No Piston is among the NBA's top 50 in minutes played.

No Piston is in the top 45 in scoring.

No Piston is in the top 35 in rebounding.

No Piston is in the top 25 in steals.

No Piston is in the top 15 in blocked shots.

Chauncey Billups is among the leaders in assists, but 17 and 8 is still somewhat underwhelming, considering the league's elite PGs.

I find the telling stat on this roster is team play and overall efficiency. Everybody performs his role without making mistakes.

The Pistons lead the NBA in assist-turnover ratio.

The Pistons are 5th in the NBA in %FG, and 8th in %FG allowed.

The Pistons are 11th in shooting the three, and 7th in defending it.

the Pistons are 1st in the NBA in not getting their shots blocked, and 2nd in fewest steals allowed.

No Piston is in the top 60 in turnovers.

Antonio McDyess, Chauncey Billups, Jason Maxiell, Jarvis Hayes and Tayshaun Prince are all shooting career-highs from the floor. The Pistons have three rotation players shooting above %50.

The Pistons have four players in the top 42 in assist/turnover ratio, one of them being Rip Hamilton of all people, who is only slightly behind Deron Williams.

The bottom line is, I like where this team is heading. Instead of trying to have the best starting 5 in the NBA, they're trying to create the best 9-man rotation in the NBA. So far, the results have been pretty damn good.

Great post K. Peeps can hate on Flip, but this is what he brings.

I think you may have meant something else by "4 in the top 4 in asst/to" near the end.

Nice stats.

So far, so good, that's for sure.

I still find myself looking forward to watching garbage time more than when the starters are in there.

Unless Lindsay is involved, that is.

Luckily, since "we" are playing so well, there's lots o' garbage time to go around.

Nice stats.

So far, so good, that's for sure.

I still find myself looking forward to watching garbage time more than when the starters are in there.

Unless Lindsay is involved, that is.
haterism

senior citizenism

All is good and well. Though we can only define our success by our playoff finish after the last two seasons. But we are playing slightly better defense. Definitely better perimeter defense. But I'd like to see more shot blocking.

I'd LOVE for Hunter to play garbage minutes. Too bad he plays 2nd quarter ones.

Net game play-by-play for Lindsey:

Sub in Hunter for Billups
Hunter 3pt: miss
Hunter 3pt: miss
Hunter personal foul (1)
Hunter assist (1)
Hunter 3pt: miss
Hunter free throws (both made)
Sub in Billup for Hunter

That's some serious 3-ball specialization.

All is good and well. Though we can only define our success by our playoff finish after the last two seasons. But we are playing slightly better defense. Definitely better perimeter defense. But I'd like to see more shot blocking.

Seriously?

Do you mean "I'd like to see more" because it's fun to watch or "I'd like to see more" because you think that is lacking?

I can agree that the starters could be blocking more shots, but we're doing okay for not having a legit center, and the kids are holding regular block parties out there.

It's actually my favorite thing to see, as of late.

Lindsey actually has fit in well recently with the 2nd unit, because they have guys like Maxiell and Jarvis that can get their own points without the help of a point guard.

Lindsey also seems to have gotten himself back into semi-decent shape, at least enough to play 4-6 minutes of pressure D.

He better not even see the floor at all when Stucko gets back.

I really don't want to get too excited about the Pistons based on these last 3 games, but the stats are actually pretty encouraging. Cool thread K, thanks.

He shouldn't. Flip is already trying to prepare Murray for bench minutes by making Lindsey the temporary backup PG.

Flip Murray discussion: http://wtfdetroit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10651

Let's try to keep this going in the direction that Kstat intended with the first post in this thread.

So..........

How about that team mentality.....

nice stats, Kstat.

can i be the first to say that this Pistons team is the best we've had in a while? or at least it's developing into what will be the best in years. we've always have among the best starting 5 in the NBA, and now our supporting bench is becoming formidable. instead of the bench treading water until the starters come back, they are becoming dangerous in their own way.

i predict the Pistons in the Finals despite a stronger East.

they're fun to watch again....sharing the ball, beating teams with team-play.

The only stat that impresses me is Minutes played. And even that is a bit skewed due to blowouts and some injuries. But, it's better than nothing. All of the other stats are typical Flip Saunders. The low-risk, perimeter based offense. It works well in the regular season (low TOs, young-season legs so Jumpers fall more frequently), but teams can zero in on it in a 7 game series.

Something I would be interested in seeing... Points in the Paint differential. Granted, we have gotten better on the offensive end with Max getting minutes now, but we still give up more inside buckets than we get it seems.

Max and Stuckey, IMO, will make or break the season as silly as that may (or may not) sound. We know what the main 5 guys are going to do. We know Jarvis is going to hit some jumpers off the bench. But those things won't be enough. We desperately need Maxiell to take that next step (looking good at the moment). He needs to be that rebounding/inside presence that Dice/Sheed don't provide. He even needs to become more of a post-up option. If he could come close to his last 3 games on a nightly basis, our post-season chances increase exponentially.

Stuckey is the biggest Wild Card. We need a 2nd dribble-penetrator that knows when to look for his own shot, and when to just run the offense. Who knows when his jumper isn't going, to slash to the rim looking for teammates or contact. Stuckey has to become that, and Flip needs to give him that chance.

The only stat that impresses me is Minutes played. And even that is a bit skewed due to blowouts and some injuries. But, it's better than nothing. All of the other stats are typical Flip Saunders. The low-risk, perimeter based offense. It works well in the regular season (low TOs, young-season legs so Jumpers fall more frequently), but teams can zero in on it in a 7 game series.

Something I would be interested in seeing... Points in the Paint differential. Granted, we have gotten better on the offensive end with Max getting minutes now, but we still give up more inside buckets than we get it seems.

Max and Stuckey, IMO, will make or break the season as silly as that may (or may not) sound. We know what the main 5 guys are going to do. We know Jarvis is going to hit some jumpers off the bench. But those things won't be enough. We desperately need Maxiell to take that next step (looking good at the moment). He needs to be that rebounding/inside presence that Dice/Sheed don't provide. He even needs to become more of a post-up option. If he could come close to his last 3 games on a nightly basis, our post-season chances increase exponentially.

Stuckey is the biggest Wild Card. We need a 2nd dribble-penetrator that knows when to look for his own shot, and when to just run the offense. Who knows when his jumper isn't going, to slash to the rim looking for teammates or contact. Stuckey has to become that, and Flip needs to give him that chance.

This post is dead-on accurate. Kudos to FP22.

A Flip Saunders offense does equate to a perimeter-based offense which does become easier to defend come playoff time, no doubt. Still, a part of me thinks this may be a result to the roster he's given considering all 5 starters are perimeter-based players (I still claim that tayshaun is the team's best play-maker out of the starting 5 which is not a good thing).

Even then I don't like that Flip Saunders is still living in 1999 in that he thinks he can control every aspect of the offense through his 10,000 play playbook and his half-court-oriented philosophy. Those days are gone. The ability to run the floor and get easy buckets is now imperative to success in the playoffs (yes, even the spurs run the floor) and Flip has yet to adjust which is why this team can't score the further it goes in the playoffs. Again, this could once again be due to the roster he had in the past vs. the one he may have now.

That's why the 3 players FP 22 listed above are without question the keys to the pistons success this year: hayes, maxiell and stuckey, the mysterious wildcard. Hayes' gunner mentality and ability to shoot at a relatively high percentage was just what this team needed off the bench (simply for the ability to put the ball in the hole) but, again, he's just another perimeter player.

Maxiell and Stuckey are different. It's no coincidence that the extremely solid play from maxiell over the last 3 games has resulted in the pistons looking like world beaters. If he can somehow figure out a way to consistently perform like this off the bench which has been his main battle (and attack the rim and shoot the 10-15 ft shot in the paint) this team will be very tough to beat. (Editor's note: I'm still pissed at Flip Saunders for benching maxiell last year in game 3 of the playoffs after he was the absolute reason the pistons won game 2...I'll never understand a flip saunders substitution thought process...)

Add Stuckey's supposed ability to drive to the tin, something this team desperately needs, and either finish and/or hopefully dish the rock to the mix...well, his game should be a perfect compliment to the rest of the team especially when coupled with the perimeter-oriented big men this team possesses. If Stuckey is as good as people think, and I have my doubts, this team could be really good (if they can figure out how to stop opponents from getting to the rim....) Should be interesting to watch.

I think Stuckey is just as solid and similar a prospect as CBill when he came into the league(not so big school PG who lit things up, but is mistaken for a SG in most scouts minds). The question is can he get jump started faster than CBill did bouncing around team to team. I think he has a decent mentor in Billups. But like early Billups I think he has to learn more balance on passing and shooting. Though his balance is already light years ahead of Flip.


(I still claim that tayshaun is the team's best play-maker out of the starting 5 which is not a good thing).
Not even close, its Billups. You mistaken his facilitating for a loss of playmaking skill. But he's still our best Playmaker when he wants to be.

You're both wrong. The Pistons' best playmaker is Ronald "Flip" Murray.

You forget that they said starting 5, Karl. Now we all know FlipM is the best player on the team by far, but for some reason FlipS doesn't start him. I'll never fully understand that. Don't you want your best player on the floor with the ball in his hands at all times. Just look how well that's working out for the Lakers. FlipM is our Kobe DAMMIT!

You forget that they said starting 5, Karl. [/COLOR]

D'oh! Technical knockout

Did somebody say technical?

Couldn't have been me. It was legit.

Not even close, its Billups. You mistaken his facilitating for a loss of playmaking skill. But he's still our best Playmaker when he wants to be.

Again it's just my opinion but I do think Prince is better at taking the ball off the dribble (sometimes at a snail's pace) and getting into the paint for potential opportunities for himself and teammates.

Billups has always had a good assist/to ratio because he rarely takes chances driving to the hoop/taking his opponent off the dribble and when he does it's usually to create a shot/free throw opportunity for himself. He's not what people would consider a playmaking point guard.

The cavs exploited this out of him last year in the playoffs by putting a larger man defending him (taking away his jump shot) and/or doubling him forcing Billups to create off the dribble. He had more TOs than Assists in that series.

Billups also has the luxury of playing with some of the best off-the-ball offensive players in the league which makes his inability to create for others not much of a liability. I found it funny how they showed the highlights of Chauncey's 10-assist-in-the-first-quarter effort against the knicks this year and all he did was stand at the top of the key and dish to Rip and tayshaun coming off screens. He's not a playmaker in the true sense of being a playmaking point-guard, that's obvious.

We desperately need Maxiell to take that next step (looking good at the moment). He needs to be that rebounding/inside presence that Dice/Sheed don't provide.
Note that Dice's rebounding is pretty darn good, and Sheed's is ok and he knows how to box out. Where we get let down is with Chauncey/Rip/Tay. Most teams have one player in their starting 1-3 that are consistently good rebounders for their position. We don't, and all are below average on the whole. We had that masked somewhat last year by some excellent rebounding off the bench. But with Delfino gone and Dice starting, we've needed Max and Nazr to step up. Thank goodness they have!

It's that inside (defensive) presence thing that's been lacking, especially since Dice has been trying to stay out of foul trouble. I'm not so sure that Max is really the long-term answer here just yet. For every time I see him swatting shots and eating babies, I think of Boozer lighting him up, his troubles against the likes of Harrington, etc.

Rip is our best post defender. Sheed just stands there with his long arms in the air. Not a traditional post defending PF, that's obvious.

RIP has improved a lot on defense since we first got him. My only real complaint with him is the whining. A lot of that comes from stuff he gets busted on but won't admit it (like using the off arm to create space to run around a screen).

Rip is our best post defender? Really? What about Prince? What about McDyess? I'd rather have one of them guarding someone in the post than Rip. Unless of course you meant based on position, like Rip is better in the post vs other SGs than Sheed is against Cs and Prince is against SFs. Even then, I'd have to question that statement.

It was supposed to be as stupid as saying Tay is our best facilitator, but evidently people are taking it more seriously than that. I'll have to think of something more ridiculous.

I wasn't taking it seriously, I just said that actually he has improved a lot.

Ahhh, i thought the lack of green text meant you were actually serious. I was afraid for your sanity.

It was supposed to be as stupid as saying Tay is our best facilitator, but evidently people are taking it more seriously than that. I'll have to think of something more ridiculous.

I love being called stupid, you may be right.

I know it's against popular belief that a guy that gets so many assists (billups) isn't a good playmaker but having assists doesn't necessarily mean you're good at creating for others. It can mean:

1. You always have the ball in your hands (flip murray and jerry stackhouse get assists because eventually even they have to pass the ball when trying to take it 1 on 5).

2. You have an offense built on guys moving without the ball and you play with guys that are really good at doing just that and all you are asked to do is facilitate the play for that shot (billups). He's not asked to create opportunities for others just run the play (which is also why he doesn't turn the ball over).

It's just like getting steals doesn't mean you're necessarily a good defensive player, it just means you take more chances. John Stockton is the all-time steals leader but was an atrocious defensive player (and it was his defensive liability that played a large part in he and malone never winning a championship).

Note that Dice's rebounding is pretty darn good, and Sheed's is ok and he knows how to box out. Where we get let down is with Chauncey/Rip/Tay. Most teams have one player in their starting 1-3 that are consistently good rebounders for their position. We don't, and all are below average on the whole. We had that masked somewhat last year by some excellent rebounding off the bench. But with Delfino gone and Dice starting, we've needed Max and Nazr to step up. Thank goodness they have!

It's that inside (defensive) presence thing that's been lacking, especially since Dice has been trying to stay out of foul trouble. I'm not so sure that Max is really the long-term answer here just yet. For every time I see him swatting shots and eating babies, I think of Boozer lighting him up, his troubles against the likes of Harrington, etc.

I agree that Dice is a good rebounder, and Sheed can be solid when he wants to be, but like you said, that's not enough. And since Chauncey/Rip/Tay aren't magically going to start making an effort on the glass, we need Max for that. But the Sheed/Dice thing was more about inside presence.

Now, maybe you're talking in the past in a game which I didn't see, but I don't remember Max ever guarding Boozer this year. He was on Okur the whole night. Dice was the guy getting lit by Boozer (And face it, everyone gets lit by Boozer). And every guy has bad matchups. There are certain guys that light up Sheed, and certain guys that used to light up Ben. It's the nature of the game. On the whole, I feel like Max does a solid job man-to-man on D. His help D comes and goes, but he's certainly an upgrade over Dice there, and he leads the team in blocks.

The inside presence I was talking about was more along the lines of offensively though. We've already got 2 bigs who stand out at the 18 foot area all day. Max's willingness to rough it up inside for dunks and FTs is probably the biggest improvement in this team over a year ago.

Max's ability to make some FTs has a lot to do with it. I don't think he was ever really "unwilling" to rough it up, against anyone. :)

I love being called stupid, you may be right.

I know it's against popular belief that a guy that gets so many assists (billups) isn't a good playmaker but having assists doesn't necessarily mean you're good at creating for others. It can mean:

1. You always have the ball in your hands (flip murray and jerry stackhouse get assists because eventually even they have to pass the ball when trying to take it 1 on 5).

2. You have an offense built on guys moving without the ball and you play with guys that are really good at doing just that and all you are asked to do is facilitate the play for that shot (billups). He's not asked to create opportunities for others just run the play (which is also why he doesn't turn the ball over).

It's just like getting steals doesn't mean you're necessarily a good defensive player, it just means you take more chances. John Stockton is the all-time steals leader but was an atrocious defensive player (and it was his defensive liability that played a large part in he and malone never winning a championship).


I just think you are narrowing the term "playmaker" to fit your definition. Is having the ability to knock down a 3 which draws your man close, using your shoulder to push past a big man on the pick and roll, then passing out of a double team you forced to a center who can knock down a 29 foot trey making a play? Is that player as much of a "playmaker" as Chris Paul who dribble-drives to the hole and draws the double so he can hand the ball to Tyson Chandler right at the rim for a dunk attempt?

One of those players fits our system. Makes plays in our system. Neither thing is easy, neither of the players could do what the other does.

Neither could Tay.

He's not compairing Prince to Chris Paul. He's simply saying Billups is not a true playmaker, which he is not. He can manage an offense well, but doesn't create plays that other solid but not great PG's can't.

He's simply not on the same level as Nash, Paul, Williams, Kidd, Parker, etc in creating for his teammates. He makes up for that by being a great shooter.

I don't know if I would say Tay is a better playmaker myself, but Billups is a scoring PG who passes well. he's not a playmaker persay IMO.

He's not compairing Prince to Chris Paul. He's simply saying Billups is not a true playmaker, which he is not. He can manage an offense well, but doesn't create plays that other solid but not great PG's can't.

He's simply not on the same level as Nash, Paul, Williams, Kidd, Parker, etc in creating for his teammates. He makes up for that by being a great shooter.

I don't know if I would say Tay is a better playmaker myself, but Billups is a scoring PG who passes well. he's not a playmaker persay IMO.

HE IS NOT PARKER.....HE IS NOT PRINCE....HE IS MUCH CLOSER TO PARKER....TO COMPARE HIM TO PRINCE IS, AND I AM NOT USING THIS TERM LIGHTLY, STUPID. LAUGHABLE.

YOU HONESTLY DON'T KNOW IF YOU WOULD SAY IF TAY IS BETTER? REALLY CHRIS? COME FUCKING ON.

Again it's just my opinion but I do think Prince is better at taking the ball off the dribble (sometimes at a snail's pace) and getting into the paint for potential opportunities for himself and teammates.

Billups has always had a good assist/to ratio because he rarely takes chances driving to the hoop/taking his opponent off the dribble and when he does it's usually to create a shot/free throw opportunity for himself. He's not what people would consider a playmaking point guard.

The cavs exploited this out of him last year in the playoffs by putting a larger man defending him (taking away his jump shot) and/or doubling him forcing Billups to create off the dribble. He had more TOs than Assists in that series.

Billups also has the luxury of playing with some of the best off-the-ball offensive players in the league which makes his inability to create for others not much of a liability. I found it funny how they showed the highlights of Chauncey's 10-assist-in-the-first-quarter effort against the knicks this year and all he did was stand at the top of the key and dish to Rip and tayshaun coming off screens. He's not a playmaker in the true sense of being a playmaking point-guard, that's obvious.
Thats a long post to prove nothing. No offense, but you can't honestly say that we win games w/o billups especially in the playoffs. Being the playmaker doesnt make him unstoppable and bringing up the taller guys being put on him reflects how important he is as a playmaker. Our losses in those scenarios may just be tied to him getting shut down.

Cavs exploited what? The same thing the Spurs did in Game 7? That teams have been doing the past 4 years? So when Kobe gets shut down he's no longer a playmaker?

I just think you are narrowing the term "playmaker" to fit your definition. Is having the ability to knock down a 3 which draws your man close, using your shoulder to push past a big man on the pick and roll, then passing out of a double team you forced to a center who can knock down a 29 foot trey making a play? Is that player as much of a "playmaker" as Chris Paul who dribble-drives to the hole and draws the double so he can hand the ball to Tyson Chandler right at the rim for a dunk attempt?

One of those players fits our system. Makes plays in our system. Neither thing is easy, neither of the players could do what the other does.

Neither could Tay.

No doubt I'm twisting the word playmaker to fit my definition of what a playmaker is and you're also right that the ultimate problem for this team's failure the past few years is systemic (which again could be flip using the system to fit his players) so let me make it clear to you what I mean.

At some point someone has to be able to create a shot towards the basket for himself and others for a higher percentage shot than the jump shot examples you listed above. That doesn't work in the playoffs. It only works against the hawks, nets, bucks and knicks in November/December and parts of january.

Also, the system doesn't work all the time. The play doesn't run all the time which is why you need players that are capable of making plays otherwise you're going to have multiple possessions during the playoffs where you don't score.

I'll try to keep it simple for you. The further you go in the playoffs you need someone that is capable of creating opportunities for himself and others, preferably towards the rim (basic basketball), because you won't be able to run your play to perfection like you can against the aforementioned hawks, nets, bucks and knicks. The spurs have 2 guys that when the play breaks down they can do something with the ball to create for themselves and others (parker/ginobili). The teams that win when it counts most usually have that guy.

(Editor's Note: Having that 7-foot post-scoring presence also qualifies because you always have someone to dump it to when the play breaks down to either shoot a high percentage shot or pass out of a double team. It's also why shaq, duncan and olajuwon won multiple championships- christ, the spurs are good)

And usually when the play breaks down it's in the hands of the point guard or some guy that handles the rock 90% of the time or whom that team coins the "playmaker" (on the lakers it's kobe, the spurs are lucky because they have 2 guys that are exceptional at creating opportunities).

The Pistons have Chauncey Billups handling the rock 90% of the time. To me, he's not skilled at creating for anyone other than himself on the perimeter and when the play breaks down he's virtually useless because his skill is running the play. That's an important point to understand.

To me, Tayshaun Prince is the more skilled player at creating an opportunity towards the basket, in the paint, whether that's taking his man off the dribble or backing his man in the paint to create the double and as a result a potentially higher percentage shot for himself or others.

I don't think that's too outrageous of a statement. Do I want him running this offense? No. Do I think he can do more things than billups with the basketball? Yes.

I also think that's why the pistons struggle to score in the playoffs and ultimately are unwatchable. Even if tayshaun or chauncey, pick your poison, are the "best playmakers on this team" that's not a good thing because neither of them are in the class of the aforementioned spurs, kobe's, lebrons, wades, even pauls and deron williams of the world of playmaking individuals.

Hopefully Stuckey is our savior.

Fair, you have expressed an opinion, I continue to think that it is inconceivably stupid. I find it amazing that someone with the attention span required to write something that long could think such a thing. I understand your opinion of Chauncey and Tay could both be very different than mine, but I can't, under any circumstance, begin to imagine how you came to your conclusion.

I watched the playoffs, I watched the Cavs double Cbil at near half court to get the ball out of his hands, I saw Tay get it, and I saw him self distruct despite the Cavs handing him numerous opportunities to use what abilities he has displayed in the past. This, let alone the unmanned lanes he refused to exploit as CLE defenders ran back to recover. While I will hope he develops into the player you describe having seen, I place no such expectation.

HE IS NOT PARKER.....HE IS NOT PRINCE....HE IS MUCH CLOSER TO PARKER....TO COMPARE HIM TO PRINCE IS, AND I AM NOT USING THIS TERM LIGHTLY, STUPID. LAUGHABLE.

YOU HONESTLY DON'T KNOW IF YOU WOULD SAY IF TAY IS BETTER? REALLY CHRIS? COME FUCKING ON.
I disagree. Cbill is much closer to Tay actually. He is a good outside shooter that can create to the basket for himself. He is a good passer, but best at finding the open teammate in a set play and not creating for others. Parker is nothing like Billups is. Parker is a bad outside shooter, shoots mostly from the paint, and when he operates in the dribble he is always in attack mode. Billups uses the dribble to set up his outside shot, mostly stepping back and hitting jumpers. Parker and Billups are not even close.

In terms of ability to make plays Chris. That is what we are talking about. Not in terms of style. That is a different thread.

Fair, you have expressed an opinion, I continue to think that it is inconceivably stupid. I find it amazing that someone with the attention span required to write something that long could think such a thing. I understand your opinion of Chauncey and Tay could both be very different than mine, but I can't, under any circumstance, begin to imagine how you came to your conclusion.

I watched the playoffs, I watched the Cavs double Cbil at near half court to get the ball out of his hands, I saw Tay get it, and I saw him self distruct despite the Cavs handing him numerous opportunities to use what abilities he has displayed in the past. This, let alone the unmanned lanes he refused to exploit as CLE defenders ran back to recover. While I will hope he develops into the player you describe having seen, I place no such expectation.

Don't forget Larry Hughes also taking away billups' perimeter offense as being a large factor. The doubles didn't really come consistently until he hurt himself and gibson started making billups look like the rookie.

Take away the billups jump shot and you take away his ability to do anything. Deron Williams did the same thing to billups this year, he's a guy that's equally as physical as billups and twice the player on both ends of the floor.

And yes, tayshaun did struggle in that series with his shot in a way he's never had before. Maybe that's because he became the primary playmaker, as you stated because cleveland forced this to occur, in a pistons system designed for this not to occur. It took the pistons to adjust (or for billups to be good enough to not double....teams don't double tony parker, steve nash, deron williams, etc. because they are too difficult to double and will always find the open man) and this did not happen because the pistons aren't good enough, specifically neither prince or billups as I referenced before.

But I still think prince can do more things with the basketball.

LOL @ "Pistons system designed for this not to occur"! Yes, when Tay has a clear path to the hoop he is under strict direction not to lay it in or draw defenders. Rip runs many of the same sets, comes off the same curls, spots up in the same places, receives the same passes, plays with the same guys, and gets nearly twice the assists. If only our system would free Nazr to be the playmaker we all know he could be.

And nice pick of Deron as a guy who stops Chauncey. Would you like me to list the guys in this league who are better than Tay at the SF spot? One of our guys is a deserving 2 time all-star, one has never been close. But all that is moot anyway, keep on with the agenda.

Prince struggled in that Cavs series because guarding LeBron wore him out.

None of this matters if they don't beat the faggot Bulls by 15-20 points on Friday.

Speaking of stats...

The pistons are #2 in the league in points allowed at 91.9

:mccosky:


In case you missed it

I know most of you have been caught up in other sporting matters -- Les Miles, Lions freefall, blockbuster Tigers' trade -- but your friendly neighborhood Pistons have been on a bit of a tear. They've won four straight, six out of the last seven. The last four they've won by an average margin of 23.8 points. They are on an offensive run not seen around here since the Bad Boys. They have averaged 112.5 points in the last four wins, shooting well above 50 percent. As a team, they are averaging 101 points and shooting .479 from the field. The last Piston team to shoot better than that was the championship 1988-1989 team (.494).

So, yeah, it's been pretty impressive. It's remarkable to watch the chemistry between the starters and coach Flip Saunders now. He and Chauncey Billups, in particular, are so in-tuned with each other and the game plan, it's like they are completing each other's thoughts in terms of in-game adjustments. Saunders will bark out a play. Most times, Billups will agree, but a couple of times against the Hawks, Billups saw something he liked better and vetoed the call. Saunders nodded his head each time and watched as Billups executed another scoring possession.

But credit Saunders for making necessary alterations and implementations after the Pistons got back from that West Coast trip. The offense had gotten stagnant and predictable, too much isolation play, and he was able to get the motion and ball movement back in the attack. He noticed that teams were switching and overplaying certain staples of the Pistons' offense -- like the two-chest play they run for Rip Hamilton -- and he devised some pretty crafty counters to take advantage of that.

The two-chest play is designed to have Hamilton run from side to side along the baseline and free himself with screens that are available on either side. Teams were overplaying him so much, he was having a hard time getting the ball. They were waiting for him near the elbows where he would normally catch the ball. So Saunders altered the play to have Hamilton fake like he was coming all the way around, stop under the basket and come back and receive the ball on the strong side closer to the basket. That counter play worked at least four times Tuesday, even though Rip missed the easy shot a couple of times.

But it's not just Flip. Billups, Tayshaun Prince, all the starters are making adjustments on the fly during games, as well. For example, early in the game Tuesday, Rasheed Wallace noticed that Hawks rookie Al Horford was steadfastly refusing to come out on the high pick-and-roll play. The Pistons took full advantage of that, with Wallace and McDyess scoring eight points each in the first quarter.

Love watching these guys when they play like this. MLTP?

Another thing you might have missed was Wallace's second technical foul of the season. It was a real cheapie. It was early in the game, 5:04 left in the first quarter. Referee Olandis Poole cited him for saying, essentially, "Don't start calling that (crap)." Poole explained to Saunders that it was too early in the game for Wallace to start chirping. It was a weak call.

The other thing you might have missed, Amir Johnson blocked five shots in the final five minutes of that game in Atlanta. The Hawks had cut a 28-point lead to 12 against the Pistons' reserves in the fourth quarter. But Johnson was swatting everything away that he could reach in order to hold the fort until Flip Murray and Jarvis Hayes put together a closing run.

Of course, now that I've heaped all this praise on the Pistons, you know they are going to get spanked in New Orleans. The Hornets haven't played in three days, while the Pistons are playing the fourth game in five nights. But for you minutes-watchers, note this -- each of the five starters have averaged less than 32 minutes in each of the last three games.


You complete me.

No, YOU complete ME.

they are playing very well, I'm actually impressed, which is a rarity. I still have questions about their interior defense though.

The thing is though, the Pistons are shooting well and executing offense well right now, as evidenced by their 100+ scoring average... the real test is, how well do we defend when our offense is SHIT? That determines whether we come out of the East or not.
When we won the title, our defense was the Best in the NBA. We could have really shitty offensive games, and still win just because we out-defended the enemy, just harassed them into submission. A team like Cleveland in the playoffs the last two years, were not a better team, and are mostly garbage other than Lebron, but they unquestionably played stingier defense on us than we did them.

I'm happy that this is allowing us to ease up on starter's minutes and develop the bench. I still want to see Amir get more floor time. And I am very impressed with him:
http://www.nysun.com/pics/54084_main_large.jpg
MAX. WANT. BABIES. *roar*

LOL @ "Pistons system designed for this not to occur"! Yes, when Tay has a clear path to the hoop he is under strict direction not to lay it in or draw defenders. Rip runs many of the same sets, comes off the same curls, spots up in the same places, receives the same passes, plays with the same guys, and gets nearly twice the assists. If only our system would free Nazr to be the playmaker we all know he could be.

And nice pick of Deron as a guy who stops Chauncey. Would you like me to list the guys in this league who are better than Tay at the SF spot? One of our guys is a deserving 2 time all-star, one has never been close. But all that is moot anyway, keep on with the agenda.

Yes, the pistons are designed to score only when they successfully run plays. That is their system. Take that away and they struggle. This is not a difficult concept to understand.

And yes, Rip has more assists than Tay because he gets 3 times more plays run for him (and 3 times more touches). Give Tayshaun the same # of touches and then we can accurately make a comparison (is there a touch/assist stat available? Tayshaun does have a better assist/TO ratio than Rip). In this system the people with the most touches get the most assists (and chauncey is guaranteed to touch it on every possession).

This is also very, very basic.

And yes, I'm sure you can list a decent # of people that are better than Tayshaun at his position in this league. So can I. Both he and Chauncey are similar in that they are both above average at their position but neither are anywhere near the top.

It's also another reason why this team gets in so many scoring droughts (or used to before they started getting scoring from their bench this season), there's no one the pistons can count on for 25 a night or dish out assists/create shots for others. This team rarely has anyone explode for 35 to make up for someone, or which is often the case more than one of the "big 4", having an off night.

It's also why it's imperative that this team has scoring options off the bench because when the jumpers aren't falling for the starters (which are the usual results, jumps shots that is, of this team running its plays) there has to be someone consistently coming off the bench that can supply some scoring.

This team is starting to see that with hayes and maxiell. Again, it's no surprise that this win streak coincides with the consistent contributions of both players. It could get even better if Stuckey is any good. I, for one, am excited to see what might happen.

Back to the original point, I understand that I'm probably in the minority here but I do believe tayshaun can do more with the basketball in his hands than Chauncey and he's really not that good it, as I've already said. Neither of them are exceptionally good at it. Have you ever seen Chauncey run a fast break? Oh, yeah, that's right. He doesn't. If he does it's usually another bad 3-point attempt.

I'm also not saying that chauncey is god awful, he's a very competent NBA player at his position and he is exceptional at managing a team/running this system. (again, is it the system or the players?) I'm merely saying that when the play breaks down he's not very good at making up for it. This whole team is not very good at making up for it. He, like everyone else on this team, is flawed.

Does this all make more sense to you now?

Yes, the pistons are designed to score only when they successfully run plays. That is their system. Take that away and they struggle.

...the spurs do the exact same thing...

This team is starting to see that with hayes and maxiell. Again, it's no surprise that this win streak coincides with the consistent contributions of both players. It could get even better if Stuckey is any good. I, for one, am excited to see what might happen.

agreed x 100. i'm really excited for Stuckey to get back and get rolling with the team. i'm excited to see Flip Murray's ball-hogging ass back to the end of the bench.

And yes, Rip has more assists than Tay because he gets 3 times more plays run for him (and 3 times more touches). Give Tayshaun the same # of touches and then we can accurately make a comparison (is there a touch/assist stat available? Tayshaun does have a better assist/TO ratio than Rip). In this system the people with the most touches get the most assists (and chauncey is guaranteed to touch it on every possession).


This could have something to do with Rip's penchant for dribbling into a wall of defenders and making his patented "oh I'll just jump in the air and see what happens" move that has better than a 50-50 chance of resulting in a turnover.

I love what he brings to the team and he does a lot of things well but I still cringe every time he holds on to the ball and tries to "create" with it.

I swear I've read an article by him some other season saying the same thing about Billups and Flip, completing each others sentences and shit.

...the spurs do the exact same thing...
The only difference is, when things break down they have more options than us. They can:

A) Just give it to Duncan in the post and let him do his thing. (If Sheed were in the post more, we could do the same)

B) Let Parker create something. (Billups just can't do what Parker can in that department)

C) Let Manu create something. (He's not the best at it, but he's better than what we've got. He's like a better version of Delfino, who could create his shot sometimes but never really seemed to try)

Unfortunately, stats cannot sub-in a small forward to guard Nocioni when he's lighting up all of our bigs. That is why I will never be impressed with Flip Saunders and the "stats" that come with his teams. He just doesn't know how to make the obvious in-game adjustments.

Somebody post some cool Pistons stats.

Who leads the team in +/- this year?

That kind of shit.

I haven't checked 82gamescom, but I'd be most astonished if it weren't CBill leading in +/-.