With little-to-no inside presence?

Is it possible?

We've done this before. There's been one team in history that has done it IIRC.

We can be the 2nd. Sheed dice all take outside shots and even max is developing a 15 foot jumper.

When we won last time we had Corliss going inside. I can't think of anyone else we had that was an inside presence though.

I don;t think you could call Ben a presence, even if he had that one 29 point game in the playoffs vs the 76ers

The one where no one really guarded him and he got a ton of dunks and putbacks? I'm just guessing here, because that's the only way I can imagine him getting more than 15 points.

I don;t think you could call Ben a presence, even if he had that one 29 point game in the playoffs vs the 76ers

Yeah but he could grab offensive boards thus giving us tons of second chance scoring opportunites...

this summer, we better get an inside scorer, and move dyess back to the bench where he belongs...IMO

I think Joe tried to address this issue through the draft with Maxiell, and that looks like a major success, but it's just not enough.

When jumpers stop falling, this team is dead in the water, especially since they can't stop dribble penetration.

You can win with a jump shooting team if you have a guy that can dominate the defensive end of the floor (especially a guy that can secure defensive rebounds). Just look at the history of this franchise. Before it was Dennis Rodman (who needs to be in the Hall of Fame. He's one of the most dominant defensive players to ever play the game) and eventually it became Ben Wallace (who was the most important player on the Detroit Pistons 2004 team). The 89/90 championship teams were jump shooting teams.

Rodman was so good Chuck Daly was playing him to close out games as early as his rookie season and evantually was starting at the 3 over aguirre in 1990.

Chuck Daly recognizes the value of a Dennis Rodman. Flip Saunders would have played a guy that can hit a jump shot over him.

That team's rise to greatness coincided with the rise of Dennis Rodman. The energy he brought to both ends of the floor was a major reason for this team's past success (energy players are important despite what some people think) Dennis Rodman is severely under-rated.

Same thing with Ben Wallace (although he's not quite as good as Rodman).

The pistons lack this presence this season which is why they will not win with this current lineup.

The problem is we do have a dominate inside presence - offensively. He just refuses to play there. If Sheed would decide to operate in the post (at least in the playoffs) more, we'd be getting a lot more high % shots.

I put this on Flip. Sheed relishes in putting on a clinic in the post, but he defers too often. Flip needs to call plays to utilize that weapon more.

I think Joe tried to address this issue through the draft with Maxiell, and that looks like a major success, but it's just not enough.

When jumpers stop falling, this team is dead in the water, especially since they can't stop dribble penetration.
^^This. If more than one starter is having problems connecting from the field (and right now it seems like it's at least 3 out of 5), this team comes apart like a sweater from Old Navy.

^^This. If more than one starter is having problems connecting from the field (and right now it seems like it's at least 3 out of 5), this team comes apart like a sweater from Old Navy.

That's been the case for this squad since the Rick Carlisle days (due to none of the starters really being good enough to guarantee you an efficient 20+ every night). It's also why scoring from the bench is especially important for their success. When Maxiell and Hayes fail to hit shots it puts more pressure on the starters to score. When neither the starters or bench are hitting shots games like last night occur. No one person is good enough to carry this team.

It would be interesting to see what the Pistons record is when both Maxiell and Hayes score in double digits. I'm guessing very good.

The success of this team over the next few months is all on the shoulders of Rodney Stuckey. If he's legit and can become a consistent scoring threat that will help this team immeasurably. He's much better than I thought.

I'd also like to see Hermann play a little more of the 3 position instead of the 4 like he did last night. Flip needs to use his 6'9" frame and offensive perimeter skills to create mismatches.

I agree on using Herrmann more at the 3, but using him at the 4 on Dirk last night was actually a pretty smart move. Why he didn't stick with it, I'm really not sure, but I wouldn't have even thought of that in the first place.

I agree on using Herrmann more at the 3, but using him at the 4 on Dirk last night was actually a pretty smart move. Why he didn't stick with it, I'm really not sure, but I wouldn't have even thought of that in the first place.

he was a liability on the offensive end for one thing. he wasn't a big part of the near comeback. and speaking of the mavericks, they did manage to get about a half away from winning a championship with no inside presence before they totally melted down, so yes it is possible.

Hermmann isn't a good rebounder is he? It seems like with him at the 4 you'd be like when Corliss was there (in terms of rebounding). Without Ben that makes it even more apparent.

he was a liability on the offensive end for one thing. he wasn't a big part of the near comeback. and speaking of the mavericks, they did manage to get about a half away from winning a championship with no inside presence before they totally melted down, so yes it is possible.


We're in the East. It's more than possible.

I think the real question is, how much better would we be if we actually had an inside offensive presence???

Somebody brought it up a few days ago, I think P.J. Brown would be perfect as a "quick-fix" for our interior problems...

I dont remember in detail, but while we weren't some dynamo post team when we won the title, I seem to remember an inside-out offensive system. I mean it wasn't all jumpshooting. The ball would go inside, mostly because LB was crazy about shifting the ball all across the court trying to break down defenses.

...the hell?

did someone watch a different 2004 team than I did? Are we crediting Corliss Williamson, who was invisible in the playoffs, as an inside game?

Nevermind that this wasn't a question to begin with. The Knicks of the 70's were jumpshot addicts and they won 2 titles.

its not a question of "can A team" jumpshoot to a championship, its a question of "can this team" do it. i sincerely doubt it. to do so, flip would have to manage our depth just right. we'd relly have to get our d going. we'd also need to be fresh deep into the playoffs.

i just really hope this team doesnt lose to boston. any team but boston. i would rather drop out to some shit kicking 8th seed than lose to boston... unless that 8th seed was miami.

...the hell?

did someone watch a different 2004 team than I did? Are we crediting Corliss Williamson, who was invisible in the playoffs, as an inside game?

Nevermind that this wasn't a question to begin with. The Knicks of the 70's were jumpshot addicts and they won 2 titles.


I agree, Scoreless Williamson was a tool in '04, and Okur wasn't much of anything at that time either, and even now Memo is more of a jump shooter than post presence. The only value we had on that bench was Hunter & James for defensive purposes, and Elden Campbell so he could hack the big guy...


Darko was a piece of shit then, and he's still a piece of shit now.

We're in the East. It's more than possible.

I think the real question is, how much better would we be if we actually had an inside offensive presence???

Somebody brought it up a few days ago, I think P.J. Brown would be perfect as a "quick-fix" for our interior problems...

I've never been impressed by PJ Brown. I'd rather have Sheed, Dice, and Maxiell.

Tayshaun and Max can both play down low but they're not great finishers, especially when defensed.

I agree, Scoreless Williamson was a tool in '04, and Okur wasn't much of anything at that time either, and even now Memo is more of a jump shooter than post presence. The only value we had on that bench was Hunter & James for defensive purposes, and Elden Campbell so he could hack the big guy...


Darko was a piece of shit then, and he's still a piece of shit now.

according to many pistons' fans we were some sort of dominant inside team back then, lol. especially considering Ben Wallace gave us like 6 pts a game and, back then, we were still all griping about Sheed not staying on the low block. and oh yeah, our main scorer was Rip Hamilton who was and is a jump shooter.

bullshit. larry brown would circumcize every member of our team if we played the faggoty way we do now. what was the #1 rule of "playing the right way"? getting high % shots at the basket. this

while it is true corliss wasnt a huge post factor in the playoffs, he did get some pt. but we also had ben who was a factor in the paint (its true, though maybe unpopular) sheed and prince played in the paint more. chauncy penetrated more. we conceded turning the ball over so that we could get it inside.

now? we lead the league in fewest turnovers every year. but who gives a shit? having fewest int's in football doesnt mean shit if you throw joey harrington checkdowns every throw.

flip is dumb as shit. he designs a system that relies on jumpshots. players shoot best when they have fresh legs. flip insists on wearing his key players out by march.

its another embarrassing exit from the playoffs this year. flip playing the bench in december was an aberation, he'll probably go out of his way to not play the bench goign forward just to make up for it.

when was Ben Wallace ever a factor in the paint? we are talking offense, right? you mean back in 03-04 when he was shooting 42% FG and averaging 9 ppg?

i think Flip Saunders is an average coach. but i don't agree with him getting most of the criticism for the team's recent playoff futility. the players have to be held accountable, and I think much of it starts with Chauncey. he's been holding the ball longer than I remember and he's been making lots of crappy decisions. more than i seem to remember and i don't think he gets enough blame.

there are plenty of other flaws on this team (like most other teams), but i think it's an easy out to say Flip is the cause of everything.

and 9 pts isnt bad out of your center. especially on that team. hell, mcdyess is only getting us 10.1 ppg. i bet ben had more dunks in 04 than anyone on our team will have this year.

i would love for someone to beable to dig up our points in the paint historicals for the last 5 years, it would probably be hilarious. i tried 82games but i dont think that chart history.

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nba/dunk-o-meter/yearly

maxiell is leading us with 46 dunks this year so far. thats a little better than 1 a game.

cool page, worth checking out. my boy bynum at #2 is pretty cool. yao at #7 is shocking.

i bet ben had more dunks in 04 than anyone on our team will have this year.
"come on, now"

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9816/maxiellic9.jpg

edit: ah, you beat me to it, bdiddy.

btw, where exactly is the "paint" measured when talking about points in the paint? Is it just the circle where they measure charging? Or is it a larger fixed radius with the basket being the center? Or is it the "lane" below the FT line, bordered by where the rebounders line up for FTs?

We shoot plenty of jumpers from that lane. Do those count as points in the paint?