Has Joe redeemed himself?

Yes, Darko was a horrible fit on this team and has shown, even in different settings, that while he has talent he's not a great player in this league and certainly not worthy of the pick he was in the draft he was.

However, 5 years from now could we see a starting 5 of Stuckey, Afflalo, Prince, Amir and Max? All Dumars picks?

Well, we may not see that as the starting 5 for a few different reasons, and it would be nice if we were able to get something either in trade later or with cap relief from our current starters to add others pieces that would start, but the bottom line is Dumars has found a groove. I think you could easily argue that since that draft (which was bad top to bottom) Dumars has made excellent picks. Paulding, Blalock and Acker aren't around, but considering where they were chosen they were decent shots, and the other picks have been stellar, ESPECIALLY considering the draft position.

i would rate joe about an A to an A+ as a drafter.

i dont fault him at all for buying into the euro hype. everyone did. the fact that he made those mistakes and learned from them only furthers him, in my eyes.

off the top of my head...

i would rate all his other picks somewhere between good to amazing, other than cleaves, darko, and delfino.

looking at all the other teams and GM's in our division, with joes ability to grab guys at the bottom of the draft we should be kicking ass for about 5 years after joe retires. assuming his rain doesnt hemorage like it did shortly after he signed mcdyess.

If he can pull rotation guys out of 3 of the next 5 drafts we'll be set for quite some time. Seriously, if he can get a guard, a forward, and a PF/C, each capable of 6-18 solid minutes in any given game, I don't see any reason to believe this team won't be in the playoffs for the next 15 years.

i would rate all his other picks somewhere between good to amazing, other than cleaves, darko, and delfino.




White?

Here's a list of Dumars draft picks:

2000: Mateen Cleaves (14), Brian Cardinal (44)
2001: Rodney White (9), Mehmet Okur (38)
2002: Tayshaun Prince (22)
2003: Darko Milicic (2), Carlos Delfino (25), Andreas Glyniadakis (58)
2004: Rickey Paulding (54)
2005: Jason Maxiell (26), Amir Johnson (56), Alex Acker (60)
2006: Cheikh Samb (51), Will Blalock (60)
2007: Rodney Stuckey (15), Arron Afflalo (27), Sammy Mejia (57)

I'd give Dumars a C+. This year's draft improved his grade (getting two rotation players on a championship level team was huge), but he still has to be punished SEVERELY for the Darko pick. Put Chris Bosh (or Carmelo Anthony or Dwyane Wade) on this team and how many championships would the Pistons have won. That's one of the worst draft choices in NBA history. Add that to the fact that Cleaves and White are out of the league, and you can't give Dumars a great grade, even though he's much improved on the last 3 years.

Overall Joe get a B+ for drafting and here's why:

2000

#14 Cleeves - Played some in the NBA but disappointing - D+
#44 Cardinal - Solid NBA player - B+

2001

#9 White - Very disappointing player that did nothing - D
#38 Okur - A great pick for the 2nd rd. - A

2002

#23 Prince - As good a player as you could expect at 23 - A+

2003

#2 Milicic - A solid but disapppointing starting quality NBA player - B-
#25 Delfino - Good bench player but little else - B
#58 Glyndakis - Played a few NBA games and still hangs around - C

2004

#54 Paulding - Never played in the NBA but not a bad try at 54 - C-

2005

#26 Maxiell - Took a while to come around but is a quality player - A-
#56 Johnson - Could end up being a star - A
#60 Acker - INC.

2006

#60 Blalock - Good enough to make other teams even if briefly - C

2007

#15 Stuckey - INC.
#27 Afflalo - INC.
#57 Mejia - INC.

joe easily makes better 2nd round picks than first round picks.

Short answer:Yes, imo.

I was thinking that his drafting has not been that good, but when the roster is stocked full all the way to 12, he's done something right.

When a number 2 draft choice completely washes out and gets traded away for pennies on the dollar, that's an F.

I wouldn't call Stuckey "pennies on the dollar." He's certainly more promising than Darko.

Dumars has done so many great things, it's silly to nit-pick over the one he blew.

Yeah, another GM might have picked Wade or Melo. Not likely, given Darko's pre-draft hype, but maybe.

Another GM would almost certainly not have assembled a championship roster in 2004, either. Another GM would have passed on Prince, Afflalo, Maxiell and Stuckey, all guys who were drafted with little fanfare.

Dumars has done so many great things, it's silly to nit-pick over the one he blew.


I agree. Still, every time a comment like a B- "grade" for the Darko pick gets a free pass, an angel loses its wings. For the love of god, someone had to step up.

How do you distinguish "did you draft a good player" from "did you properly develop a good player you drafted"?

FWIW, I came up with a GPA scale for draft picks once. It's not perfect, by any stretch, but it gives sort of a flavor of what I see reasonable expecations as being:

4.0: If they every make any All-* team
3.0: If they're a good starter or SMOY sort
2.0: If they starters or are -the- 6th man
1.0: If they were rotation players for awhile
0.0: If they played NBA minutes for 2+ seasons
-1.0: If they fucked out after 1 season or less
For non-lottery 1st rounders, expectations are less -- add 1.0.
For 2nd rounders, expectations are even less -- add 2.0.

Applying to Dumars picks where I think it's safe to assign a grade:

Cleaves: 0.0 <sigh>
Cardinal: 3.0 (The Custodian had some good rotation seasons elsewhere)
White: 1.0 (tempting to call him a total bust, but was a rotation player for a couple years in Denver)
Okur: 6.0 (All-Star)
Prince: 5.0 (All-D)
Milicic: 1.0 (All-fuckup, isn't a consistent starter, fuck him)
Delfino: 2.0 (might've gone higher if not for his knee injury early on, but if not for his pre-NBA injury history, he would've likely been a lotto pick)
Paulding: 1.0 (doubtful he finds his way to the NBA at this point, but who knows)
Maxiell: 3.0 (could get higher depending on baby consumption)

22/9 = 2.4 GPA -- call it a C+

But half his draft picks get an "incomplete", and most of them are doozies. Even if none of them -ever- amount to anything more than what they are today, the worst Dumars would get is about a C on my scale.

It seems he is either very bad (Darko, Cleaves, White, etc) or very good (Prince, Okur, Max, the rooks so far). Overall, he has done well with the picks he has had. Many GMs would have blown the Darko pick AND passed on Prince, Max, Okur, etc.

I agree. Still, every time a comment like a B- "grade" for the Darko pick gets a free pass, an angel loses its wings. For the love of god, someone had to step up.

When I gave the Darko drafting a B-, I factored in everything and feel that it's a very appropriate grade. You have to factor in how much hype there was when he was drafted, the fact that he was put on a team that was very deep and didn't get to play and develop at a normal pace. If he was drafted by a crap team , he would have played immediately. Add to this that he is a starter or at least a rotation player, that he is 21 and has several years yet to play, that he does have the skills if not the mindset or heart, and that the Pistons got cap relief and a #15 pick in a deep draft, I still stand by my grade of B-. It's a fair assessment as there are a ton of top 5 picks that never made it past a couple pf NBA seasons.

And I can't believe that I just spent that much effort defending the retard. Oh well, at least Joe is learning how to draft better.

Great posts guys, nice thread.

Really good to see you back in the NBA forum, Jeth.

When I gave the Darko drafting a B-, I factored in everything and feel that it's a very appropriate grade. You have to factor in how much hype there was when he was drafted, the fact that he was put on a team that was very deep and didn't get to play and develop at a normal pace. If he was drafted by a crap team , he would have played immediately. Add to this that he is a starter or at least a rotation player, that he is 21 and has several years yet to play, that he does have the skills if not the mindset or heart, and that the Pistons got cap relief and a #15 pick in a deep draft, I still stand by my grade of B-. It's a fair assessment as there are a ton of top 5 picks that never made it past a couple pf NBA seasons.

And I can't believe that I just spent that much effort defending the retard. Oh well, at least Joe is learning how to draft better.

I'm sorry, but that's like saying the Sam Bowie pick was a B-, while ignoring that the Blazers passed Michael Jordan. Had Dumars not blown that pick, I think the Pistons would have at least one more championship by now. And it's only going to get worse as time goes by (wouldn't you like to have Anthony, Bosh, or Wade anchoring the Pistons future). The Darko pick was an F.

However, I thought it was vital that Dumars drafted two rotation players in last years draft, and he did. We've got Stuckey and Afflalo on the books for approximately $13.8 million combined over the next 4 years. That gives the Pistons a lot of flexibility going forward.

Mxy, giving Okur a 6 probably isn't fair. You dont give someone a 5 if they manage to get a 102% for a class. but other than that, that's a pretty accurate grading system.

I give the Darko pick an F, but what Joe tried to do to with the Darko picks is what matters now. It's ironic how clearing Cap space for Ben didin't work, but it turned out to be better anyways. Basically the darko pick= stuckey pick. Right now, that pick is looking to be real good and on mxy's scale a 2-3 would sound right.

Darko and Rodney White were horrible picks. I'm with the C+ crowd.

The last 3 years have been significantly better.

Some of you need to stop eating the Dumars Is God cornbread and admit he made some huge errors, particularly with Darko.

But if you want to look at the Darko pick as the Stuckey pick, you have to look at it as Stuckey was drafted 2nd overall against Wade, Anthony, Bosh, and then didn't play for 4-5 years (however long its been, ugh). You'd have to factor in all the production lost over the years and the fact that anyone in their right mind would take one of those three over Stuckey. I love the guy, he fits our team perfectly, but the other 3 are all-stars and we could have had any of them. You can't just say "Darko turned into a great pick in the end" because while Stuckey is a great pick, he doesn't live up to "what could have been"

Ion know do you think we could've beat those 04 Lakers with Bosh instead of Sheed? No doubt we would easily be in a much better situation with MElo or Bosh right now but do you think we wouldve beat the 04 lakers?

A front court of Ben/Bosh/Okur would have looked fucking nice for the 05 06 years and maybe we wouldve beat the Spurs but no one matches up better to Duncan than Sheed. Maybe we wouldve kicked Miami's ass and raped the MAvs. Maybe we'd be on a pace to win 70.

I seriously wonder what this team would be like if we drafted Bosh or Melo.

Not that many people seem to be mad at the Fino pick. I didnt really pay attention to that pick because I was pretty mad at the Darko pick myself, but we could have had Barbosa or Jho with that pick...

^ I don't think we could've beaten the '04 Lakers with Bosh. Remember, Bosh didn't come in and produce immediately like he has been the last 2-3 years.

Whereas LeBron, Carmelo, and (to a lesser extent) Wade all came in immediately and made a significant impact.

If we're talking strictly that championship year here, then we are not better with 'Melo either imo. Sure, we would've gotten more production from the 3 spot offensively, but does 'Melo chase down Reggie Miller and block him from behind?

Does he force Kobe into all those bad shots? I don't think so.

I didn't expect dumars to be looking at Wade and you can obviously take lebron out of that list.

melo and tay splitting time at the 3 would've been very interesting but maybe the development of melo would have been hindered.

Im very happy with the 04 ring because we proved a shitload of people wrong, starpower wont get you shit, gotta play like a team and Sheed was a big factor to it.

I DO think we'd be in a better situation if we had Bosh/Melo for the 04-05 season and against the Spurs in the Finals.

I'm sorry, but that's like saying the Sam Bowie pick was a B-, while ignoring that the Blazers passed Michael Jordan. Had Dumars not blown that pick, I think the Pistons would have at least one more championship by now. And it's only going to get worse as time goes by (wouldn't you like to have Anthony, Bosh, or Wade anchoring the Pistons future). The Darko pick was an F.

However, I thought it was vital that Dumars drafted two rotation players in last years draft, and he did. We've got Stuckey and Afflalo on the books for approximately $13.8 million combined over the next 4 years. That gives the Pistons a lot of flexibility going forward.

I understand your point but disagree with it. Sam Bowie was a horrible pick COMPARED to Jordan but it wasn't a horrible pick based on the guys size and skill. Bowie was a very good player and if he hadn't have had the knee troubles might have had an excellent and even Hall of Fame career. I liken him to Ralph Sampson, another guy who's career ended far too early. You have to look at the pick on it's own merits and not the results some 20 years later. GMs don't have that luxury when making the picks.

As for Darko, although it wasn't a great pick and Joe definitely could have done better, Darko IS an NBA player and a solid one at that. He's not a star or might not even be a starter on most teams but he is a legit NBA player and is still young with some upside ( although that is quickly fleeting). There are many top 5 picks that washed out of the NBA in a season or two. They are F's. Darko looks to have a long and solid career and that would merit him at least a C. Factor in the guys skills (that he never seems to use) and potential plus the fact fact that Joe isn't a mind reader and I still give the pick a B-. Most GMs would have done the same as Joe and I can't lay that much blame on him. It wasn't that horrible of a pick.

If we're talking strictly that championship year here, then we are not better with 'Melo either imo. Sure, we would've gotten more production from the 3 spot offensively, but does 'Melo chase down Reggie Miller and block him from behind?

Does he force Kobe into all those bad shots? I don't think so.

Does have the size melo has? Melo can post up on smaller 2/3 players jst like tay can. Can tayshaun drop 25 a game? Well he probably could if he had that killer instinct. I think Melo provides alot of good matchups too. Against the Spurs, who would Bowen guard? Rip or melo? Well the other one would just simply stomp over Manu. We'd have a go to guy in Melo everytime our offense isn't clicking.

Does have the size melo has? Melo can post up on smaller 2/3 players jst like tay can. Can tayshaun drop 25 a game? Well he probably could if he had that killer instinct. I think Melo provides alot of good matchups too. Against the Spurs, who would Bowen guard? Rip or melo? Well the other one would just simply stomp over Manu. We'd have a go to guy in Melo everytime our offense isn't clicking.

Great points. The Pistons' offense got extremely stagnant in the Spurs in that series, especially games 1 and 2.

In game 1 they got off to a quick 16-4 lead I think it was on SA and if they held on, that would've been a huge game (reflecting back on it). Alas, they ended up tanking in that game and SA won easily.

Cross, if we're talking about beating the '04 Lakers with a guy like 'Melo, I got to thinking: MAYBE the Lakers were just so dysfunctional that year it wouldn't have mattered who we had, be it 'Melo or Tayshaun.

If they ran into a Pistons team that were operating as a TEAM it would be an inevitable upset.

Remember, Phil Jackson thought Karl Malone was their best player in the playoffs and the "glue" that kept the team together. He got hurt in game 2 (I think) and played only a few minutes in game 3 (not sure on what games he missed).

Just something to think about.

That was the problem and thats why we needed someone like Melo. However I still love tay and his defense and his constant reggie miller like blocks to everyone. That pick right there was genius.

it'd be really awkward to see Melo in a pistons jersey

it'd be really awkward to see Melo in a pistons jersey

As much as I hate Darko's lazy ass, I'll go as far as saying that I'm still pleased that we didn't draft Melo.

I don't think he was even an option though, if it wasn't Dorko, it was going to be Bosh, IMO.

The only flaw with my "maybe the Lakers were just too dysfunctional" arguement is the fact they played and beat SA that year.

So I brought up Karl Malone. :P

Here's something else I thought about: if the Pistons drafted Bosh, would the Raptors end up selecting Darko? If the Pistons drafted Carmelo, would the Nuggets end up selecting Darko?

lol

Cross, if we're talking about beating the '04 Lakers with a guy like 'Melo, I got to thinking: MAYBE the Lakers were just so dysfunctional that year it wouldn't have mattered who we had, be it 'Melo or Tayshaun.

If they ran into a Pistons team that were operating as a TEAM it would be an inevitable upset.

Just something I thought about.

thats what most people wonder, and its a really interesting point.

however with melo, whos in the game for the final minute vs the pacers? Tayshaun was so crucial in leading this team through the playoffs.

After winning Game Four in Milwaukee, Prince took over The Palace during Game Five, scoring a career playoff-high 24 points, and adding nine rebounds, eight assists and two steals as the Pistons clinched the series. Sure we wouldve blown by the Bucks but still.

Sheed was such an inside presence during the playoff run too. Averaged 3.3blocks a game, and was crucial in defending the best power forwards at that time like jermaine or kmart.

however with melo, whos in the game for the final minute vs the pacers? Tayshaun was so crucial in leading this team through the playoffs.
Sure we wouldve blown by the Bucks but still.


yep, that was one of my initial points.

Tayshaun's block on Reggie is considered (perhaps it's an exaggeration though) the play that won them the championship.

Of course if Reggie made that layup it would've been tied and sent the game to OT, not win it for Indy. One could argue though that the late run Indy made to put them in position to tie it would've been enough to carry them to the win and 2-0 series lead.

no it isnt an exaggeration its fairly accurate. I don't think we couldve taken any more of those pacers. Game 3 put us in the right mindset while it fucked up the pacers. a 2-0 series lead for those pacers wouldve been hard to come back onto. but who the fuck knows and cares?

Hard to disagree there my man.

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/pistons_2004.jpg

Who says we wouldn't have still made the deal for sheed if we'd drafted Bosh? Bosh would have been producing about as much as Darko that year, so I think we'd still make the trade no matter which guy we had.

but who the fuck knows and cares?

i give joe some leeway for white, cleaves, and darko.

cleaves was an obvious homer pick and also joe's first. not exactly a great draft, either.

white was a near consensus #1 who fell into our lap. he was a risk/reward situation that it was worth taking him.

ive always thought it wasnt that darko was a bad pick, it was that everything afterwards was mishandled. rushing him to america rather than giving him another year in europe (couldnt have played any less there), hiring a coach that didnt want him, making him change his style of play, burrying him on the bench. it goes on and on. ive seen him play well for memphis several times this year. he still could be ok.

that said, he should have took carmelo in hindsight. the guy LB wanted, could have made tay a super sub. we never would have had those scoring draughts that plagued us. what could LB have done for his defense, too?

oh well. after that its been pretty good. i never have any expectations for the 2nd round. i think guys like sheldon meija are the norm, and not the exception. hes had some real good picks though. keep in mind, we simply havent had a room to add a lot of guys with roles to this team over the last 4 years or so. you cant expect every pick to pan out, for simply numbers reasons.

I curious to see if b-diddy will still be defending Darko 5-10 years from now.

I explicitly avoid "long-term longevity" and "woulda shoulda coulda" in my "did a GM draft well" equation. I just look at the top performance of the players drafted relative to their draft position. I think in the modern draft, beyond:

1-6 for a lottery first
7-9 for a non-lottery first, and
10-12 for 2nd round pick

it gets far far too fuzzy. There's things I have a hard time factoring in my draft GPA like:

- drafting for attendance (what Charlotte did with the North Carolina picks, what JD may have done with Cleaves)
- whether the ranges should be maybe 7-10 and 11-15 with the enhanced rosters these days
- how to split between the rookie scale salary era and before, which have very different dynamics (was Dominique a success or failure for Utah?)
- does "upper half of second round" versus "lower half of second round" deserve more/less credit, and am I not granular enough?
- do I care about 3rd round and older picks from the old-school era (mostly disposable, but 2 starters on our 1990 Finals team, Laimbeer and Buddha, were 3rd rounders).