Question -
(this may deserve its own thread at some point)
With all the speculation by the Killa (douche) that Martz is gone, who are realistic candidates for OC next season.
Key on the word realistic. We can run down the list of possibilities, but let's try to also give some notes on whether there would be any mutual interest and how they would fit the team - given our players and Marinelli.

IBGMCC

IBGMCC

Hey, what about...

Miami has a coach the might be available, don't they? Nice pick-up, Glenn.

I was listening to the radio yesterday, I don't remember which station or who was on, but they were talking about the whole "get rid of Martz" thing as well. The general thought was to bring in a guy that fits what Marinelli has in mind, to pound the ball first. I kind of like the idea. When we actually focused on the running game, we ran the ball well and could work the pass off the run. When we don't pay attention to the running game, teams just stack against the pass and we have a hard time. Martz loves to pass, no matter what RM tells him he's going to pass the ball a million times a game. Why not get a OC that fits what the HC has in mind? And Glenn, if CC is available, count me on the bandwagon.

Martz is about the only legit thing about this franchise.

Last I checked, offense wasn't really the big problem with this team, but wait, Rod's SON IN LAW is the DC, you know, the guy that has never even been a DC before?

Will he lose his job, too?

Methinks not.

Could the Lions have run the ball more? Sure, but having Tatum Bell as your #1 back to start the season does present it's challenges, as does having your defense allow the other team to score at will, which necessitates that you abandon the run sooner than you would like to.

Getting out of Detroit is probably the best thing for Martz's career, actually.

I think the only reason he goes, if he does go, is because he refuses to listen to Rod. He's doing that whole ego powerstruggle thing and it causes problems. He may bring in a solid offense, but if he's causing problems and locker-room or managerial rifts, that's a serious issue.

Maybe he's pissed becuse the coach's son in law is getting a free pass?

Marinelli should have NEVER been allowed to hire a family member.

But maybe if the defense was given all the weapons the offense gets, they'd do better as well. If we'd spent so many high picks grabbing defensive guys, maybe they'd play up to par like the offense. And we have to remember that the offense is good in spurts. Some games they will come out and dominate, other games they will come out and look like shit and won't be able to stay on the field. Then the defense gets no rest and they look terrible. A big part of the defensive problem is that our secondary needs an upgrade badly.

Just trying to play a little devil's advocate, get some conversation going on this. I'm entirely not sold on the offense or the defense. Both have annoyed me this year on many occasions.

Martz is about the only legit thing about this franchise.

Last I checked, offense wasn't really the big problem with this team, but wait, Rod's SON IN LAW is the DC, you know, the guy that has never even been a DC before?

Will he lose his job, too?

Methinks not.

Could the Lions have run the ball more? Sure, but having Tatum Bell as your #1 back to start the season does present it's challenges, as does having your defense allow the other team to score at will, which necessitates that you abandon the run sooner than you would like to.

Getting out of Detroit is probably the best thing for Martz's career, actually.
I haven't been real impressed with Martz at all here (and I was a big fan of bringing him here too). I don't like his play selection at all. Yeah, missing KJ effects your playcalling, but you can't tell me Bell is a huge dropoff. Bell is a good runner, he just doesn't catch the ball well or block as well. That limits you some, but not enough to ruin the offense. We also have TJ as well. Overall, I'd say we are one of the deapest teams at RB. Also, even when KJ was back, we had games with 6 rushing attempts in a game (total). That is terrible. You can't win ball games that way. I'm not saying he is the direct cause of losses or anything, but I don't think we had a huge skid because of the defense. They had a couple bad games, but I think they've played pretty well considering we have 1 ok DE, 2 good DT's, 1 good LB, 1 ok CB and a bunch of misfits. I expected a lot more games like the Philly one for our defense.

Maybe it's a clash with Rod making Martz throw happy. If that's the case, it's no excuse. He shouldn't be doing something to spite Rod, he should be trying to win.

Everyone will see through a Martz firing as just that... a fall guy.

I'm hoping for fall 'guys'. I don't harp on the Fire Millen thing every week, but then it hits you like a ton of bricks...He SUCKS!. Which of these doesn't belong? ...Dumars, DD, Millen? How can we continue with this worthless blank running the team?

Fire Millen, Marinelli, Martz too. Clean house the way Tuna will in Miami.

The bigger problem is still Millen, no matter how bad the offense has been at times. If we had properly drafted a decent OL and not wasted picks on bad WR's and QB's there would have been some continuity long before Martz got here. A guy like CJ would simply be joining an offense instead of being thrown in there with new QB's, different RB's a revamped OL, etc.

Fire Millen, Fire Martz, give Marinelli at least one more season with a good GM and a more fitting OC and we'll see where it goes from there.

Maybe give Cowher a chance as GM? Or Tuna? I'd be willing to bet they'd be much better than Millen!

Fire Millen, Fire Martz, give Marinelli at least one more season with a good GM and a more fitting OC and we'll see where it goes from there.

The problem is that firing Millen probably means firing Rod too. Most GM's like to clean house entirely and bring in their own guys.

The problem is that firing Millen probably means firing Rod too. Most GM's like to clean house entirely and bring in their own guys.

If thats what it takes, then so be it. Rod might not get his full shot at being a head coach, but he got caught up in a mess that is the Lions.

Anybody who takes this job should have known how it was going to end.

He looks so bad trying to walk up and down the sidelines, maybe he was just getting one last paycheck and now he can go home and sit in the Lay-Z-Boy.

If they have to let Rod go to get a better GM, I'm ok with that. I like him, I love his attitude, I think he's been great for this program and he'd do well given more talent, but a new GM is worth that.

Rod = Collateral damage

Precisely. You never know. The next GM may come in and think Marinelli is better than the other options that are out there for next season. I like the idea of bringing in Cowher and letting him run the show, then if he wants to coach he can coach and get all his own players, and if he wants to just sit back and run management that's fine as well.

You're dreaming, Zekyl.

Also, Jethro, if you think I took too much liberty with the thread title, give me a different one.

Cowher negotiations ???

Ford: Bill how bout?

Bill: NO!

Ford: Ok, how bout?

Bill: NO!

Actually it wouldn't get to negotiations. Cowher's agent would call Bill.

Agent: Hey, Bill we got a call from the Lions.

Bill: HA HA HA HA HA HA

You're dreaming, Zekyl.
I know. Cowher would never try to fix this shithole. He's only coming back to something that would drive him out of the business or turn him insane. I just want Millen gone so badly. :emo kid:

Going from the Steelers organIzation to the Lions organIzation is like going from (blank) to (blank)

(complete the phrase)

Cowher's agent wouldn't call Bill. He'd be the one saying no!

Going from the Steelers organIzation to the Lions organIzation is like going from...

(complete the phrase)
Well, think of Trading Places without the dream ending.

Penthouse to the shithouse

I was happy when the Lions got Martz, but it shows why I'm a typical Lion fan (even come from a season ticket owning family). Getting Martz and using high draft picks on receivers are just more examples supporting the theory that Ford only cares about filling the stadium and not building a winner. I think I read it in a Drew Sharp column that Fontes told Ford that if he got the permanent coaching job he would put in an offense that would be exciting to watch.

With wonderful 20-20 hindsight I now believe that it was not only a flawed move to get Martz but that getting Martz was just another in a long line of Lion smokescreens. With a good D, an OK ball-controling O and smart play, a less talented team has a better chance of contending every week. But once again I think the Lions went for flash instead of depth in their drafts and hoped that a Martz offense would cover up that lack of depth. And, just like the cornbread-eating Lions fan lapdog that I was, I thought it was a good way to go.

I agree with many sentiments here.
I think Rod has shown positive signs, and I think it's way too early to pass much judgment on Barry. Yes, they allowed 31+ on 6 different occasions, and 51+ twice. That's horrible. They also dominated the Bears and Broncos in consecutive weeks.
It was an inconsistent season defensively, but I agree with the point that was made about weapons. We have 4-7 players starting that actually deserve to start in this league. The rest would make nice "depth" players on a playoff team. The team has drafted offense first in 7 of the last 8 drafts, and three of those followed up with offense again in their 2nd pick.
But the drafts have been better since Rod came along. Sims, Bullocks and Alexander are nice pieces for building a defense. CJ will be a good WR. Scott, Ramirez, Cannon and Davis were decent value picks. Stanton was a huge reach, but I attribute that pick to Martz. You can potentially do the same with CJ, but that's hard to say. FA acquisitions have been better. DeWayne White was a nice choice, and when completely healthy he showed that. Martz made a nice call getting McDonald for this offense.

There's too much faith in Kitna, especially considering the OL he has to work with. Hard to expect much out of the RB's either. Had Martz made a pitch for OL instead of electric, we may have been better off. Could we have done more with Joe Thomas and Lamaar Woodley and Ryan Kalil instead of CJ, Stanton and Alama-Francis? Thomas and Kalil both started and did well. Imagine an OL of:
LT: Joe Thomas
LG: Ryan Kalil
C: Dominic Raiola
RG: Damien Woody
RT: Jeff Backus
It's impossible to say for sure, but I would imagine that line opens bigger, better holes for the running game and protects Kitna much better. So we don't have CJ, well, as much as I like him he was 4th on the team in receptions. I actually think the offense would have been better without him, IF it meant we had the O-Linemen instead. But that's not how Martz rolls.

Which is why I say it's time to let him go and draft only OL for offense, and defense with every other pick. It's a proven formula for success in the NFL. I would have thought Millen was down with that.

Consider this, since Backus was taken in the 1st round - only ONE OL has been taken by the Lions prior to the 7th round, and that was Jonathon Scott.

Fire Millen.

The title is fair, Glenn. Good looking out.

If thats what it takes, then so be it. Rod might not get his full shot at being a head coach, but he got caught up in a mess that is the Lions.

I agree. I was just pointing out to everyone that I've never seen a new GM retain a coach.

And the only reason we took Scott was because he was a projected 2nd rounder that fell all the way to the 5th. We had to take him.

I'm not saying we have to take O-Line in the 1st round, but somewhere 2-4 would be nice to develop some guys. A better O-line makes the whole team better. It opens up the run game, it gives the QB more time in the pass game, and it keeps the offense on the field longer, giving the defense more rest.

Jeth, do you really think Martz wanted Stanton?

I'm just putting 1+1 here, but I doubt that he thought he'd be around long enough to benefit from that pick, and I also doubt that he has/had the sway to dictate a 2nd round pick.

I remember reading that Martz was really hard on Stanton before the injury, and I always interpreted that to (at least partially) mean that he really wasn't pleased with the kid being here in the first place. I know that is a pretty big leap, but that's how I saw it.

From the things I read that's what Martz does with guys he likes. He rips them apart and puts them back together just the way he wants it.

I compare this to what Tiger Woods has done with his swing. Twice he has "reconstructed" his swing to improve it. I think Martz saw something he liked in Stanton and wanted to make him his own.

I thought Martz's MO was more finding undrafted or very low round guys, but I'm merely speculating here anyways, so who knows.

He takes what he can get and molds it. He finds a guy with qualities he really likes, usually hard workers that are willing to do whatever it takes, and he molds them. They usually have some big flaws that can be ironed out, like bad throwing motion or poor decision making. The two big names everyone thinks of were Bulger and Warner, but he's done it with other QBs as well (Trent Green, pre-injury for the Rams). He probably saw that Stanton was a hard-nosed guy that could be great if he figured a few things out. One of those guys that has all the tools but doesn't really understand how to put it all together. It's exactly what Martz goes for. And Jethro's right about how he's harder on guys he likes. If he doesn't like you, he doesn't waste his time on you. Just look at Orlovsky. He's got the guy as the 3rd QB on the charts and you never hear about him fixing thins in Dan's game. He's never liked him much.

Did anyone report yet that Martz, allegedly, will be fired after tomorrows game and will then take over as OC for the 49ers?
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/hashmarks/0-4-300/Report--Martz-out-in-Detroit.html

I don't want him to go if he is going to be the only piece that falls. Thats for sure.

The Times also reported that Lions receiver Kippy Brown will replace Martz as offensive coordinator.
First, I think they meant receivers coach. Second, really? I don't really know much about the guy, but seriously?

Yippy for Kippy!!

Sweet, another reason to post this:

nSz16ngdsG0

If Martz leaves does Furrey leave? I kinda like him. He's a hard worker and the such.

I think Furrey got a new contract last year. I'm at a point where I don't care who leaves/stays.

Sound familiar?


LIONS TICKER: If Martz is a marked man, should he be the only one?

December 31, 2007

Well, after Sunday's display at Green Bay -- and if the reports are true -- you could see where the Lions would want to fire their offensive coordinator, right?

It's a start.

True, mysterious Mike Martz's settle-for-field-goals offense didn't perform up to expectations -- stats-wise, it was middle of the pack in the NFL -- and his playcalling bewildered everybody at times.

Well, apparently everybody except opposing defenses.

But before it's all pinned on Martz, how about some accountability for Joe Barry, the defensive coordinator and Rod Marinelli's son-in-law?

Barry's defense gave up a league-worst 27.8 points and 377.6 yards a game -- worse than even the Miami Dolphins. Including Sunday, the Lions gave up more than 30 points seven times, and two of those were 50-plus.

And while we're at it, don't forget special teams coach Stan Kwan. His kick-coverage teams got so unreliable late in the season, the Lions were afraid to kick off against Dallas, resorting to pooch kicks.

Hey, maybe that was Martz's plan: If you don't score, you don't have to kick off. Genius.

Overrated: Mike Martz

- Even I know that you have to get a running game going to protect your QB, let your D rest and help your O-line get some momentum going. Even I know that, if healthy, you might want to get the ball in the hands of maybe your most talented playmaker on the team, your number 2 receiver and a physical freak of nature who seems to not only catch well but also look to make a play once he gets it.

Underrated: Joe Barry


Sorry DE!

I'm not going to be a Joe Barry apologist, but hard to accomplish much when the offense keeps forcing the defense back onto the field.

The article above talks about the Lions defense being worse than the Dolphins. Ok, right, how about trading us Jason Taylor for Kalimba Edwards. Drastic, but I think we can safely say they have a better collection of talent to work with defensively.

Report: Lions fire offensive coordinator Martz

Posted: January 2, 2008
Sporting News staff report

The Detroit Lions fired offensive coordinator Mike Martz on Wednesday, according to several media outlets.

The Detroit News reports that the team is making "sweeping changes" in coach Rod Marinelli's staff, which includes job changes for several assistant coaches. Offensive line coach Jim Colletto is to be named offensive coordinator; Kippy Brown will be named assistant head coach and will coordinate the passing game and coach running backs; Shawn Jefferson will be the receivers coach.

Team officials would neither confirm nor deny the reports.

Colletto was the head coach at Purdue before Tiller, if memory serves

Meet your new "Passing Game Coordinator", Kippy Brown

http://www.detroitlions.com/photos/Brown_HS_Bio07.gif

Not what I pictured when I heard "Kippy"

Anybody else remember Kippy Strug?

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/96/pics/96aupdate2.jpg

I hope I never wake up in your head Glenn.

Why do you say that?

*twitch* *twitch*

I hope she isn't taking up a large portion of your head.

Anyway, I'm not surprised at all. I'm also not sure these two wizards are going to fix our offense, but I didn't like Martz' play calling, that is for sure.

Offensive line coach Jim Colletto is to be named offensive coordinator; Kippy Brown will be named assistant head coach and will coordinate the passing game and coach running backs; Shawn Jefferson will be the receivers coach.
This doesn't make a lot of sense to me BTW. So what is Colletto actually coordinating? The running game, but he doesn't coach them? Who calls the plays? This is very confusing.

The Killer doesn't know either:


Colletto will apparently be the "official'' coordinator while Brown has been promoted to assistant head coach. There has been no word yet on who will actually call the plays but since Colletto has the title, it will probably be his responsibility.

this whole thing:


is a joke

Killer was on 97.1 talking about it this morning. He seemed confused as hell with the situation. Can't say I blame him.

Sorry DE!

Yeah, I wouldn't mind that one back. In my defense (other than only being a fan with a fan's opinion at best) I was just a bit too hyped about all those turnovers we were getting then. And I may have been spiking my Honolulu blue Kool-Aid too.

next season is already shaping up to be a must see event. i suspect it will be spectacular. im also gonna go out on a limb and say it will be millens last.

wowzers.

The Lions are apparently not commenting on Martz being fired or not. Not sure what the story is. I heard SF wants him as OC.

I don't get it. If you ask any Lions fan what has been the biggest improvement over the last 2 seasons (the Rod Marinelli ERA), they would probably tell you the offense...

Why the fuck does Joe Barry have a job???

The Cover Two scheme needs to go...

I don't get it. If you ask any Lions fan what has been the biggest improvement over the last 2 seasons (the Rod Marinelli ERA), they would probably tell you the offense...


This is true. At the same time though a lot of people were frustrated with the offense, basically ever since the Arizona game.

The defense is complete ass though.

The offense produced, but not in the way it should have. We could have had a solid running game, and we did when we committed to it, but we would never make the commitment. Martz was too stubborn, that was his big flaw. If he learned to work with people, he'd be great, but that's part of the reason they got rid of him in St. Louis, iirc.

It's amazing how quickly a majority of message board posters' opinions can change when it comes to sports, lol. Especially here.

The Martz to San Fran thing has hit a snag apparently, as now the Niners are one of a hadful of teams hot after Cam Cameron for OC.

Martz has been talking to SMU about the HC job (as has June Jones).

Hey, who was the one that started the Martz to Michigan thing a while back?

Nevermind...

Martz will most likely find his way to the ATL, where the old man will use him as a "hired gun" to destroy the arm of Michael Vick as payback....that is, when he gets out of the slammer.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/JStarStar/iwofire.jpg

Karl, I hope you're not referring to me when you say changing opinions. I loved the idea of bringing in Martz way back when we did it, but he butted heads with the HC and he was too stubborn with his play calling. His welcome here slowly deteriorated from day one.

next season is already shaping up to be a must see event. i suspect it will be spectacular. im also gonna go out on a limb and say it will be millens last.

wowzers.


wanta explain?

sure. for the first time in the millen era, we had some lvl of success this year. 7-9 is no longer a bad team, its a middle of the road team. next year we will certainly be a 10+ game loser again, and it will feal like a major step backwards.

that meaningless 7th win that cost us draft spots may also cost millen his job.

One can only hope. He should have been out of here 3-4 years ago.

Some interesting comments by Martz:



January 13, Chicago Tribune: (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/cs-080112pompei,1,7766858.column?coll=cs-home-headlines) "[San Francisco head coach Mike Nolan]came in and cleaned this thing up personnel wise, and he did a marvelous job. Dick [Vermeil] had done the same thing in St. Louis. I came in right at the end of it and caught the benefits of it. That wasn't the situation in Detroit. They had to go through the process of cleaning the personnel up, and they're doing a good job of that. Next year I think they'll start to realize some of the benefits of it and be a better team." ... Martz also said he never had a problem with Lions coach Rod Marinelli,despite repeated reports Martz resisted requests to run the ball more. "The two years I was there I never had a conversation with Rod that we were doing something he didn't want," Martz said. "All those things that were reported, I shrugged my shoulders. He never expressed any displeasure with anything, ever."
...
Tackles probably are the most important component of a Martz offense and that explains why the Lions' offense was not as consistent as it needed to be.
"There are one or two things you would like to upgrade a little bit here, but the rest of it is in place," Martz said. "They're not even close in Detroit. So it's a big difference. Offensively, we were short two tackles. It's hard to run or throw without two tackles."



I guess Martz is not a Backus fan, nor apparently a Woody/Foster fan either.

I still say Backus would be a huge improvement at RT if we got a solid LT to replace him.

I agree. Too bad he makes LT money, which means we better find our new LT outside the first round.

Screw the money. I'd rather have an overpriced RT than a poor LT that can't hold his own.

That's true, except I think the overpriced RT would lead to cuts. It would be fine if we didn't also have an overpriced DE (Edwards) and various other overpaid dead weights.

Maybe enough of those useless contracts are gone now, I haven't looked at the cap numbers this year.

Any chance Marinelli gets under Edwards skin enough this year that he gets his butt to reach at least SOME of his potential? Or we trade him to a team that runst he 3-4 and he converts to an LB. I remember there being talk of that when he was coming out of college because he was a speed-rusher that was kind of small.

Any chance

Coulda stopped right there.

I know :(

IT'S ALWAYS COULDA, WOULDA, SHOULDA WITH YOU LIONS FANS ISN'T IT?

Well, we don't have anything else to talk about with them.

The false prophet Jon Kitna lied about winning 10-games this year. HE MUST PAY!

Well, if you include preseason........

wait, did we win 3 in the preseason?

Hows Kenoy Kennedy in most people's opinion here. leave asterisk on the crappy people he had around him in that secondary i guess. I found myself wondering if he'd be a nice pick up to put next to Huff in Oakland.

He lost a little bit when they took away his ability to lay down the big hits. He got fined so many times that he's tentative to really lay a guy out like he used to, which is what put fear in guys going over the middle against Denver and made him so valuable. Without that he's just been sort of mediocre.

^ Yeah, and getting truck sticked (Madden reference) by running backs.