not gone over already.
Then obviously there is some crucial bit of evidence you still seek. Mind sharing what that is so I can look for it?


What I want to know, is why a new york city tour guide is your mighty profit?
1. Ad hominem.
2. Irrelevant blather.


And not the NIST http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
I see nothing in that report claiming that there was any melted steel found at the site.

lol...

Some things aren't in the news because — unexciting as it may be to the mind of the conspiracy buff — they didn't happen. (http://althouse.blogspot.com/2008/02/fujita-grilled.html)

Bump. The Fords have some explaining to do.

I blame LDB for this treachery.

Stormtruthers. (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1920944)