For a guy that takes so much shit around here, the guy can play.

He's cheap, versatile and he accepts his role.

Why would they trade him? What better could they get in return?

KEEP FLIP MURRAY!!

Min. contract. Should be a 10th man on most teams. Not Joe's fault that's all he can spend.

Depends on how many minutes he gets...

Keep in mind I posted this before todays game...


Though that one shot [Murray] did get was great...

I like Murray. He is a good scorer, and doesn't complain about his job off the bench. Sure, his defence and playmaking might be fucking horrible, but if Chauncey goes down with injury we are screwed anyway, even if Murray was adequate.
He is still the only player (I havnt seen Stuckey yet) I've seen on our team who drives consistently.
Rip was doing better last season, but he will always be a jumpshooter (and rightfully so)

I have always liked the guy, maybe thats because I hardly ever get to see him play, so I only see his scores. Seeing as I never hear him complain about his lack of role in the team, only hearing about how hard he works to get better, I do like the guy.

If he could be consistent, I'd be all for the guy. But it seems like he goes in some real slumps. Not always shooting, but not even getting a comfortable shot.

Flip, MM and Hayes had a nice stretch there in the 3rd(?) that contributed to this win.

Is there a "The Jury is still out" Option j/k

Is the inconsistently a result of such varied PT?

Or maybe because of Saunders' system, ie. jump shots?

Like I said, I dont see him play enough to determine why. Every time I see him play, he gets into the lane well, but his jumper stinks.

Is the inconsistently a result of such varied PT?



He had stretches last year when he knew he was going to play that he played really good in. Like tonight, he knew he'd get the time.

Glenn, since we saw Fool be brought to tears because of his "It happened" thread, I expect nothing but results from this thread.

Yes, I do remember when he was put into the starting spot he played well. Whether thats just me remembering the good games or not remains to be seen... anyone have stats handy?

For the 2007 season:

18 starts
35.4 minutes per start
10.8 ppg
5 apg
40.6% FG

FlipM is streaky as hell. He'll have great games, then he'll have these games where you're like "what the fuck, what a waste of space". He was horrible in the playoffs against us when he was with the Cavs.

I feel about him the same way I have about Delfino. I feel he can be an asset at times, but I wouldn't think twice about trading him if something decent came along as an alternative.

He's Delfino w/o the upside. Streaky shooter who can go colder than a frozen tundra just as fast as lava hot. I'd prefer more consistency from someone taking his place. With Stuckey out, we are stuck with Flippity Doo Da X2

I'd rather have Murray than Dupree or Hunter so I say we keep him. We can't really get anyhing for him and he's cheap insurance.

I dont really like Murray but I'm all for keeping him around for situations like this, where 2 of our guards (Rip and Stuckey) are out. He does ok, sometimes good sometimes awful.

But if I had to choose between him and Ronald "I do nothing" Dupree, I'd choose him.

I never really saw the infatuation with Delfino.

I believe this is his contract year, right? If so, why trade him? We all know that most ballers have a great year during their contract year. I agree we should keep him as insurance off the bench.

I never really saw the infatuation with Delfino.

Me neither...he'd make one outstanding play every 5 games he played in that'd make you say "man when this guy hits his stride..." but I'm glad he's gone, he always looked like he was dogging it...

He's in a contract year...enjoy it but don't believe he'll be playing like this next season.

So should we assume that those of you that voted "trade or waive" would have preferred that Lindsay got Flip's minutes last night?

i wouldnt prefer it, im just indifferent to it.

our guards go:

billups and hamilto
stuckey
AA
flip and lindsey

atleast in my mind. who cares who our 5th guard is?

we have 15 guys on this roster and it sounds like we're picking webber back up eventually, and i still think we need a backup sf.

flip has no future here, i dont care about his present. i want those minutes to go to our guys who will be here in the future. there wont be too many more games with 2 of our top 3 guards out, so im not worrying about games like last night.

Once Flip hit's his midseason wall in December, he won't even see the floor...

The fact remains, without Flip, Lindsay is getting significant PT.

How does that help the youth movement?

that's not even giving veteran players a good reputation.

The fact remains, without Flip, Lindsay is getting significant PT.

How does that help the youth movement?


Stuckey's injury is a variable in that equation...had he not been hurt, and Rip didn't have a child out of wedlock, neither Flip nor Lindsay would be getting any significant minutes right now...

I don't really like Flip that much, but we have to keep him. Flip's best role here would be to not play (when Stuckey is back), and fill in for Billups or RIP if either go down. I like Flip as an insurance policy, but not part of the normal rotation. He's cheap and on a 1 year deal, so we might as well keep him.

Well said, Chris.

The "waive" option was presented here as a joke, because there clearly is no incentive to waive him now.

He's got plenty of trade value now if you want him gone, which I don't think Joe D, does.

You're just hating b-d.

It's okay, I've been there before.

I'd just rather have a cheap, skilled and accepting Flip as an insurance policy than have the "Horace Jenkins" of the month.

Flip will single handidly win a couple of games for us this year.

Sell High...

1) i dont think he has trade value

2) this thread will be laughed at in a month, or 2. its only going to take a few 1-9 nights before everyone turns on him again. or worse, he steals time from stuckey.

we're going to need a roster slot for c-webb or another sf, so he's got one foot out the door, anyway. i'd think.

Do you think it's a lock for another Dumars "mid-season acquisition to bolster the team for the playoff run" this season?

We don't have the contracts to send out and get a quality piece in return, our only hope is picking up buyouts...IMO

1) i dont think he has trade value

2) this thread will be laughed at in a month, or 2. its only going to take a few 1-9 nights before everyone turns on him again. or worse, he steals time from stuckey.

we're going to need a roster slot for c-webb or another sf, so he's got one foot out the door, anyway. i'd think.

If he steals PT from Stuckey, then I will be mad.

I think Dupree gets cut if Webber comes here anyway.

What if Stuckey is raw?

Do you think it's a lock for another Dumars "mid-season acquisition to bolster the team for the playoff run" this season?

We don't have the contracts to send out and get a quality piece in return, our only hope is picking up buyouts...IMO

another?? webber only kind of counts. before that? sheed? i would say, just based on his track record, that joe will not be adding a significant piece to help the pistons.


one last thing on flip.

he signed he for dirt cheep. he actually PICKED UP his option this summer (his choice!). if other teams actually wanted him, they could have had him. no one wanted him. thats why he signed here for what he did, and thats why he picked up his option.

What if Stuckey is raw?

Don't care. We can't win with a %38 chucker who sometimes nuts up and takes the ball to the rim (where he can't find anyone to pass to ever). If Murray is playing 20 minutes a night, our offense will continue to bog down when the bench comes in. It has for years. We have to take our lumps with Stuckey and hope he isn't raw all year.

Why do you guys think AA started instead of Flip? The change of pace aspect? Would Stuckey have started if healthy.

I wonder how long Aaron will run up and down the court of fast breaks never to get the ball.

I think a rookie is easier to hide with the our starters.

another?? webber only kind of counts. before that? sheed? i would say, just based on his track record, that joe will not be adding a significant piece to help the pistons.


one last thing on flip.

he signed he for dirt cheep. he actually PICKED UP his option this summer (his choice!). if other teams actually wanted him, they could have had him. no one wanted him. thats why he signed here for what he did, and thats why he picked up his option.


Tony Delk...

Why do you guys think AA started instead of Flip? The change of pace aspect? Would Stuckey have started if healthy.

I wonder how long Aaron will run up and down the court of fast breaks never to get the ball.



Maybe just to give him the experience? Not sure. Flip is a liability on defense...and I bet Saunders would never have guessed Murray was going to do what he did in the first 2 games

Why do you guys think AA started instead of Flip? The change of pace aspect? Would Stuckey have started if healthy.

I wonder how long Aaron will run up and down the court of fast breaks never to get the ball.

1. Afflalo is a gamer. He'll continue to run hard every play, because that's what he does, going back to his UCLA days. the guy never quits hustling.

2. I think Afflalo would have started regardless for several reasons.

-Saunders does not want Murray thinking he's anything other than a backup SG

-Saunders wants Stuckey comfortable running the point before he starts letting him play the 2.

-Afflalo gives that defensive aspect to a starting 5 that's loaded with offensive players. Really no point in inserting another scorer with Prince, Billups, Sheed and Dice, especially when you have a big guard that can defend and hit the open jumper.

-Saunders does not want Murray thinking he's anything other than a backup SG




It's like not punishing a dog after it gets in the garbage, you don't want it to think it's alright.

What if Stuckey is raw?

He's not high-school raw to the point where he just cannot physically keep up (Ala Amir the last couple years). At the stage he's at, the only way he makes strides is by playing. He needs NBA experience. Watching games does not provide that.

-Saunders wants Stuckey comfortable running the point before he starts letting him play the 2.


If that's the case, then Flip's going about it the wrong way. You have to let the guy do what he's comfortable with at least part of the time. You want to ease him into the PG role, not the other way around.

Let me enlighten you.

Flip > Lindsay >Horace Jenkins

Tony Delk...
I'm amazed it took that long for that name to get tossed out there

:yingyang:

Let me enlighten you.

Awesome.

Let me enlighten you.

Flip < Lindsay <Horace Jenkins
fixed it.

Tony Delk > all.

Flip is sadly light years better than Lindsey Hunter at this point. Hunter should not even be in the NBA, the guy has already stopped keeping himself in shape. Michael Curry looks more floor-ready.

Tony Delk > all.

Check your PMs.

I think having the worst playoff shooter of all time doesn't help us somehow.

Check your PMs.


There's nothing there...

God damn kids and their silly little pranks. Were you that asshole that left the bag of flaming dog shit on my porch too?

NVM, sorry for the little tirade Glenn.

Wow, just so you know...I do not agree with that fellow Delk lover. He has twisted the meaning of being a Tony Delk fan.

lindsey has done more for this team than flip could ever dream of. if we need a guard to play 10 a game over a 5 game stretch, im calling #10, not whatever the hell number murray wears.

Glenn, what # is Flip?

lindsey has done more for this team than flip could ever dream of. if we need a guard to play 10 a game over a 5 game stretch, im calling #10, not whatever the hell number murray wears.

I completely agree with this sentiment. Lindsey is probably the best on-the-ball defender at the 1-position potentially to ever play this game (not joking here). That in and of itself makes him much more valuable than Flip Murray.

Yes, he's getting older and yes he's never been a consistent offensive threat (neither is flip) but at least he has a skill that is severely underrated at a position that's potentially the most challenging to defend. Did you see Flip trying to defend Acie Law during the hawks' second quarter run? Flip Murray is really bad on both ends of the floor and 1 good game out of 20 does not alter this opinion in my eyes.

Lindsey hasn't played defense in 3 years. He's about 25 lbs overweight and can barely move....watching Cleveland's guards drive right by him with ease in last year's playoffs should have hammered hat point home.

Flip Murray's been a better defensive player since Lindsey since he signed here, and that's an indictment on Lindsey more than it is a compliment to Flip.

Again, Lindsey is not an option. Dumars is essentially going with a roster of 14 players, because Lindsey is not in any condition to see the floor this year, and he admitted as much.

This season is nothing more than a thank-you to Lindsey for his service by allowing him to get one last year's paycheck as an NBA player. That's it.

Lindsey hasn't played defense in 3 years. He's about 25 lbs overweight and can barely move....watching Cleveland's guards drive right by him with ease in last year's playoffs should have hammered hat point home.

Flip Murray's been a better defensive player since Lindsey since he signed here, and that's an indictment on Lindsey more than it is a compliment to Flip.

Again, Lindsey is not an option. Dumars is essentially going with a roster of 14 players, because Lindsey is not in any condition to see the floor this year, and he admitted as much.

This season is nothing more than a thank-you to Lindsey for his service by allowing him to get one last year's paycheck as an NBA player. That's it.

Are you serious? Hunter has certainly lost a step and I'd hate to have to rely on him, but come on. There is no way you can say Murray is a better defender, not even at this point. You couldn't pay Flip to take a charge. You can argue who is the better player, but I don't think there is any question Hunter is the better defender.

I think Michael Curry is a better defender than Lindsey right now. he certainly looks like he's in better shape.

Well, I haven't seen a game this year so I can't comment on that. But, last year Hunter was defenitely the better defender of the two for sure.

watching him in preseason was sad. The guy looks like he hasn't worked out a day in 2 years. He's pudgy as fuck.

he hit a few jumpers, but he looked like he couldn't beat Nazr in a footrace.

I think having the worst playoff shooter of all time doesn't help us somehow.
with Murray right on his tail at a whopping 32 percent fg %.

a what, 15 year vet not taking pre season seriously?? uhh, lindsey is mid to late thirties, hes here to be a factor down the stretch, not to fight for his spot against sheldon meija.

Also if you want to say there's a decline in hunter's defense, fair enough. But Murray hasnt proven to be a better defender yet. He reminds me of larry hughes, good hands for steal, but porous defense overall. On defense in a clutch situation i'd still take Hunter over Murray.

with Murray right on his tail at a whopping 32 percent fg %.

sigh.....

a what, 15 year vet not taking pre season seriously?? uhh, lindsey is mid to late thirties, hes here to be a factor down the stretch, not to fight for his spot against sheldon meija.

...if he was here to be a factor at any point, he wouldn't be going on the George Foreman diet...

He's not here to be a player. he said so himself. He's doing it for the paycheck. If you had followed the team over the last month, you'd know that.

I will say that Lindsey's shot was on at the Oakland U. scrimmage, but he was looking older than his 36 years.

I will say that Lindsey's shot was on at the Oakland U. scrimmage, but he was looking older than his 36 years.

it was on during preseason too. Didn't change the fact he was waddling down the floor...

No love for this effort, I see.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AiPKxqGxiBpcuNSche7UHXOQvLYF?gid=200 7111409

You are all very petty.

i bet if we'd just give him a chance he'd do that every night.

Not sure who is saying that.

I'm just saying keeping him is better than cutting or trading him for nothing.

I'm sorry but Flip Murray and consistency don't go together at all, imo.

I'd love to get a longer-lasting option in exchange for Flip's play.

Just because I like a player doesn't mean I wouldn't want to trade them or otherwise move them along. I felt the same way about Delfino after his injury... give him a chance to shine, and trade him when his value is at its peak. I'd love to wangle a protected first round pick or longer-term player out of this.

If you want to keep him beyond this year, tell me how much he's worth and how much the Pistons should pay him. :)

I don't think he's worth much to us beyond this year. Assuming Stuckey is ready for 20-25 minutes of backup SG/PG some time this year, Flip has no role. Next year I'd like to let Hunter go, Flip will be gone, and bring in a vet PG as your 3rd PG to replace Hunter. Someone in his mold (solid defender and passer but not really a scorer), but younger.

If we can get a 1st rounder for him, do it (once Stuckey is back in the mix). If not, I'd rather just keep him as insurance thru the year.

why do you guys (who think we need to hold on to him for his trade value) suppose murray picked up his 1.6 million dollar option when he knew he'd be getting very little pt?

because Joe D sent gunmen to his home

I don't think he's worth much to us beyond this year. Assuming Stuckey is ready for 20-25 minutes of backup SG/PG some time this year, Flip has no role. Next year I'd like to let Hunter go, Flip will be gone, and bring in a vet PG as your 3rd PG to replace Hunter. Someone in his mold (solid defender and passer but not really a scorer), but younger.
Yeah, I'd like to get Chris Duhon too.

why do you guys (who think we need to hold on to him for his trade value) suppose murray picked up his 1.6 million dollar option when he knew he'd be getting very little pt?

Not sure if it is intentional or not, but I think you are confusing the issue here.

What Murray's value was on the open market this past offseason and what is value is today to the Pistons are two totally different discussions.

but do you think it has changed? i dont. whats changed?

I must be the biggest Flip Murray hater on this board, because this tool needs to go. I can't stand him. He's a mental midget. High schoolers have a better basketball IQ than him.

Why does he feel the need to take a shot at least once every three posessions? And why is it him taking the final shot of the quater whenever he's on the floor?

Fuck Flip. I'd rather roll with Afflalo when Stucky gets back.

i think flip should only play when a starter is injured and never play when the starters are healthy.

If only he could understand he is not the manchild born of Jordan and Kobe and Zeke and....

i think flip should only play when a starter is injured and never play when the starters are healthy.
Or never play ever.

a streaky shooter with mediocre size, mediocre D, over dribbles, and hogs the ball doesnt have much value in this league. we could replace him in a minute if we could ever get rid of him.

Wow, I love how all the papers write about Max's double-double, but reading that stat sheet was the first time I heard about Flip's.

I think he's solid insurance in case anything happens, but if we can get some value for him make the trade. Don't give him away for practically nothing (no trading him for a second round pick from a team picking in the mid-late round) but if we get a solid offer for him (a teams mid to late first or early second) then make the deal. Worst comes to worst, he plays out the year and leaves. Waiving him is just stupid because we don't need the roster spot and we'd waive Dupree before him anyway (then again, Dupree has had a strange way of sticking around, maybe he's got dirt on Joe)

I think Flip Murray should play if and only if one starting guard has been in a twelve-bus pileup and is trapped under the wreckage, and all of our bench guards were in the other buses.

Are you sure we shouldnt just sign some scrubs off the street first, Swami?

Are you sure we shouldnt just sign some scrubs off the street first, Swami?
Well, what do you call Flip Murray?

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/basketball/nba/blog/2007/11/van_gundy_backs_isiah_says_dol.html


Another interesting point from the Van Gundy interview. I loved how he took Pistons reserve Flip Murray to task for piling on the Knicks with his quote the other night that they “looked like they didn’t want to compete.”

“Let me start with Flip Murray,” Van Gundy said. “How about this? Don’t hide behind Tayshaun Prince, Chauncey Billups and those guys that led them to a blowout and then you come out and kill the Knicks. Now if Chauncey Billups wants to kill the Knicks, if Tayshaun Prince, if Rasheed Wallace, Rip Hamilton, if they want to kill the Knicks, that’s one thing, But for Flip Murray to take that pot shot at other NBA players, I think is uncalled for.”

Yes!

I can't image too many things better than a Flip Murray/Jeff Van Gundy rivalry.

Sounds like Jeff wants a second coaching stint in NYC, though I think Tom Izzo is the perfect man for the Knicks job.

I'm glad we have Flip Murray only since Stuckey went down. Flip Murray was injury insurance that we got to cash in on, IMO. Once Stuckey comes back, I want to see more Stuckey/Afflalo/Hayes building chemistry together. Flip Murray and Ronald Dupree can have dunk contests during warm ups.

Anyone else notice that Flip kinda fucks over the young guys maybe on purpose. Take more shots in garbage time, keep the ball out of their hands. When Stuckey gets back, hopefully he can get Flip Murray further pushed out.

Such vitriol, you'd think the guy pissed in your lemonade or something.

Let's see if Stuckey dribbles off his foot repeatedly when he comes back and I will decide who I like better.

Such vitriol, you'd think the guy pissed in your lemonade or something.
No, but he'd piss on himself realizing that they rather have Lindsey Hunter on the court. [smilie=blaha.gif]

Hunter=:cogent: Not in my book, but just a fact at the moment.

Let's see if Stuckey dribbles off his foot repeatedly when he comes back and I will decide who I like better.
Well if thats all he has to do to win you over, then its done.

Let's see if Stuckey dribbles off his foot repeatedly when he comes back and I will decide who I like better.


Big Swami, you're on thin ice.

Anyone else notice that Flip kinda fucks over the young guys maybe on purpose. Take more shots in garbage time, keep the ball out of their hands. When Stuckey gets back, hopefully he can get Flip Murray further pushed out.

That's how he's always played. He plays 1 on 5 and passes only as a last resort. He's a talentless Jerry Stackhouse.

:mccosky:

Q . Do you think the Pistons are still looking to tweak their roster?

A . I wouldn't say looking to, because that implies Dumars is beating the bushes looking to make a trade. That isn't true. Dumars, as he always does, keeps his eyes and ears open for anything that might improve his team. But I don't think there is any urgency to make a trade.

The team is playing well despite not being at full strength all that much. The guys who were supposedly on the trade block -- Nazr Mohammed and Flip Murray -- have both been solid contributors thus far.

Stay tuned on that, though, because Rodney Stuckey could be back in a couple of weeks and that's going to alter the rotation. Stuckey will eventually be getting 20 to 25 minutes a night, so somebody is going to lose their minutes.

Most likely, that will be Murray. That's going to be a tough pill for him to swallow, being that he's in a contract year and he's played very well. It could be that, to ease whatever tension Stuckey's return causes, Dumars might look to move Murray.

But none of that is going on right now.

That's how he's always played. He plays 1 on 5 and passes only as a last resort. He's a talentless Jerry Stackhouse.
daaaaayyyum

I want Stuckey taking nearly all the Flip and Hunter minutes when he gets back, with what's leftover going to Afflalo. Those two should only play if A: Someone is having an extremely off game (in which case it would be a miracle that FlipS would realize someone is having an off game and sit them) or B: There is an injury that shortens the guard rotation.

He better not even see the floor at all when Stucko gets back.
why? outside of you hating him, tell me what he did wrong since coming back. Unlike murray he looks to get our bigs involved. And honestly his stroke looks average his shot, which is good enough as long as he keeps driving to the paint and dishing as a first option..

No, but he'd piss on himself realizing that they rather have Lindsey Hunter on the court. [smilie=blaha.gif]

Hunter=:cogent: Not in my book, but just a fact at the moment.
Hunter wouldn't be out there for his own stats. I think if we were playing him at the point in garbage time, he'd be looking to get the ball to the young guys to develop them. He realizes he's not the future of this team and he's already resigned himself to helping out however he's needed.

I'd rather just see neither of them getting minutes.

Hunter wouldn't be out there for his own stats. I think if we were playing him at the point in garbage time, he'd be looking to get the ball to the young guys to develop them. He realizes he's not the future of this team and he's already resigned himself to helping out however he's needed.
Exactly! I agree with this and think Hunter should play with that in mind.

But if one of them has to at PG, i'd rather it be Hunter getting the scraps.

Before I get on board with this...

So he should never shoot then, right?

Developing Hunter as a backup PG is a waste of time.

Stuckey should play as many of those available minutes as possible.

Only if he's WIDE open, to keep the defense honest. He should never try to force a shot, but if you're trying to drive the lane and kick it out, you have to actually drive and shoot every once in a while or they'll just start guarding against the pass.

Just, for Christ's sake, not often!

Developing Flip as a backup PG is just as much of a waste of time. That's why I say neither of them should see floor time.

I pegged FlipM as Starbury-lite moreso than Stack.

It's comical how much y'all hate Murray.

The guy has been productive and has helped out big time with Stuckey out. Even our idiot beat writers and the Pistons PR staff has taken notice.

Agree but I don't think Hunter is in there to be "developed."

I know you hate Lindsey because his lack of offense and his poor offensive decisions. But when he's in there for short stints (which when Stucky comes back I think will be the case) he is a spark plug. He ignites backcourt defensive surges and gets the intensity up, much like JMax does for the frontcourt. And while his shooting sucks, he still looks to play team ball.

On the flip side (no pun intended), Murray is selfish. Can he score? Yes. Sometimes he can score many points in a short period of time. But if we're talking about developing a backup point guard, Flip should be shot. I want you to watch the game tomorrow when Flip is in, and tell me how many times he looks to work the ball around instead of looking to see if his shot is there first. His game is one-on-one, which is the exact opposite of how this team works. He might put up 20 points in a game, but those 20 points will generally come in garbage time. My absolute biggest problem with Flip is this: when it's garbage time and all of our second stringers are in (Flip, Afflalo, Hayes, Amir and Nazi), it's the Flip Murray and Nazr Mohammed show. Flip wants to get the points and plays 1 on 1 the entire time. If the ball gets passed into the post it's generally to Nazr, and he'll do the patented "Nazr dropstep - get stripped - fast break the other way" move. Garbage time is actually good for our young guys - not for watching the Flip Murray show.

Stucky is the answer. If he's as good as he looked, he could get a lot of minutes as a big pg/small sg, and be able to run an offense. He already has a better basketball IQ than Flip.



Sorry that was really long winded.

Developing Murray as a backup PG means we might be able to trade him for something useful come deadline time.

It's comical how much y'all hate Murray.

The guy has been productive and has helped out big time with Stuckey out. Even our idiot beat writers and the Pistons PR staff has taken notice.
I don't truly hate the guy. I think he's a decent basketball player. He just plays too selfishly. I don't want to see him playing PG for us unless its an emergency. If they put him in at SG with Stuckey running the point, I guess I would be ok with that. Just as long as Stuckey understands that if he passes it to Murray, its more likely than not that he won't get the ball back.

Developing Hunter as a backup PG is a waste of time.
you can't with a str8 face say that we are "developing" an old as dirt career backup PG. nothing to develop, unlike flip he'll know his roll and fill it. i think he's been around long enough for that.

Murray is a scorer, and not a good facilitator, no doubt.

However, from watching him play over the past 10+ years, it seems to me that Lindsay Hunter's the same guy, only he's worse at it.

I see and appreciate LH's defense, but he's a situational, gimmick player that should be used very, very sparingly (to change tempo or help stop a run), IMO.

I think a Murray (SG)/Stuckey(PG) backcout off the bench could be quite effective/explosive, that is, if Stuckey is what we are being told he is.

Murray should be the 2nd guard off the bench, IMO.

If Stuckey is versatile enough to play both positions then I'm okay limiting Murray's minutes if Stuckey plays at the same time as either Rip or CBill.

Flip Murray is a scorer... on a team that doesn't need that mentality. Flip can create his own shot better than probably everybody on this team. No one is saying that. But Flip has no idea how to get an offense started. The Pistons work as a team, with rotatable parts. The team has a different look to it when he's on the floor. Yes it's good to change pace, but not to that extent.

That's why the Pistons record is so bad when Chauncey is out. Flip can put up just as many points as Chauncey with the same amount of minutes, probably more. But he doesn't run the team well. Even from the SG spot, he doesn't look to pass. He looks to see if there's a way he can get to the lane, and he'll pass if he gets stuck.

I agree with you that Lindsey should be used sparingly. I just think that Flip should be used even more sparingly.

I agree with you that Lindsey should be used sparingly. I just think that Flip should be used even more sparingly.
And not as the PG!

Stuckey showed in the preseason that he can get his own shot, but he always looked to pass. I know that was just preseason but I'm hoping once he gets himself worked back into everything that's how he'll be able to play. I just hope everyone remembers how long its been since he's played ball and doesn't jump on him if he doesn't come out of the gates firing on all cylinders.

I'm not really a fan of Lindsey per se, and I don't want him taking anyone's minutes.

However, Glenn, I haven't yet heard you address FM's selfish play or his wild inconsistency. Pistons don't need any selfishness and inconsistency at PG any more than the Knicks do.

I think a lot of the "selfishness" we see in Flip (M) is coaching, frankly.

He was signed to be a scorer, so he's got a scorer's mentality.

When he knows what is expected of him (i.e. as seen when filling in for Chauncey recently) he does a decent job from what I have seen. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AiPKxqGxiBpcuNSche7UHXOQvLYF?gid=200 7111409

I'm glad they didn't have Jackson that game.

You're right... but look in the turnover column in that box score.

Hunter wouldn't be out there for his own stats. I think if we were playing him at the point in garbage time, he'd be looking to get the ball to the young guys to develop them. He realizes he's not the future of this team and he's already resigned himself to helping out however he's needed.

I agree %100. Hunter plays unselfish ball, which is perfect for mop up time with the young guys. Murray sees it as his opportunity to establish his own resume (which he should), but doesn't seem to care about the rest of the team at all.

Chauncey has an Ast/to ratio of 3.7
Flip's for that game is 4.

flip murry is one ofthe worst over dribblers in the league. not an exageration at all.

hes worthless without the ball in his hands.

if the pistons were a crap team, i'd be fine with him getting 30 minutes agame, cuz he's got more skill than most and i'd be fine with taking the long shot that he gets better.

not here, he'll never fit well with the role we need him in.

hes not going to suddenly jump in value. he is what he is, a journey man end of the bench guy who every so often will look good on the stat sheet.

Since we have bastardized Kstat's thread, I'm gonna try and bump some of this over to the Murray thread.

Chauncey has an Ast/to ratio of 3.7
Flip's for that game is 4.

Actually 3.

He was signed to be a scorer, so he's got a scorer's mentality.


So why make him a backup PG? How many teams have wasted their time trying to do that? He filled in for Ray Allen very nicely in Seattle, putting up big scoring numbers. The Cavs thought he'd be a nice PG, well he's not. He doesn't play team ball, period. Sure, he might get some assists some nights, but eventually you will when you are the primary ball handler. Stack got 4-5 assists most nights and you'd never mistake him for a passer. If this was a team full of scrubs, I could handle Flip being a chucker. But this isn't the Hawks, and he's not Kobe or Wade either. I've seen a few Lakers games lately and even Kobe makes him look like a ball hog (and he's passing to Vlad, Vujicic and a bunch of scrubs that miss most of their shots).

Flip belongs on a team with marginal talant as instant offense off the bench. That's it.

You're right... but look in the turnover column in that box score.


The 12 shots in 41 minutes is what I was referring to, actually, in reference to him being "selfish".

We don't know what Flipper is telling him to do when he sends him out there most nights.

In the box score that I posted, we know what he was told about his role.

When he's coming off the bench to spell Rip or Chauncey, Saunders may be telling him to "go out there and score" for all we know.

Developing Murray as a backup PG means we might be able to trade him for something useful come deadline time.

I think spending time on developing Stuckey is better suited to long and short term success than developing Murray's PG skills. Supposing he became an ok PG, what is Flip going to command? A second round pick? That won't help us any more than Stuckey getting that PT.

Actually 3.

Damnit.

< =:dismissed:

I think spending time on developing Stuckey is better suited to long and short term success than developing Murray's PG skills. Supposing he became an ok PG, what is Flip going to command? A second round pick? That won't help us any more than Stuckey getting that PT.
Until Stuckey starts playing, it's a moot point.

well, then I'd rather have Flip out there with the starters and Hunter with the young guys in garbage time. I thought that was what the issue was about (who to play with the young guys in garbage time).

This is where the discussion starter:


Anyone else notice that Flip kinda fucks over the young guys maybe on purpose. Take more shots in garbage time, keep the ball out of their hands. When Stuckey gets back, hopefully he can get Flip Murray further pushed out.

The 12 shots in 41 minutes is what I was referring to, actually, in reference to him being "selfish".
Actually as selfish as he is, he knows better than to take shots away from starters. He picks on the bench mostly and garbage minutes. My problem is that he does nothing i'd care to keep when he plays 20 minutes a game. 41 minutes of Flip murray isnt even a legit template to measure what we are rating him on. Which is his bench value and production overall.

well, then I'd rather have Flip out there with the starters and Hunter with the young guys in garbage time. I thought that was what the issue was about (who to play with the young guys in garbage time).
absolutely is part of it. Stuckey is getting minutes. no way out of that. so the next in line will dominate garbage minutes.

Ronald Murray averages the second most shot attempts per 48 minutes on this squad (18.7 to Rip's 20.8) but equates to only 5th in ppg per 48 (barely surpassing hayes for the 5th slot because he shoots more than hayes who shoots at a much higher percentage). That means a few things:

1. Others are much more productive in fewer shot attempts and should be getting the ball more
2. He shoots too much (mainly from the perimiter)
3. He isn't shooting a high percentage (that milwaukee game really helped his shooting %)
4. Isn't getting to the free throw line (mainly because he's shooting from the perimiter)

This from a guy that's the primary ball-handler with the second unit but not necessarily the designated gunner (jarvis hayes has that role as he should)

Others that are more productive with their touches aren't getting the ball because flip is too busy dribbling the clock down and forcing up a god awful shot or turning it over (Oh yeah, he also leads the team in TOs per 48).

I hated playing with guys like flip that don't run an offense and never passed and I hate watching it now. His style of play is an even greater detriment when you only have 24 seconds to get off a shot. He really has no idea how this game is played.

He doesn't know how to play basketball other than creating opportunities for his own shots. If they are going in it's great but that's a rarity.

I'm sick of watching him run down the floor, chuck up a bad shot or dribble between his legs wasting time and then watch Afflalo or Johnson hang their head because they ran hard down the floor and then never see the ball. It also leads to others taking on this mentality in that if they ever are lucky to see the ball they may be more prone to take a forced shot because if they pass it back they may never see it again or the shot clock is down to 5 seconds. Watch Jarvis Hayes when he's teamed with Murray. He never passes it back.

The bench is also less productive from a scoring stand point because they never see the rock and their statistical contributions are tainted.

Even if stuckey has that shoot-first mentality at least you know he'll get rewarded from time to time with trips to the free throw line which should make him more productive.

Did I mention I hate watching Flip Murray play basketball?

Great post. I also hated playing with those types of players. I'd literally walk down the floor to the other end after passing them the ball some times.

Well thought out, for sure, but I maintain my belief that on a 82 game basis, he's a better option than Lindsay Hunter.

For 30 minutes a night, yes.

For 10 minutes a night, no. We have weapons, Hunter will use them.


Using the weapon analogy for a moment, suppose both of them are soldiers stranded behind enemy lines and find themselves in a ammo bunker.

Murray only knows how to use the bazooka, but has good speed.

Hunter knows how to use all the weapons, but has been non fatally wounded (but enough to slow him down).

Who is getting out alive?

For 30 minutes a night, yes.

For 10 minutes a night, no. We have weapons, Hunter will use them.


Using the weapon analogy for a moment, suppose both of them are soldiers stranded behind enemy lines and find themselves in a ammo bunker.

Murray only knows how to use the bazooka, but has good speed.

Hunter knows how to use all the weapons, but has been non fatally wounded (but enough to slow him down).

Who is getting out alive?

Dwyane Wade?

Only if medics come running in with a stretcher for him.

Dwyane Wade?
.......ends the war with only a scout knife?

And rides off on a bicycle.

I love that Glenn used the beat writers as defense. How was that not called out sooner?

I love that Glenn used the beat writers as defense. How was that not called out sooner?

I laughed as I typed that.

I was trying to point out that they are idiots and even they notice that Murray has value.

It's a weak point, no doubt, lol.

Antonia Daniels, who was playing for the injured Gil Arenas, went down and will stay down for a while.

Will they look at Flip Murray?

I hope Joe doesn't do anything to help another potential Eastern playoff team without a significant return.

You know he won't take a player back for Murray ($$) so let's hope he doesn't give him to the Wiz for a measley 2nd round pick, get the 1st, Joe.

You know he won't take a player back for Murray ($$) so let's hope he doesn't give him to the Wiz for a measley 2nd round pick, get the 1st, Joe.


Man, a 1st round pick would be a high price for a band-aid (and a dirty band-aid at that). If and when Stuckey is good to go, I would grab a 2nd for a guy they'll and we'll bury on a bench come playoffs.

I'll take a second from someone in the West (only when Stuckey is back), but to be honest, I'd much rather Joe hold onto Murray along with the other expirings just in case a nice player is available for those contracts that could really help.

I'd hold onto flip now that Nazrs gone so theres no more nazr and flip for haywood type deal.

We either ship him off by the deadline or keep his 4th quarter heroics